This episode is brought to you by Patreon, specifically the Comic-Pop Patreon. Go to patreon.com slash comic-pop and find out more about how you can keep the lights on here at Comic-Pop. And don't worry, we've got plenty of fun rewards, including early access to videos and weekly updates about what's happening here at the studio. That's patreon.com slash comic-pop.
Alright, let's get on with the show. Waiting down upon the underworld to smash gangland, come a friend of the unfortunate, enemy of criminal. In a serious, whole powerful character, a problem to the police, but a good state of law. Hello everyone, welcome to the exchange, I'm Sal.
And I'm Joel. So we're gonna talk a little bit about comics that should or are being taught in schools. Yeah. We make a living talking about comics, we love comics, we are in our, we bleed four colors.
Why shouldn't we also be advocating for schools to adopt them into the curriculum? And indeed, we live in a wild, wild world where I have lived in both worlds of comics, where considered to be a joke over children, to comics are being used by educators who have virtually no understanding how they work, but are being told that if they want to be called the cool teacher, they gotta use them. Like it's, we're actually seeing a trend of educators being encouraged to use comics, and then being like, I didn't go to college and then graduate school to use your silly funny books in my book. The GC books with pictures, yeah.
Exactly. And what's more, I know that certainly in education, I haven't been an educator, if you don't know, I'm a flea lessons teacher for high school level. I worked in about five different school districts on various different tasks and levels, but I happen to be certified specifically in English education in two different states. So I have a little bit of experience at least to be able to talk intelligently on the subject and give you a little bit of a behind the curtain look at how education works and how things were adopted, whether or not things would be adopted.
But I've certainly seen the gamut of comics being used, and it's a wild scene. So we're gonna talk about a couple of what we recommend so that you, who are by and large, probably in school of some kind, might be able to take this list and say, no, show them the show because then I watch it. But you know, take this list and go, here's some things that might appeal to your demographic, your students, or if you're an educator yourself, you might be like, hey, that's not a bad idea. I'm gonna grab a couple of these.
Most of them, I'm happy we can do this show, sound especially happy. I could do it with you knowing your background and everything. No, definitely. I'm glad you suggested the topic actually because it's a topic that's near and dear to my heart.
Funny thing about comics in school is when I was a kid, I used to bring comics to school to read for fun. They were absolutely without question, not accepted as reading material for outside school, for like, oh, I want you to read something for class. No comic books, don't count. They actually used to incorporate that into their little like, shrills before assigning assignments.
For classes that I was in, they'd be like, no, Sal, shut up. I can't do any of those silly-ass comic books. You know, it's funny, I'm a little younger than you, and I think I was the generation where that actually started to change. I remember my last big book report project in high school.
They was the first time ever, they're like, okay, if it's on the New York Times best-selling list, you can do it, and that included Watchmen, V for Vendetta, and Dark Knight Returns. Yeah, and in fact, nowadays, actually, the New York Times best-selling list has become more terrible and tainted because they've decided to revoke comics entirely from that list. They're no longer eligible because why wouldn't you want to take what some are calling a dying industry and take away the one last bastion of relevancy and legitimacy that they could have scraped together? Feels real petty, doesn't it?
Feels very petty. It's like somebody screwed up. Like maybe like the editor of the New York Times best-seller list wanted to write like a Spider-Man book, and they were like, no. Just feels really crappy.
But anyway, my point is about that. It's interesting how you could nowadays be like, oh yeah, I'm in a sign of comic. It won't make students read them anymore because, and I've seen this in a couple of places, the stigma of comics while lessened still exists. And so I have seen in most, if not all, occasions, like popular, I hate using that term I really don't want to, but like popular girls and boys looking at the comic and going like, nope, like I'm not going to read that.
I'm not going to try. I don't think it's a waste of time. I've seen like nerds and geeky people be like, I read that, I'm good, I don't need to do that. Like just completely scoffing at the idea that like because it's something new and because it's something that has this stigma attached to it, it is therefore dismissible.
And so I think in order to achieve harmony in selling comics in schools, and when I say selling it, I mean like literally with a merchant, I mean like actually trying to pitch comics as a medium to be taught as a teaching tool. You need to also teach comics as like a thing. You need to be like, raise awareness and advocate for the industry itself and the medium itself. And be like, yo, this exists.
This is what they're all about. Here's what we're all about. Here's where they stand and how you can actually derive meaning and culture from them. It's messed up and weird, but there we are.
We have this thing called Super Chats. Super Chats are one way of this show earning this channel money so that we can continue to have a studio and a studio space and be able to do live shows on a regular basis. So we want to thank you all so much for participating. And if you do participate, of course, it's at least fair that we read your super chat on the show.
Super cricket, for example, says I am a graphics design student and I'm graduating very soon. In my four years at college, they haven't bothered talking about Superman, though about the Superman symbol once, one of the most recognizable symbols in the world. I agree. But I cannot talk about the CoCoGo.
No, yeah, I'm sure you spent like a good semester on the CoCoGo on like the Campbell's Soup logo, you know, but no, Superman, Batman, the concept of like just the iconography of a superhero. Can you imagine how hard it is today to develop a superhero and go like, what's their logo all about? Oh yeah, wow. Yeah, because you're not just comparing it to like its own universe, you're comparing it to every logo that's ever existed.
How is yours gonna stand out? How is yours gonna achieve some kind of visual cue? Of course, some logos completely get at hand. I mean, like the Punisher logo, for example.
It's, you know, the momentum, more, but also it's like Frank specific, like signal that says this is what you're going to get, like I am dead itself. But then you got like cops and soldiers and like gangs. Yeah, you can't all use it. Therefore, who knows?
It's very true. Even Jerry Conway has stuck up and been like, no, no American sniper people, no. Yeah, Moon Knight 32 says with the success of the MCO even, it's sad to me to see so many teachers and faculty in PTA considering comics as infantile. There's so much potential.
I agree. And I hope we can change some minds or the very least give you some ammunition so you can come change some minds yourselves. Absolutely, because you know, they do have literary value. They do have educational value.
And if we do our jobs by the end of this, yeah, then hopefully we will have, we'll sold a few people on it. So here's the thing. Like I said, you got to sell comics as a medium. You got to be like, this is a thing.
It's not easy. Some people think comics are easy that like, because it is a method of storytelling that's been around it since like caveman drawings. It's a way to express language in a visual and textual way. So you need to understand that like, it is in itself a language and that language can be used, you know, with finesse or with clumsiness.
And understanding how comics work is essential to being able to teach comics and to use them as a teaching tool. That's why I got a couple of books for you. These are comic books. They are books that are also graphic.
So technically part of the show, but they are books as well. Comics is an sequential art by Will Eisner. Mmm. It's really important Will Eisner is like, you know, the Moses of the comic book world.
You've got to listen to what he has to say because he's written the book on it. Two of them actually. He's the guy for which the Eisner award, the highest honor in comics is named. Yeah.
Comics and sequential art by Will Eisner and graphic storytelling, also by Will Eisner. All of these help to demonstrate comics as a language and how to understand and interpret comics. But if you really want to get some understanding of comics, want to go to a book that has that exact title, Understanding Comics, by Scott McCloud. Scott McCloud, creator of Incredible Works, like Zott, also has a great comic book type teaching tool called Understanding Comics, which is in fact used in every single course I've ever seen where they teach comics.
Oh really? But it's a great tool to help you, even if you're just a casual fan or you're a hardcore comic book fan, it's a great way to help you learn how to interpret your medium better. I mean, it's just like, if you love movies, reading any film book. So these are three tools that I think are essential to understanding how comics work and thereby being able to effectively teach comics better.
I would also recommend a number of other books to help you just build your ability and your language to teach comics. Because you all aren't going to get into comics and he's got a great reason as do I. But I wanted to get these books out of the way because first of all, who wants to read books for boring? I understand that, but I really, really want to get these books out there because even if you're not a teacher, you are an advocate for comics if you love them.
So helping to understand them better helps everybody. You also, and this by the way also would translate to a creative writing course or creative writing elective or a segment in your English or literature class about creative writing. The Hero of a Thousand Faces by Joseph Campbell is such a good one. It's essential if you want to understand how mythology and character work, story structure itself, it's cliche, but like it's the screenwriter's bible.
It's how you start writing a good story at the very least when you want to sell a story that has mainstream appeal. Because the Hero of a Thousand Faces of course represents the hero that appeals to multi-generational multicultural groups. It's a good idea of the collective subconscious and everything which I really enjoy. It's more of a psychological thing but still.
Right. Comics are also a visual as well as textual meaning as I've said. That's why I also recommend understanding a little bit about movies because movies are the closest thing to comics. That's why everyone says is there a movie about it or why do comic movies work so?
Because it's like a direct translation. It's like the next step for many people. I don't agree entirely. I think they're two entirely separate artistic mediums.
There's things you can only do in comics. Storyboards. It's weird that Spielberg would discount a comic book when he's been drawing comics for the last 40 years. That's so true.
Because you look like that tank sequence in the last crusade. Oh yeah. In the Jones, Treasavus father in Marcus Brody in the tank in a Scander Run or whatever. It's a brilliant sequence that you can watch again and again and again.
Steven Spielberg's storyboarded that sequence before the movie was even written. And he drew it. And he had it all plotted out and ready to go. Because he knew how to tell that story.
And you could visualize and understand how that story was just through storyboard. For me, Steven Spielberg's working on comics for 40 years. Oh yeah. Robert Rodriguez, there's another guy quite famously.
Rusky 911 says, which classes do you think comics play toward the most English sociology? Etc. Well, I'm glad you asked that. Normally, I would have assumed that English is the way to go.
But Joel brought up a lot of interesting points and some of his books speak to history and mythology and sociology. Mythology is a big one because mythology plays a big role in how you get that like meat and potatoes of your comic book universe. I mean, like, Jack Kirby's Fourth World, the generation of entire culture and history and understanding is, in and of itself, a mythology. And so you could absolutely do that.
Also, there's some great illustrated mythological texts that comics have made that are like visual representations of mythology. Like, actual mythology, like the ilead illustrated, that kind of thing. So, let's see what's next. Jeremy's Dreamance is marched by John Lewis, should be in schools.
Fair enough, good recommendation. We're going to get into more of them. But March, by the way, is a autobiographical black and white book. It's actually really, really solid.
It's relatively new. I think it came out only within the past couple of years. And it's basically just about civil rights in the United States. So check it out, if you can.
Taylor Ash is a lot of war on Els' works. It would be perfect for juniors and seniors in high school. And early college students, planetary and transmittable great choices. Transmittable and interesting choice.
I think that transmittable should be found. You should seek out transmittable. Heartless Fang, what is the Elsworth exchange? Spring 2019, curriculum, JK.
Just to run you guys in love. Thank you, Heartless. Very, very antithesis of that. You were really supportive.
And also, listen, I would love for the Elsworth exchange to be like a kind of like educational thing. It's harder to do, but you know, to achieve accreditation. But at the very least, I'd like to take what we've learned to maybe apply to like a community college course or something like that. Gavin2023, for example, says, we might read the Dark Knight for a ninth grade project, yay.
Dude, that's awesome. I also agree. I kind of want Dark Knight Returns to be a thing that you find. But that's really cool that you're going to be reading it and using it.
I hope it translates. One of my like worst, my least favorite things. One of the most depressing things for me is when you take something you love. A book you've read that you love, a comic you've read that you love.
You share it with like an entire classroom and you're like, and they don't respond or they pick it apart. That is helpful though, because it should help you to build up your understanding of the book, know where the criticism is going to come from, and hopefully either apply it to your understanding of the work and come up with a new understanding or the very least know where your criticisms are coming from so you can help better combat them. Mr. Aboutus' basketball, football, soccer balls, and toys that make millions of dollars.
No one calls them infantile. Comics have value, but not valued large. It's true. I mean, games, just calling them games should say like, oh, this is a thing that kids play.
But comics are a thing that everybody kind of by and large dismisses or has been dismissing. But I think our time in the sun is here slash comic. So, Rescue 9-1-0 says, do you think people can learn from Puerto written comics? Absolutely.
I think that you need to know how comics work first. I would read like good stuff, but I'd also absolutely read the bad stuff or what is largely considered bad. Not only will you derive new meaning from works that are considered to be largely bad, but bad is subjective. You might find something you enjoy.
You might find out you like schlock versus bad versus exploitative. You might run the gamut of that whole experience. It is important and valuable for so many different learning opportunities. So, I think yes.
Just like if you were teaching a film class, I would definitely do a unit on the room, right? Take the room and go, okay, we're going to watch this. Take notes. Why doesn't that work?
Why doesn't the room work as a film? Where does it succeed? What are some of the things they did right? And you can talk about the technical aspect, the writing, the story structure, the cinematography.
There's so much that is done wrong or amateurish. It's a site and a definite learning tool. And Andy Calvary says, my wife, a language arts teacher collaborated with other teachers on her team to show history of genocide and colonialism and use the mouths and perceptible to highlight some of these links in history and literature. Excellent choices, but definitely on our list.
You're a white and smart lady, I'm glad that she was able to collaborate. I know that like actually in most American secondary schools, they're absolutely trying to encourage more collaboration between departments, which is much the shakerina most of the teachers, by the way. I definitely agree that it's a good way to do it. It's definitely a forward thinking method of trying to do something that achieves a greater understanding and purpose than what you've done before.
I mean, why do I do it the same way for 200 years? Why not change it up a little bit? And Mike Hawk 420 says he also thoughts on Steven Spielberg's debate about not wanting Netflix movies to win Oscars and are you excited about Jansan Laude's reboot? Yeah, I mean, this has been a never ending battle with Netflix, it seems.
And like, you know, the old guard of filmmaking, because this is the same group of people who so long ago were told, oh, horror movies, aren't real movies or science fiction movies, aren't real movies, I guess, at a certain point, everyone just becomes the crotchety old man. Yep. Which I think is a real shame that this is going to happen to us statistically at one point. Also, Netflix is kind of funny too, where it's like, you know, they've been turning out some really good stuff and more people see their stuff and go to the theater, which I'm sure makes a lot of people upset.
And also, Netflix wasn't a real contender until they started spending money on the same level as the big studios to start getting recognized. So really at the end of the day, is it a quality thing or a money thing? Oh, I don't know. I don't know what Spielberg's problem is.
He's written about the benefits of Netflix. So like, to see him say this is really weird. Yeah, like real crotchety old man stuff. It's almost suspicious.
But I don't know what his... Whenever anybody, particularly people in a position of authority or financial, you know, authority, do something that doesn't make any goddamn sense to you. Don't try to apply logic to it. Instead, go, how would they make money from what they're saying or doing?
And odds are you'll probably find a more appropriate answer to your question. Certainly you'll... And a truer answer, which is too bad. So, yeah.
Because that's the thing. You think, why would Spielberg complain? Why would he try to make more money? And it's like the answer is because they're always trying to make more money.
Nobody's who has a million dollars thinks, I'm good. Nobody was a billion dollars ever thinks I'm good. Anybody was any amount of money thinks, how can I get more money? I have some of the money, but if only I could have all of the money.
Exactly. So, there you go. By the way, I'm excited a little about J&Bobs reboot. We'll see.
I'll say I'm more excited for these two than I was for the last two. He did the sausage movie, whatever the one before that one was. The Losers and the other one. Tusk, yes.
I'm more excited for these. Also, they put out a picture today from like the side who was J-Bob and his wife. And they're, well, I want to know. Oh, I thought you were talking about the channel.
It was with picture. Oh, maybe I didn't think of that one then. Yeah, no, J's girlfriend in the first movie. Right, of course.
My question is, I wonder how are they going to explain a silent boss weight loss? That's what I want to know. I know they will address it. I'm excited to see how they do it.
I'm sure it'll be like Bob and vegan or something. Or something. That's what I want to know. But it looks cute.
Like, good for Kev. I hope it works out. I hear like everybody's in it. So, except for Randall, who was the reason why they can't make lyrics three.
Oops. Oops. So, let's jump into it. Somebody earlier asked Joel about like non-English classes.
I mean, for you to use comics, do you have any that you might be like, oh, this would be good for it to for like not just an English class. Because most of mine are obviously from an English teacher perspective. You know, it's funny. When I went to London Comic Con this year, I sat on a panel with Scott Chandler and a few other people who surprisingly, I didn't even know this until I was around Canadian comic makers.
They do a lot of historical fiction in comic book form. Yeah. Like a lot like that's a huge, huge industry here in Canada. And yeah, obviously they have a lot of stuff talking about like, you know, upper and lower Canada and a lot of French people.
And I'm sure a lot of them to our languages that I can't understand because I was never good in French class. The answer is yes, they're out there. I wish I could give a more educated answer though. Fair enough.
By the way, if you want to talk about like history, and particularly I'm going to help you out with some Canadian history. Oh, there's a great comic strip that is collected in books that you can get that is funny, informative and like accurate. And it's called Hark of Agrint by Kate Beaten. Oh, yes, I know Hark of Agrint.
Okay. Yes. Yes. Good.
Odds are if you troll read it or you read or you're familiar with comics or comic books, you should absolutely are familiar with it. Or if you're only tangentially connected, read Hark of Agrint. I guarantee you will enjoy it. It's got something for everybody.
But it's also educational in its own way. Good poll. Thank you. Shnile Schnigelbop German says another great book about comics is why comics from underground to everywhere.
Like Hillary shoot. Nice. Good poll. Why comics from underground to everywhere by Hillary shoot?
Also, do you like pancakes? There may be some really good pancakes in your letters page future. I love pancakes. I'm a huge fan.
And so yeah, I'll take it. Absolutely. Thank you for sending us pancakes. Mainly tell you something about pancakes.
This is quick aside. There's nothing to do with the kitchen. Whatever. But like Joel, what's your favorite kind of pancake?
Oh, man. Is there a style or is it just like whatever? I like the kind that comes with bananas and with like the powdered sugar stuff. So you're a top-ups man.
I do enjoy a good topping. That's not to say I don't think a pancake can't stand on its own. But usually for me, I like to see the pancake as a delivery mechanism for fun toppings. OK, fair enough.
So it's basically an edible plate for you. It's an edible plate. But they can still be good. But again, if I just want some to stand on its own, I'm more of a waffle guy.
Ah, I hear you. For me, the best kind of pancake is it's rare to see nowadays and it's harder to achieve because I don't really know what they do. But what you need to do is I like a pancake. First of all, if you can't do this, go to the original pancake house in Caldwell, New Jersey, or West Caldwell.
Original pancake house. Any of the choices will be amazing and delicious. But for me, if a pancake has... OK, so it's thick and delicious.
It's not too thick, not too cakey. But it's got to have this brown outside. And it's not like it's burned and it's not like it's just brown. It's caramelized.
Something about it where it's almost bitter. And there's something about that where it's like maybe they use a lot or something, but it's just so good. And I don't get them very much. I don't know how they achieve it.
But something about that. When they get that, you get it right. Master Taren says, hey, let me make sure I got the right one. Yeah, OK.
Master Taren says, hey, it's my first super chat. Well, welcome. Master Taren, thank you very much. A part of my league group, people.
Also, I had a history professor who used Watchmen for Cold War History, and I even got him to Read Red Sun. Good cold. No, please. I wouldn't teach Red Sun, but I would use Red Sun if I were in a history class.
And it was like right before the end of the year. Yeah. I have to give them something to be graded on. Read Red Sun.
At the end of the year, we're going to do either like a quiz or like a read an essay. Something fun. Then also force this comic down your throat. Like that kind of thing.
Alternate history is a really good thing. A Watchman is good for that and Red Sun is good for that. I don't know if that would be more history or more creative writing to be like, all right. But what if things went to different back?
I think like creative writing, you can do anything. Like you can make it up. History, you have to know. It's in the details.
So as long as if you write accurate alternate history, then I think it would be considered history. As if C. Ed says, first time watching live, I'm going to love both your guys' channel. Well, thank you.
As if we really appreciate it. And welcome to the live show. You're part of it now. Thank you.
Daniel Shepherd, how about a Dutch baby pancake? They're phenomenal. They take an extra bit of time though. So you want to make sure you work that into your schedule.
When you get them original pancake house, they do have the Dutch baby, and it's great. You are selling me on this pancake house thing there. So I can make it to Jersey one of these guys. Mr.
Bottom Planet also sound dimensional weed cakes. Weekakes are great. But I only had them a couple of years ago for the first time. Intimidimate them in a great episode of Comic Pop Kitchen.
Intimidimate weekcakes. Check them out. They're great. And hard to find too.
You're not going to find that on any old menu. That's something you got to make at home. Nobody makes them. Anything to do, they're going to just make a pancake.
They're just going to lie to you. So, okay, getting into comics. I haven't broken up a little bit by age range. So here are comics that you can get, that you can put into a curriculum for students from the ages of like, let's say, grade two to seven.
Solid. And you apply where they go. And I'm not going to do all the work for you. You got to figure out where they fit.
Bone by Jeff Smith. I need to be able to mention bone. Because you're going to need it. Like, here's the thing.
With bone, it's like, it's fantasy. I remember they used to teach the Hobbit in schools. And they took it. And then it became a phenomenon again.
So they brought it back. But like, bone is every bit, if not more relevant and appealing to children, while also being like successful and relevant as the Hobbit. So check out Bone. Jennifer and Matthew Holm have a great series called The Baby Mouse Books.
The Baby Mouse Books are great little comics that help with young kids. And I know from experience that they are great teaching tools. And that kids gobble them up the way that I used to gobble up Fierce Read books in my using. Amulets by Kazu Kibushi is a great little series that, or not series, but a great little book that appeals to a younger generation of kids.
And also helps to make comics relevant for them. Learning to fly, a g-man learning to fly by Christian Russo, great for way younger kids. To get them interested, get them reading. That's what's important is getting them reading.
Even if they necessarily read or understand all the words, getting them used to holding a book, looking at words, and the visual cues, helping them understand what words mean. Really, really. Starting as the hardest part, yeah. Exactly.
Calvin Hobbs, you need Calvin Hobbs. Calvin Hobbs was one of the best teaching tools for music kid. Learning how to read bigger words, understand them. The art is impeccable and unparalleled.
You could read Calvin Hobbs in any language or with no language, but the words are so well executed and chosen and brilliant that it would be the service to take them out. But I really use it. So that's awesome. Check out Calvin Hobbs as well.
It's going to be a series or a show or a movie or something. But David Peterson's Mouse Guard. Yeah, Mouse Guard. That's a good one.
Mouse Guard's great. It's not as smart, but it is fun. Yeah. It gives you an appreciation for art and for anatomy.
Stan Sakai's Usagi Ojimo. Ah, I love Usagi Ojimo. He's a rabbit with his ears in a top knot. He gets into fun events here.
It's true. But there's something real there that you can actually find in an penitentiary. And you can give it to a younger generation and not have it be like, what is the scandalous thing? If you're teaching any kind of actual literature, Marvel has a series from 2007 called Marvel Classic Comics and then later on Marvel Illustrated.
Marvel Illustrated. Did comic book versions of classic books, which include The Iliad, Dracula, Moby Dick, The Wizard of Oz, All of Them, The Man Iron Mask, The Three Musketeers, Treasure Island. All the public domain stories. Exactly.
But it's a great way to sell these kinds of works and help with understanding. Because here's the thing, like back in the day when Cliffs Notes were a thing. Cliffs Notes were actually developed as a teaching tool. They weren't there to skip reading.
They were there to help you understand what you want. What's going on. And that's why I love when I teach Shakespeare. I read slash explain Shakespeare the whole play before we even start to do the show, before we even do the class.
Because I'm not going to just make you all read it in class out loud to each other and not know what the hell you're saying. It's going to take two weeks to waste everyone's time. You hear it, you'll understand it better. You see it, it'll be way better.
Were you still teaching when they introduced these where you had the version of the book that had the original Shakespeare on the lap and a translated modern day speak on the right? Yes, I hate that. I think it's disgusting. But I get it and I would never use it.
I think that Shakespeare has, there's a reason it's Shakespeare. Right. If you take away what it is, you take away everything that means what it is. Like you're hurting it by reinterpreting it.
Right, right. There's a reason why it's timeless and why you can send it in any period. And like, trust me, it's not nearly as impenetrable as you think. It's the poetry, that's for sure.
Oh yeah, but if you have a teacher, like who's worth their salt and they bother to Shakespeare, then you should get it. If you don't, they fucked up. It's not hard. So anyway, but then we get older.
As you get older, you can start reading more contemporary works. And that's where we get into some of the list that Joel and I have both. I think, and Joel's going to agree with me here, a great transitional book between like seventh, eighth grade to high school and Ms. Marvel.
Yeah, very much so. No doubt about that. Real, real fun book. Real, real relatable, I think I would say as relatable to kids today as the old lead Dico Spider-Man's worker back in the day and talking about modern stuff and talking about just fun superhero stuff.
It could be like a modern day catcher in the riot for people. So I think it's essential. No doubt. Before we officially transition, Michael Lowe says cast iron pancakes had that gold crust you want.
Fair enough. Thank you. I'll try that out. Mr.
Abato, great Pac-Plant Hulk fits the bill for teaching. I guess certainly if you're talking about world building or you're talking about like, you know, time waster for creative writing. But like I've read Planet Hulk cover cover, I've read the appendices. It's a lot more about world building than it's about education.
But if you could find meaning in it, then it's definitely valuable. Taylor Pashter, would you also do focus on genre and comics focusing on certain writers like Brubaker or Lemire for crime sci-fi or tesst, absolutely. I mean like Gotham Central is a great book for you. And all those writers also speak to those elements.
The thing is, if you break into genre, you're going to get away from you. Yeah, a little bit. I'll be like teaching in film class and I'm being like, okay, and we're going to get into comedy and horror and better. It's going to get away from you.
And Gotham Central is great too because it actually touches on so many more themes than even just the ace ones. You get some LGBT themes later on with Renee Montoya. You get some horror themes later on with Poison Ivy. That book touches a lot of genre.
That's true. Venom says I'm a middle level ed major. Any suggestions for freights five through eight? Definitely.
What I just wrote down for you and I'll toss them out again. Bone, Baby Mouse, Annulant, G-Man, Mouse Guard, Usagio, Jimbo, Marvel Illustrated, Calvin Hobbs. And those are kind of like a good age range between five and eight. I'm just Marvel if you're doing eighth grade because that's when you're starting to do more adult themed books.
You're going to like, 1980, four should be taught in eighth grade because it's harder, but their brains are there and they can fix it. Yeah, definitely. Venom is also known for math and science focus. That I can't help you.
I'm not really a math and science kind of guy. Neither am I. I feel like I should have an answer for this and I don't. Yeah, right.
A beautiful mind. What is it? Math class? Because it's like a one movie that's about math.
Right. And even then it's not really. No, it is. It's tangentially about math.
Yeah. But it's cool you got to see that great movie because it is really great. Yeah. It is really great.
Great Russell Pro Performance. Yeah. Chase Eichler says, would you teach Watchman's lesson on satire? No, I would teach it as a kind of like, I would teach for creative writing.
I talk about, you know, prose, character work. I definitely can't. E-instruction. Construction, absolutely.
So those are those are kind of things that I would use. Satire could work, but there's more like V for Vendetta. It might be more in that line. Which hey, V for Vendetta and the other one are great too because they have movies attached to them.
So you can actually be like, hey, class and at the end of this course, we'll watch the movie and we can have a whole discussion contrasting comparing what one did right and the other one didn't. Yeah. I argue the movie is actually a little better in the book. I certainly prefer it.
For V is one of those weird situations where I will say that because V in the comic is not really a main character. You see him through the eyes of other people as we mentioned a lot. Exactly. So jumping into more like high school level, like pre like junior high to high school level, Joel, let's talk about some of your books.
Yeah. Here's the one that I actually thought would be rather interesting. You know, it's a book that I think we all really like and I think it's one that I would like to expose young people to because it is, you know, literally standard. Also, I think this is something you could give to even a philosophy class because the writer is known for kicking a ton of philosophy and that is grandma since all-star Superman.
Absolutely. Also Superman is so great and also so relevant and appeals to other people. Totally. And there's definitely something in there for everyone because they break it up into a bunch of different stories.
Maybe you like the Kryptonian astronauts stuff. Maybe you like the stuff that they actually omitted from the animated movie where we actually got all the Superman from across time and the death of what is Clark's dad and everything. Oh, yeah. No, I like that.
The anime movie is really great, but it's not the book is better. It's got a lot more. You can just do more with the book. Totally.
Totally. We talked about this one a little bit. We touched on it. It certainly came up in the Superchats, but one of your pulls was what's called Articno's Mouse.
Yeah, Mouse. I mean, I would do my surprise again. This is how long I've had this idea in the hopper when I was researching this one. Turns out this and a couple of the other books I mentioned on my list are actually taught in schools right now as it should because Mouse is a great one for exploring World War II and the Holocaust through the lens of cats and mouses.
Yeah, no, it's right. It is. It was considered to be important and iconic. When it came out, I remember when Mouse was like a big deal, it won a Pulitzer Prize.
Yeah. It's a great way to sell it to people. But like, yeah, it's incredible. It's not perfect, but it is excellent.
It's a really good like if you wanted to fan the artistry of comics and like, hey, they have important things to say. It's more than just, you know, people and colored underwear punching each other. Right, exactly. The art is almost borderline experimental.
There's a lot to talk about with Mouse that you, it's not just a teaching tool for history. It's also like a great method to show how comics work, how artistic expression can like tell its own story, the art in itself sells. Medium and message and all that good stuff. Exactly.
So yeah, it's heavy, but as heavy as anything else that you would teach in that kind of, with that kind of like thematic. I know in my World War II history class that they gave us a lot of really heavy stuff to read a lot of really heavy personal accounts of like, you know, Holocaust survivors and everything. And I think if you're going to give high school students that you can give them a mouse. Absolutely.
If you got to read what's called Elie Wiesel's Night, you can read it. I would also, at that time, I also probably toss out, you know, Watchman, that'd be a great time to do it. But I wouldn't put it against, I wouldn't put it in a vacuum. You'd have to read other superhero books to get there.
It's true to really appreciate what it means in the alternate history sense because it's a book about comics. Right. So, and to teach it as like a thing where it's like, no, it's representation of alternate history, we're talking about the Cold War, no, it's talking about superheroes. It's talking about like what Alan Moore thinks about them.
All that other stuff is in it, but at the end of the day. And like, and while the books on this list doing some of them do include superheroes, I wouldn't use these and only these. I would also have them like explore comics in general. But you have a couple of superhero books that are great and also relevant to this topic.
Indeed I do. So let's hear them. Okay. So here's a new one that came out just recently.
And I think it's one that we both really enjoyed. And this is one that I think could easily be taught in a civics class and a creative writing class in an art class, even because the guy who wrote it also drew it. And that's Batman White Knight. Yeah.
Interesting poll. I would not have picked it originally. I love this one when it came up because it was such a high mind to take on the superhero genre. You don't really need to know a lot of history to truly enjoy because a lot of it's baked in there in its own universe.
But it talks a lot about like, hey kids, be mindful of who's got their hands in which pockets and who's making money and how a city works and how the police work and everything and how the push and pull between people and corruption and order and everything. Yeah. Just the the the dicey nature of who Batman is what he is what people understand Batman to be particularly in a classroom setting where they're like, they're not necessarily sold on who Batman is because they might not read comics. Yeah.
It's a great debate book. Very much so. I think this book would spark some really interesting debates in the class, which were always my favorite part of English class on the teacher would open up the floor and be like, I want to this scene mean to you what you think the writer was trying to get across here. Totally.
In a high school setting, you need to have books that will occupy the place of or compliment those other books that are relevant and contemporary and about being a youth in an extreme circumstance. That's why I got to recommend it's more of an illustrated novel, but I'm not a pitch anyway. It's great Thompson's book, Blankets, which is a semi-graphic biographical book about being raised by evangelicals. Oh.
And I'm not saying anything about that topic. I'm simply saying that this is a kind of book that you would expect to see in high school English class. It's the kind of thing that's looking at a different or a familiar environment under this kind of scrutiny. Yeah.
Same with Persephone, which again is another book we know is actually taught in schools. Absolutely. So I mean, those in general are important and also would be a great teaching tool and help break things up from just looking at these words on a blank page or on a screen because let's say it's a very bad now apparently. Yeah.
Is that how it is again? It's been a long time since I've been in school. Is that how it goes? How did they not even get books anymore?
Is it all ebooks now? I mean, I've been in my experience and I've been I've taught relatively recently. It's still it's still books. And I think it's just because they have them.
Yeah, I was gonna say. ChaeyEse Eichler said his question. Sam Anderson, teaching comics as art. What books come to mind?
Art books like teaching comics as an art form. Any of the books I mentioned earlier about sequential art by Will Eisner understanding comics by Stomac Cloud. We're talking about art. I got two books for you.
I'd say anything by Alex Ross. Kingdom come by Alex Ross. Yeah, there you go. I not only like used this in a religion course in college, but also it's just it's unparalleled in the art.
And you have to understand like the climate from which it came like Marvel's was the first one, then Kingdom come and completely dwarfed Marvel's. Yeah. Because Ross's art just got that much better and arguably the story was like more in depth than in grossing. But Kingdom come obviously.
The other one which is the cover sake for this episode is DC's New Frontier. Hey, another good one. I've got old yeah, good old New Frontier. Yeah, got a love out one.
Cook was a genius and had a beautiful eye for character and anime in its own very distinct style. It's also a great way to look at history, but I would more see as an art book. I wouldn't use it in place of history. I'd be like, no, no, it's just like history.
I guess you can read New Frontier, but like more it's about the art and new Frontier also has a movie attached to it. So if you were teaching a course on it, you could show the movie which Cook actually wrote himself as well. Yeah, it's a great version of the of the of the comic. I love DC New Frontier of the movie.
It's not as in depth. I highly recommend you get the book, but like those are some I would use if you're going to teach a comics and visual medium, you know, that would be what I pick. I would also pick something like you got to get some manga in there like Akira by because that's true. Atomo Akira is something for everybody.
And at the very least they might have heard of it. Yeah, that probably helps. You know, but it's even I've read Akira and I'm not a manga guy. Even good just for historical sake to be like, hey, and here's Akira.
Here's the thing that so many other things have ripped off stylistically since then. Yeah. And for that to that credit, I'm also going to pull a Tiffany and say like pretty guardians Sailor Moon might actually be something they're might be something there for you, especially if you're like a young woman. I read a lot of it too.
I'm not going to lie. I can't front. No. I'm not going to do show again.
I just like. Yeah, grab already another super chat. All right. What was it?
Mr. Roboto says, great Morrison, weird work for teaching. Great Morrison, man. I mean, like I think if you were doing a comics course, he would teach some great Morrison like because he has more to say about comics.
It is about like the human condition, but animal man, doom patrol, and we said all starts with those all are great tomes you could use. And honestly, I might also pick something like final crisis because of how meta it is. Yeah, actually teach kids about meta-tax. I think is really important.
Something that a lot of English classes don't do. Yeah, totally. Oh, right. Getting back into the super chats.
Mike Manhattan says X-Men, the Magneto Testament would be great. Yeah, I think so. He also recommended planetary for the history of pop culture. So fair enough, we have the planetary omnibus here.
And I've said it before. I think Ethan would really dig it. So yeah, I'm moving right along. Taylor Patcher says what would you also throw in the authority with watchmen since another deconstructed work at Superheroes and their effect on society going into the name of the millennium?
I would recommend the authority. I would teach watchmen recommend authority. Yeah, it's a bit of a harder sell. You don't want to overrun them with deconstruction of superheroes.
You've got to give them some room to grow and seek out that which they might find meaning in and of themselves. Exactly. Will Engolden says for high school students, I might suggest some tetsukah books like Blackjack or indie books like the American Way and Incognito. Fair enough?
Yeah. I'm not familiar with either of themself. I'm sorry. Is Blackjack the Doctor?
Is he the guy who's like the anime doctor who does cool stuff? He's like Anime House? I don't know. I don't know either.
I couldn't help you. He did Metropolis and Asterable. It's like it's early manga kind of thing. Right.
All manga anime. Anyway. All right. So moving right along.
We still have plenty more. We talked about superhero books. You have a couple other ones that are major superhero titles that are from more like civics and sociology. I like this one a lot.
What was it? Green Lantern? Yeah. This one.
Green Lantern Green Arrow, the hard traveling heroes from Denny O'Neill. I thought this would be really interesting. It would be really timely for the age we live in. This is a superhero book that kind of ditches a lot of the bright lights and glamour to talk about.
You know, a lot of really important pressing issues that have not gone away since this book was written. But more importantly, what I think is great about this book and what I think would actually lead to some really great conversation in a classroom setting. This is a book about a liberal and a conservative who are best friends and who fight for good. Right.
The idea that you can have conflicting ideologies but still want the same things and you'll have mutual respect. And you'll respect not to shouting at each other over your disrespect for each other and your beliefs. Although they do that too. I think that too.