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Alright, let's get on with the show then. Waiting down upon the underworld to smash gangland comes a friend of the unfortunate enemy of criminal. In a serious, all powerful character, a problem to the police, but a crusade of a law. Hey everybody, welcome to the else with Exchange I'm Sal.
And I'm Joel. Yeah, that's right, welcome back to the show. This is a comic book and comic book ancillary show where we take a topic from about an hour and hash it out. Today's topic is, incidentally, comic book documentaries.
You may not know it, but there are actually quite a few, like, cerebral films that delve into the industry or aspects of the industry. They're out there for public consumption, by the way. Oh yeah, very cool. Great topic idea that was Joel's pick.
He was like, hey, let's talk about these. And I'm like, I don't know if it's seen enough of these. And then I realize, like, no, I've actually seen most of these. And I want to talk about not just like the fact that there are comic book documentaries, maybe talk about some of our favorite documentaries, but more where they're going and kind of like the future of the comic book documentary and they're impacted on the industry itself.
I like that. Yeah, thank you. Before we do jump into it too deeply, I want to talk about how this show is sponsored more or less by you, actually, by participating in the thing called Super Chats. If you drop a little scratch, you get to participate in the show live as it happens.
Ask a question, make a comment, use the Super Chats, and we'll be able to read it here on the show. We'll be able to read it here on the show. We'll be able to read it here on the show. It's not going to be a thing where I'm like, just hit the brakes.
I used to do that. We hit the brakes and we'd never go anywhere. So we try to make it a little more organic, but make it more conversational. Like Adam Esumo here, who's just dropping some phones helping us out very much.
Thank you. Keith Blackwell just wanted to ask a random question. Do you think Peter Parker will wear vans or converse? Oh, I don't know enough about shoes.
I'm not enough of a sneaker head to properly answer this question. I will answer it as a Spider-Man fan. And as a shoe connoisseur, I will say that vans are cheaper than converse. So if he would go with vans, Peter Parker would be practical.
Simply go with the cheapest ones. The problem is, though, the investment converse are more durable than vans. Vans fall right the hell apart as I have experienced. Like they didn't last me more than six months.
I'm seeing a whole new side of you. Sally had no idea. You were so knowledgeable about shoes. I respect this.
I used to be a new balanced guy. You know, so I never looked back. But then I realized so many of my peers were wearing shoes that complimented their outfits. And I was like, well, I'm not Mr.
Rogers here. I'm not going to swap shoes every time I do something different. I did have a pair of dress shoes. And so I was like, well, I guess that makes sense.
So I dropped some cash on some vans. It was a waste of my money because those things fall apart, like nobody's business. Plus then you get some Kevin Smith allegory. Kevin was very into vans for a while.
It would be really funny if Spider-Man chose to wear DCs. Right? Nowadays, I would assume he would go. I think he'd probably go vans just because they're cheaper.
And he's not a long-term planner. No, never. If he was choosing between the two of them, Converse probably makes the most sense, because they're more durable, even though they're costable to more. But, you know, I mean, if I were him, I'd just like ask Reed to whip up a pair of like dark-colored, unstable molecule sneakers.
Absolutely. So that's what I would do. I feel like this is a topic in and of itself now. What consumer products?
What are our favorite heroes use and why? Exactly. And as I said, I'd help in this out. Thank you very much.
As if. So yeah, jump in and do them. We want to talk a little bit about comic book documentaries. It's funny.
I was in preparation for the show. I was taking a look at the Robert Kirkman's Secret History of Comics, which isn't so much a movie is it a series. Yes. And one of the newer ones too.
This is only from 2017. That's right. By the way, Joel, you made an observation about any of the ones we're going to mention. They're all pretty much available for you right now.
Yep. Just go on YouTube and look up these names, and you'll be able to find them. Yep. Oh, yeah.
And it's worth your time. It's worth a Google. Yeah, right? Well, not even just when you're done with this episode, just type it in into the search bar.
Boom, you're ready to go. But yeah, as I understand it, well, six-part documentary, I guess, or series. It's funny, the first episode that I caught was the history of the Stanley Jack Irvie rivalry. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And for me, I'm like, how does it do it with Robert Kirkman? Like, is it just Kirkman producing the show? Is it Kirkman like, you know? He's landed his name to it and his clout.
He doesn't actually show up in it. I mean, I think he shows up a little in some of them, but no, it's not like he's hosting it or anything. It's just his name attached to it, which geez. That goes to show how much walking dead money and clout he has that he can just attach his name to it.
Yeah, right? He's like a broken lizard or a national lampoon. I would go with a national lampoon over broken lizard just because broken lizard, not so much a really strong brand. I mean, they used it like it was a thing.
I remember when Superture was came out and they were like broken lizards, Superdure. I'm like, okay, I don't know what either of those things are. And you know, the more of those movies like Club Dread and Slam and Salmon came out, I'm like, okay, you may want to just retire that name because letting people know that that's who made these movies is only going to be an indicator that it's probably going to suck. Well, I like about Kirkman lending his name to this.
I think it's something no one actually talked about when these are coming out and that is, oh, wow, Kirkman is independently wealthy in the comic book industry. He's not beholden to Marvel or DC. So when he talks about these things, this documentary series doesn't have to be biased one way or another and try and make one company look better than the other. And I think that's something truly unique about this because all the other ones, you kind of know who was putting up the money for this or who they didn't want to take off.
Oh, you mean Disney legend Stanley and what any documentary about Stan and Jack might be? They're both by the way, quote unquote, Disney legends now, which might or they're not like the Disney legend moniker isn't like, they've always been working for Disney and they're always been about, no, it's just, it's a title. Yeah. Like anyone who creates something for Disney that is like influential or important or is acquired by Disney, they could look at that title.
If I worked for Maker back in the day and made a really good YouTube video, could I be a Disney legend? Right. That's probably the thanks for the honesty. Sal, I appreciate that.
No, no, I don't think PewDiePie is a Disney legend and he started out with Maker 2. That's true. And he would be if anyone was. So yeah, but it's funny because Robert Kirkman, Secret History of Comics, the first episode is about Stan and Jack basically forming Marvel Comics and the humble beginnings thereof.
And this will kind of like, we're going to talk about a little bit about like what makes up a documentary and what the subject matters can be about and what we kind of look for in these documentaries with this one, obviously not a movie, it's a series. So like they can really like get into it a little bit more specifically. They can take one topic, hash it out for like half an hour to an hour. They get a lot of like pundits and personalities.
They ask them a lot of questions about it and then they kind of like can select what elements they want to use to kind of promote their narrative. Incidentally, like you said, you know, Kirkman has no vested interest in like preserving the integrity of the Stan and Jack relationship or making Stan or Jack look better than the other. And certainly there are enough people within the documentary and of course within the industry to work for both sides, which they do. If you watch it, it's actually kind of fascinating to see like who is absolutely like on Team Jack and who's on Team Stan.
Everyone has their cam. Or at the very least who is like kind of like I don't really know, I always kind of just assumed it was Stan or Jack. But the personalities they got in there are pretty interesting. The ones that are most telling are the ones who were there.
Jim Schuder's there and he's talking about how like he saw Stan and Jack at like a function. This is going back a few years, but not like as many years as you think. Like it was in the 70s, it was more like in the 90s or the 2000s where he talks about this encounter where like Jack Kirby was invited. It must have been the early 90s because Jack Kirby passed away in 97.
So but anyway in the 90s or 80s where like Stan and Jack or like we're both kind of something that's a function that Schuder invited them both to. And Stan like embraced him, chatted with him and then invited him to like work together on something. A story I had never heard of. No.
And Jack's wife being like F no and they left. Not Jack Kirby saying no. Jack's wife saying no. And then too with him just kind of like leaving the party.
The woman whose personality would be the basis for big barter for those who are wondering. Which yeah, yeah, makes sense. It was really telling and by the way if some of these documentaries are fantastic for giving you insights, not just into the industry but insights into like ghosts from the past. There's a story in there about how Stan and about how Jack was being interviewed on the radio on a New York show and then Stanley called into the radio show.
Like he would do. Right. And the two of them would like hash it out kind of. And it's fascinating to hear and I like you know from that I would follow to like get the actual transcription or the very least listen to the whole thing.
It's way more interesting to hear these two talk to each other because you can tell they hadn't for years. And I think Stan you know being a businessman where as Jack was more of like an artist and not to disparage one of the other by the way. And you need both those things to succeed. Well yeah.
And we'll segue that into another episode another series that I saw recently or saw years ago and then remind myself of recently that says that whole thing that embodies that whole concept. But to hear Jack and Stan talk like you could tell Stan was like I'm not going to let Jack control the narrative of this interview even if the interview was about him. Which is so kind of like shrewd and horrible but it's also kind of like funny and like Stan like very much so. But yeah.
But that's fascinating. It only goes deeper. That's the thing you get this like bomb of an episode where you're like holy shit like this is kind of like a great kind of like fair handed depiction of both. Oh yeah.
And now we'll go into further discussion you know and it's and from those you get a lot of really interesting stuff. There's several other ones in this series that I quite enjoyed. City of Heroes which was the fourth episode doesn't actually talk about the game. City of Heroes it talks about Marvel's connection to New York and you know how 9-11 changed a lot of stories and everything.
That I thought was a really good one because I feel not a lot of people really talk about that how Marvel was born in New York and how it's always been about New York. Yeah. Now it's funny because like being from Jersey and having family who are all from New York. I knew that growing up and what I learned much later on in life was like that's not how the rest of the world operates.
You know like for a lot of people like you know they'll never get to go see the Ghostbusters Firehouse. They'll never walk Bleaker Street and this was kind of like a world that I was intimately familiar with and took great you know kind of like advantage of but this documentary or that episode in particular does a great job of just doing like it is intrinsically New York. It's why like when DC left and went to Burbank people were like talking about like will Marvel do that too and like how will that change everything. God I hope not.
I mean Marvel it's funny Marvel and Marvel Studios couldn't be more disparate and different. No really not. And it's funny because like the best way to kind of like think about it is in terms of like this like Marvel Studios is like Iron Man's house in the movie. Oh it's Blitz and Glamour it's pretty it's warm it's California.
Marvel Comics is Peter Parker I'm in the mud I'm in the dirt it's cheap. It's raining. If you've ever been to Marvel Comics which I have it is not as glamorous as you might imagine no really top publishers and comics would or should be like I've actually been a couple of publishers in New York and I've been to one yeah the same. And that one was smaller than Marvel but like I imagined that Marvel doesn't look too dissimilar.
The only assumption I make is that there were fewer comics at Marvel Comics or like other publishers but yeah it's just interesting to see like that poll like a segment of that show being dedicated to like this identity. You like really don't think about unless you're either like part of it or you're outside of it. Yeah totally. The other one I really liked was the color of comics and I'm sure I've mentioned this before.
This one talks about the struggle of African Americans in the comic book industry for representation and eventually the big focal piece of this episode is of course milestone and how it took the world by storm and changed everything and wow what a great happy story they have with all the remaining people who worked at milestone but oh boy does this episode leave a bitter taste in your mouth at the end when you realize that Ood Wing McDuffie's widow and a stakeholder are suing all these guys now because they went behind her back to try and get another milestone deal put together. I'm like oh I fell in love with you with this story and you guys and now I hear this and now I think you suck. Yeah well I'm amazed that they actually went ahead and like made that episode or that it's like that they went that deep with it because like milestone is important and instrumental but it's also kind of like blink if you miss it in terms of like the huge like you know kind of like scope of everything which is sad and tragic but of course mired in legal problems and DC acquisition like that's kind of why that's the only reason why you don't think about it or hear about it anymore is because it's like it's been buried and that's the part of it too where they're like look you know people will try and tell you about sales or whatever but in fact you know we were Kings of Comic Con when this came out this is the biggest thing and it's wrong that the comic book culture forgot this moment in time and it's like look if you don't remember your past how will you know where you're going how will you learn from it no exactly it's funny I was thinking about apropos of these what's called there was a documentary series not a really documentary series more like an episode from a channel called complex who did a series called blueprint which did a third episode it's just about McFarland and it's from his perspective and it's just a new Farland it's not terribly well researched but the point isn't really from the host perspective it's just easy like the conduit to force McFarland to talk right right need to like prod to get but it's a fascinating insight into McFarland's perspective and how he was kind of like we were these like the way he'd tell it by the way the beauty of watching a spectrum of documentaries is that you get all these different vantage points oh yeah part of the importance of if you're going to get into documentaries is watching many of them from different perspectives is that you get those perspectives so you can kind of like balance out what the truth in reality really is it's true yeah make it up for yourself right like if you watch the blueprint episode you would probably assume based on how the host and the creators of this episode operate that McFarland created image comics and that spawn was like the first book to come out from there and that it was just like that spawn that spawn is basically image comics right which of course we know isn't exactly true ironically Robert Kirkman's Secret History of Comics they do an image comics episode that is very well done absolutely there's another image comics series out there and it might actually be from that same thing but I only watched it from like a perspective where they like strum all together it's this whole right of image comics but it was but if you watch that and McFarland's you're like I see exactly what's going on here mmm like McFarland would want you because he's funny how he's like a big booster of Jack Kirby and a big like yeah you know Shout or down or of Stanley and yet couldn't be more like Stanley in some respects and the this is my version of the story now I am I am the artist yeah like I control the narrative I did this I did that like I created this and like I mean just the Neil Gaiman writes alone it's kind of like I can't believe you're talking about creators rights and then you dealt with and you didn't pay game and that always blows me away I'm like what a massive hypocrite you are right and it's like and I respect the man he's got a lot of interesting ideas that's part of the reason why you got to watch that episode by the way Spider-Man to spawn how time for all the game the biggest comic artists ever you know who McFarland reminds me of two if you were compared to the music industry your mind's me have MC Hammer like you you might not like what I do but I made the cash you have to respect all the cash I made look at my money yeah I mean I like to look at him as kind of like like I mean like obviously image is a group effort and it was spearheaded by the talent of those few people but you know you can't deny McFarland's kind of like bullheadedness made things kind of move it was the perfect storm it was the perfect storm but like and McFarland was just kind of like George or Paul and John at the same time like just this constant bickering with everybody else and this constant like what I mean really like I can replace any like we could like any of you could be replaced and who was Liefeld oh well I felt there is no really good analogy for the Beatles unfortunately like I felt was this person who's just kind of like he got all this money it made him go kind of insane and also he had a big personality and he like was clearly like overshadowed by his contemporaries and like I don't know and then he didn't take his toys and leave like he noted out of the company and by the way you'll learn all these great amazing stories from these documentaries the image I'm gonna get a link for because I'm trying to figure it out but where I felt new that the image founders were having a meeting about him yes so he rented a room this story is amazing next to the room that the founders were using to have the meeting about him and he listened in on the meeting with a glass with a glass against his ear through the door well like they know that shared door like friggin spy movie and then like before the meeting was over he had already entered his resignation so it's like you know you can't fire me I quit yeah but I made an amazing story and you can wear that from from there but anyway that's kind of which I quit like that yeah well you need to know like how that you know you need to get that kind of information first there's a documentary that I saw years ago it's not really a documentary so it's kind of like a fun little series like I don't even know what they'll call it but you remember Stanley's Mutants Monsters and Marvels yes yes it was a little like I remember it came out on VHS that's how old it is oh wow where Kevin Smith kind of spearheaded this whole like I want to interview Stanley and talk to him about like all his contributions at Marvel like like right now because I'm in my 30s and I imagine that anyone older than me is gonna die and kill it at the moment so I get all on film like right now and it's a really talk about perspectives like the you should watch the Robert Kirkman like episode and then watch or before that watch Stanley's Mutants Monsters and Marvels and I might watch the Marvels one first and then the Kirkman one afterwards means a hell of a picture yeah because you're getting this like this image of like the guy himself talking about it from a perspective of time and without any detractors or arguments yeah and so you know you get like kind of like his version of reality and then you get to see like other people's version of reality and you've been kind of like see where the where the Venn diagrams intersecting like oh I think that's kind of close to the truth it's it's the version you get to do when you've outlived all your contemporaries and all your detractors and everything else yeah well but even then like it's funny how Stan was able to kind of like manipulate the narrative well before his passing so that when he was in a position that he was in before he passed he didn't have to do damage control he was literally just like just kind of like resting on it he had enough trouble as it was but like he wasn't like fighting tooth and nail against the Kirby estate or the Ditto estate or like dealing with like douchey reporters like asking a 95 year old man like what he did in 1975 it's literally just like Stan worked he was a workhorse who controlled his own narrative and so that he could you know benefit from it in his in his golden years what was the one again another Stanley documentary it came I think was the last one they did on him before his passing and like they actually like followed him home it was the first time I'd ever actually heard his wife talking like oh his wife is British his wife is the real Peggy Carter okay yeah yeah and also the visual inspiration for when Stacy went oh I think it was Ramita he said like draw you know draw John that's nice is it John I'm pretty sure it is but yeah it's you'll learn all this fun stuff oh man I just I that the Stanley thing reminded me do you remember that great bill finger documentary that came out like just a couple years ago that's right I feel that one's gotten buried which is sad because that was the history of Bill finger doing so much only to get buried I can't believe that that took so long to come and then it's such this ultimate vindication oh yeah no well you've been I've been hearing about bill finger in his importance and contribution to Batman and comics I think I started hearing about it in the 90s mm and which is of course when I started in comics but like I heard rumblings about it you know like whenever I talk like Bob can't read Batman like older people be like this not really and I'm like well then who else is there there's no other name and they're like yeah it's because Bob came like screwed over this great man and I never really thought about it again until I think like the mid 2000s and and and literally two years ago they're like okay here's this documentary that kind of like perfectly illustrates the deep you know the disbursement of creative work who did what and and how much did Bill finger gets screwed which which you know that like that documentary so good that expands even beyond the realm of comics to just any art form in general where it's like you don't think about the person behind the person who makes your favorite thing and sometimes they never get credit no it's true by the way that is not on you too that's over on Hulu so you can right that was a Hulu exclusive there wasn't again it's been forever since I've seen it got I want to watch it again right now was it a what was it his kid or his grand kid or someone who got it was someone interesting who got it together I don't remember I as I recall I think his kid was like instrumental in helping but I don't think it was anyone no it was a fan that's right they talked to his kid and the kid was like well that's nice that my grandpa could get something like that right thanks he's still dead though yeah that's rough yeah it wasn't like the big happy ending of that that like the last Batman movie whatever it finally had like rated by Bob Kane and Bill finger like yes I'm we started getting credited absolutely well and apparently also it was like it was more than it wasn't so much that it was like the it wasn't like Nimoy's documentary which I think was about no was it Gene Roddenberry a documentary that his son made yes that's right I saw that one too yeah that's a good one but this one was more like there was a book that was written about him the about bill finger that is like five years earlier and so the documentarians were like oh we should make this right right and then like yeah because the book in 2012 then the comic company decided to do something about it in 2015 and then 2017 got the movie and that's why I was like by the time got to the movie I'm like well I mean like I think we've kind of settled we need to say but the documentary is actually a really great 92 minute distillation of what the whole things about very much so and also just a lot of footage and like recordings that you've never heard or seen before of Bob Kane and of everyone else involved absolutely DC at that time yeah yeah I wish we had a list of all these in the description I'm sorry I don't but like just right now yeah really you can listen to this back later these are all really good ones yeah there is one that I need to talk about because like speaking of people who are their own height man and people who like kind of like control their own narrative you recommend this one Grant Morrison talking with gods ah yes I think the person who made this also did inside the mind of Alan Moore this was kind of like a two-fer ah I say see I don't like the Alan Moore one as much as I like the Morrison one because really just Jude Morrison so cosmic man I can listen to talk forever man yeah it's great Morrison is captivating and interesting and insightful mmm this is this is a documentary about Grant Morrison yes I don't really care and I was like so I was actually kind of like amazed at how like demystifying it was for me like you really it's a great if you like love Grant Morrison you're probably gonna enjoy this documentary but like critical of it anyway you'd be like oh yeah it's basically everything you think where it's like yeah you know my parents were spies for peace they were big in the Scottish anti-war movement you know I got sick one time with a really bad fever and red comic books and oh I did a lot of drugs in my adult life and I saw the gods and they told me how the universe worked but I forgot I had to write it down the inside into for me was that Grant Morrison was a kid whose dad was fiercely politically active and like inappropriately used his son to further his political agenda his parents got divorced and that messed him up big time he went to an old boy school as a raging hormonal teenager and it made him crazy and he didn't do any drugs or do anything at this point by the way he literally just like to draw and like and and write and talk about comics because his mom encouraged to read them and then like much later he decided to like try magic yep and not like club magic like he lit some candles instead of you know prayer and then went to sleep and when he woke there was like a portal in front of him and like the blackness of the universe filled with the folds of his brain like okay and we're building universes and the group people taught me how it was doing and that's when he was like oh I'll use the the drugs to like help me you know kind of like answer more questions and get a deeper understand you're like okay and the fact that he's like a real it's like oh my real method writer you know if I'm writing about cross dress I got a cross dress for a little bit if I'm writing about rune magic I got to do nothing but rune magic yeah I was uh it's funny I was there's a great quote and I applied to these kind of situations and it's where people asked Harrison Ford was acting method was you know like what do you do how do you get into character and he said I graduated from the let's pretend school of acting where it's like that's good I don't care about that I don't do like you know I don't need to know you know what it's like to be high to write about being high I remember what was it this is just a tangent but like when John Travolta was playing Vincent Vega and he wanted to know what it was like to be high on heroin but not ruin his life and so he inquired and they said like it's like getting totally drunk like plaster drunk on tequila and sitting in a warm pool which he then did and like warned his family ahead of time like told him to watch him so he didn't drown you know but like so he was able to articulate in that one moment that's like half a second in the movie like I guess you could probably just like how does it feel like well if you're you're immediately getting high I guess like kind of good you're like okay I could probably imagine that like but all right grand but if you really like Grant Morrison like again documentary about Gramp Morrison again though like I would love to see a more even hand documentary about like the Grant Morrison Alan Moore rivalry yeah that would be fun because they touch on it in both actually they talk about it in the Alan Moore one a little bit they talk in this one a little bit but no they don't really go deep into it no I would love to see that because that's a fun rivalry I love how much they both like dislike each other I like watching like really really like pompous people like have a problem with each other it's like shouldn't you two weirdos love each other and that's the thing they're too alike or at least they want to one really wants to be liked by the other and the other like he's like doesn't want to but also can't not talk about it right just fascinating and then there's Mark Malar in there to his apparently friends with both of them and who gets interviewed in both of these movies yeah the other guy is Warren Ellis whose friends with both of them yes yes we're not as much more interested in making fun of them oh yes you sure because that's born Ellis is funny yes a sense of humor exactly that pervades a lot of his work actual oh yeah oh yeah no so you know incidentally you mentioned in search of stethico yes another interesting one and one I think you really need to watch now because he's not with us anymore either yeah that was when he was around it reminded me a lot of that book or that that not that documentary about like basically harassing Bill Waterton I believe was called like in search of the water center change right where it's like so there's this reclusive artist who never wanted to be found and I'm gonna go like try and get look for them yeah and in the in search of stethico one shit who was it who was talking to him who's looking for him it's like some British journalist yeah yeah that's right and he's like I want to talk to stethico because I like Spider-Man comics and that wasn't so much a documentary as well as it was like a TV special yeah yeah yeah you know it's like documentaries the concept of like telling a story that happened in real life using like firsthand accounts and documents is not relegated or limited to the format of like short form or long form or fit it could be like a TV special and in fact like most people interactions first interactions with documentaries for me seem to be like the TV special like yeah this the tonight at 11 like this report about like such and such I mean like every news or like every news outlet does more or less documentary about 60 minutes yeah about this one topic and so the vice news now where that's basically all they do yeah vice is just constant stream of documentaries about any number of topics oh man I watched one just this week on credit card fraud and counterfeit credit cards boy that shit was fascinating it was only five minutes right you said the documentary or like a vice special about like dick pills oh yeah yeah that's like sponsorships coming from dick pills it was so insipid I was like I am so mad at you for sending me this I watched all of it and I was like this is so stupid it really was that's why I had to share it with you I'm like look man I got this rallying around in my head and now like the tape in the ring I need to pass the curse does not want to help me like I was like damn it that sucks like I hate it yep so let's move on you next week we'll talk about dick pills right yeah but yeah no in search to do go by the way the guy gets what he wants at the end but he doesn't get the talk to Dico no nor do they actually answer the question why have you been hiding all these years Steve Dico right and it's like because I'm a libertarian and I believe that I'm being tracked all the time yeah because I'm a grumpy man like yeah haven't you read the question you're either a hundred percent good or a hundred percent evil actually Alan Moore is in that documentary to an Alan Moore makes fun of him for that yes he will because Alan Moore of course like fiercely disagrees with his politics so right that really sticks in Alan Moore is like Alan Moore does like a little poem like me I'm fun oh my god I just remember that yeah way to go more but yeah what was it I guess we talked about that enough but like you mentioned the PBS documentary superheroes in every battle and watching that that was like I think one of the Avengers movies came out and they were trying to tie it in with that so that and that was when I was like oh like I know I've seen that like I've seen actually a lot of these yeah it was a big like four night event like they had one every night and it like tracked the history of comic books from like you know the the Golden Age to like the current movie age like you definitely had a movie bent to it like let's talk about how great these movies are doing and it was hosted by my totally normal man crush Lee I've tried oh yes it was yeah who played saber to so he was the perfect man he was he makes fun of that he was like and I got to be in this movie and everyone hated it but you know I got to be in it hey he clearly likes the shit he's like yeah I totally want to host this even though I was in a bad one yeah yeah well his his good voice it's a very like and that one as much is a very corporate yeah you know oh this is fun documentary that has a lot of the PBS documentaries are but again the production quality on it is really really solid agree that's the thing it's like it looks really good and it's it's like a very I want to say like legit look at our kind of like underfoot industry yeah very much it's like you can show this to your grandma and she'll be like oh maybe I thought wrong of them funny books literally like I had family reached out to me who were like oh like that's what you do that's that's I saw a thing about your about that guy Stan Lee you know you might want to talk to him on your show and I'm like oh yeah I might thanks mom get right on that yeah exactly by the way I found out what that image thing is called the image documentary should check out it's called the image revolution ah 2014 is fascinating it's got like rare video clips it's the story about you know it has that sort of right life held it's fantastic and it gives you a more like oh I see who I see what McFarland was all about okay as a valiant ever had a documentary about them I feel like we're at the point now they've been around long enough and had enough history a valiant actually had a reading rainbow special about them did they really that's awesome yeah LaVar Burton goes to Valiant they pretend like that company did how like worked on comics the way they did you know like there was like a meeting about like what they should do when the latest issue of of Tarak and it was so fake and artists were in the studio like we're at Valiant like drawing their comics but it's fun you know what it was a really like cute you know 80s 90s version of like hey let's normalize comics and who wanted to talk to us and let us into their studio Valiant Valiant it so check that out it's interesting that that's so cute I do like that again YouTube but yeah by the image revolution you can get on YouTube you have to buy it but like I'm sure if you were to look what's called the image revolution it's three bucks if you want to buy it on YouTube movies but yeah no Valiant is not and I've talked to them about it and man okay I can talk about this the old guard isn't there any more I pitched if you watch the channel you've seen that we're friends with the guys over comic-book men what was comic-book men it was a show on AMC the Kevin Smith's spearheaded about Kevin's friends wearing a comic-book store I remember yeah I'm friends with those guys and we've worked together a number of projects and I know the guys who are on the production level of that show and when like lightning was striking constantly in the same place a number of times when Valiant was like trying anything and everything and like I'm seemingly an endless budget doing really really good stuff too and my buddies were making a show on AMC I was like this is the show like call up the production house from AMC you know the same people and produce a Valiant reality show I don't we got to the point where they were like could you make the show instead and I was like yes but it would be very lame like because I'm not gonna be able to shoot you guys 12 hours a day and I will not be able to say that kind of footage but I have a life and a channel I have to keep I have other shit I need to do and like I'm sure you can pay me but you know but yeah so that's a shame I wish that could have happened that would have been fucking cool yeah I know I was like this is the show it's about Valiant and like and those got like Dinesh is so interesting and so personable and he really is I only met him like a couple times and yeah it would have been like that the cast of characters at Valiant would have lent themselves to an AMC series true story to now that we can talk about it when we did actually go there the one time we were all together for New York Comic Con what is it I got a Jolly Rancher from a nice man who worked I'm like hey that guy's giving out candy what a nice dude who's that guy Joel he runs the company what yeah it's like Joel that dude's like a multi-millionaire and that dude gave me a Jolly Rancher wicked yeah he's a fun guy you really they were all really fun oh yeah no and we've managed to do other things with them in the future in afterwards it's fantastic crap you know before we move on I want to talk about the super chats again because there's a number of them that we haven't gotten to Patrick Lawson says I love the D&D episodes of comic Bob and Cape Joel thank you very much if you're watching the show and you have no idea we are you don't know what this channel is subscribe to it please and watch more but we have this RPG superhero show that just wrapped up it's three episodes sent the DC universe a lot of fun called Harbor Patrol check it out the Iceman says saw one on TV about the psychology of Batman's villains I forgot what the name of it was but I thought it was really good really insightful about the rogues that was a DVD extra feature for one of those straight DVD movies yes I remember that one also and they did play it on TV yeah it was called Batman on Masked the Psychology of the Dark Knight right yes so you know you can check that out I believe the entire thing is on YouTube so it was pretty surface level psychology but you know it was good shit if you like that man yeah Ali Elzi says hey guys love the show we thought on a new Disney plus shows and a Mandalorian trailer trailers dope ATSTs ATSTs ATSTs man getting killed in a door very dope I remember hearing Max on CD Pro and the trailer oh man can you believe that Warner Herzog and that guy I'm sorry I'm sorry Warner Herzog I always get this to me stuff yeah Warner Herzog I heard his voice and I'm like oh no it's simply Pibbles he's so fucking good though because he's like born to play a disaffected Imperial and you know the bounty hunters and the Mandalorians in the space I'm like this guy's amazing I could listen to this guy read the phone book right it's the trailer is dope I'm excited about it Favera quality hell yeah I'm still in the same level of enthusiasm for the Disney Plus series as I was before one of them don't care moonlight that sounds cool tell me who's making the show you know Falcon Winter Soldier like okay cool sounds good you know it's emo getting a bunch of people in that right like it all sounds pretty cool dude Wyatt Russell is gonna be US agent and that's so fucking dope I know that's nuts I can't believe I hope he has a full suit that's such a good casting I'm like okay but can you not be so horrible and so evil and so modernized like he can't come back I love Wyatt Russell so much I think I think because it'll be on Disney Plus and nothing can go like above a like probably light PG-13 you're gonna see a very like saccharin version of a watered down version because it's also like look like it's such an easy layup to be like what will US agent be like in a modern parlance I've got a couple ideas yeah I can imagine so we'll see yeah I'm bros thank you all for what you'll do thank you very much and thank you for what you do which is watch the show we really appreciate on Marta Archarya says you guys should subscribe to war analysis newsletter guys very learned and also very weird interesting man yeah I know who war else is and we had a newsletter yeah I'm sure he does which sounds old-fashioned subscribe to my newsletter right but I like that and he's he is very interesting he is very learned it and I believe he has his own like thing like in terms of documentaries that'll have to like look up but I will yeah he's got a new Batman book coming out soon yeah yeah eventually yeah one of these days Zee-burn have you heard of rude dude the Steve rude documentary no actually no I'm googling it though yeah right but thank you I'll check it out now you got you all doing it right now yeah rude dude the Steve rude story yeah right this is not a comic documentary but have you guys in the Netflix series that made us there's an effort by transformers yes or transform a taters yes very very interesting and very educational all of those yeah no I really dug toys that made us I found the he-man one a little long and also a little bitter that those dudes no I'm thinking of another one there was a frickin okay I saw that there's a bunch of there's only like there's a frustratingly small amount of episodes of the toys that made us yes apparently there's a third season they've been sitting on forever they were going to do wrestling power rangers and another one I'm like fucking give me those yeah right where the hell are those but but then they made a he-man documentary like a separate he-man documentary they didn't make it but there was another one okay that one I had seen and I'm like this is long and it's basically like a triple-length episode of the third episode from the toys that made us I know all this shit all right I hurt all this crap it's the same people saying the same shit like I'll just watch the toys it made us are they as bitter in that longer documentary as they are in the toys they made us about she-ra that's what blew me away all these adult adult men as old as my dad still mad about she-ra no in the he-man one they were like celebrating you know they're like hey she was like how important it was and how good it was and how like by the way she-ra trumps he-man in terms of theme song at the very least that's she-that theme song freaking rocks it really does it gets you pumped it into the- yeah by the way but if you like the toys that made us you should really subscribe to toy galaxy it's a youtube channel here on this world it is one of the it is the best toy show channel on YouTube straight up and of me yeah the best toy anything on YouTube they blew it out of the water Dan is incredibly insightful incredibly intelligent articulate funny it's a great channel it's a great show watch toy galaxy they don't need my help anymore they dwarfed us months ago but I think we like to see our friends succeed exactly I'll yell the audio says which back is episode involved US agent that was the- that was the episode with the with the scroll maximum security check out back issues maximum security to see US agent as a third rate judge Dred Ripoff Robert Court behind mask the phantasm dead end story count yeah I think so absolutely well even like those like DDD featurettes oh I'm sorry you think you said behind the mask the Batman dead end story which is the documentary about if you've never seen it there's a fan film called Batman Dead End it's Batman fights I think it's the kid from family ties and as the Joker oh predator and an alien that's an interesting amalgamation it's a fun ass thing it came out years ago and I'm glad to see there's actually a document I haven't seen the documentary but I would love to watch it because like I'm sure it's fascinating what was the document that we're talking about fan films they did one about like all the Indiana Jones fan films and all the Star Wars fan films what was that oh no it was it was really good like I remember I got that like blockbuster like during the waning days of that and I'm like oh I had no idea there was a whole like community of fan films right I don't know it was really educational yeah that's cool yeah yeah cuz fan films are a whole other thing so we'll get into those in future and Debbie says I recently saw Shazam dock on the DC universe app and it was good oh DC universe by the way has not to like plug them or anything but like they have like a lot of like neat stuff on their feel like dig through the app they should do more documentary stuff on that app they should at least take every document they've made and throw that on there I think that bad man villains one is on there as a good yeah you mentioned another documentary here called the death of the death and return Superman you talk about the John Schnapp movie yes okay the John Schnapp documentary about the death and return or Superman the death of Superman lives it was a it's a movie about a failed attempt to make a reboot Superman movie a fascinating failed attempt yes and it's been the subject of a lot of people's like kind of curiosity forever I hope they make another one of Justice League Mortal Oh tell me about when that be great I went at the very least I want George what was it George Reeves leaves I was him and the guy who played Superman George I know isn't I can say that wrong but yeah the super the Justice League Mortal I want a big gorgeous coffee table book of all the shit from Justice League Mortal just like they were ready to go with it and then I just didn't just script with like notes you know like maybe like of Armie Hammer wants to like drop off like his script like all of the like notes and stuff like just but yeah because Armie Hammer was Batman yes was it yeah that's right but you know like scripts notes publicity photos behind the scenes images you know testimonials just the works but I'll take a documentary on that as well that would be good I also want to see that Justice League movie what went into that yeah that's what I'm saying because you can only imagine what is it that Snyder movie behind the scenes is probably more interesting than the film they put on screen yeah well I want from that movie I want like we're talking about Justice League Snyder's not just Lee yes I would love to see a documentary in the style of like the Star Wars episode one documentary die because there's a thing if you've never seen like the Red Lady of Phantomist review this is amazing they pull a lot of great lines and quotes from the documentary because George was a separate entity he made his own movie so he made his own documentary about his own movie and it doesn't pull any punches and it's not like it is sanitized but like the way that George would have sanitized it so it's not like it leaves in some of the fat and some of the you know the grit and I've gone to a bar and a couple players right like you watch how like a baffled and horrified McCollum and Lucas and and Ben Burt are after seeing the final cut of this movie and they're like what have we done and like the Disney documentary of like of last Jedi would have never had anything like that no and so I want like a Justice League that movie documentary where it's like you know unfettered access to everything you know here's like you know not just like scenes but more like interviews yeah please video con like everything where they just go like here's where we started here's who's to blame here's wrong it have to be from a third party because one of those would never shoot themselves like maybe maybe doing that documentary to would finally shut up all the release the Snyder Cut people maybe I mean like I probably not Kevin Smith also was like there is a snier cut and I've like seen half of it what was it Aquaman was going on about that to Jason Momoa my god Momoa not you to I mean like did he finish a movie yeah does it look like a movie no probably not it's not done that means K2C G like nothing of it was anyway what was it Z-burn says the Steve Roodock was about his life and struggles with mental illness I'm really powerful and highly recommend it and introduce me to Steve Rood cool so yeah check it out yeah what was I gonna mention you mentioned one called ink out ink alter you goes exposed what's that yes this was a series on IFC the independent film channel back when that was a thing is that still a thing I don't have cable anymore it is still a thing I don't get it in my cable package right and they probably don't do cool shit like this is like when IFC was a brand new channel it's like hey we're gonna play a play Pulp Fiction every day and Greg the bunny and also here's like some new shit we put together about comics because you know we're counterculture you know we're independent films yeah and this was all about comics and superheroes and I actually really hesitated putting this one on the list to talk about it because I was such a fan of it when we started doing Elsworld exchange and doing like topic themed episodes I took so much material from this because that's what it was every episode they picked a topic they interviewed some creators and they did it for 22 minutes nice they go and they talked about like some stuff to what's like they talked about race and comics they talked about politics and comics and sex and independent comics they talked about a lot of very heavy very meaty topics and a lot of what they say in there is just as true now I can really really holds up these things you know they interview like a little of everybody I think they talked to Tom DeFalco they talked to shooter they talked to a bunch of different people that a lot of access to some cool people nice I'll try to talk to the love and rockets guy a bunch oh cool yeah yeah I've never seen it so I can't speak to it unfortunately but that sounds fun they what is it to they talk about oh got they talked to Judd Winick quite a lot in it and he talks about the guy he met on the real world who contracted AIDS who he eventually wrote a comic about his life and how that also inspired him to have Mia Dearden in Green Arrow be a character with HIV oh cool that's great yeah and we get to like actually meet the guy and see some footage and everything I'm like oh wow this is really good yeah yeah by the way sidestepping this a little bit if you did like Warren Ellis there is a Warren Ellis documentary called Warren Ellis captured ghosts oh whole things on YouTube by the way thanks to sequel seacort TV mmm does he actually capture ghosts I don't think he's a ghost buster I think it's my for right but yeah I mean I hate paranormal shows but I would happily watch war and I was going around trying to bust some ghosts yeah similarly Neil game and has one called Dream Danger Sleep mmm so that's awesome I feel like I must have seen that one at some point right that one is not available you can get that Amazon I think but yeah we can chance oh so I was just a gaming yet another guy you could just listen talk forever a game and it's so great well because he's a storyteller he loves stories themselves it's great to hear him talk mmm yeah that death of student lives what happened movie from Schnapp interesting fascinating and I'm kind of impressive like I remember seeing it and being like how did like one guy one like how did he get to go to Tim Burton's house to his creepy Adams family man she just down and just talk to him in his throne and everything and talk to him about like something that he never really worked on or made and that they were so willing to talk to him to him be like yeah that's the Hollywood system man yeah like I believe you could get Kev to talk about it because he made a living doing that for a little while but like yeah it's kind of it's kind of amazing and inspiration a little bit like wow check out like what John was able to do and making it about like the fan community as well because it opens up at Comic Con he's just interviewing people at comedy talks to Jimmy Palm the audience in the first couple minutes right about super and what I like about that movie too is it's so good in the way that I think it really exposes a terrible truth about Superman and movies and that is you will probably never make another Superman movie like the Reeves one that pleases everyone because everyone has such radically different ideas about what Superman should be and what he represents and you're probably never gonna get the version you want mmm that's really depressing who's the guy they talked to the producer Wild Wild West yes John Peters oh my god the stuff they get with John Peters it's like because Kevin Smith told the story forever about how crazy he was and how he wanted giant spiders and what a maniac he's even crazier here defending the crazy kid he said you know well you know I think it was like what Barbara Stryss and his hairdresser and he was illiterate and enter husband for a little bit and he's been to jail right I love finding out that he was illiterate yeah and you hear the Kevin Smith story again you gotta read it like go like it was all just a smoke screen to hide the fact that you can't freakin read like but he can dress hair and he can fight apparently because he endlessly talks about being a street guy and how many fights he's been and there's there's another thing it's it's really short look for John Peters animated it's a series was an animation channel where they talk to celebrities and they do little animated portions of their life John DiMaggio did once their silverman did one they do one about John Peters where he talks about his life from like his youth to marrying Stryss and like none of it sounds real but it's so fucking fascinating like yeah you know I was a street kid you know I went to jail but then I started like you know doing strippers hair in LA and I got really popular you know one time I almost got into a fight with Charlie Manson because he showed up to a party naked and I'm like I don't believe what words you're saying but please keep talking right exactly I just want to see when you're gonna stop yeah really I'm just like this like I imagine the story kept going you would have been like yeah and then I raced around the world in 80 days yeah this is the kind of thing you get a lot of insights and so you get some of your favorite were not so favorite creators there's a there's a documentary from like man I remember my comic book retailer recommending this to me I would back I guess it was in the like late 90s and I was like I don't know man like I couldn't even get a hand on it because I never went to Comic-Cons and they didn't have it in many of my videos doors it was a a nine-documenter called comic book confidential oh yes I saw that on TV a bunch you can actually get to hear like what Orca Beagleman thinks and yeah it's it's really will Eisner it's really cool like some of those people aren't with us anymore so that's a really good time capsule yeah so I mean Jack Kirby will Eisner check it out watch that as well I don't know if that's on YouTube I never actually look it up again but like you know there's there's another one about independent comics if for those who like really care about like the real underground independent stuff where they follow like the dude who wrote like a fantabulous freak brothers and a couple of the air pirates and a bunch of stuff like that cool I think like Robert crumb is in that one too I know he's a very controversial figure these days for obvious reasons but yeah he's in that they talk to a bunch of people and for those who like really like comics is an art form but don't really care that much about the superhero ones find that one guy wish I knew what that one was called yeah it's the it's a really interesting time capsule to have like the late 60s early 70s just like experimental art form like we don't really know what comics can do for storytelling so we're just doing whatever yeah definitely yeah there's another one I think it's called the secret origin of the D.C. comics or something like that they made it in 2010 because it was like Batman fever they got no one they were like let's do this and and that's kind of interesting but like it's mostly like up it's the secret history of DC comics but it's like told from the perspective of all these Hollywood elitists so it's like yes what does Brian Singer or like Ryan Reynolds think about all this and I'm like I don't care I think they're gonna keep us in business for a long time is what we think exactly I'm gonna be able to buy a third gold in Turlet in addition to my house with these Fawny books right so yeah jumping back in the super chats was it the Iceman says let's face we all want a fan for stick documentary oh yeah just like Snyder documentary and an air suicide squad documentary so we can get a tell all of what the heck happened see I think the fan for stick one actually wouldn't be that interesting I think it'd be like we showed up it was boring we had to do it this is the script we had yeah I feel like fan force it was literally like I made this movie about body horror and then the studio said no yeah and also apparently that same writer director there his dogs destroyed a house yeah no they he's he like literally like sicked his dogs on there on the cuz rented area I haven't heard of that kind of like bullshit since the island of dr.
Moreau yeah I know right that's like old time you Hollywood you don't get that level of penniness anymore thanks Josh Trank good job you'll never work again no he hasn't done anything and forever since that has he zebra surprise you mentioned confidential enjoy and Joshua writes a saw death the segment lives at Matt at molten fest chefs widow intro didn't talk about these roles making it just the making of the duck is inspiring I'd love to see that because I saw that doc it's fine but like I would love to see the work that went into it I hope I mean like they have probably a thousand hours of footage from like cuz he was like you know he worked only with like youtubers and like yeah these and people like us so like he probably has like all this like great stuff like him talking to his wife about like the excitement to the failure of the like everything at this point like based on the outpouring of love and support for him I wouldn't be surprised if like they that wouldn't be successful in some way especially I'd watch it right I'd check it out I think that's why I like that documentary as much as I do even just outside you know the footage they uncover and the people they talk to it's like wow a dude like me made this right yeah like that's kind of inspirational yeah he's about my height my build he's yeah he was an interesting guy and and and had a lot of friends definitely so yeah from there I guess like other recommendations I make before we wrap up I mean I think we talked about my whole list yeah we really really did a like nothing else is coming to mind right now you that's right I forgot not just that I wanted to talk about its applications documentaries right yes that's right you expect like movies to be made like by movie makers you expect documentaries be made by like authorities with like a budget but like the fact is not only are all these documentaries available on YouTube mm-hmm but there are a thousand more that are like almost documentaries yeah made by people like us definitely and that's kind of where it's headed I think is that like like vise making like a documentary every episode is a documentary like there are YouTube channels that are dedicated specifically to like chronicling the history of X and that could be jelly beans or comic books and there's quite a few of us out there who are like chronicling shit like I don't call us a documentary thing by any stretch of imagination but like you know giving a history of a thing and giving first-hand accounts of it is in essence what that spirit of documentary is oh yeah and there's so many of those people that we know and work with oh totally doing that the close thing of documentary we ever made was that was our history of spider-man's girlfriend's video which I felt like really good about making oh it's a wonderful thing I'll still watch it sometimes if I have questions right all right let's tell me about this I was like I was like if I'm making like the history of all the girlfriends I got picked I got all of them which includes just the ironwood like I'm like and you know pick music for each decade I'm like oh I'm actually doing a thing here and I didn't have like what's more interesting is like the interesting thing and the frustrating thing about documentaries from like the inception and from like the Oscar nominated ones to the ones that we make there's no like barrier to entry and there's no like group but what's what and that's great but it's also kind of like you did there's no one to check your work no you can still make that movie anyway oh yeah so you know you could have like the history of comic and it's just totally made up and the only thing that's gonna stop you was like people who care about that kind of thing definitely but what's fun what's fun about that is it reminds me of like literary criticism it's like if you were to what back in the day with literary criticism and up until today if you were like were a critic of something you wrote like this scathing long like you know manifesto I'm smarter than the material let me tell you why and then there'd be like a similar scathing like similarly long and in-depth condemnation of that review and so it's not so much that you'd see like you know a negative comment but like it's with these kinds of like documentaries that we're seeing the proliferation of the web that's way to combat it to make one yourself and be like nope and I saw this documentary they're wrong here's mine boo and like I did so much that and so and there's a noble tradition doing that oh yeah might I also compliment the video you did on the max as someone who only have asking knowledge of the max I not only really like the new information that I believe for your video but also your own personal experience I'm like you know what we all have a max in our life and I think Sal is really letting us know that well and I yeah the max episode of back issues isn't so much like a documentary about the max so much it is what the max meant to me which is still its own kind of documentary and it's kind of like the perspective of how documentaries go I would love to actually shoot a real documentary about the max where it's like we talk about like we talked Keith and we get like all the stuff I think there be something there I think there's room for that I mean like there are things that need to be highlighted like that I would and from a third perspective like it wouldn't be good if like Keith made the documentary or like image made the documentary or you know you it would have to be like from somebody who cares enough about the material to be like we're gonna tell all of it not just the good stuff not just the like you know the interesting like or not just the profitable stuff we're gonna talk about the failures or the or the attempts at like you know to be in greedy and stuff like we're gonna talk about all of it or the very perspective is important yeah exactly like I would like to see like a true spawn documentary about like the phenomenon that was spawn like where it came from and how it worked and who did what and why and like you know you know from people who were close to McFarland to be able to say like that's what I was thinking is what he was doing this is how much influence he actually had the book like you know the sad truth is in situations like that you're probably not gonna get it until McFarland isn't with us anymore right because well because McFarland is also like smart and a good businessman interest we are to like control his own narrative which is of course very ironic given his opinions about Stan and Jack I know right so Robert course as she makes comics a good look at the industry if you're not familiar they may it's also from Secwartz or C Court which is that like rip on YouTube I'm sure you can find it on YouTube where it was a Kickstarter documentary about like women in comics oh yeah I remember sharing that kick I don't think I ever actually watched the talk I said well it's out cool I will go watch it then I have so much stuff I want to rewatch after this yeah and Lathory says I really enjoy the high quality content you guys but I hope you guys keep up the good work can't wait to actually watch the whole video later thank you very much Lathory welcome to the show hopefully you enjoyed all and stuck around to catch your comment on the episode really appreciate it thank you very much with the kind words so yeah wrapping that up I guess we'll just say thanks a lot for watching everybody let us know in the comments down below what's your favorite comic doc if you've never seen it what's one that was spoke to you from the subject you're like I gotta go check that out watch them the other thing about documentaries that I found is that like most people are like learning you can't trick me they're short they're like 45 minutes to an hour and a half they're shorter than a feature length film like true they're short they're digestible you could watch a whole bunch of them turn them into like an evening where you like oh yeah like a doc so you can learn more about the industry you love so much totally I mean they're not all Ken Burns baseball over here no exactly but like yeah exactly they could be about something you care about but thank you so much for hanging out with us of course if you want this conversation to keep going you don't want to end go to patreon.com slash comp on catch me until talking more about something else probably but maybe not we'll see we never know until we shoot it and it's an audio only podcast but one shot you can only find over there otherwise the best way help us out subscribe to the channel like this video help us out and watch more from here we'll see you guys then I'm Sal and I'm Joel so long everybody