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Alright, let's get on with the show now. Waiting down upon the underworld to smash gang men, come a friend of the unfortunate enemy of criminal. In mysterious, powerful, character, a problem to the police, but a crusade of a law. Hello everybody, welcome to the Elseworlds Exchange of Style.
And I'm Joel. So today we're gonna be talking about the DC Black Label Line, we're gonna talk about what it is, what it could be, and maybe come up with a couple of black label pictures ourselves. Welcome, this is a Joel idea, you were like, hey, let's talk about black label a little bit. I think we promised to do this at some point.
I sure we did. But I'm sure we also thought black label would be further along than it actually is now. We certainly did. So if you're wondering like so many people, what exactly is DC's black label?
You might even see a couple of black label books already. Batman Damned, black label book. Batman White Knight, which was just a simple non-elseworlds, elseworlds, DC-related series. Now, DC Black Label book.
What does that mean? Well, according to the the horse's mouth, take a look at what DC says, and if you wanna read along with me, check the description below. There's a link to DC's official rundown black label. DC Black Label is a brand new publishing imprint dedicated to giving premiere writers and artists the chance to expand on DC's unrivaled characters with unique standalone stories set outside DC continuity, which is already not true.
Free Joker's coming out to black label book. It will directly impact DC continuity. The imprint will be DC's home for classy, collectible superhero stories aimed at a mature reader looking to be challenged and surprised as they are entertained with an eye for the unique and remarkable. That is a non-sentence.
That sentence says nothing. Also, we're letting Azarello and Miller write books in this, so it's not gonna be classy either. Not at all. In that regard, each DC Black Label series will have a unique format and a release schedule designed to best serve the story.
Late books. And the creative vision. With the first of the previously announced DC Black Label titles set to debut later this year, all three of them delayed until 2019. Those being Batman Damned, number one September 19th.
That came out. By Monthly Three Issues, Batman Damned, number two, I don't think it's coming out before the end of the year. Neither do I. Superman year one, number one, set to come out November 2018.
No. I looked that up. Apparently they're expecting it to come out in September 2019. Yep.
You see, we had to push them back because of the big dictionary again, so we had to take a bunch of time to erase all the penises that we drew. Right. And the other history of the DC Universe number one set to come out this month. Now, who knows?
Which is a shame because that was probably the one that I was the most excited about. Right. There have been a number of other announced books. I know that Scott Snyder and Greg Capullo are doing their own Batman book, which if you want to know more about that, in fact find out what the first issue looks like.
Check out our interview with Scott Snyder over on the Elsport's exchange playlist. Check that out and listen to it. It's amazing. Phenomenal two hour long, you know, saga, so check that out.
But yeah, there's a lot more that they had pitched or that they said were coming. So let's try to suss out exactly what the hell DC Black Label was supposed to be. And what it's going to become. And what it probably is right now.
So what do you think, Jill, can you square that circle, parse that? What exactly are they trying to say DC Black Label was? I mean, I think what they were trying to say is what they always say every so often. And that is, hey, these ancient grandpappies, comics, no more.
These are classy for adult books. No more that shiny heroes and spandex. You can put this on your bookshelf and you can call this a graphic novel if you want, which is fine. I loved Marvel Max.
And that's basically what that was. Yeah, that's true. But also weren't DC books basically that before when they were put out in prestige formats or in graphic novel? I mean, what is the Dark Knight Returns, if not one of them classy books they're talking about?
Also, most if not all, in fact, I think every single one of them star superheroes. Yes, absolutely. There's really no outside the boxing. There's there's the book that I think is supposed to be more about the Amazon, but they put Wonder Woman's name on it.
So, you know, I remember that there was going to be a Wonder Woman book. I think that's probably coming out now. Who knows? But the other thing was, as I understand it, the Black Label is supposed to be a mature readers line.
More or less, it was going to be... It's going to have brevity, three to seven issues. It was going to be self-contained and it was going to be for mature readers. How many vertigo-esque of that?
Right, except not vertigo because they brought back vertigo. In fact, Sam and Celebrating is 30 year anniversary this January. Vertigo is a totally different animal. And I want to make sure we distinguish this because vertigo is its own thing.
And I don't want DC Black Label to become vertigo because vertigo has kind of the pastiche that the DC Black Label description kind of wanted to achieve without any, like, efforts or grounding. There's no proof that DC Black Label is great and deep and mature because there's only been one book. Yep, and a bunch of other books that they've re-released, which that's what confused me. Hey, we'll boost our name cache by taking a bunch of books that people already know and love that are never out of circulation and you're never going to have a hard time finding anyway.
And we'll call them Black Label now. Exactly. Now, that is another thing. I mean, like, it used to be that there was an Elsworld line.
And Elsworlds was a very different kind of idea. Elsworlds did not try to be self-contained. It was self-contained, but it wasn't like, oh, it's only going to be this one thing. It's going to be Elsworlds were what-if stories in the DC universe.
And they brought those back recently too, that Nightwing New Order book. That was an Elsworld book. They proudly declared that as an Elsworld book. And now they don't seem to be talking about Elsworld books anymore.
No, Batman White Knight was for all intents and purposes own Elsworlds book. Now, it's a Black Label book. Similarly, we just got a bunch of new news about re-releasing the Dark Knight Returns. That would be a Black Label book as well.
Now, I love the Dark Knight Returns, but how many times can you re-release that book? I'm pretty sure everyone owns a copy by now who wants a copy. If they don't, you can easily get a copy anywhere at any time. In any condition, with any version you can get.
And once again, by the way, I looked at the specs on the Black Label Dark Knight Returns release. It's just another printing. I mean, like, if you look at the White Knight Edition, I don't-if I were like a new reader or if I were an old reader or a lap-streeter and I picked this up, I don't know what the hell Black Label is. It's true.
And here's another question. Are they paying full price for these? Because like you said, if I want a copy of Dark Knight, if I want a copy of All-Star Superman, I can get it at a good price. Right.
Why would I buy a new version? Like, if you're not going to put anything new in it. No, and there's nothing in here, by the way, that says what Black Label is that gives you any depth or information about White Knight or about Sean Murphy's approach to the character, about where it's coming from, whether it takes place outside Continuity or not. I mean, obviously it does when you get into it, but like, if you don't know anything, if you're talking about these fabled new readers that you're trying to get into with your graphic novels, you know, people are going to read this and go, there's two Harley's in the middle of hers?
No. Or not, maybe. We don't know. Sometimes.
Yeah. So, but I want to establish like Vertigo's own thing. Vertigo was, for all his purposes, not super-care-related outside DC Continuity, although that's the rush. He was gifted and melded and becomes blurry line.
But boy did it. Thank you, Swamp Thing and Constantine. Yes, Swamp Thing, Hellblazer. The only one that like, the other one from that, that group that I say, or Sandman also.
Sandman's part of the universe now. Sandman was a major thing that took, I mean, not Sandman, but dream, Daniel Hall dream in Dark Knight metal. Yeah. So, yeah, that happened.
And it can't un-happen. Also, Carter Hall is a descendant of the original Sandman, who's also wrapped up in the Sandman mythology. That's also part of Vertigo. Vertigo is no longer like outside Continuity, not related to DC, even though for the most part, most of it is.
Heck, Jonah Hex too, had a whole Vertigo line, although he had magic powers in that, and we don't reference that part of his history. Right. But we all mean we also pre-chirp, which is also another huge Vertigo book. In so far, right now, not in Continuity, though we have seen references, I think, in- Do-words.
...to the Saint of Killers. Yes, Jonah Hex, at the end of the Paul Miali run, is like, yeah, hey, and that Saint of Killers guy. Yeah, like what? You're gonna just do that now?
Okay. And Paul Miali's like, no, it's reading this fucking book, but Joel, hey, Joel, I hope you like that reference. I did, Jimmy, thank you. I did, thanks.
Yeah, no. And that's pretty much how it feels. So Black Label was supposed to be more or less like a between the lines Vertigo, it's like a Vertigo- else-world hybrid. Yeah.
It was gonna be, you're the superheroes you know, but mine is the Continuity plus the prestige. And we can get away with more because, you know, these are gonna be aimed directly at adults, although that's kind of changing around too. Right, and deliberately and kind of meticulously mature, or at least mature in terms of readers and in terms of reading. What people call mature and what is actually mature is really a conversation I think we should have for another day, because usually when people try and sell you something is like, oh, it's mature.
Oh, so there's gonna be a lot of titties and blood in it, you bet. Right. And they really like kind of tried, I think, to set the stage or the tone for Black Label with Batman Damned, because of the context and the content of the first issue. Yeah, ooh, religion, we're being blasphemous.
Ooh, penises, look at them. Right. And if you want to get into a full discussion about Batman Damned and its implications, you should actually go check out our comic line episode and we talk all about that. By the way, personally, endorsed by one of the people who worked on that book.
So that being said, Black Label was supposed to be a hybrid of Vertigo and Elsworld's kind of, unless they wanted to also be an imprint to publish some of the more mature themed or some of the more adult oriented DC books of yesteryear. Which also gets weird too, because it's like, well, weren't you already trying to push weird envelopes over in your young animal imprint? Is that a sleep right now? Right, is Doom Patrol is Gritmore's and Doom Patrol a Black Label book?
Should it be? I mean, like, first of all, if you're gonna publish anything made from 30 years ago that pushed the envelope under Black Label, then yes, the damn thing should be a Black Label book. And in fact, that's not a bad idea, because most of the time, if you want to get Doom Patrol from Gritmore's and you gotta like, you gotta get the omnibus? Yeah, you do.
It'd be kind of cool if they published them kind of like, in disposable, inexpensive trades like these and just been like, Doom Patrol 1 through 12, you know? Who owns the rights to the invisible? Because I know that's getting turned into a show soon. Is that his own thing?
Does Morissen own all the rights to that? I think he does. I have to assume he does. Gritmore's and his shrewd and he knows his business.
So we talked about what Black Label was supposed to be. Because of the fallout from Batman Dam's controversy, and by the way, you know, suffice it to say the controversy was, for the most part, Prudition Simple. It was a nothing controversy, but a bigger blowback of that is to see how easily DC Comics kowtow bowed up and just, you know, gave up right out of the gate. Well, a lot of pressure came from outside.
It came from, I mean, and the reality is, like, I understand that, and it also doesn't bode well for the future of corporately owned media. Like, you can think about how like Disney, right? I get it. Okay, no one can smoke, nobody can bang in a Marvel book anymore.
Okay, that sucks. Like, that sucks. But you didn't erase the comics that had that in them. No.
And it is somewhat limiting because it means you have to have a list of things that you can't put into your books anymore. And also, they're toying with, you know, like the new Punisher book is from a cheer readers and they're toying with Marvel nights. But what if we put a little extra in here? Would people read this?
Would there be an audience for this? It seems that Disney doesn't really care about Marvel Comics at all. So Marvel can pretty much probably do whatever they want so long as it isn't so big or so impressive or so controversial that it will get the attention of late night talk shows. So long as it's not Star Wars Battlefront II where it's like, okay, you may have actually damaged the brand on this one.
Well, as long as we don't see Spider-Man's penis, I think Disney will pretty much leave Marvel Comics alone. Yeah, that's how it seems. And I get to you mention that, you know, external outside force was what made them do it. Really, it didn't seem like anyone was upset.
It just seemed like people were making fun of them. And that's what caused them to stop. Like, we don't want to be made fun of. This is a very serious imprint.
But that means it's very serious. I don't know if it was, I don't know what the impetus behind Warner Brothers' backlash was. But for me, I was actually, I remember when they announced Black Label, they were like, oh, this is going to be great because Warner Brothers is not trying to be kid-friendly, family-friendly. Sure, Warner Brothers is synonymous with Looney Tunes, but Looney Tunes has always been a little bit risque and a little bit more.
I'm a little pushing. So, you know, Bugs Bunny's were pretty edgy for their time. Exactly. Now, was it as you know for Bugs Bunny like, whip it out?
Not so good. But like, I digress, Warner Brothers is not trying to put a spit polish on the brand the way Disney always does. Although arguably maybe they are now because it's like Aquaman is a little softer and friendlier and Shazam is a little softer and friendlier now, and those are their next two big movie projects. True.
But that being said, I remember being so excited about what Warner Brothers was letting DC do. In a second that, any backlash was found of any kind. There was like these marching orders from down from on high that just said, quash this, delay that, nothing can, you can't do XYZ. We need to look closer at this.
God only knows if they hired a new person to like comb over every page, if like now Black Label books or DC books in general to go through some Warner Brothers corporate filter, if like there's a list of characters that can't fall under the purview of Black Label or Black Label related books or media. I actually thought of that with some of my pitches, actually. I kept a little of that mind actually. We are going to get to pitch it in a little bit, but we're still trying to like hash out exactly what Black Label is, where it's going and what it could be, so that it fits into the mold of what we're trying to accomplish.
It's like an autopsy and there's only been one issue. It's a post-mortem on Black Label and the damn thing has only one issue under it. Yeah, you tripped it the finish line guys, you had one job. That's the start line, not even the finish line.
Yeah, I think we are getting Batman Dandamour too pretty soon. I think it's before 2019, but it was supposed to come out months ago. I think it was going to be done by now. And I only thought that first issue was just okay too, looked really nice, but I just thought it was okay is a truly fun thing to me.
You know what, if you've ever read One, Bryan Has A Rela, Batman story, you've read every single Bryan Has A Rela story. So if you know what to expect from this, you're a Joker, you know exactly what this is. Joker, is that Black Label book? It should be.
It really should. Batman, Noel, I mean they have the same arc style. It's the same name universe practically. That was the most interesting part of Dandamour fans in their head, can I be like, well this kind of looks the same and it's written by the same guys, or these in the same universe they are now.
And I think that's fine as long as you know, because there's not much in Batman, Noel that really changes the kind of. There's literally three books in the continuity of that. And by the way, I think Bremejo wrote Noel. Yes, he did.
So that's a Rela. So that's a Rela. So that's a Rela, so that's a Rela, so like no. But either way, the point I'm trying to make here is we're looking at Black Label now and Black Label has become something else.
What is Black Label now? And I think basically it is a mature readers imprint. It is basically a TVMA sticker that they put on the book. Honestly, that's what it is now.
Yeah, that's pretty fair. And even then, I mean we'll have to get more books to really see what it is, but it's like, well they even live up to that TVMA thing, or is my theory true, did they take all this extra time off because they needed to erase all the dicks. I think that's exactly what I think they needed to take the extra time off because they didn't plan, which is a problem that every comic book company has every time they want to roll out with a new initiative. They know that they must, and it must be kind of exciting to work for a comp company because if you have an idea, six months later, the idea is real.
Oh yeah, you're flying by the CD of your pants all the time. Right, but the problem with that also lies in when, like you hire a AAA writer and then he wants to do your book and then everything changes and now you got to like your whole pitch goes into the garbage. Like your book could either be the newest, the latest amazing thing or then there's like a school shooting and now your book is totally controversial and before it comes out, so we got to table that thing maybe forever. It's very volatile.
I don't know if you watch Bojack Horseman, but they cover that actually super well a couple seasons ago, but only they did with the movie industry and just exactly what you're saying. It's like sometimes all the planets align and you get all the best creators and then sometimes one thing changes and you're screwed. I think that's exactly what comic books are. I think it's, I mean, like when it comes to planning for big things.
I think when it comes to events, they've, at the very least Marvel has figured this out, but they figured out for better or worse, by the way, like how to craft and execute an event in which everything and nothing happens all at once. They really are good at them. And it doesn't offend anybody. Like it'll offend you, the comic book reader, but it won't offend John Q.
I don't know what comic books are reading the New York Times. They want to offend the guy who's shopping at Walmart who sees those DC books on the lowest shelf underneath all the UGL cards. I think by the way, I need to do a whole show about that because I think it failed. I'm cool with that too.
I only got one and I got it because a fan sent it to me. I never found one. No, I bought the first run. I read them.
Most of them were reprints. I could not find like much in terms of original story and all of them. For me, it was a failure to get me to read more of them. I saw there were more of them now and I was like, I'm not buying these.
It very much didn't seem like it was meant for us. It was again targeting, you know, Joe and James Sicks Pack out there. But again, did Joe and James Sicks Pack pick them up and enjoy them? I must be like, we need to kidnap someone from a Walmart who just picked them up for the first time.
I was like, tell us what you think. I really need to do like an experiment because there's three Walmart's in my general vicinity that I can get to in relative convenience. I should get a post-it-out says, if you saw this, take like remove me and put on the front of like the sixth issue in that stack. And be like, just wait.
I'll tell you what, I'll fly out to Jersey for a month and we'll get this started. We'll work on this. This will be our like, what is it enclosed experiment? What do they call that?
Yeah, a control, if you will. Yeah, this will be our controlled experiment. We'll work on this one every day. We'll go out to the Walmart and just sit in a panelist van and be like, all right.
These DC books, I don't think so. When we see someone with a DC book, we'll grab them, we'll black bag and be prevented from in the van and then forth. And then ask them what they thought. So, black label for them.
I mean, you used to agree with me the idea of being the black label is more or less just like a Marvel Max. It's not even an imprint. It's basically just an excuse to not put an actual rating on the book. Yeah, which again, I never even thought that was much of a problem anyway, but apparently it was.
Right. So the question is, what could black label be now in this world of Warner Brothers doesn't want Cold Bear making fun of Batman? Yeah. Because that's really what it is.
I really do feel like because of how intrinsically connected Warner Brothers is with DC, Warner Brothers like because they are like a media giant when they saw other media people making fun of their like flagship characters. They should have personally. They should have checked themselves. So, what is black label?
Can black label be salvaged? I think it can be, but I think they're going to have to put a lot of work into it. And also, you're going to have to put out books because right now you ask me what black label is. For me personally, kind of a punchline because whenever I think about it, all I can think about is Batman's dick and DC Comics tripping over themselves to try and make it all okay and try to make it so they don't get made fun of.
But kills me and this is really more about Batman damned. I don't want to digress on it too long. But what kills me is what a wasted opportunity all that media exposure was to shine a light on a new imprint they were trying to make money off of. And they didn't capitalize.
What a wasted opportunity. You know, because Marvel is run by hustlers. Joe Casada is just a carnival barking hustler. Yes.
By the way, to his credit, Dude was on the Tonight Show selling Batman or Spider-Man books. Yes, he was. He was calling in every Hollywood favorite he had. Those Hollywood contacts usually dried up or they wound up making really, really late books or books never came out like your target.
But like he still got media exposure on these characters. No press is bad press and they live that Marvel. Exactly. DC had a golden opportunity.
Colbert's like, Batman's pain is low next week. Jim Lee on Colbert. Next day, Jim Lee on or Jeff Johns or anyone in some direct involvement with. Anyone you can put a camera on.
Go on Colbert. Go on. Maybe Colbert doesn't want you. He's like, no, I just want to make a punchline.
Fine. Seth Myers. Any other member of that media. If not, how about the YouTube community talking about it and blasting it out as much as you can.
But basically going out there and being like, yeah, you know what Batman's dick isn't this. And you can get it for the low low price of $7. And like, you only tell you a little about what black label actually is what we're trying to do. And yeah, you know what?
What a low hanging fruit it is for you to like gravity towards something that Europeans have no problem with. But Americans seem to be able to just titter and giggle every time they talk about it. Like, oh no, I didn't realize that you were born a eunuch or that you were like a kendall. Like, I didn't realize that dicks were a problem.
Like, yeah, let me. Yes, Batman, but do you expect to see every issue of Batman with his shawn? No, the fact is like, this book is for adults and it's a different kind of thing. And if you like plan that out or if you would at the very least try to get in front of it, you could probably have salvaged this line and maybe proven to the people at Warner Brothers that like this label has legs.
The third leg, Lowell, her heart. Now these days, until these stupid jokes. I actually, as a Rello, didn't get more upset about it because he's a prickly dude who usually shoots off at the mouth about everything. I guess he goes to show how much as a Rello actually cared about the project that he didn't even get incensed about it.
I got to tell you, having seen as a Rello at New York Comic Con immediately following the Batman Dand controversy, and I believe I saw him also at Baltimore, which is even closer to that, he was a... I anticipated, but Brian has to be a miserable bastard, right? Yeah. He defied expectations when it came to being a miserable bastard.
And I understand people who know it intimately, that was all because of Batman Dand in reaction. He was miserable and angry and negative. I want to say, based on his signatures of Batman Dand, he also modified his signature to be like, I don't know, fuck, it's just a line. It's not even close to a B or an A, it's just a line.
I'm killing you with my pen, that's how angry I am. And then this is useless and worthless to me. Screw you. Bermejo on the other hand was just like, just ready to fight.
Because he's like, I'm European, I do this. This is art, and you make freaked out. I feel bad about Azorello in terms of him being like, I was trying to say something, and the message wasn't even like, you misunderstood it, you weren't even listening. I know, and hey, if you're going to get mad at Azorello, get mad at him for things he deserves to get mad at for, like killing joke.
Yeah, right. Yeah, I mean like, we should talk about killing joke in a minute, because I have a thing about that. Before we do, transition to what black label should be, let's go into the Super Chats, Kane's world saying black label is becoming a huge disappointment. I like Superman All-Star, but I wouldn't consider that a black label.
No, that was the All-Star line. Yeah, that was his own thing that came in white in a blink of a night. Started out superman. Hey, this can do no wrong.
All-Star Batman. Oops. Yeah, oops. Talk about another one we screwed up almost right at the starting line.
It's true. What was it? Teodor, Sully, Engine. Helping us out with Super Chats.
Thank you very much, Teodor. James Robbins, I can't wait to hear your pictures. I know the stories will be dark, but they would be well written. Take notes, Brian, I'm like a medicine Tom King.
Being dope, y'all. Thank you so much, man. And Jan Kohler. Have to say I thought it was okay to show Batman Naked.
It's a mature book. So in my mind, that's okay. Anyway, that's my two cents. Love you guys show.
Thank you, Jan. I wonder if it had been anyone else who whipped it out in that comic. Had it been any other character, had it been anyone but Batman. I wonder if the controversy had been there.
Like as much. No, it was Green Arrow. It would have never happened. No, no.
The only way would have happened is if it was Batman and Superman, but the fact is black label wouldn't have shown that it had cajones if it wasn't Batman. They needed to make me splash. And what's so frustrating is this was it. This was your moment.
That was the splash. You take any opportunity, yes, they were pissing and moaning and they were making awful jokes. But this is the time. And I guess my guess is Warner Brothers just hamstrung them and said like don't you talk about anything?
Don't you dare make any kind of statement until the books are recalled. Until there's no proof that this book exists. It's radio silence on the penis. We have a no talking about penis policy at this company now.
Just Batman's. Just Batman's. Because Jeff John's loud. What was it?
Dr. Manhattan to be naked in the next month. That's right. And no one talked about that.
Good. Because for me I'm like good. Because I don't want anyone to talk about it. I want them to ruin it.
I don't want Dr. Manhattan to suddenly have underwear. The only time he should have underwear is when he's on the minute man. Is when he's like when he's trying to be in front of a camera.
Try to be human. Right. Like Dr. Manhattan wearing pants is a complete betrayal of the Dr.
Manhattan character. It's still kind of like nebulous to whether Doomsday Clock in and of itself is an affronted watchman. We'll see when the book is done. But at this point the least they could do is leave Dr.
Manhattan naked. It's funny that speaking of Doomsday Clock the new issue came out today. It had the least to do with watchman and it was actually my favorite issue of the series. That's funny.
I thought like was it me or the new Doomsday Clock? Like I read it in maybe like 12 minutes. Possibly. I was like I was like oh it's over.
And it's not. I think it was the most self-contained and also Firestorm got to do things. Yeah Firestorm or not. Or not possibly.
Oh yeah that would be a real packer. Like hey Firestorm got to do things. No it didn't. No that wasn't Firestorm.
So yeah let's see here. Apparently Taylor had a comment but it doesn't come up in the super chat here. Sorry. But I guess I can look for you.
You know what Danielle grab it for me and I'll read it later. Thank you Danielle. Thank you Danielle. So what can can can so black labels of a rating sticker.
What could it be? What do you want to be Joel? Again you know I would like something akin to marble maps. I would be like you know hey this is the mature in print.
This is where we can push boundaries. This is where we can say stuff. You know where we can actually make points. And also maybe it's you know where we can put some stuff that's kind of outside the box and a little weird.
That's why I like that. Like you know history of the DC universe heroes in a black label format written by a guy who doesn't traditionally write comics. I'm like okay this is fun. You're experimenting with the artist.
You're experimenting with the format. You're expanding what comic books can be as entertainment and reading material. I'd like to see more of that. Okay.
I think I'd like to see. Oh so I'm sorry. Apparently Taylor Dordelite is just a chat. You know he said his pitch is Nightwing turns up dead.
Bacheral has to solve the murder. It would explore some mental health stuff darker themes without a newity and swearing. Yeah I mean like these are the kinds of pictures that black label could take up. But then here's the thing and I like that idea and I'm glad you brought it up.
But for me a dark pitch for DC is basically just a DC book. It's true. Like here's a pitch that could work for black label in a big bad way. Sue Dibney is raped and murdered and then killed by Dr.
Leite. They're just saying like I think he crisis is a black label book. Yes. But it happened in DC kind of it's available in bookstores, comic book shops everywhere.
You could get it anywhere. And we had to label it. Oh hey. What a green arrow killed Prometheus and then went to jail.
Right. Like the idea of a dark story is nothing new. It's nothing new but certainly it doesn't like doesn't warn its own label. Like and if black label is just where we put the dark stuff then first of all everybody who pushed DC being really dark is still working at DC.
So it's not like DC is going to get family friendly and sunny all of a sudden. Nightwing's head was shot by a sniper bullet. Yes. And now he's an idiot.
So like these dark themes are still going to be ever present. And if you're going to make like black label something else then you got to have room. Like there's it's just everything like everything can fit under DC right now. If you're going to make an imprint you better justify the imprint.
You better do something different. I would just like stories with a beginning middle and end would be nice because obviously a lot of these dark turns are like yeah that dark menacing shit happened. Then we just had to live with it and some people liked it and some people didn't like it and then sometimes it got retconned away. I'd be fine with some dark shit happening if there was a resolution at the end of it and they're like and this was the moral of the story.
Right. That's fine. And it works. Like regular continuity is fluid and can get on done.
And often does. Yeah. So at that at the very least when you're doing a black label book or an else world's book or an out of continuity original graphic novel the stakes are higher because the stakes are both higher and lower because the stakes are higher because you know that or at least you believe that they're because of its own continuity the things that happen stay that way. But also you all you know that it's an imaginary story doesn't technically happen in the main continuity.
Yeah. But the story is compelling and good hopefully it doesn't matter. Like by the way Jan Kohler also saying something I want to see in DC is a true Lovecraft horror book and as a big Aquaman fan. Aquaman having to deal with Cthulhu be amazing.
They're scary shit under the water. I will say if you haven't read the drowned earth a dark Kraken emerges and threatens to like unmake reality or destroy the oceans or whatever. I'm really doing anything but still check it out if you're interested in like Lovecraftian horror. Although you know there is a morality in that book and it does pave the way for reality.
You know what I mean? Like you know what I mean? The Lovecraft is like nihilistic and apathetic and nothing matters and the universe can care about you and genuinely shitty. Right.
Drowned earth. It's a Snyder book that is not how the world works with Scott Snyder. And love in that universe. And self-sacrifice.
I quite enjoy drowned earth on that regard that the good guys didn't win just by punching the bad guys into submission. They won by building bridges and self-sacrifice and compassion. Agreed. I really dug that.
So for me and we'll sort of merge our ideas and then work our pitches into that. I want black label to be what it was supposed to be. But since that can't happen. Yeah.
Why not make black label a prestige format label that says these are the thing like these are books that are like this is where we're going to put our original graphic novels. Right. And it doesn't have to be it doesn't mean anything. Black labels just a silly put on original graphic novels that we don't rate.
All of our superman could come out and all of our superman not the book but all of our superman could come out of this version of black label easily but also so could Batman damned and it's more like you don't know what it's like a grab bag. I don't know what I'm going to get. All I do know is top tier talent original stories self-contained and and unrated and it's up to the author's discretion what like what that means. Right.
Now that does now what that also shouldn't mean is that it's uneditable is that it's written or isn't. I don't have it about myself. No no no there needs to be a measured steady firm hand at the helm raining in these stories you need a Karen burger you need somebody really knows talent story structure and how to manipulate talent into giving us something that is palatable but also challenging and new and interesting and original. Yeah you need a shot caller.
So and that's I think one of the big things behind black labels to why it kind of like why the legs fell off under it whose brain child is black label. We don't know and no one took credit for it. I believe Greg Kapulo came up with black label. Do you know?
Black labels also the name of a whiskey. Yes it is. And I do know that Kapulo loves his whiskey. And he loves his what is it black label society the band.
Yes. And he also like any I'm sure you all and he's doing a book for black but he also really wants to see I'm sure he wants to like take the caller off wants to like you know get left off the chain and do whatever he wants to do particularly and it's like sure I could do reborn but like I want to do a crazy ass batman story. I mean draw crazy batman images. Yeah and by the way that's not to label him as someone's feet under saying like where the idea of naming a DC imprint after what is essentially like a label you give to hard like liquor to you're basically saying with a black label line you have to be this agent or to buy the book.
I wanted to call it DC Thunderbird but they wouldn't allow me Thunderbird. Thunderbird why right oh I was gonna call it wild turkey DC but oh that's good too. By the way just jumping back into a super trampoline quick and saying to American alien style retelling of how Batman and Robin became partners they get a real care drama about people learning about kobotrama you might argue that all star Batman and Robin wonder is kind of that but with like a blunt instruments of a scalpel. Yeah you know actually tell that story but good you know more Robin reckoning please.
Yeah by the way all star Batman and Robin the boy Wonder black label book belongs there should absolutely be that. No doubt. Ryan Franklin black label is a great idea to capture and focus on the darker elements of the DCU but I feel as though it will devolve into an else world banner. If all we get out of this is else worlds back I'm fine because I like else worlds and I think it actually clearly demonstrates the reader what they're getting into it's not confusing but also it's something to get excited about.
Likewise. Tells Ryan's the Eligit, low-ball black label four six issue miniseries would be good. Would be rock yes. Make a comedy.
I don't like low-ball but I think the Keith Giffon, low-ball stuff would be a great black label thing and that's the other thing that I think black label should be. This should be the imprint where we put our darker edgier stuff. The stuff that actually does push the envelope more or less black label should also be our band books label. Yes our curated like here's stuff that we weren't 100% sure about re-releasing but if we really release it under the black label banner we'll be more comfortable.
Exactly. I think that anything could be that long bo hunters could be black label killing jokes to be black label like everything I think it is. I think it is too I think they're actually releasing it but like by the way if you do buy any killing joke edition get the absolute hardcover the absolute hardcover should also indicate to you what I really want black label to be because here's the thing Batman damn got to play with the format the actual like printing of the book is oversized and more rectangular it's also thicker and it has a nice spine it's just if they play with format you need to play with that. Which made our job editing the book a lot harder but that's first world youtuber problems.
Right but I love that idea I want them play with it more I don't like the Frank Miller horizontal format but I also but I like the idea of behind it which is playing with with with a look of a book and playing with the format of comics you look at this by the way there is something that this book does which is incredible and I want to see them do it maybe with black label you can't afford to do it with anything but an absolute addition because of the nature of this but with with dealing with with killing joke you get the whole book right okay here it is and it's got the awful new Brian Boland colors in it if you flip after that it moves on to the original killing joke with the original colors in it but get this by the way John Higgins is the colors it's on the original paper with the original. Oh I did not know that. So they'll come out the way they're supposed to be also getting this fun like old school paper feel black label should do this not the whole book all the way but rather like with two different paper styles but if like you're doing a book and you're like I really need the grip of the old paper you printed on the old paper if they can do it they should do it and not for no reason but try these and these try these conventions like push the envelope black label shouldn't just be like I put this this PNG over the cover of this old book we have and then I printed it it's just like the old book but it's just got a new logo on it don't do something with it if you're gonna reprint killing joke put out two versions of black label the old colors with the old paper and the new colors of the new paper I don't know I mean I don't make comics I'm not a publisher but like give people a reason give people a reason to buy it again so but that's another thing so I think if we can merge those two ideas especially since we know that they can't be like it's unrated yeah they're not gonna do that no and we know they're not gonna do that because of the heavy delays we know that like damned it didn't come out because we knew there was gonna be more nudity in it and they had to change the art and you know the plans were changed and because of the pushback from the artists I'm sure it was hard oh yeah to get them to redraw panels or to get their permission to and by the way it's nebulous to like how much permission you need from an artist for hire but the fact is it's easier it's harder now to like screw over an artist than it was 30 50 years ago yeah but like with because then like you know vermello could come out and be like I don't endorse this bullshit you changed my art it's not what I put out like you changed everything also to the age of the Internet like hey you guys want to see the original pages here they are right I'm just gonna put them out on Twitter for anyone who wants to see them so you had to work out a deal with these artists to say we have to change it you have to change it I need new versions of it from you or at least permission to give it to other artists that we have who can change it like casting a stupid shadow over it or you know like covering it with a conveniently potted plants or something why there's so much plug in this new issue now and that's a thing like as a comic fan I'm used to the convenient fog smoke forever like I've never not experienced it so to see it again I'm like right on that's yeah that's how I was gonna print this book but to know they could have done it and they had to cover it that sucks it's a little lame we're gonna get super chats and we're gonna pitch our books Mr. Kiggles hey guys guess who's back coke's here for life right on Mr.
Kiggles cheers Christian Ariza as a fan of Deathstroke I feel like he doesn't get enough credit having a darker backstory than Batman with a lot of potential for even darker stories Joel I'm sure you agree with that yeah and in fact again you want to talk about black label what Chris for Priest is doing should definitely be black label I would say it's the only DC book out right now that really should only be read by adults because there's some fucked up things that happen in that mainline Deathstroke but again I think much like Jimmy Palmiani with Joni Hack that's fine no one's really reading this who's not already a fan I can just write whatever I want exactly and that's the thing like if no one's looking at it and it comes out then it's pretty much then it then you can play ball right like then it's good to go and they have and so if Batman Damned didn't catch the fire that like even it just sold well and instead of like catching the attention to people it would have just been a book it wouldn't be a problem we'd be talking about this later yep cam hot pitch every black label book should have a ridiculous two foot long fold out page like all star Batman and Robin because rule why not you know it's funny I guarantee the only reason I got away with it because two people worked on that book Frank Miller said I want to do it and Jim Lee's like I want to draw it and that's what I got through there's no way a publisher wants to make those off oh yeah oh definitely and Mr. Giggles Allen have a Coke didn't coke a black label it didn't he yes right here but yeah so Joel I know you've been chambered a bit what what do you what do you want to put out from DC's black label the new black label new black label that the E.E. black label yeah black label XL right but yeah I had a couple pictures here at least two of these are ones that I mentioned in other episodes but I actually flashed out and tried to like write into something that I think would fit black label nice because that's where this whole thing came from by the way this is month of Elsworld's we're doing like redemption and revisiting old episodes and being like here's what we promised you about a couple years ago but didn't get anything most definitely the first one I call our man in the dope sick nation and if you're a fan of the vice show dope sick nation that's where I took a lot of reference from basically we check on in with Rex Tyler jr. the son of the original Rex Tyler who is inherited the suit but more importantly than that he's inherited the super drug that gives our man his powers but only for an hour Miraclow oh nice good use a miracle Miraclow so he's inherited the costume he's inherited that and Rex Tyler our man he's a joke in the superhero community they don't let him join the justice they think he sucks they're like well you're alive he only have powers for an hour what if our mission goes longer than an hour right no super team wants him so he's actually taken to the streets of Florida of all places where there of course in real life is a massive opioid epidemic okay and it's killing people and there's a brand new drug that's hit the street that is incredibly addictive and wouldn't you know it it's a lot like Miraclow it gives you an incredibly dangerous high but only for an hour and no superhero is dealing with this problem because they're too busy fighting costume criminals they're too busy stopping bank robberies to Rex Tyler takes this upon himself to try and deal with this problem and why yes the evil pharmaceutical company that's making this and pushing it on doctors and everything all of the opioids yes it's a corrupted version of Miraclow of course it is of course yeah that's how it has to work yeah why wouldn't it be and it's a story that I want to take a look at addiction and problems that superheroes just don't fight and just don't deal with in comics anymore and also I wanted to deal with the idea too that for Rex being a superhero that's an addiction too that's destructive in his life right that's a really cool idea hey listen like it's a great opportunity to tackle addiction and also do it with a lens of a superhero story I think that's it definitely features the the black level themes that we're going for here it would be a great way to work in other heroes who have maybe had drug problems before like maybe our man ends up finding Roy Harper in this universe because again we can do whatever we want and it's not main continuity he's still doing drugs and our man's like what the hell man you were a sidekick you were a titan you're a hero and now you're shooting up in an alley what the hell right right and so he takes him in and tries to rehab him and everything and we see like the transformation of like how hard it is for people to quit and how easy it is to fall back again if you've watched the show dope's Ignatian on vice it's really good okay oh yeah yeah good show it for me you know black label could be a place for it should be a place where it's like original graphic novel stories and reprintings of controversial stories like we talked about a couple of those stories I'd love to see revisited reprinted and maybe getting another chance at life another shot in the arm I'd like to see like what was it a white knight got the chance to be a black label book immediately but adding a little more like I said to give it some kind of legitimacy maybe like justifying selling the damn thing that this is high-minded yeah put denionial hard traveling heroes in there that's what I'm saying I want to see like the green arrow green lantern speedy heroine story in a graphic novel published by black label with some sketches some original script notes some kind of like behind the scenes back and forth maybe a lovely forward you know what they don't do any really forwards and afterwards by people who work on the damn thing that's true you know denionial would love to write a forward oh no doubt that's not the end of denionial I'd love to see like a retread I'd like to see a revisit of like venom for example a Batman venom another story about addiction and drug use and everything like that make it part of a collection the DC tackles drugs collection on black labels I think that might be a little more controversial than they wanted to be but I like the idea of them tackling you know real world issues and in a real like mature way tons of Titan stories to again Titans was the first comic that dealt with Runways by saying hey kids if your home life is really bad don't go back home right I would love to see them reprint and like maybe recolor but like I'm really iffy about that a death in the family yeah there's another big one I'd love to see Emerald Twilight maybe the Ron Mars era there's a couple stories and they're like kind of edging and cool that like maybe with a with with another pass might have actually found new life or maybe if it was engineered towards an original graphic novel format it might have actually worked a little bit less funny and juvenile and of course identity crisis I think could have also become a black label but because it's part of the city can like you know what like whatever part just the fact that three jokers is canon and also black label means that black labels mean anything so yes sure that blows my goddamn mind I know um Taylor Pecher has a good one he says I want to do Renee Ron to work Mon toia question book by Greg Rucker and Derek Robertson I don't have a whole pitch but I just want to see that and also it would be a hundred steam up it's true just put that team together and they'll give you gold because clearly they had years worth of ideas they never got to write a question book lends itself to a black label story on unquestratively no joke instantly tells my own Z dark side black label maybe a fight with his dad dark side me neat new gods black label book that's just a pitch on self although I guarantee you mr miracle be a black label book yes in fact I think it was supposed to be much of that in white knight they were supposed to be there you go and Sam Anderson Arkham psychiatry using their knowledge of the villains to survive a mass breakout one night each issue focusing on doctrine villain also would be cool called arkam breakout uh love it so yeah what else we got Joel all right so here's another one that I mentioned before but I didn't really flesh out till now I call this one jsa dr fate dementia okay is what I call this one it's basically kent nelson you spent his entire adult life serving the lord of order Naboo but uh even though his body is willing his mind is slowly deteriorating with age he has all simers but he also has amazing power uh of magic to warp universes and because of that he's becoming a danger to himself and those around them the the trinity is sent in to deal with this problem but he doesn't recognize any of them so they figured damn if we got to get through to him we got to go find his old friends on the jsa and so they got to go to the retirement homes and wherever else old people are to get them and this kind of becomes a battle of like the greatest boomer generation and the new generation and then kind of blaming each other for what's going on here where it's like you know why why haven't you been watching your friend kent nelson you know didn't you think this would be a problem letting a lord of order in and doing all this other stuff and they're like oh we're sorry uh shouldn't you have been looking up on him shouldn't you have been looking up at all of us you just stuck us in homes and retirement communities as old superheroes when we work good anymore right a generational conflict story is like right for the picking and definitely would resonate with readers at this point I think that's absolutely a great idea I think that would be stalling then it gets into the whole like okay well we got to get the helmet off and first off which is gonna be really difficult and then we got to pick a new dr fate we kind of also make it like a what choices we make that impact the next generation and you know how do we put right what once rent wrong that sort of thing yeah absolutely I think that uh you know certainly you need here's the thing you need to have those tentpole characters to sell the line you can't just have like uh you can have like little bit like it's crazy pick it up I promise that dr fate story is gonna sell I can just a marshmallow story that's mature and has like dixon is gonna be awesome like you got to go buy the damn thing first that's why you lead with jail air jsa on front right and that's a thing like I would love to see like maybe a revisit of the of um what was it called uh tower babble yeah or or something more like more original something like it can't just be this is where we stick the books that came out 20 20 40 years ago then you know get new life it's also a place where like original stories can come and blossom um who although a serious house and serious earth needs to come out soon yeah I would go on I just solid one yeah it's interesting do you have any um do any female empowerment stories yes I do actually I'm quite proud of this one actually so I call this one the wall journals is what I call this one yeah okay and it deals with ovary waller the now adult daughter of task force exes founder amanda waller her mother has just passed away she's cleaning up her house and she finds amanda waller's secret journal where she wrote about her entire career starting out as a civil servant to working for the government to eventually working on uh what is it task force ex and it's filled with all of her most deepest thoughts and feelings and again it's like you know first loves you know what was her sex life at that time you know did she ever feel bad about what she did to these criminals did she ever you know a falter in this did she ever want to do anything else you know why why did she end up alone who was this girl's father etc etc and you know we build this into a bigger story as well to have been like well why did I only find this journal now wait is my mother trying to tell me something from beyond the grave right is this am I is she still manipulating things from beyond the and the big twist at the end it's like I was fucking with your daughter I'm not actually dead but I am dying and I want you to become the new head of task force acts I want you to take up this job for me now that you've read my journal and understand a little bit more about me and always have the hang question like was any of that real enough of it was real yeah just enough to get you to listen to me to find to find where I was hit out that was your final test I've actually been grooming you your whole life you just didn't know it right and all the times I was cruel and being a shitty mother this was actually just part of my far greater ploy and ultimately the daughter will decide do I want to live this life that my mother lived or do I want to like strike out on my own and you'll stop the cycle right and you leave it there you don't even find out like or at least you leave it where you can interpret it one way or another way yeah that's where you leave it that's absolutely Sally read my mind Greg the mage saying Superman falls early but lands on Themyscara where Steve Trevor and other men are slaves Steve hides the baby and raises it to fight World War a Wonder Woman and Wonder Woman and Superman war four years or war four years there you go interesting Superman Lanyotham scares like where is that story you used to be shot he's been a green lantern he's been everything else you're shocked that isn't an else world story that's the kind of thing they would have done at least in 1995 if not that's unbelievable they haven't done yet um but yeah so uh those are those are just a couple of like that scratched the surface I think more and more will like the opportunities arise the funny thing is for me any stories that like might come up come for me could be pitches in the main book it's true like the the the water story I think is like the most black label for me because it's like it's a future story takes place yes timeline you don't need to like age everybody up um you can't you know you're not gonna sit in the futures end universe or something god no you actually could do that and explore it and you can do kind of like a daredev line of day story where it's like we don't really we kind of check in a little bit on a couple of characters before the most part like we're not it's not gonna be like that means not gonna hijack this book we're not gonna turn it into something else like this is what it is yeah um Joshua Wright I wanted uber violent wonder woman story in ancient Greece right why the hell not Wonder Woman arena yeah I know that uh Wonder Woman was supposed to be uh I know that they were thinking about a black label for her for me the other thing was I remember like people example of like oh no I want to see Wonder Woman naked or whatever out of all the DC heroes Wonder Woman being naked is the most sensible one since she lives on island of women and has a grecian sensibility yeah it's frustrating that you're not gonna get that although if you look really closely at Dark Knight 3 the master race she's topless in that book yes but don't tell Warner Brothers don't tell nobody Taylor Pester knowing that batwoman has trouble holding a solo series I think your character lends well to black label plus that might be able to bring Jay Williams the third at least to draw it ah that'd be nice I'd like that a lot yeah yeah absolutely I mean elegy is basically a black label book right no you're absolutely right like I remember reading that and being like is this even a kind new idea it doesn't look like it is yeah I'm sure it wasn't planned to be so for me you know my pictures are more about like what can you do with what was there and I want to see and Joel's gonna roll out with the new stuff I will come up with some more black label pictures as we go but for now for me I just wanted to see a couple of these books get new life and come back into the forefront maybe with like a spit polish in Afterward and intro script notes sketches you know for me putting out killing joke back when black label was supposed to be an unrated thing you get the original like a uh bolan art back in there yeah make it a director's cut version with all the all the really negative or horrible juicy details and I feel like there's probably a lot more of those oh no doubt we knew that white knight was supposed to have them and they sure as hell ain't this book saying glad they want it maybe include some essays too that'd be fun absolutely um you know it's cool this is more talking about like my education background but like literary criticism was a thing that um if you ever like read the great you know literary critics of year they would write these like long 20 to 40 to 70 to 100 page prose stories or not stories more like essays that were just total indictments and critiques of other people's criticism of either work or criticism and that's all on youtube yeah exactly I would love to see that brought back or brought into the comic world it doesn't have to be graphic you don't have to draw it I'm just saying I would love to see a collection of essays by Grant Morrison I'd love to see a book that is a collection of response of like question response analysis an essay reaction of like Frank Miller Grant Morrison or absolutely you know any or as a rello versus somebody you know uh bendess you know just just any number of prominent comic book creators I love it I love it to death and if you wanted to be high minded and adult oriented which we do that's high minded and adult oriented yeah but like hey here's a crazy idea for black label there isn't a picture in it it's just essays written by the people who write the books you write and that being said that's death and it ain't gonna sell that's why you but that's why you sell it for cheaper you or you make it like a badge exclusive because like the fact is I mean like no one watches interviews with creators on youtube and you don't have to read them things which I think does my friggin head in because I love creator interviews no one wants to know like where the stuff they love comes from which for me I don't when it comes to story structure like I don't care about like who Yoda was before he meets Luke on take a but like I love to know what went into a creator's head I'd love to just you know cameras know microphones I'd love to sit with Frank Miller and just ask him questions like dark night returns and I guess we're just wired differently you and me so I know I think a lot of people know they would like to see that even if they don't if they're unconscious of it people would love to I think they if they had the opportunity where they would they would freak out you know um certainly I've seen it those opportunities squandered when I see people like oh it's like Dan Slaughter some other character creator who they disagree with if they love and be like here's my book and then they sign they go bye I'm like whoa they're right there yeah I know I know that'd be really cool um but uh but that's it we're at a time ladies and gentlemen thank you so much damn with us before I wrap up I do want to jump into the super chance because a couple more left um Heartless Fang what'd it be cool to see bats in a kind of luther role the wanes in Metropolis instead of Gotham Elsman's book that but that's another pitch we should do like Elsworld's bring back Elsworld's just dear DC bring back Elsworld's yeah and Keith One-shot hero transitions uh MTF and deals with these changes yeah oh yeah massively that's a great pitch for it most definitely seriously that's I mean I think and I think that's coming I don't think it's I don't think we're here yet but I think it's on its way I think you will see it in our lifetime you will see that but one day I mean we never thought we'd have such a positive forward thinking Muslim hero at Marvel and now we do I bet we'll have a trans hero in our lifetime literally there are Kamala Khan Halloween costumes in Target and Walmart warms my god damn art crazy I was like I can't believe we're seeing this to me and apparently Spider Gwen Ghost Spider is gonna be huge this year after that movie I am not surprised um but yeah we want to thank you all so much for hanging out with us and of course let us know your DC black level pitch in description below or in the comments section below this video I'll do that I still have like several I know I'm sorry we have to do on sequel that's all right but uh listen uh before you go go to patreon.com slash comic-pop and check out the sister show to the show one shots which is the then off show from here else world exchange and find out more stuff about here comic-pop we do a lot of stuff over there um and if this is your first time with visiting the show be sure to like this video subscribe to our channel and click the bell for more notifications and hang out with us then we'll see you then next week with another episode else world exchange amazing enough keep doing these every week 250 shows I don't remember how many episodes there are there's 150 we're almost at we're almost at 250 the original Pokemon I was thinking of uh of off the rack we're at like 255 or something oh wow but it's nuts but thank you so much for watching and hanging out with us we'll see you next time I'm Sal I'm Joel hello good bye