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Hello everybody and welcome to the Elle's World Exchange. I'm Sal and joining me as always is Joel from Cape Joel. Joel, thanks for being here, man. Oh, always a pleasure.
Originally, we were going to have a conversation about something fun and kind of goofy and then I thought, now let's do something heavy and it'll make people mad at me. It's always nice. I mean, you got to balance it out. We had two fun, happy ones in a row, so we had to do one, kind of serious.
It's true. And the fact is, while the title might have made you come over here thinking I was going to crap over Marvel Studios, hopefully that is not the case. It's just a way to get you to come over here. So we can join in the conversation and talk about this topic that I kind of picked out of the ether.
It was because we'd just done a live spoiler cast episode about Spider-Man Homecoming over on another show that we do. And we were talking about how this is kind of the only Marvel Cinematic Universe movie coming out until we remember the Thor Ragnarok was coming out. And Defenders on TV as well. And Defenders.
And we were also talking about how Spider-Man is going to be featured in Infinity War in Infinity War Part II and Spider-Man Homecoming. And who's going to be the other superhero in Spider-Man Homecoming too? Is it going to be Cap or maybe Captain Marvel or maybe somebody else? Could be Doctor Strange.
And then it occurred to me. There's a lot of Marvel stuff happening right now in the cinematic variety. And so I asked the question, or beg the question that is to say, is Marvel Studios overextending itself? Or are they in danger of doing so?
And let's talk about that because it's not a question easily answered. And it's not one I'm just throwing out there like yes or no. I'm sure people in the comments will offer that anyway. But I'm interested in delving into it.
And here's my reason for being concerned. Or maybe why I'm begging this question. When you think about those who make really quality stuff, a couple of things come up. You think about Pixar.
You think about Paul Thomas Anderson. You think about Quentin Tarantino. Or any of those numbers. Of course A.Z.
And even then, but there are a couple of dips and dives throughout anyone's career. Even if you're like Blue Cats James Cameron. But there's a lot of examples of almost totally pristine runs. Particularly when we're talking about movies.
We're not going to talk about Marvel Comics right now. It's a whole other topic. It's a whole other topic. And while there is an inherent connection between Marvel Studios and what they do and Marvel Comics and what they're doing.
I don't want to get into it. I just want to talk about what Marvel Studios slash Marvel celluloid is doing. Because you think about like when someone has kind of an unblemished career. One thing kind of remains constant.
And it's a lot of gaps between the first great thing they did and the next great thing they did. Right. At the right. Simon Pegg combo movies.
Excellent example. You know, there's not a lot of them. I think there's what for if you count space is one big long movie. And I think Paul was supposed to be in a great movie.
But he had to do something else. Probably Scott Pilgrim. You can tell it was because it had all the hallmarks. But none of the Edgar writing is to it.
It's true. They lacked that edge. But was still a fun movie. But that said, there's a lot of gaps between the time.
Even if you have something like Pixar. Where it's like, I mean, it takes years to make these freaking movies anyway. You're going to have time consuming. Exactly.
So if you're, I mean, it's funny. It occurs to me when it comes to animation. Like if you're going to make something and you're going to animate it. Or particularly if you're going to do something over Pixar.
You know, by the time you're thinking about how the physics work on a blade of grass in your movie. You better have a damn tight script and have your whole concept all wrapped up. And so when a Pixar movie comes out and it sucks or isn't as great. It's kind of a cars.
Yeah. It's kind of a calamity or a colossal stamp on your heart because you're like, a lot of work went into this. And yet, yes, everyone. I know cars actually is really successful in terms of merchandise.
And it ends up paying for the better, more interesting projects and last is a gear head himself. And that's why those movies keep getting made. But come on. I mean, in fact, is, you know what, paid for Pixar movies, Pixar movies, paid for Pixar movies.
And the word of mouth and the and just the quality every creator you ever going to talk to was going to say, you know, I don't have like a trick for how to get noticed, but I will tell you the cream rises at the top. If Toy Story hadn't been, I mean, like Toy Story was going to be a success regardless because Disney hadn't had any really major successes at that time. And, you know, there weren't any really big children movie competitors for it. But the fact is movie being brilliant and beautiful was really what sold that thing.
Anyway, that said, there's a lot of space between these movies, but there's considerably less space between the next Marvel thing to the point where it's almost inundated with Marvel properties. And so we're almost getting a new one every month. Exactly. It used to be.
We got one every other year. I mean, like, let's look at the list right now. Iron Man comes out 2008. The Incredible Hulk came out same year.
It did, which is hard to believe and incredible Hulk is kind of that forgotten one. Yeah, but then and kind of as a consequence of Hulk kind of being dwarfed by the success of Iron Man between Iron Man two and four, one year. You know, you got Iron Man two, you got nothing after Iron Man and Incredible Hulk in 2008 from 2009. You got a whole gap, a whole year where you're like, God, I hope Iron Man comes out on DVD soon so I can watch it again.
Then 2010 Iron Man two, then 2011 Thor, then around the same year, Captain America and then the next year, Avengers. So while they were giving you a movie or two every year, that was kind of it. You know, Marvel hadn't gotten their druthers yet. They're like, we're just building, we're just making our money.
And it was hard to think about the fact, it's hard to spell the fact that like, would they be nearly as gung-ho then? As they are now if they had had a major studio behind them or if they had lots and lots of money? Or if they had even had a failure is the thing. Yes, that's the other thing.
And of course, everybody talks about the growth of Marvel Studios kind of being owed to betting the farm on it. Yeah, it's true. They put it all on red and let it ride. Yeah, but in comparison, like look at like Quentin Tarantino movies when he's directing that is to say.
I mean, like you got what's it called? Pulp Fiction 94, Jackie Brown's really the next big one. I mean, he worked on four rooms and stuff, but nobody cares about that one. I do, but that's regardless.
Then Jackie Brown, 1997, nobody watches it or likes it. I freaking love Jackie Brown. I know, but as far as movie going audiences are concerned, Jackie Brown is kind of a dud. Dude, Samuel L.
Jackson with his little like twisty beard and everything. If I could pull that look off, I would. Oh my God, you totally would. You would do that.
I'd be like, you got a shave man, don't do it. You are not Samuel L. Jackson, you are not, or rent the hall. Then six years later he makes Kill Bill.
And then the seventh year later Kill Bill, part two, which is the same movie. I don't consider that the same thing. And then there's nothing until really death proof in 2007, 2009. You got a glory spaster and it all goes down over there.
A little bit arguably. I mean, for me it is, but like, look at that. I like parts of Django and I definitely like, what is it, hateful, eight more than I like Django, but it's a whole thing. I like Django more than hateful, eight, but I like the look of hateful, eight more than I like the look of Django.
And now he's doing a Charlie Manson movie. Whatever. So it's weird for him, doesn't it's like, but lots of people have made Charlie Manson movies. They've already kind of torn Tino'd up the Charlie Manson genre.
I don't know what the real Torrentino can bring to it. I don't know. I don't know. Somebody mentioned I forgot about Reservoir Dogs.
I didn't forget, man. It was more like it was an indie movie and it didn't really get played in a lot of theaters and it didn't. It was not the big thing. It was his first movie, dude.
So chill out. Anyway, the fact is, when it comes to all this time, all this effort, all this attention to detail, there's no way that Iron Man would work if they didn't put all the time effort and thought into it, right? Then, or no, go ahead. I was going to say I was going to move on to the main point, but please, let's take a break.
Well, no, you go to the main point and I'll come back with my rebuttals. In comparison, obviously, it blew up. It's in Marvel Mania. Everyone's really excited.
Marvel splits off, starts making TV shows. You've got Shield and all the Defenders, Ancillary shows. Daredevil, Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, The Defender Show, The Punisher Show. You've also got Agents of Shield, which I mentioned before, but Agent Carter is a spinoff show.
The Inhumans coming out. You also have The New Warrior Show is just cast. Cloak and Dagger is going to be a show in humans as well, too. The IMAX and a show.
And there had been rumblings of potential damage control series. I think that's dead now, but they did you up in Spider-Man. Yeah, and I would have loved to have seen a damage control show. The lady looked exactly like the lady from the comments.
She sure did. I was like, whoa, that was amazing. All the characters to jump off the page. I bet you didn't think it was going to be the damage control lady.
The damage control lady. But look at the world today and all the Marvel stuff that's coming out, or has come out. And you're thinking to yourself, like, okay, part of the reason why Marvel is so successful and it works so well, is because, and a lot of people will say this because of Kevin Feige. Mm-hmm.
Oh, he's been instrumental for sure. He's been the figurehead of all of this. Yeah, and over on the TV side, Jeff Loeb. Yeah, but you don't see near as much as Feige.
No, and his career has a couple of really, really big awesome trophies and a few others. Yeah. And, but when it comes to Kevin Feige being kind of like instrumental in the quality control and everything, how can the dude be as effective now as he was almost ten years ago? When things were smaller.
When things were smaller when they were focusing on fewer projects and just making those few projects even bigger and better. My answer to that would be is that, you know, we talk about all the time it takes in between, you know, a lot of great projects. I would say a lot of that is spent on world building, and my thing I would answer to that is one of the greatest things about the Marvel Cinematic Universe is they have built a world. Literally, half of the work is done for you when you come into make a new Marvel movie.
True that they built a world, I think Spider-Man is one of the few projects coming out of Marvel Studios slash TV that is really capitalized on or used effectively that world building instead of like... You couldn't have had it if you did not for the stuff that came before. That would not have been the same movie. But this one feels more like, it will feels very lived in.
Spider-Man Homecoming really does feel like it's cut from the same cloth, but at a later date which is really cool. They really did lay the groundwork for where this movie came from. And in and of itself it's building its own universe by doing their own thing. By virtue of the fact the character is wholly unique and has its own history and characters associated with it.
So yeah, while I do appreciate the world building, thank you TEXOO. It feels surprisingly good show once I gave it a chance. I agree with you my friend. I agree that Agents of SHIELD was a surprisingly decent show.
There were some dips in quality I think over time, but I think that the most recent season was like engaging in its health. And while it was predicated on the world building of Marvel, it was certainly not dependent on its world building. Even though you kind of wish it were, they're doing stuff over there that got the L&Ds. They got the Dark Old, they got the Asian Carter stuff, how in commandos and all the deep hydrogen.
There was stuff going on over there that they were making that can't or won't be used or at least acknowledged over here. Over in the Marvel Cinemas and Out of the Universe. And they got fucking Powers Boot who showed up both in the movies and in what is it SHIELD as the same character. You got a lot of crossover sift showed up in the show.
That's right, Chita and Cree, we saw Cree Warriors. Oh and you got the Absorbing Man in the Aces to SHIELD. But this I think is illustrative of a problem where it's like if your house is not in order, it's not going to work as well. Or it's not going, you can see that there is a little bit of a quality change between where it was and where it is.
And while I'm not saying in any way that Marvel today, Marvel Studios, Marvel TV is worse than it was 10 years ago, certainly not. But it is expansive and I think the real bottom line or the concern associated that I have that I'm bringing up is that there's room for failure. There's more opportunity now. And I don't mean just because it's been around for a while.
I mean because you have so many things being worked on. You've so many things. You built the house of cards larger and larger. Right.
I mean like if your house is shorter, you know it's going to be lower to the ground, it's going to be easier or harder to knock over. The taller and wider it gets, the more opportunities there are for some fucked up cards. And I'm not saying that, and by the way, in all of my examples of quality shit that's going to be worse than the other ones. I mean, I think it's going to be a lot of quality shit that took the time that in fact still take the time to make sure that every aspect of what they did is great.
There are a couple of exceptions. We mentioned a couple of them. Django. And by the way, for some, that movie is one of his best movies.
That's fine. That's what it's all about. It's subjective. I really don't like at the world's end or the world's end.
Really? I think it demonstrates a real dip for Edgar Wright's Simon Pegg combo. I don't think it's really even a dip of quality, but I think it was more like, screw this and then they just burned their house down. And see, I go Hot Fuzz, Worlds, and then Sean of the Dead.
But see, that's the thing about art. It's very subjective. And I go Hot Fuzz, Sean, and really it's more like Hot Fuzz, Sean, like they're right up against each other because Sean is so great and so wholly unique, but that's the thing. It was original.
I think that comes down to what genre you prefer. I prefer cop movies over zombie movies. So of course, I would appreciate the parody deconstruction of a cop movie. Naturally.
That's zombie movie. Absolutely. But like I said, like, you know, we mentioned cars. Monsters University wasn't particularly as well received as its predecessor, certainly.
And I like University too. Right. I didn't even bother. It actually fairly solid.
Like, yes, it falls into a lot of the prequel traps, but outside that they actually tell a pretty good college story. I think parts of Monster University, but I couldn't bother. That's the thing. It used to be there was time.
If the new Pixar movie came out, even if I don't necessarily find the premise that interesting, I guess I'll go see it. And more often than not, I was really surprised by how great it was. Or I was contented by how terrific it was. But inside out, I was not interested in the premise.
And there you were, we've argued this before. And there had been a couple of cars since then. And I was like, yeah. I don't want to bother anymore.
Did they do planes tours? No, that wasn't them. But Disney certainly wanted you to think. Yeah, I'm glad I really did.
But that's the thing is that like, there's too many, there's a lot of opportunities for more. The more you do, the more blemishes are inevitable, even with Netflix originals. Everybody, I think that everybody agrees, even if you're not the biggest Daredevil fan, the Daredevil's a quality show. They made a pretty decent thing.
Some of them really don't like season two compared to season one. I think it builds all of it. It works really well. But everyone kind of agrees, at least on some level, that out of all four of them.
The Iron Fist probably wasn't the biggest and best one. Even if you liked it, I think it's safe to assume. Yeah, that was probably the odd man out of these. But I think another great thing about the Marvel Cinematic Universe is even when they do kind of fall, even when they do have an Iron Fist or Thor the Dark World or Iron Man 2, that's okay.
Because you know we're going to get another one. We can fix it. We can redeem this in the next one is what we can do. We can absorb a failure.
We can take it. Yeah, no, but that's the thing is that like, why have any failures? Like, why leave yourself open to the possibility for failure? When the law of averages, I mean, you're not going to hit a homerun every time.
Right. Right. Well, expecting a homerun every time is probably foolhardy. I should want to.
But you should always be working for that homerun. You should always be training. You should always be in the batting cages. You should always be going to the scrimmages.
You should always be trying to be the best you possibly can be. I think that, and this is maybe telling me something to me myself, my self-decoritism. I think that Dr. Strange represents the hubris of Marvel Studios in the week and probably skip a couple of game days and still probably knock it out of the park.
I think Dr. Strange is a solid movie. And if it was the first Marvel Cinematic movie, it would have been unbelievably great. Oh, I'm sure it would have been.
In the context of everything that came before and how many really, really wholly unique and terrific things there are, Dr. Strange seems kind of like, okay, I guess that's, you did a nice job. Like, did you get Dr. Strange's character right?
Kind of. That's 65, 85%, maybe. But as far as everybody else, I mean, I certainly want to talk to people even people. They were like, so it's just Iron Man with magic in it.
And I'm like, that is oversimplification, sir or madam. But is it? You know, I'm just, I'm concerned that the more we grow and expand, the more that Marvel says like, Hey, yeah, yeah, green light green light green light. Let's do this other than the other, like maybe after infinity war.
And I'm just tossing this out there. Maybe an after infinity war, Marvel Studios should take a good long hard look in the mirror, from their giant desk through the smoke of their biggest, most expensive stoggy, and to themselves... And we know Spider-Man too is coming out pretty soon. We know that's gonna be at least a couple of hundred million dollars before the day is out.
So while we're resting our laurels on how terrific that is because they've already worked on it, they're already probably developing that movie. Because it's gonna be in the con, they know it's gonna happen after infinity war and the Avengers 4. So they can say, like, they can plan that movie out. But when it comes to making that phase 5, phase 4, whatever plot, or plotting that out, they need to think themselves, maybe the world won't forget about Marvel Studios if we only make one movie every year, or dare I say every other year.
Like, I think that after Infinity War, instead of like going, hey, now that we've put, man, that would be the most expensive movie slash superhero movie of all time, and we've had 78 freaking characters all on screen between two movies, Maybe we should not inundate the audience with even more stuff. I'm just wondering if maybe that's a thought, because if you're subsidized, if you have, you know, a tradition of excellence, you know, you can afford to take that to take that breath. Well, you know, it's funny, you know, we were talking about how they come out so frequently and everything. There's definitely this idea that I think in that Marvel and Disney have for Patchaway, where it's like, used to be these movies would all pile up on each other in the summer.
Now it's summer, whatever we say it is, because we have this amazing blockbuster machine of superhero movies. We'll put a Thor Hulk movie out in November and we'll make summer money because we can do whatever we want, because we have the characters, we have the IP and you want it. Well, and the other thing is, and this is just, this is, this is, you got to change the game because used to be January is where you dump your garbage. Fuck you, it's January.
Fuck you, it is January. January could be a summer season. If you just put out, if you're the only one, I mean, like look at Deadpool February, Shitty's hand for movies, and by the way, Valentine's Day really shitty time for movies in general, much which is actually kind of weird because Valentine's Day, it's like the cheapest, easiest day you can probably think of going with movies. But when it comes to that, like maybe the only movies that really succeed in Valentine's Day are romantic comedies.
Yeah, which Deadpool was. Which Deadpool technically was, but really it's a Deadpool movie. I mean, everybody is like, sure, I mean, I guess it was also a romantic comedy, but it was also for a lot of people, just a Deadpool movie. But you can like, if you have the big guns, you know, you can fire them anytime you want.
I mean, like look at, you know, drop a Marvel movie in February or January. Drop a Marvel movie November. It'll be a hit regardless of where you put it. It doesn't matter.
Like, drop them all like whenever you feel like and throw away the notion that there's a bad season for movies. I would assume that winter be a terrible time for movies, not because people are stuck indoors because, you know, people think like, oh, well, Christmas time, right? That's the time to go to movies. First of all, no, it's not.
And second of all, I never got that idea where they're like, oh, big Christmas releases and people being like, oh, yeah, that's what people do. They go see movies on Christmas day. Like really? Really?
That's a phenomenon that was not a reality in my neck of the woods. Same here. I mean, I guess if you live alone or something and you don't have family to see on Christmas time. Or you have family and you all don't want to talk to each other or see each other.
But you do want to say that you listen, a friend of mine from my neck of the woods actually does have a tradition where on, I think Christmas day or Christmas day after Christmas, they older the movies. And I'm like, really? Like, okay, that's kind of cool. Maybe it's because my parents probably haven't been in the movies in the last 25 years.
No, no kidding. Most of the last movie they saw. I think that, I think they saw Batman Begins. And they were like, oh, okay, because they don't like, you know, they're like, oh, all right.
That was kind of weird. Sal would like that. They were like, they don't understand. You know, they're like, why was that like a real movie?
Why did they take this seriously? Yeah, why would they do that? That's weird. Like, that's weird.
It's inappropriate. It's, for them it was like, why did he wear a Hawaiian shirt to the funeral? And it's like, because it's Jimmy Buffett's funeral. Oh man.
But, you know, I hope Jimmy Buffett doesn't die in the next couple days. That'll be the Elseworld effect. Yeah, exactly. Like the Colbert bomb.
Exactly. So, yeah, I mean, I am not in any way suggesting that Thor Ragnarok is going to suck. I'm actually really hyped for it. And it looks like it could be the best one.
And I genuinely really like Thor one, which makes me a weird outsider. Well, that's the thing. Like, let me, let me, going down the list of Marvel Cinematic Universe movies, just the movies. There are only a couple that I was not thrilled by.
Still maybe where it was entertained by, but I wasn't, but I didn't like rush out to buy it, which is. Yeah, like you said that like Iron Man 2 Thor the Dark World. Not their best work and get very watchable and they're on TV. I'll turn them on.
Iron Man 2 is on every frick day. It really is. That's it. I love Iron Man 2 and I bought that one immediately.
But, but with Thor and Thor the Dark World, I was like, you know, I saw Thor. I saw it in theaters and I really liked it. But none of them were. I'm like, holy shit.
It was still fun though. There's some funny ass jokes. There's some killer material in Thor the Dark World. When he hangs me on the code book.
That was great. I'm like, I'm not going to be a fan of the Dark World. I don't want it all the time. And at the end when Maleketh is going to destroy the world and they save it using like weather veins and stuff, I'm like, alright, portal attack.
Really no super here. Nobody else shows up now. Like, they didn't figure out that they could make the next phase of bloody movie every time. Like Spider-Man, Oh Coming, Spider-Man and Iron Man.
Thor, Ragnarok, Thor, and Hulk. Ant-Man, it's Ant-Man and Falcon. Falcon doesn't join them, but it's still like he gets this big cameo. He's there.
We're getting to be Ant-Man and Was next. Ant-Man, Was next. Which good. I think it's, she's expensive.
It's easy to have a female character of number one. We don't make actually because female characters because girls don't like black characters. But also, um, Black Widow, what does she do? She jumps and not even that far?
Cool. Okay, I can do that. That'll save me about 60 million dollars. She also shoots people and breaks next with her legs.
Yeah. Oh cool. So we got the fetishists also. Sweet.
But then look at, okay, so like you got that. There are a couple of them. You know, there's a couple of things where I'm like, you know, like age of Ultron was a little bit of a let down. Still solid, solid, but for me a little bit of a let down.
Doctor Strange. Yeah. I'm pretty tight. Pretty tight.
Guardians of the Galaxy playing two. Holy shit. Spider-Man. Yes, please.
Doctor Strange. A couple of maybe instant classics in there. Yeah. Doctor Strange.
Solid. You know, like, it's a seven out of ten. You know, but then you look at the shows. And number one, you're kind of like feeling the lack of quality control.
And number two, you're kind of like, okay, well, you know, agents of shield, I'm constantly saying I like it. It got progressively better. I'm glad I didn't drop it. I saw many people.
I know dropped it. I'm glad I stuck with it. It's a lot of people dropped it. And because it just wasn't their cup of tea.
I dug it, but apparently most of America didn't because it got to get it. Season one, Agent Carter is a really good period piece mini series. Fills in some fun blanks. You get to see Starks dad.
Season two, also pretty good. It seemed like they were implied like, no, but season three is when shit's going to get really heavy and then season three never happened. Exactly. By the way, thank you, Austin.
Thank you guys for the entertainment law and vacation. Enjoy your vacation. My friend. But yeah, I dug the shit out of Agent Carter despite the fact that America by enlarged it not.
Unfortunately, it was a cool period piece by drama every week. I don't know why that one didn't catch by the actors who played Peggy Carter for an awesome. She's delightful. She is.
That's a perfect descriptor. But Daredevil, Solid, Jessica Jones wins the awards. Luke Cage, fun despite the fact that there's a lot of criticism about that show. Jessica Jones was probably my favorite.
Luke Cage, it's fine. I was lukewarm on Luke Cage, no pun intended. Then I saw Iron Fist, I'm like, nope, take it all back. Luke Cage is awesome.
Luke rocked. Comparative with her. That soundtrack of any of the Netflix shows. Yeah.
It's almost like, man, they should have just listened to us and made, because Luke Cage is literally just two shows. It's like the first show and then another show. It's like they literally had, okay, here's our season two page. Now, roll your season two page into season one.
Yeah. We really kick ass villain and then we have another one. The second you really start to light cotton mouth, Andy's gone. But don't worry, we've got Diamondback.
Which again, Diamondback would have been a great sequel season two villain because he's fucking crazy. He's basically Harlem Joker and then he wears a snake costume. But then, but can you imagine if they listen to us where it's like, no season two is when Iron Fist shows up. I'm sorry, part two of season one is when Iron Fist shows up, it helps Luke fight top of Diamondback.
That would have been cool. Like, and then it becomes Powerman Iron Fist for the second half of season two. And then you can like dovetail the end of season one of Luke Cage into a more strong, not every episode as people ask if Danny Rand really is Danny Rand. Iron Fist.
I don't know. Apparently, a lot of the shows like Concerns or Criticisms was because of the showrunner. Yeah. Who's just bad?
But that's the thing, right? The showrunner, by the way, thank you getting arts with a loster. You got the evil that men do by Kevin Smith. Would you do back?
Yeah, I think so. Definitely we could bring that in for that one. But thank you very much for getting arts with a loster for your participation. What's he saying?
Uh... At the showrunner. Oh, how did he get past you? And why did you bring him back?
If everyone agreed that Iron Fist, and by the way, I don't mean everyone, I mean you specifically who loved Iron Fist on being a brother. By the way, season three of Iron Fist, I was in and I was in all the way up until the last episode. When it's actually a Kung Fu show when he's actually battling Kung Fu villains and the drunken master and all that other shit, it's fucking awesome. For me, like, that's cool, but I like the other stuff where Danny Rand's trying to take over his company and he's gonna like, I like all that stuff.
I like that idea. Danny's being a good guy and being like, hey, you know what, maybe my company should stand for something more than just greed and money. That's fine. That's a cool concept.
I like seeing that. I hated that we saw the goddamn Meat Chins wait so much. I thought the Meat Chins, none of them are named Iron Fist. No, I don't.
I was so done with them. I think around episode one, I'm like, holy shit, these people need to leave. They're way too much. I don't care about their plight.
I don't care about any of their development because they're not named Iron Fist. Oh, worst thing about it is that the Meat Chins get more character development than Danny does. They do. And then they recycle the same twist with Elektra for calling Ling.
Yes. I like calling Ling Ling. Cool stuff. Me too.
And by the way, Elektra is great. I'm so upset people don't like her because I think she's fantastic. She's very different from the comics, but I enjoy her life. I think she's not.
She is like, you know, Spider-Man Homecoming is different from the comics, but you still really, but it's like its own fucking thing. But it honors the comics by being, like while also being its own thing, I think Elektra does the same thing. The thing that got me about Elektra is that they robbed her of a lot of her agency right at the end. Yeah.
Crazy Elektra. She plays crazy so well. Yeah, she does. She plays the crazy I've seen.
So anyway, if everyone by and large agrees that Iron Fist is not great and everyone can kind of point to the fact that the guy who ruined Dexter is the guy who ruined Iron Fist, why in God's named you call the guy who did both those things and have him do one of your most elusive properties, one of your most expendable properties where you were going to make a big and humans movie, and then you took it and you threw it away the second you got Spider-Man and gave it not to like a lesser director or you look half the budget, you took it and for all of its purposes, you took it and threw it away. Because that's the concern, is that like for me, Marvel Studios and Marvel TV are effectively two different studios that everyone else outside this place doesn't understand are different because they build it as two parts the same whole. And now they're treating it like they're two completely different separate entities. So if you did that, number one it shows you don't give a shit about the humans and secondly, you don't give a shit about the quality of the humans and thirdly, the people who are in charge of the TV shows are not nearly as concerned about quality as the movie studio guys are because holy shit doesn't humans look bad and you know the guys who screwed the last two things up are making that.
So it's like what is going on here? You know, maybe if you weren't so focused on making every single possible thing right now, you could have had time to making humans palatable and enjoyable and maybe even a movie or a killer six to twelve episode season. Well, I mean, you genuinely just kind of hate in humans from the get guy. I think it would have been pretty hard to win you over.
No, I like quality. By the way, thank you, Tetsuo, Hickman's Ultimate. Yeah, we'll do that eventually. It takes time in.
Like, that's the thing about back issues. I like quality. I recognize quality. I'm not, I don't keep my head in the sand when it comes to stuff that I don't necessarily dig.
And by the way, I like, I never hated the humans when I first saw them, when they were fantastic for sub characters, but, and I love them in Earth X. But I don't like them when they're being used as replacements. I don't like them when they're being insisted upon. I don't like that they don't fit in the mold they're being put into.
The humans are under the radar. The humans are a niche thing. Making everyone in human, having a Terrigen Cloud circling the world, insisting on the humans is not the way to win the over for the humans. The way to win the over for the humans is to go, hey, there's a really solid series by Paul Jenkins, you should fucking pick up.
Or by the way, the gorgeous J.L.E. image that he released. That's really nice. For the iMacs release for the humans.
It's too bad that show looks like such fucking garbage. I like the trels old stuff too. I know we've argued about this. I actually thought he did some good work with Medusa there, being a put upon Queen and also a woman trying to get back into the dating scene.
The funny thing is for me, people were like, hey, we're going to see Medusa being a queen. Didn't we see that already? I feel like we've seen that already. I feel like we've already dealt with the story of Medusa being like filling in for Blackbolt.
Didn't we do that? Isn't that a story they did already when Blackbolt was replaced by a scroll? I feel like- And now she's on Earth though. God damn it.
Because you're not going to sell me by being like, no, but this time Spider-Man's clones are resurrected to Ashbot. It's a clone song. But yeah, so I'm concerned- Or maybe I'm not even concerned, but I'm like, I wish that Restrains was exorcised. I wish the Marvel was not so hell-bent on being like, this, this, this, this, this.
Like focus your energy on making what is demonstrably successful going to be successful as it can be. But really, when the things that either would be in humans, it's a hard sell. Maybe it would make a killer show, but it's still a hard sell. You've got to really take time and put the right people on that shit and make them make the best possible thing.
And maybe it'll take six years to develop the humans into the thing it deserves to be. But then you have this really solid goddamn show or movie. Like, you know what I mean? I'm just- I think if anything is going to help the humans, it's the fact that most people don't have the same knowledge we do as comic fans.
What's like, I had the humans, they were supporting fantastic four characters for them. It's like, oh yeah, the humans, those things they started on shield and are now getting their own thing. They're important. And I'm concerned that there won't even be a reference to shield.
Ooh, that's worrying. If they don't do that, that's going to be really worrying. I really don't think we're going to see that. Red Sam and I, thank you man.
Thanks for joining us in the Super Chat. Yes, that's a question. What do we think about Green Lantern Earth 1? I mean, it's about time.
I was hoping for Batman Earth 1, Volume 3, but I'll read this. And will John Stewart ever get us to? Probably not. I mean- Was there news about Green Lantern Earth 1?
Yeah, they dropped an image of the cover and they gave a little synopsis of what it's going to be. Cool. And they gave the creative scene and stuff. And it's going to be, hey, I don't know if you've heard this, but Hal Jordan is going to be selected to become the Green Lantern of Sector 2-814.
And he has a big journey and lesson to learn. Like, okay, at least Jeff Johns isn't writing it. Who is writing it? I don't know.
I'm not familiar with their work enough to have memorized their name. Right. But whoever's working on it, you know, as I understand it. And also DC is also doing a new Ragman book by Raybox.
I did see that. I was like, Ragman. Coming out in October, just in time for Halloween. Good for Ragman.
Yeah, good look at that. I like it when low arts your character is getting stuck in kick at the can. Yeah, I like Ragman. I like the idea.
I don't know. I don't know if I even like Ragman. I like that I remember Ragman. That's like the- I just like to say Ragman.
It's just hilarious because it just sounds like the stupidest thing. Isn't he on Arrow? Is that why he's getting a new chart now? I don't know if I can watch every guy.
If you're going to bring in a superhero for shows that you need to save money on, Ragman, you could do worse than Ragman. I've seen pictures of a dude on the set of that show covered in rags, but that might just be their take on Prometheus. I don't know. It's Ragman apparently.
It is Ragman. All right. Let's like, yeah. But yeah, I don't know.
I'm just, I don't want Marvel to bottom out or run it in the row. Let the- if people- if people talk about superhero movie fatigue, like it's a thing. It's a problem with it. Again, I think if the bubble was going to burst on it would have burst by now and the fact is Marvel's been really smart to change up the genre of their superhero movie.
And even what it means to be a superhero movie, like again, Spider-Man Homecoming, that was a John Hughesian team comedy, Guardians of the Galaxy. That was a space opera. Infinity War will be something totally different. I hope, or at least just make it like the coolest M.F.ing Avengers movie you could possibly make.
You know, even if you know, it's just going to be- it doesn't have to- you don't have to break them all every single time, but you know, what's it called? Doctor Strange should have been like a real like crazy head movie. Like it should have been like a- it should have been something else than what it was. Then just a straightforward, here's another origin movie.
My thing with Doctor Strange is like, ah, you know, the stuff in the school in him learning would have liked to see more of that, but they needed it to be a summer blockbuster action movie. Not every superhero movie needs to be an action movie, but I guess they do need to be. Yeah, I guess- yeah, that's the thing is like Doctor Strange would have done better if they were planning on releasing it in February or November. Like when I think of Doctor Strange, I don't always think pulse pounding action.
I usually just think of guys shooting lights at each other and like talking about the nature of the universe. When I think of Doctor Strange, my immediate image is him levitating against the big window in the- Yes, Sanctum. Reading a book by Candlelight. So for me- He's very chill.
It's like, yeah, but within the astral plane or his mind, it is a nightmare of action. Like, that's the kind of movie you gotta make. I don't know, but by the way, not to try. They tried to have both.
Yeah. By the way, not complaining about Doctor Strange, but just saying like, it's the one that you can point to where you're like, eh, and- Wait a second, I think the genre maybe got away from you here a little bit. And I want fewer- I just want there to be less opportunity for people to be like, eh, like I want Marvel movies to be indispensable. I don't want them to be like, which one am I gonna catch this?
Like, which one am I gonna catch this year? Like, no. How can you think like, well, I suspect I won't see Thor Ragnarok. Like, how can you live in that world?
I know, well judging by the box office on these movies, I don't think they're slowing the scene when they come out. And a good reason of how I think they're able to do that is they build up this meta game of the thing, it's like, oh, you gotta watch it, you gotta check for the Easter eggs and you gotta watch that post credit, because it's gonna be important in the next one. They've made a game of it and people feel smart now when they get to see it. And yet every single time I go to a movie, a Marvel movie, they all get up and leave.
I know. It's unfathomable. How is Spider-Man screening was better? More people say for this one than I've seen before.
I'm like, good, you're finally catching on. Yeah. But yeah, by the way, so no hate. I'm not complaining.
I'm not even saying that there's a noticeable dip in quality. But I'm asking the question, which is, is Marvel overextending themselves? And I think that if they are, the place they really are is in television. I wanna see them fix that shit.
Like get it back under the same umbrella and have the same level of quality control that they have for the movies. Then they clearly have for the movies. Yeah. I mean, even though it must be a frustrating creative experience, like I wrote this movie.
Like apparently when they wrote Spider-Man, they're like, I gotta crack at it. Like one of the writers, like I got to write a Spider-Man movie and then I gave my script to seven other people and then they made their own Spider-Man movie and eventually we got this movie. And I'm like, what is it? It worked and I loved it.
So I'm not breaking this formula. But I am saying like, you know, it must be frustrating and I understand that, but they have- That's just movie studios in general. I mean, that's not unique to superhero movies. Yeah.
But they did it, but there's opportunity there. But the shows, you know, I think they need to be brought back home and given the same love and attention because whether they know it or not, the world at large doesn't see a difference between a Marvel show and a Marvel movie. And if they see that, especially when they start releasing those Marvel movie shows in the iMacs theaters and having big releases for them, if it's really bad, it's gonna really really poorly reflect on the studio. And I want fewer opportunities for that.
And maybe there is a bad idea. Maybe not maybe that's a bad idea, but maybe there is a downside to that, which is if they put all their effort and energy into one movie every other year and that year the movie either doesn't hit or it's not quite as up to par as the last one or people were hoping to get something like that this time. And it was totally different. Like, can you imagine if they release Garza Galaxy and then our kind of Doctor Strange movie?
Like with a year gap and now people go like, oh, I love Garza Galaxy. I'm a Marvel movie. I'm gonna love it. And it's not just psychedelic.
Like, it's Doctor Strange, no origin. He's sitting in the sanctum and every, every so often they cut to him in his sanctum all by himself and just in with like, with, with monk music playing and like Wong checks on him and like checks his pulse every so often. And then when we go back into the mindscape, Doctor Strange is just blasting shit with magic ribbons. I think people be like, what the fuck am I looking at right now?
And it might turn people off. So I do see the, you know, both sides. But I'm just saying like, basically I'm saying like, take a measured hand to your, to your studio. Make sure, don't get complacent.
Don't become complacent. And I mean, too, like just, you know, looking at the broader thing of it. 2017 is turning into a pretty fucking awesome year for comic book movies across the board. Just not Marvel, but even Fox and DC Warner Brothers turned into some good shit this year.
Right. By the way, Kieran Morrison also changes awesome smiley face. Thank you. Thank you Kieran.
I appreciate that. But yeah, no, that's the thing is that like it's, it's interesting how Marvel's kind of like, Marvel kind of blazed the trail, but like kind of forced everybody to go like, man, we gotta, we gotta, we gotta make sure these are good. We gotta up our own game. Yeah, we gotta take, we gotta take these things seriously because here's the thing.
You're good, but are you Marvel good? Like 20 years ago when they were releasing superhero movies, they didn't give a shit. Oh, no, of course. We were like, oh, maybe let's make some money.
We'll do the Phantom or the Shadow. Yeah, or the Shadow without a Baldwin or, or Barb Wire or Tank Girl or Batman and make him a freaking joke. You know, just they didn't care and they were just like, just give it a go. Well, I mean, like the fact is because a studio heard that Kevin Smith read comic books and he made a Superman reference in his moral rights movie, surely he is the right man for this job.
Like it's like when you work in an office and you're surrounded by old people and then you get the printer working suddenly you're the tech guy. Yep. And then you're like, oh, I'm gonna be in my building all the time. People here.
Oh, that Joel fella. He works on the internet, right? So surely you can make my old ass computer on Windows 98 run faster. Exactly.
And I can't tell you how many times I've had to tell people it's like, no, no computers degrade like fruit. I can't actually make this faster. You just need to go buy a new one. Right.
Or like you've done something that I legitimately can't explain or fix. I don't know. I'm not, I don't know. And then they think you're being like, opposite of it.
They're like, oh, you do know jerk. This, this sweet lady gave me like one of those old giant laptops that I haven't seen in years with like a battery the size of a phone book. And I'm like, what? Yeah.
What do you want me to do with this thing besides like throwing away for you? The operating system, it wasn't even Windows 98. It was like the one before Windows 98. I'm like, I know this again.
I'm like, I didn't even know this existed anymore, man. This belongs to the museum. By the way, thank you to so excited in the Super Chat tombstone and HH for the homecoming sequel. H.