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Alright, let's get on with the show. Weeding down upon the underworld to smash ganglin' scum a friend of the unfortunate enemy of criminal. In a serious, all powerful character, a problem to the police, but a good state of law. Hey everybody, welcome to the Elseworlds Exchange.
I am Sal. And I'm Joel. Welcome back, Joel. Oh, always happy to be back.
Yeah, on our 300th episode of the Elsworlds. Oh, it's damn. I know, 300 episodes? Wait, no, I think it's 200 episodes.
Right, there was some debate about the number, but we didn't matter. It's the 200th episode of the Elsworlds. Still pretty much. Which anniversary is that?
Is that silverware? What do people have to buy us? Right, I don't know. There's some, like, I don't know.
I actually am actually married and I have no idea what any anniversaries mean. But yeah, so we're going to jump into this. And I thought, like, Joel and I had to debate about this. We were like, should we have a Q&A, kind of like a retrospective?
I thought, now let's just go right ahead, because the holidays are coming. And they're going to be very stressful and we're going to have a lot of stuff going on. So let's save the Q&A's for later. That's a smart idea, especially this year, because Christmas Falls on a Wednesday, which is New Comic Book Day, which means we're either going to be getting no or very little new comics.
And I think New Year's Falls on a Wednesday too, this year. So it's going to be a rough one. And to compensate, I think that's why Marvel and DC are just dumping loads of new comics at us the last couple of weeks. Yeah, well, as opposed to every other week when Marvel's just constantly peraudishing you with new books anyway.
Here's the three new X-Men. Yeah, oh, thanks. OK, I guess I'll read all of these. I mean, they're good, but I just wish they would space them out a little.
I'm holding one man, I'm not a machine. Yeah. But yeah, I thought we'd talk about a topical thing that's in the news right now. It's been in the news for a while, so we're going to address the issue of piracy in comic books.
We may reference piracy of other things, like pretty digital media, music, movies, that kind of thing. But for the most part, we're going to try and focus specifically on comic books and the comic book industry's reaction to piracy. Now, I guess we should talk right at the top of the thing about how, listen, this is not a new topic. I saw recently that people were complaining about it, particularly because of people like, oh, God, who was the independent creator who was really, I think it's Ted Brant, who mentioned that he who really kind of got the ball rolling again recently about piracy, particularly of indie comics.
But that kind of got the ball rolling on a national international scale because the BBC had a topic about this. But getting us talking about piracy in comics again, because people have been stealing comics as long as they have existed. And piracy of comics, ever since you could digitize them, has been a thing. Oh, yeah.
Like, I remember there being this, I remember this topic when comics algae started. When comics algae launched, they were like, no, you can't digitize comics, because that'll make it easier for pirates to steal them. Yeah. And it does.
It absolutely did. I mean, and also too, comic files, they're smaller than movies and music, and even TV for that matter. So you can like pirate them way faster, way quicker. Right.
So at the top of the show, I just wanted to address, like, while we are going to be talking about the current conversation about digital comics and the piracy of the comic book industry, don't think that we don't understand that this has been a topic for a long time. Like a 10 plus year conversation just on the spectrum of digital comics. More specifically, I think that the conversation has been really about digital comic theft from independent creators. Yeah.
We're going to talk a little bit about indie comics, but we're going to talk about the whole thing. Before we do that, I want to mention at the top of the show, this show is sponsored by viewers like you. Those of you out there who are watching this show live on airs on Wednesdays, you are sponsoring the show if you know it or not by using the Super Chat. If you use the Super Chat, you can ask a question, make a comment, and the proceeds go to fund the machine.
We just actually got a 5% increase on a rent, so that's a really big help for us. Yeah. I'm going to try and argue it down, but I doubt it. The landlord don't see it.
So we'll see what happens. But we'll power to you, sir. Thank you, exactly. But yeah, so we do want to encourage you to use them, and we do appreciate it when you do like Michael Patterson, who says, happy holidays to both of you and your families.
Thanks, Mike. You too, man. Thank you very much. So yeah, OK.
Digital, well, comic book piracy. I remember hearing about the way in which people pirate comics relatively recently into my YouTube career. Really? I remember somebody mentioned a very, very simple by the numbers website that basically was very on the nose.
I'm not going to link it here, but it just says, like, here's the thing. We think we know the one. But they might as well just say, like, steal some comics right now of .com. Yeah, it's very on the nose.
And I was like, and I'm like, there's no way that's still here. And I went to it and sure enough, every comic book ever is available just for viewing right then and there. And I'm like, how is this a thing? And it reminds me of the days, and I remember these days very vividly, when my friend, who's actually doing work right over there, he got Napster for the first time.
He was like, check this out. I've got this. I got this program. And by the way, clean looking program, very simple, straightforward interface, very easy to use, very small, sized program called Napster.
And you basically just type in what you want. And there it is. And because of course there were people doing it, there were more people seating it. And just look at these flip downloads during a period when there was not fast internet speeds.
You know, it's funny. There's a few times doing this show when, you know, the actual, like, couple years dividing our age actually shows up. I missed the Napster generation. I wasn't there for that.
Mine was the live wire. You were there for all the pale limitators, like the Morpheus's, the Kazaz, the eye meshes of the world. Yes. And all of them, all of them, had viruses, had everything to destroy your, or to mess up your computer.
Lime wire had the most Napster-esque interface. Yes. But Napster came in and I think that Napster did a really great job of normalizing piracy. Because they gave you a very, very clean, very, very straightforward interface.
Logo, ownership, names, they're just like, listen, here's this thing. Just type in anything you want. It just comes into your computer. No problem.
And it was like, well, how is this, how is this legal? And I remember him saying, oh, it's not. It's the internet equivalent of it fell off the back of a truck. Don't ask questions.
No, literally, he was just like, oh, no, it isn't. And it'll be done. Like, oh, this is a very small, this is not going to last. But like, get your TV show theme songs now.
Well, we still can. And somewhere Lars Ulrich grew great with anger. Yeah, exactly. But yeah, there was a lot of normalization for piracy.
And I think that Napster did a good job of doing that. And of course, since then, there's been ongoing national conversation about theft and piracy. And I've seen a lot of old people can't meme memes about, like, you wouldn't download a car? Would you?
Or you wouldn't steal a handbag? You wouldn't do this. What is it? The IT crowd had the best version.
You wouldn't shoot this old lady, would you? I'd be like, and on that topic, I know that it's funny because part of the justification of piracy, particularly when it came to music and movies, was we're talking to millions of millions of dollars, the billions of dollars. My downloading of a Rihanna song is not going to impact Rihanna, et cetera. There's that South Park episode where it's like, oh, yes.
And here we see the life of Britney Spears. She cannot afford the Gulf Stream 2 private yet. She will have to wait a little longer now. This is the folly of man.
Do you see? Exactly. And on that front, I certainly, when I was a little kid, I did not think about it. Because for the most part, I was like, I don't want to think about it.
No. Wow. But the more you do think about it, the less justification you can make for it. Because you're like, I mean, the only justification back then was it's not readily available.
Like you're not making it easy to get. But the more avenues that you create to obtain the thing you want, I think that certainly I think iTunes helped to normalize this. The idea of like, if you make it cheap enough and make it accessible enough, people will naturally pay for it. Which they have, and they do.
And I know that was like the big tagline for a while where it's like, no, oh, Metallica didn't kill Napster. iTunes killed Napster because here it is. When you give people the opportunity to pay and make it simple and easy. And you know, accessible, most people will do it.
Well, and it was easy to steal from Metallica because it was like, first of all, your 25 year old CD is still $30. What are you doing? But like also, you're to have to be a dick about it. But like overall, I think that the people are more inclined to forgive, accept, understand, even commit piracy when it comes to the big mega conglomerates and these mega corporations.
Because at the end of the day, is it really hurting? How many people are really stealing slash downloading slash pirating? Are we really chipping away at the infrastructure? If so, maybe that means the infrastructure should probably change.
Like maybe that's an indication that there is this silent majority of people who want your product that can't get access to it. I'm reminded of Game of Thrones here in Canada where it's like, okay, I would like to watch the Game of Thrones, please, but I don't have HBO here in Canada. Oh, we got to get the app. And I'm like, okay, cool.
Yeah, but to get the app, you have to actually sign up for it on cable to like, well, what the hell is the point of that? Then I just want to be able to watch. I want to give you money. Why aren't you taking my money HBO?
No, that's unforgivable. The region thing, the idea of like DC, DC universe not being accessible across the country, across country borders, like the fact that video games are so expensive in Australia versus here, like there's a lot of bullshit and a lot of justification, arguable justification for piracy. But at the very least, being like, you have to try to make it easier to get. And when it comes to comic books, however, that's where we get into the great territory.
And the reason why I'm making an exception for the conflict industry, besides the fact that I work alongside it and that I respect and care about it. Certainly more so. It makes sense. It's in the circuit of the comic industry and that's what affects one will surely get that.
Wow, don't say that quite a bit of it. At least you quoted Obi-Wan. But the reason why I'm less inclined to defend piracy of comic books is because number one, you're talking about a much smaller scale. When you're talking about music, you're talking about millions upon millions of dollars.
When you're talking about comic books, you're talking about hundreds of thousands of dollars, slash millions of dollars. Now, what's interesting is we're going to get into this a little bit more specifically about the realism of piracy of comics and about the numbers. Because a lot of people are talking about the naysayers, people who are really upset or feel like they're being hurt by the piracy of comics. They may be kind of boosting the numbers a little bit to try and make their point more valid.
And those who are committing piracy of comics maybe are trying to justify it a little too hard because maybe they just don't want to pay for it. So there's an argument for both sides. We'll get into those in a minute. But I just wanted to, at the top of the hour, go like, yo, the reason why we're talking about comic of piracy, the reason why we might be more condemning of piracy of comics is because you're attacking a smaller industry that has less money, that has to do more work and is doing that upward battle and has a much sharper incline.
And it's right with its own problems already. We have seen the comic book industry crash. We have seen the dark. The movie and music industry never really crashed in the same way comics did.
No, no, not that hard. No, the movie industry and the music industry have been hurt by the changing of the winds, by increased interest. But like, there's a thing. When it comes to digestible disposable, arguable media, comic books have been changed.
And I've always had to fight against the latest thing. When you were in the 30s to 60s, your options for entertainment as a child and as an adult who might read comics were things like playing with your friends or your family, board games, comic books, but sports, there were a lot fewer options for you to choose from. And then I remember in the 80s and in the 70s and 80s, there was, no, I remember the 70s, but I remember like in the discussion about the 70s and 80s, there was an argument in a conversation about the video game industry, arcades and home video game entertainment, actually hurting the comic book market. And arguably it did because now all of a sudden you're using your money on this or that.
And that is more expensive than this. So you're just saving up more. Exactly. So you're battling with more things.
And then of course, when video games became more normalized and easier to get, again, easier access, pirating video games, can you justify it when there's a steam sale where you can get like 50 games for a handful of dollars? Like, I think not. I mean, you could argue that, but like, why would you? I mean, at this point, really?
Come on. Are you really going to steal any game for $5 when you could just pay the $5? It's true. You got Gog, you got Green Man, you got all these things.
Now, all these options now for games. Yeah, exactly. And it's interesting how the video game industry, which started out in its infancy and then blossomed into something that became a media titan. When people kind of steal their game, I remember stealing video games, like, not stealing video games, but I remember getting like, share where games.
And you know, you got the whole game, you just needed the access code to unlock it. And you know, at the end of the day, they fix that problem and they made them more accessible and easier to get. But they resolved their issue of piracy or at the very least they addressed it by saying like, okay, we just need to make it so that like you have to, you can get them directly from the provider, the barriers entry is so much lower. Maybe we're going to fix your hardware issues, maybe your hardware barrier is an issue.
It's like your computer can't run it. Well, now we're going to make it. We're going to change the literal system so that your shadier rig can run our game. And it's funny, you know, I noticed the game industry, you know, they seem like a lot less.
What is it militant about stopping piracy? Like, obviously, if you, like every company is different, like Ubisoft, like, what you need, our personal long-treat is that and the other because we're worried about piracy and people are stealing our game. Like, well, everything you try and do to make you, you know, to try and curate piracy makes me not want to play your game. Exactly.
It's such a pain. It's a really exclusive club. It's like, but you already patted me down. Like, yeah, but now we need to do a cavities search.
You know, trust you. Well, and also, like, why am I going to get like your app, your login, your special thing, just so I can get one game. That's like me signing up for one streaming service so I can watch Star Trek. Why would I do that?
Exactly. One or two games a year, exactly. And like every company does it to like even Rockstar right now. It's like, hey, we put Red Dead 2 on the PC.
Awesome. You got to use the Rockstar launcher now, like, but I have lots of launchers that, yeah, you got to use ours now. I don't need to use your launcher just to just, just to buy your freaking game. Look, we'll give you some gold bars for online.
How about that fine? I guess that's it. But like, here's the thing, incentivizing, not punishing, not penalizing. It's just saying like, yo, if you need your comics, if you need your video games, if you need your movies, we'll just do, like when you buy Blu-ray or you get like a download link, there you got your movie now, you own it.
You can get it on your digital so you can just pull it up on your hard drive, like it's no big deal. And I remember when comics were kind of doing that too, when they gave you the download code. They kind of went back and forth on that. I know they stopped and started both companies.
Yeah. No, that's the thing is that there are lots of templates out there because a lot of the bigger guys have done the work for you and shown you how to combat piracy or the very least, how they've dealt with it. And maybe you should take a page out of those books because not only have they done the leg work, spent the money and done the trial and error, but they're also eating your lunch. So maybe maybe not ignoring those avenues.
Jumping in the supercharge really quickly, I want to address those before we move forward. The Happy Mascara Rader says, off top, how do you feel about Ms. Marvel being the new star of Marvel team up? I like it as she's the first, she's the 21st century take on Spider-Man in a way.
Sounds good. I don't know. And I liked how they launched it with her end Spider-Man. That was a good idea.
She's a good gateway character, so makes sense. And she's a fan too, so that makes a lot of sense. So you as the reader get to kind of inhabit her shoes and be like, oh, I get to team up with someone so. Yeah.
Mr. Roboto says, why would one pirate digital comics, they need the money? I don't know if that is your answer in your own question or if you're asking two questions. Like why would one pirate digital comics, they need the money or the people who are pirate and need the money?
But it can be said either way. Like the fact is, people justify stealing comics because they need the money. But you could argue that you shouldn't be stealing comics because the compick industry needs the money. And I was at a, ships of Darsky had a really great allegory there.
He wrote his whole comedy story. It's like, you know, when you pirate my books, it's like you come into my house and take my Wolverine, my beautiful Canadian son, but he's not really gone. He's here. But also now I can't pay my bills this month.
Right. And that's, and I guess we should break down why creators are so bent out of shape about it versus like why I'm not seeing people like, I don't know, editors in chief or chief freedom of office was talking about it. Because like, if you want to get rich or if you want to be an entertainer and make money, I would advise you not get into the comic book industry because, and when you rail against a creator, you get really pissed at them and you tweet at them. But maybe think about how a few dollars they're making for doing something that they really do enjoy.
And, you know, they're not really doing it for any benefit outside of their own personal gratification of creation. No, no one rarely ever gets rich in the comic industry. If you do, it's because you are an editor in chief or a president or, you know, have something going on the entertainment side. Like, I'm sure you would agree, Sal, many conventions we go to where we see the artist alleys, where we see the writers, I think they're dressed just like us because they are just like us.
It makes sense because you can sweat during that show. But at the same time, yeah, no, like creators don't make a lot and it costs a lot to make comics. And it's like, but, and they're a lot of middlemen. Oh, yeah.
So like in order to make a comic book, you write the book, maybe you don't draw the book. If you're self publishing or you're creating the book and then hoping to get image to make it for you, you know, you're putting up most of the cost. You're getting the artist, you're paying the artist rates, artist, anchor, colorist, letterer, writer, you know, publisher, printer, you know, I just mentioned seven different groups that need to get paid. Oh, yeah.
And also they can spend so they can sell what and we're talking about in the comic book, we're talking about 25,000 copies a month of a book that's charging $5, $6 a month. Yeah, you're not going to be walking dead out of the gate. That just doesn't happen. No.
And in order to offset those costs, you know, you have people who look, if you want to write for comics, draw for comics, you're taking what you can get. And if you're taking what you can get, then you are open to negotiation and predatory practices where it's like, you're a great artist. Your art is worth a certain number, particularly in this kind of environment, but you want to draw, you know, a Batman book, you're going to take the hit because you want to draw the Batman book. So maybe if your, if your page rate is $90 to $150 a page, you might take the $70 to $100 to $85 per page rate just so you can get a steady work or be high profile work.
And when you're not getting that high profile work, you're going to conventions. You're paying for hotels, tables, materials, square, your phone plan, your home, you're paying all these bills just so you can support this thing you're doing. Drawing people's a creepy fetish art. Right.
Because you know, because we all got to make our money, man, I understand. Yeah, I saw a commission by, I think it was Bab's Tar, who did a nude Mary Jane from Rudy Your Vowes cover for somebody? That ain't cheap. But also like, that ain't something she wants to draw probably, but she'll do it because it probably made her a very nice chunk of change.
I got a big home pill for the mom. And actually if you go to Bab's Tar Instagram, like it's loaded with stuff like that. So maybe she didn't join her on that. But the fact is, you know, you don't need me to lecture you about like how much the world costs to live in it.
Because arguably some folk are making that justification by saying like, you know, I love comic books or I love Batman or Spider-Man or Ms. Marvel. And I want to read those comic books. But the fact is, I only make like $11 an hour or I only make $25,000 a year.
And I need to read these comics, but every month they get more expensive. So what am I going to do? Just stop reading them. What do you, what's your answer for that?
I mean, maybe you can't get them when they come out. But you know, I know what is it? Jim's up who was quoted in the BBC article said, you know, libraries, people forget that that's the thing you can actually do now. And in fact, hey, libraries actually do end up paying after the fact of the creators because you know, they got to actually pay to get the book in there.
And I know in Canada, at least, I don't know if it's the same everywhere else. If you do have a book in a library that you yourself own, you do get some sort of like, what's the word I'm looking for here? Resitual kickback? Yeah, you do get like an actual, yeah, you actually do get a pretty interesting residual kickback, which I'm like, I didn't know that.
I'm like, why, why is it that more well known? And that should be a thing. Right. Like, if people knew that, it's like, yeah, go to the library, read the book, and know you're not hurting the industry or the creator because they have been taken care of.
Right, right. Jumping back into the super chats really quick, Lathree says, enjoy your content. I have a little extra in my checks, it goes to you. I'll catch this episode later.
Thank you, Lathree. I'm sorry that if you're not around right now, you'll see this when you're watching it later. Thank you so much, man. That's very, very good.
You eat eight, four, seven, two, I'm 34. I've still never used iTunes. Ten years ago, I did stop pirating music and started streaming legally with Never Pirate of Comic Book. Great example.
Because here's the thing, iTunes, it's a shitty invasive gigantic program. I hate iTunes. I hated using it when I was younger. If I wasn't a podcaster, I would not have used it.
They had to take me kicking and screaming to use it. But streaming music legally, hell, most of these artists, I mean, like, the top viewed YouTube videos of all time are music videos. The reason is not because they're incredible entertainment or because they're like really, really well made music videos. They're there because people are like, oh, I can listen to music while I'm on my computer, I'll just pull it up on YouTube and watch it or listen to it that way.
So the fact is streaming music was the way to go. And I'm shocked that there's variety in streaming music options, but I won't be surprised when it all becomes one freaking place. But yeah, streaming music is a great option. And in fact, I think Marvel got the hint when they created Marvel Unlimited.
Yes. Streaming comics, you pay one rate, you get access to a whole bunch of library books. And that being said, you're not buying the books, you're renting the books, you're just paying a fee, so you could read them. But that's an option and it's a viable one.
It is and that's like a whole other sub discussion of itself and that is what media do we actually own anymore in this crazy digital age? That's true because for the most part, I remember when Comixology launched, you were not buying comics from Comixology. You were paying cover price, same day cover price, to rent their books if and when Comixology went under or decided to get blocked or closed. You didn't get those books anymore.
You didn't have a download option. I think they've changed that since then. You can actually download the book. But it's still in their format, you got to use their viewer.
And the other thing, of course, is you're paying same day cover price for a digital book. Why? Like it makes no sense. It makes perfect sense to me because it's the same reason why and you may not remember this folk out there because they've since done away with it.
But a few years back, Comixology faced some significant pushback from the retail brick and mortar industry. That's right. And as such, as a way of mitigating the anti-Comixology digital front, Comixology offered this option where if you were a brick and mortar store, you could open up your own storefront through Comixology so your customers could buy the comics specifically through you as a fifth or 12th middleman so that you can literally just it's like an affiliate link where you bought your Comixology books through the website of your retailer and the retailer got a percentage of the sale. They've since thrown that out the window.
That's done. But it was a way to try and just mitigate or deal with the just outcry of anti-digital fervor from the brick and mortar stores. Because that was the rallying cry. It's like, oh, if Comixology and Marvel Unlimited are allowed to propagate, that'll be the end of the brick and mortar, the mom and pop shop, etc.
I love how the argument was literally, if you sell your books digitally, we will all go out of business. As I have to say, the conceit of Comix is entirely flexible and nobody really wants to own a comic book or have a physical copy. If you allow people to get digital comics, they'll never come in our store again. It's a hell of a thing.
As I say, it's preferable to the experience of going to a comic book store, which I disagree with overall, though I do buy mostly digital at this point. Same. It's easier for work. Again, we're in an interesting position.
You and I, because we work online and we need them now. We need them Wednesday so we can get started right away. Well, not only that, for me, it's about storage. Yeah, I have studio now.
But I didn't back then and I was like, I need the room. I just don't have the room. And, you know, who knows how the rent is going to go. But I may need to go full digital again and get rid of this backlog.
But we'll see. But the reality is space and storage was an issue and digital allows us to solve that problem. But the reason why books same day price on Comixology match the same as the brick and mortar store is to say, well, look, if you prefer digital, if you prefer physical, you've got to go to the store and it won't hurt you to go to the store because it'll be the same price. Even though I would assume that cover price for a physical copy of a comic book factors in the cost of shipping and storage and handling.
So it's like, I'm paying, I assumed when I was a kid or when I was younger, certainly I assumed that I'm paying $3.99, $2.99, $4.99 for a comic book. I'm paying for the writer, artist, publisher, all the art, all the printing plus shipping, handling, storage and shelf space. But I'm not. Apparently not.
And the markup, by the way, you know, there's this, I hate to blow anybody's mind about this, but like the store that you're buying anything from gets it from the manufacturer and have significantly reduced rate, the comic book store does not at a very reduced rate. And that's been proven from the independent market. You print, let's say, a no ad 32 page comic book full color. I know that back when I was doing it, you could print them.
I think they were $2.99. Really? How much cost do you print a 50 issue run of that kind of book? $2.99 for a 32 page book.
So what's my markup? How am I supposed to make money off of this? You don't, is the answer. And that's kind of the problem.
And it's kind of the issue that we're talking about here, which is that basically the comic book industry operates everything at a loss because it costs too much to make all these things. Jumping back into the superchives, Dead On Time says, comic blab has been entertaining me for three years. So I think it's way past time I support my favorite creators. Thank you, comic book.
Angel. Thank you, man. Thank you, Jen. I like that name.
Thank you very much for your generosity, man. And thank you for being entertained by us. I'm glad that I'm glad that somebody is. Yeah, yeah.
It's not just us here, waxy. Yeah. Mr. Rob, I was a question for you.
Do comic pirates exist in Canada? Is it an issue? Yeah, I mean, it exists everywhere where media is. And as I mentioned before, I talked about the HBO thing, I talked about the app thing.
I know plenty of people who are like, I would love to pay for this digital media music, whatever, but the American companies have chosen to not allow me to pay my Canadian money. They have told me my snow dollars are no good here. And I think because of that, piracy of certain things is more prominent in Canada because we know, well, that's never coming out here. Or if it is, it's not coming out for years.
Right. Exactly. Which is frustrating. Because this is the problem is people who want your content and want to pay for it.
When you force people into piracy, that's on you. It's the issue where it's like, you have no excuse. These things are plentiful. And I get that.
You know, so actually really quick, just talk a little bit more with the superchats because I think there's a few more good points to make. And then I have a she, Mahaptara says comics are an international appeal, but they're hard to get in a lot of countries. That is very true. A lot of my fans have told me that where they're like, hey, thank you Joel for covering these books where I am in the world.
I wouldn't be able to get these. And I'm like, wow, I never actually stopped to consider that. Yeah. Com So that you can't just go to comicsality.com and buy comics everywhere in the known universe.
I'm sure there's that. I'm sure there's content restrictions depending on places where you live. Maybe the government is a little bit more pure tan when I'm sure to download and upload speeds or an issue to if you live somewhere rural, if you live in a place like that where it's like, look, I can get on YouTube fine and watch what Joel and Sal got to say. But if I actually had to download a comic, small though, they might be, that might actually be a problem.
Yeah, I can see that being an issue. It would be, it's, and that's why it's all part of the problem. Like I know that it's easy to say, um, you're, you're downloading comics. You're part of the problem or you're selling comics too high, you know, pricing too high, you're part of the problem.
You're not making comics available. You're part of the problem. But the reality is it is like all significant issues, a multifaceted issue that is dependent. It's a tapestry.
It's a tapestry that's, it's all dependent on each other and other factors. Like if you can't get comics because your government is blocking access to them, you know, that's, that's a significant censorship issue. If you, if you're doing a comics because you live in a remote area and comics don't ship to your area or there's just, it's not economically viable to have a brick and mortar store within a hundred miles of you and it's, it's the nearest complex store for me is probably 10 miles away. And that's kind of inconvenient sometimes.
She's over for me again. I live in the Canadian North and that's me talking. I do this professionally. Yeah, I have multiple comic bookstores.
I go to the one that's 30 minutes away because it's the best one in the area. And that's inconvenient, especially in convenience to leave during rush hour and like, you know, and I have the job where I do this. If I didn't, if I, if we're cutting back a few years when I was a teacher, it's like, okay, well, I work seven to four. And then I got to go to the store like at four o'clock in rush hour traffic to go to the comic store.
Like I don't know if I'm gonna be able to do that. It's inconvenient. And so, but that's a life factor and that's another issue. And it's something that while it's your control because you choose what you work at, the fact that some people don't have that luxury and it's lazy to say that like, it's just, you just got to swallow it and deal with it.
But we have to come up with some solutions because piracy is and has been an issue. And it's even if the issue isn't rampant and it isn't affecting millions and it is only talking about when we're talking about like 90,000 copies. And I know that what was it? Trying to get his name Ted Brant tweeted over at 10 underscore bandits about how his indie comic crowded got 95,000 reads on one issue.
That's right, which apparently those numbers for piracy are like pretty normal for stuff like that. And I can only imagine as an indie creator man, imagine if that was 90,000 sales. That's insane, right? Well, and when you see that and listen, I've published my own comic, my comic has been pirated.
And that's hilarious because I couldn't give that freaking book away. But I combatted it by knowing who to reach out to. I literally just contacted the websites that were hosting the book and said, please remove the book. That's my book.
Or I'll have to take legal action. And they did. And for the most part, it worked. The reality is you can get the book for two books on Comatology.
There are options available to you, but let's talk about that 90,000. Crowded probably sold what, like 10, between 8 to 24,000 units? I haven't looked at the numbers. Which is pretty respectable for an indie book, not from the big two, but still.
Exactly. But if you're talking 90,000 reads over 10 issues, that sounds a little too good to be true. And it would definitely make you frustrated to the point of saying indie comics are destroying my livelihood. But the fact is, it's probably not 95,000.
The fact is, if you actually look at how piracy works and the views associated with piracy, it's probably more like half of that. And when you go for half of that, that's like, I don't know, 45,000 views. And that's more close to the people who bought your book. And really, when you think about 45,000 views, are we talking about 45,000 individual unique views?
Or what about all the views per page? So if you actually divide it based on the number of pages that are viewed of your pirated comic, we're probably talking more like 2,000 to 3,000 views. This also begs the question too, that always comes up in piracy. It's like of that 90 or 40 to 90,000, everyone want to cut that one.
Would those people have bought an issue too? Right. Was this ever going to become sales? Or do the people who pirate now only pirate?
And was that never going to turn into any money for you anyway? Right. And the fact is, you can't say I lost 95,000 views worth of sales. It's just not the reality.
It's impossible to prove is what it is. If you look at, you know, there was a model and it was a thing for a lot longer than I'm, it's funny, I thought it was going to last forever. And then when you think about it, there's no way it was sustainable, but the web comic model. Ah, yes.
The web comic was produce your content at a loss at cost and then put it out on the internet for free. And the people will come and look at your comic and buy a t-shirt or click the ads on your website. And that's how you're going to make your money. I remember the comic book industry, comic book creators railing against web comic creators.
How dare you take this thing and put out there? How dare you argue that like putting your content out for free actually is an incentivization to buy because you're making it available to them. You're building the whole industry. Well, yeah.
And on the premise that you're putting out a product for free by on the basis of my content is worth money and I'll build an audience without any barrier to entry so that they will become fans and then choose elect upon their own volition to pay me based on either later on, of course, it become crowdfunding or through like ad clicking t-shirt buying literally for a good long time, a incalculable long time when you compare it to how long it should have existed. People made their revenue by producing a comic strip every day for years by selling t-shirts of their comic strip. Some people created a whole empire off the back of it. Yes, they created entire conventions and work with Wizard of the Coast in order to do that.
But the fact is that's an unsustainable model. And because the, again, another barrier to entry for making your content as quickly and easily as possible has also been reduced because of the ease of technology, cost of technology and resources as lowered. You know, now all of a sudden a pool of people who would say, yeah, I think about five or ten people could probably make a tidy living off web comics. Now they're competing with hundreds of people.
Absolutely. And ocean of people. Same with YouTube. Same with YouTube, right?
Like it just so happens that there's no other real way of YouTubers. Like there's, there's no like real adblock on you. They're not bad block, but like a, there's no system for YouTubers to say, there's no paywall outside of ads and or. YouTuber ad or whatever.
And really like whatever. Yeah. And also YouTubers at our level. Well, we were never going to get there anyway, so it's not for us to worry about.
Exactly. Yeah. So it's interesting how the comic book piracy issue, you know, it takes a lot of forms and it's an onion. You keep pulling off the layer.
Right. So it's like, are there really that many people pirating and are though, can you directly translate the amount of downloads or views into dollars lost? The fact is you can't. No, you really can't.
And I'm not saying you shouldn't necessarily because I think that it's definitely a, it's a thing to talk about. No, Jim's up, talk about it at length. When I, when we're at New York Comic Con, he and I talked about it for a good, like, like four minutes where it's like. He has a lot to say on the subject.
He does. Well, he definitely, I know that he took shots at comic storey in a few months ago. Yeah. He was like, my book sold, call it 80,000 copies and the video on it got 200,000 views.
This was around the time my his champions was getting canceled. Right. My book's getting canceled and the video on my book is doing better than the sales for a book if it was put out in 1994. Which I nothing but sympathy for the man because if I was in his shoes, I'd be like, what the hell?
Yeah, I'd be confounded as well. But the fact is you can't say that those are dollars in, those are dollars out of your pocket because the fact is people who are looking on YouTube for comics or for, for a story are not necessarily going to the store and going, I would buy that. But actually I'm going to go do this instead. It's different from the audience.
Different audience. Exactly. We're talking about varied audiences. And the reality is, you know, like what's another comic book industry that does bank the manga industry?
Yeah. And the manga industry has been around four decades and they've dealt with piracy forever. And the fact is they're still kicking. They're still, they're still thriving.
And so to say that piracy is the number one killer of comic books is, I think, doing an injustice to your industry because you're not really attacking the right arguments. You're not making the right points because piracy is an issue and it's something to be concerned about and to combat. But where are those issues and how do we combat them best? Are really the ways in which you can solve your problem?
So let's talk about solutions right after this. Mr. Abouto says, Tom McFarland is the Guinness book for, is in the Guinness book of world records for being the sole creator of small and thoughts. Actually, he's in the Guinness book of world records for being the owner creator of a book that is the longest running sequentially independent comic book of all time.
I congratulate him in person and I congratulate him now. That's great. It's cool. It's nice.
Hopefully it translates. I think it did because I noticed that it's one three all one through two. They were in the top and that's really cool. So I hope it translates into more people, more eyes, more comics being sold.
That Blumhouse movie might actually get made one of these days. Who knows? Yeah. Let's see.
Rescue says, is it part of the problem the price of digital comics? $4 a month is a steep subscription and that's one book out of the 30 coming out. It's one element of the problem, which is. Let's talk about that actually really quick.
The issue here is there are too many comics coming out. They are all too expensive. They're all the same price and people are still not making more money. It's the way it's because there's too many middleman, too many hands in the cookie jar.
Right. Here's my way of dealing with it. Here's my solution for you. And it's not a fair solution.
It's not a catch all. It's not going to apply to everybody. But it's a decent solution. I've made this and I make this argument every time anybody talks about a book they hate or creator that's on their favorite book that they don't like.
Right. Don't buy it. Because here's the bottom line. The only thing that these companies listen to is your money.
It's true. The only voice you have when it comes to anything. Are you unhappy with how Bethesda works? Stop buying their video games.
Have you an issue with how Steam's operating? Don't use their service. Have you have an issue with comic books? Don't buy them.
And when you don't buy them, you need to figure out, because if you're sending a message, if you are moving on, if you're like, I'm out of comics, I don't want to read them anymore. More power to you don't read them. Just stop buying them. But if you want to send a message, then you've got to do the legwork.
It's the same with if you want to change the local magistrate or mayor in your town and you want to solve that problem, you have to do the research. You can't just vote red or blue or black or white or whatever the hell colors are over in Canada. You need to do your research. You need to do the research.
How do you do that research? I don't know about you, but I have a little black rectangle in my pocket that has the collective knowledge and wealth and experience of the entire human race. My fingertips use it and just type in the keywords. There's a really simple system that gives you an algorithm that gives you everything you're looking for by just typing it in.
What you need to do is you need to do the research possible to figure out how to solve your issues. You want to solve the issues of how many send a message that says screw you. I don't want this anymore. Well, if you're opting not to buy a comic book, you need to know how the comic book industry works in order to send your message because not going to your local comic book store and not buying the book isn't enough because it's not how the industry is structured.
Because if you talk to anyone in the comic industry at any level, they're all saying that they're poor, broke, or dying. So what you need to do is do research. How is it what actually impacts the comic sales? What actually impacts the comic sales is pre-orders, which is stupid, but pre-orders are happening.
Yeah, thank you, Monopolies. But what you need to do is go, okay, pre-orders the issue. So you tell your retailer, don't pre-order this book for me. Maybe you talk to other people about it.
Maybe more of you, maybe a few of you at your local comic book store having a problem. Don't pre-order this book for me. Take me off the pre-order list. Take me off the pull list.
The pre-orders are key. If they reduce the amount of pre-orders for the books, that actually sends a message to the company that says, oh, they're not, they don't want this anymore. If comic book stores reduce their order numbers, that sends the message. If you can't afford comics, don't buy them.
Here's my solution. And it's the same with, again, the issue with, like, if you don't like the run, but you need to be, you need to complete it, right? You're like, ah, I hate to run a Spider-Man right now, but I have to have every issue. Serial completionist.
Wait. Like, literally, wait a minute. And I know that's like ridiculous for some people to have to fathom, but you have to just wait a minute, wait a month or two, because I promise you those books will reduce in value. Buy upwards of 50%.
You want to talk about how it's like a comic book that's $4.99 is too expensive. What if everyone at DC or Marvel dropped their books to $2.99 or $1.99? Would you buy them then? Because they are a month after they come out, because all the books are being published and then put out there and then your stores order them and then they never outsell, they never oversell.
So what do they do? They put them into their long boxes and they put them online or they bring them to the convention and they sell on that reduced rates. So what you do is you go to your convention or if you're in a remote area and you can't get to a convention, you go online and you find a retailer, most- The book depository. Yeah, book depository.
You go, most comic retailers have an eBay store or an Amazon shop and they'll sell their books through that, but you can buy your books at a reduced rate that way. And that's a solution I think that makes everybody happy. You know who doesn't reduce their comic costs? Comicsology.
Until there's a massive sale, but you can't wait or bank on that. So maybe that's a nice way of increasing your physical collection is by buying them later. That seems very reasonable. Because here's the other thing is that if the comic industry at large says, oh my God, 25% of buyers have all stopped buying on the day.
You know what I mean? Like it's just stopped buying it. But local comic retailers like, oh my God, I'm losing books for my back issues. Like I'm selling hand over fist at a reduced rate.
The comic industry is going to go, you're going to help your comic book store, but the industry is going to go, maybe we should make fewer books, which probably is good for everybody. But that's one solution. And you know, it's not tested because not everybody is going to live like that. But I'm just tossing it out there.
I mean, we definitely live in an instant gratification age, which I think is another problem. Well, if I can't get it now and I can't pay money for it, then I will steal it. Right. And that's the mentality that I think you need to break yourself out of because at the end of the day, I don't know if it's worth stealing.
It's battling human nature. Everyone wants something for free. It's true. That's true.
And listen, you look at the web comic model. There are some web comic people who are still making their living making web comics. And the entitlement is strong on those creators, not from them, but from their fandoms, who are like, you give me this thing for free every day for six years, but you missed an update, screw you, I hate you. What are you doing?
I pay your salary. Not really, though. Yeah, I agree. Debish is my hope.
Debish is my hope. Just says, we need to control our FOMO. It's just entertainment. We shouldn't be committing a crime or getting broke over it.
It doesn't even inspire quality. You're right. Absolutely right. Good choice of words.
They are fear of missing out. Yes. That's a good one. Thank you very much for explaining that.
It's true. It is entertainment. It is competing with not just the video game industry as we mentioned earlier, but streaming YouTube podcasts, everything, literally everything, each other. Yeah.
Cubenix says libraries allow for digital downloads too. That was going to be my thing as well. The library. I know we all forget about libraries and I feel like that's like picking the scab on a bigger issue where it's like, yeah, well, you know, libraries and some parts of the world are horribly underfunded and understaffed and everything else.
It's not going to be the savior of comics. But yeah, I mean, you know, talk to your local library about getting the comics you want in trade because then everyone you like gets a kickback and you know, the arts are in improved. Yeah. No, it's well, yeah.
And that's another thing we should probably talk about, which is like funding the arts and why it's important. 94 Evangelians, the same thing. Why do people ignore libraries? That's where I get most of my comics.
I tend to retrades. I have a good night's rest of the 2019 and the rest of 2010s. Thank you very much. Evangelia, appreciate it, man.
Yeah. But yeah, you're right. I mean, like people ignore libraries. Here's the thing for me, my local libraries.
I got two in my area. One is total shit and their entire library is funded by or their compo collection is supported by me. Yeah. Like before we had the studio, I gave away, I don't know, 600 pounds worth of books.
I wish I had them back. I have room now. But like that's where they are. The other library, again, they're grabbing novel section, about this long.
Unfortunate. Bullshit. Can't say productions. I'm not proud of it, but where I live, it takes a month at best for issues to arrive.
Read them online when they're released and then when they arrive, I buy them. I don't believe you. Like here's the thing. I hear what you're saying and I think that's a noble practice.
It's like I want to know what's happening now and then I remember what books I read for free and then I go out and buy them later. That's a hard system to keep going and some books are going to slip through the cracks. So how do you reconcile that? You know, you don't is the answer.
You simply just go, oh shit, what did I want to buy? What did I remember? You know what? I just read them all.
You know what? I remember it. It doesn't really matter. Like and so I'm not saying that I'm not saying that you're a bad guy and I'm not saying that like it's not an understandable practice.
I'm just saying like, you know, we wouldn't want to address anyone. No, I'm saying that you're doing the best you can with a bad situation and it's the failing of everyone that that has to be the way it is. And I think there's a better way. And I think that it needs we need the collective force of pirates and comic book industry professionals and fans and everybody to kind of come up with slash force a better solution.
It's true. Now, as I joked before we started, I was trying to sum it up in a funny way, you know, piracy's a lot like jerking off there. We've all done it once or twice. But you know, if you do it too much, it might be a problem and you probably shouldn't be defending it online to people though is all I'm saying.