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Alright, let's get on with the show then. Waiting down upon the underworld to smash ganglins, come a friend of the unfortunate enemy of criminal. In mysterious, all powerful characters are probably to the police, but a crusade of a law. Everybody welcome to Elsewhere's Exchange, I'm Sal.
And I'm Joel. So we have been talking about DC Comics a lot lately. Not just on the show, but also on this great channel of ours, please. Just like and subscribe.
Let's, uh, the thought occurred to me. We've done these kinds of shows before. Hey, let's fix what they're doing. Let's figure it out.
Today, I wanted to do a little different thing that we normally do, where we're gonna have like a three-part list of what we want to accomplish and see if we can actually arrive at some conclusions. Because, you know, not only do we get some great ideas from the audience when we're watching this show live, by the way, if you are your sponsor today's show about you didn't know that, all you gotta do to sponsor today's show, use the superchats, ask a question, make a comment, and we'll read it here on the show. That money goes into the system and allows us to continue to do the show on a regular basis for you. Jesse Sweet, for example, says Money for My Favorite Channel.
Thank you, Jesse. I appreciate that, man. Or, miss. I apologize.
Could be there. I don't know. Uh, but yeah. So that's it.
Um, but you guys have some great ideas and suggestions. And so I wanted to be able to incorporate that into our ongoing conversation as we go. So when we say we want to fix DC Comics, what I think we're trying to say is that there are some issues that we have observed. I certainly identified one or two of them on yesterday's live show off the rack, where I was like, Jim Lee shared co-publication duties with Dan DeDio.
Dan DeDio's leaving of the company and very little conversation about it from the higher-ups. You know, the comic book industry has only been able to react and mix it up. Yes. And boy, are they good at both of those things.
I know speaking only for myself, my current, I guess, bugbear with DC is that I'm not reading as many books as I used to when DC Reber started. Like, I was probably reading more DC books than ever, and now I've scaled that back to I can basically count them all on one hand. Oh, absolutely. Same here.
And we have a list of all the currently active series of DC Comics. We're going to address that as we go further into the show. But it has had a toll. Now we have a publisher and chief creative officer, Jim Lee, who I don't know if he instills confidence in the company, the way that he ought to be.
And maybe he could grow and learn as the role requires. They are sustained by a large parent company and a larger parent company. Yeah. So there's really no reason.
There's no way to fail unless all you do is screw up constantly. And even then if you keep it quiet and keep your employees well, like well-paid and happy, no one will know about it for years. Yeah, it's true. So Lee could take the time to grow and change and learn.
But he was ahead of Wildstorm Studios. He's run his own entire publication group before. He was one of the main pillars of the Image Comics Revolution. He should probably know how to do this by now.
So what you're saying, Sal, is that Wildcats is the key to saving DC Comics and getting us back reading more as they really need to get them working and push them in more books. What I'm saying, Joel, is we're going to replace the bat with a cat. Oh, that's the new initiative. Is going to stand for covert action team.
Love it. I honestly don't think Wildcats could sell a book. Might be like the fifth pillar of the DC Pantheon. Honestly, though, the War and Alice Wildstorm series bored me to tears, but I recognized its greatness.
I'm like, there's a good series and it's really brilliant. I'm just not a fan, but it did put John Davis Hunt on our radar and he is awesome. He really is good. And I'm going to love him on that Shadow Man book.
But yeah, I don't think Wildstorm is the way to fix it. Nor do I even think that Lee even really gives a shit about it. You know why? There's been nothing.
I mean, like with the new 52, we saw like, you know, Pandora's like, ah, look at all these universes. One of them was straight up Wildstorm, Wildcats, Gen 13, that kind of thing. They've tried to, they've had some false starts with Gen 13 as a series since the DC acquisition. They just never went anywhere.
And I didn't really feel any love from Jim Lee. And I have a couple of insider friends over there who made mention of the fact that Lee has no Wildcats paraphernalia in the building. Really? That's funny.
No old action figures, nothing. Not even the amazing theme song is the ringtone for his phone. I would go to cons. I would switch it to the Wildcats theme.
Just with fun. That's seriously one top top 10 of the 90s. It's really good. The show is garbage.
But man, that theme is top tier. They're heroes, not zero. Yeah, that, okay. So you look at like the theme song for the Ninja Turtles.
That shit is poetry. It's brilliance. It's marketing boiled down to its basic components. Tells you what the show is, what you can expect.
Also has some zing. Wildcats, no one knows what that is. Least of all the people who wrote the lyrics to that song. No, of course not.
Before we get into the Superchats, I know there's a bunch of you guys. I know you have a lot of suggestions. So I want to address these first before we get into your suggestions. What we need to do is part one, identify the underlying issues that we want to fix.
So let's come up with a little list of what we want to fix. What's broken with DC Comics that we need to address or that we want to address here on the show. For one, I think we need leadership. I think there's a fundamental lack of leadership at that company.
There's no one to point to to say this person knows what they're doing, can steer the ship and knows how the ship operates. They need these three basic things to be an effective leader in the comic book industry. We need a leader. And by the way, not just one.
I think it's scary to have one person in charge of everything. That's called a dictatorship. Yeah. I love Kevin Feige, but Feige needs a protégé because Feige is but a man.
He is not an L&D. He is not a Terminator with Endoskeleton made of titanium. He is but flesh and blood. He could get the Coronavirus.
He could hit by a bus. And then where will the Phase Five go? Nowhere, that's where, because I don't do anybody who's really got the same little passion and talent that he has to steer that ship. You need elements to keep the system going.
Support systems. Another issue too, with only having one boss too. Let us not forget Jim Shooter. Yes, people loved his reign at Marvel for all the great books.
Some people, yeah. Except for the employees. It's like, man, we put out some of the best work of our career, but he was an iron-fisted dick. Yeah, no, like we benefited from it.
And we got a lot of, the thing is with Jim Shooter, we got a lot. Period. It wasn't a lot of good. It wasn't a lot of bad.
It was just, it's like he just opened the valve and we just let it all out. And he wrote a lot of that shit too. So he did. But yeah, Shooter needed a protégé.
And I think he had somebody at camera who it was, but they left it a huff too and he screwed up their entire career to do it. But yeah, you need support systems in place to allow the system to function properly. Leadership is key. The other thing, I don't think DC publishes too many books.
I don't think they have the Marvel problem. So they actually probably have less now than they have before. As I look at this list in front me, some are actually already done or are close to being done. So the list is actually out of date.
Exactly. So we don't need to scale back, but I think we need to focus. There's no focus now. There's no focus in the publishing line.
Because more or less writers are just kind of allowed to do whatever they want right now. Like again, say what you want about the new 52 era, but at least it was nice and divided into beef. Dums, you had your bat family of books, your Superman family of books, and they all affected each other and they all crossed over. And you pretty much knew what you were getting when you picked up a book.
Now, that's a lot harder because it's like, well, what Tom King did over here can't affect everything else. The whole house of cards would fall down. Bendis is doing whatever he wants anyway. So that can affect all the Superman stuff.
And then you got people like Robert Vendetti, God bless their heart in their Justice League book trying to make all of these things connect and saying, no, no, it's happening at the same time in one universe, I swear. So it's actually kind of like a two part problem. We got no focus on the publishing line. We also have rogue creators.
Probably more rogue creators now than there's been in a very long time. I think the DC is actually doing something about that right now, because you know as well as I do that Sean Gordon Murphy created the Murphy verse in his White Knight universe. He's calling it the Murphy verse. It's clearly the White Knight universe, but whatever.
But they are actually turning that whole thing into a publishing line. We're gonna have White Knight spin-offs that are not written or drawn by Sean Gordon Murphy, which I don't think there's enough to sustain that, but I digress. I think that when it comes to that, that's a good way to allow, to keep your top tier talent, keep them happy, and also cash in on some of those hits. I'm sure the numbers for White Knight and for White Knight too don't lie.
And they're like, God, how do we, I don't know, be more than that into a fine, a simple, marketable drink. And I think the way to do that for them is like, well, we'll just turn into a friggin label. I mean, DC's never been afraid of making multiple labels recently. I think the problem is they've forgotten how to be a book publisher when it comes to maintaining fostering and cultivating their labels.
So I think labels are a big deal. And I think they're important. That's part of the no-focus on publishing lines. It's really two things, leadership and no-focus on the publishing line.
And also two lines that just collect dust for a long time. Remember Earth One, how big that was? Then we were all in on Black Label for a bit. Now there hasn't been a Black Label book for months.
And then, you know, was it the Dark Universe? Remember the Dark Universe? Oh, yeah. And the vertigo that wasn't vertigo?
Remember that? The problem, I think that the solution for that, and I don't want to get too like all over the place, is that there are a bunch of lines that are collecting dust. And DC pioneered, I don't know, prestige, niche indie books with the vertigo line. They produce some of the most valuable independent IP of the 80s and 90s, like in the 80s and 90s of today.
And yet they close vertigo today. And part of that is because who would go to vertigo now with an original concept when they could just go to image? When image is out there and doing it so much better. Well, and they get screwed over and they can actually get like the whole pie instead of just a piece.
And also that. They got what's the word they got outmoded. Yeah. But I think that part of it is you do need leadership for all of those lines.
The problem was DC liked having all of these different labels, but they didn't want to have the or they'd lack the people who were passionate about each of those lines or they didn't care enough to put passionate people in charge of those lines. Because you need a person who's just really passionate about vertigo to push vertigo. You need a person who's super passionate about Earth one to push Earth one. You know what I mean?
You need something like it's why the ultimate universe ultimately only really works for Spider-Man. Because the only person who gave a rat's ass about the universe was Bendis, who also has his own line in young animal. No wonder comics. Oh, wonder.
Yeah. I forget young animal was the Gerard Way one. Yes. Comics is see look, I'm even forgetting ones now.
That's the thing is that like there's young animal which was Jarred Way's line. And the thing about that is, okay, right on Gerard Way's coming in. He's helping to be the line with the young animal book. We got a bunch of young animal imprints.
Clearly not all those books are going to sell young mother panic, you know, shade the changing girl. But Doom Patrol really worked out. Clearly, you're going to have to like whittle those down. There weren't just weren't going to be enough eyes and money for all those lines.
But the real issue wasn't that the books were not good or that they didn't sell. The issue was Jarred Way's in charge of that. You mean the lead singer for My Chemical Romance? What if he goes on tour?
What if he just gets sick of it because being in comics doesn't pay the frickin bills? You need shirt to run away from top. And then who's next though? Like who else is working on the young animal line that he is fostering to help replace him?
You know, like you need leadership and strong personalities who care about those lines that you're facing. I can't point to someone. Yeah, I can't point to anybody to run the company. And we're talking about the young animal imprint, which is by all inted for all those purposes is dead.
Oh, yeah. And died of very early death. It's still it's still a thing. We are still getting young animal books, but collectively in the consciousness of comic readers, it's a deadline.
Oh, no. What is black label? Who's in charge of that? Hey, you know, who would have been a great editor?
Not editor in chief, but like overseer that? Scott freaking Snyder. Yeah. Dude helped build that thing.
At least pitched it. You can't tell me that the guys who talked about like their top shelf black label whiskeys didn't come up with the black label label like label. That was very strange. Yeah.
But put, you know, put the right people in charge. And if they say no, find the next person, you know, just, it seems like DC's whole approach is like, okay, I've got this thing. Who wants to take it? I don't see any hands.
All right, well, I'm just gonna put it right over here and then forget about it. Whoever wants it, can just pick it up. Okay. Okay.
I'm gonna throw it away. I'm just gonna put it over here. And then I'm gonna put the next box on top of that. Exactly.
And then another box so that by the time that someone actually does come in and say, Hey, I want to do that. Well, it's underneath all these other boxes. Like, I don't want to move everything. It seems like a lot of work.
Yeah. So, but what other are there are any other underlying issues that you think like are indicative of the issues with DC today? I would say lack of leadership, lack of focus. Another thing, there are very few things at DC right now that aren't else worlds like white knight that we said, like Superman smashes the clan or even deceased that are really exciting me at this point.
You know what, I'll give credit where credit is due to Tom Taylor's suicide squad. That's incontinuity. And that is pretty exciting. But so many of the books right now, it's like, I've seen this.
I like Tynan's Batman. I'm enjoying it. But I've seen the mystery villain pulling all the strings before. I've seen this.
I've heard this. I like you. I like it. But I've seen it.
No, I think what we're looking at here is you got to make the main monthly line exciting. Got an ad excitement to the main monthly line. And it's just not there, which is why I'm not reading many of the main monthly books anymore. Yeah.
So there we got three things. Leadership, no focus, make the main line exciting. Yeah, that's enough, I think. But I will say one of the things they are doing right that I think is a big hurdle normally is their connectivity between the comics and the rest of the multimedia landscape.
Like there is no significant issue with their animation department. And I will say this, I don't like what they're doing necessarily with like their direct to DVD animated movies. But one of the better ones. But yes.
But like it seems that they like for better or worse, they're interconnected universe of DVD or like digital video on demand movies. It is a cohesive universe. Like this new Justice League dark apocalypse war movie that's coming out. Yeah.
It is in its own way and achievement because it's a culmination of I don't know how many years, 10 years of animated movies. Since like the end of Flashpoint Paradox where they like, oh, we're going to do a bunch of these in continuity now, which again, as a fan, I wish you wouldn't. But it seems time to hold it. They did it and they did it well.
Like I don't like it. But I do recognize that it is successful. I can't fault them. It has its audience, it has its cohesion, it's all connected, you know, and it has, and you know how it works because they actually managed to follow these three freaking things.
You have the same directors working on the same movies, you have the same focus on these, like you have the same level of quality control. Most of the same voice actors most of the time. Exactly. Superman recast twice but they've stuck with Jareo Connell and I think it's for the best.
But that is kind of impressive. Their Harley Quinn show is going really well and it's a good indication of things to come. Their app is a good focusing point for a lot of their multimedia projects. We got Young Justice again for crying out loud.
We could debate whether or not it was good as the first two seasons, but we got it and they were doing a lot of cool new interesting things. And I think people watched it and it was successful in its own way. Oh yeah, without a doubt. And we're getting another season.
Right. So on that front, they are doing, they're doing a pretty good job of marrying multimedia with the source material. Indeed. They could do better.
You know, nobody, I don't think anybody wanted this weird hodgepodge of hodge, but you know, you know, and killing joke was a failure. Yeah. Yeah. I like to remember killing show.
I'm just saying like, you know, it's very, it's not even incestuous. It's just all part of the same family. Like it's just there. Like the same people are all in the same offices on the same lot.
So yeah, you're going to have people go like, I wish you do an adaptation of this. Like it's easier than ever for them to have cross crossover. The only issue is, hey, the source material is doing really well for you to adapt into shows, cartoons, movies, whatnot. How about a little love on the other side?
Might be nice. Like, I get why they don't at the end of every movie do a plug for the comics. I don't like it, but I understand why they don't care. Yeah.
But if you're making these animated movies, where are the ads? Like, hey, cartoons, where are the ads for the comics? Might be nice. Hey, did you like that movie?
You just saw them. Maybe you would like to read this. You know, call me stupid for wanting to see the thing we're championing represented in the things that you're that you're borrowing from. You know what I used to always like whenever you would get like the home VHS release of like the Disney classics, Roy E Disney would always come out or you know, Michael Eisner would come out and be like, hey, kids, hope you're enjoying this, you know, great new Disney animated film, you know, maybe check out our parks or check out some of this other stuff.
Yeah, yeah, I think and it could be there's just the lack of leadership as a result. Like there is no person to point to. Jim Lee is a pretty good mascot for DC. Yeah, positive guy.
No scandals always seems to be, you know, enjoys going to the cons talking with the fans and everything. Well, I think he is like in his own way, he's almost handle proof because more people are willing to forgive a lot because they just love the art. Like, yeah, I think Jim Lee could get away with more than to Dio or John's because people are like, I mean, like, let's say he did something or said something, but he true hush, man. Yeah, but hush, man.
But his very covers though. But yeah, so anyway, that's what we've identified. No focus, no leadership. The monthly line is overall, I'm not exciting.
Pretty stagnant. Your shared universe is not exciting. We've addressed what those issues are, but we have to address what's causing those issues. But before we do that, let's jump into the super chats.
Getting arts with the lobster says can't watch much of the stream live. Love, sure to work, but still loving all the content. Well, I'm sorry, can't catch us, but we hopefully we will see you on the repeat. Thank you very much, man.
Fall angel X O O changed him Drake's name again. Drake is stupid. Red Robin was a stupid name too, but at least it was fun. Well, and I'll add to that, plus it Robin in the name.
Yeah, I never thought yeah, I'm definitely one of those people who's like, no, no, I didn't know how good I had it with Red Robin. I'm sorry. Yes, I hated Red Robin. Drake is as dumb as Red Robin for me.
But he made a good point. I'm gonna put it into the list for later for the brainstorming pool, which is legacy. That's an underlying issue. And it's something that needs to be addressed.
DC has and hates its own legacy. Boy doesn't and they do it every five to eight years. They get rid of it, bring it back and then we celebrate them for bringing it back. Right.
Gary Gianni says, finally made a live show. Hey, yeah, you did, man. Welcome to the show. Thank you very much for your contribution.
Here's just some of the money that I owe you for the hours and hours of entertainment or amazing content I've enjoyed. You owe me nothing, man. We make the show, but I do appreciate the support because it is a big help. But thank you for joining us on the live show.
Keboos, just my quick two cents before work. I enjoyed LoDell on Red Hood. He seemed to actually care about Jason, but gave Jason to Tom Taylor. What do you think?
Looked out. Jason to Tom Taylor. Oh, I love what LoDell did. But Tom Taylor should have Jason.
Yeah, I would say that's another problem too. And that is that certain writers, well, I think he's the only one in this situation refused to let characters go. New people can't get into Red Hood now because Scott LoDell has been writing him basically since the new 52 with no stoppage in between. So there's no fresh start, no get on point.
And also like, give someone else a turn, man. Someone else probably has a good take. And yeah, Tom Taylor has a really good fucking take. Yeah, I will add to that or use it.
We need passionate creators, but we also need limits. Yeah. Taylor Pecher, they definitely need to fix the collections department having at least six months up to 12 months for one trade is unacceptable. Joel, what do you think?
Yeah, again, I read so many digitally, they know I'm almost always up to date. I actually didn't know that that was the thing DC was doing for the trades right now. Yeah, that's not cool. Yeah.
So we need to address the collections, the trades are hard covers essentially, we need to address the publications. I agree with that. And I've noticed it's interesting how Marvel and DC are both the two biggest book publishers in the comic book industry. And yet, who does those beautiful absolute editions, those big oversized things?
I need W. Yeah, dark horse. What are you farming this shit out? Why don't you have the paper?
I mean, and listen, they make beautiful collections. I actually wouldn't change it much. I just, there's a rumor that Marvel bought Malibu comics back in the day because they did because Malibu was doing some amazing colorations. They were doing some great colors for their books.
And they operated out of basically a one bedroom apartment. They had an office and there's actually video online nowadays where you can see what the office looked like. But there's a rumor that Marvel acquired it because they didn't believe how the coloring was working and they wanted to steal their secrets to learn. So they just acquired them and threw them in a drawer.
And that's why you don't see any new ultra force. Yeah. But listen, go over there and find out how they do it and see what the cost is. Yeah, like DC should be published.
If DC has their own statue line, you know, like, you should direct makes their own freaking statues to compete with sideshow and whatnot, with good looking, pretty good quality statue collectibles. But without dealing with the like, ultra collector prices, they should also be able to make absolute additions and hard covers. You'd think so. Flywheel Shice for giving us the bones.
Thank you very much. Luke says, teenage John is a fake. The real John is trapped in a pocket dimension. Flying again brings the family back together.
That's a pitch to fix John Kent. I think that most folk would not argue with that solution. As far as it being a like an idea for how to fix DC comics, I think that goes right back to legacy. Also, too, forcing the legacy.
Also, good luck getting that done now when Ben does has control over the entire Superman line when he's arguably the most well paid man in comics today and they're not going to be giving him the boot creatively anytime soon. So you're just going to have to deal with that until he gets bored. Right. Which goes right into our passionate creators with limits section.
That is the solution. By the way, there's a video coming out from this channel from an episode from a show we haven't made in nine months called Comic Line. We offer a solution for how to get stuff like you're talking about. Super Luigi Act, shout out to Joel because why not?
Why not? Oh, I think I needed that. I've been having a bad week. Thank you.
I'm sorry to hear that. Deviled ham. I don't see DC surviving the current diamond distribution model or the same amount of weekly releases. Stick to big names like Batman, Stickman, Weekly and everything else is limited runs and graphic novels.
Scaling back, do you think scaling back is the solution, Joel? They're already really scaled back right now. Like we said, they're putting out less books I think than they have in a very long time with others to be canceled and mini series to end. As far as you know, like, will they be here?
Well, of course they'll be here. They've been here for almost 80 years. These companies have outlived are older than most of us put together will continue to be. The answer is just in what form?
Yes. I will say, one thing I'd like to see from DC and from Marvel is pushing back against diamond. Yes. They are cartel.
They are bad for the industry. And I think that if you control the supply, you call the shots. Yeah. So you can dictate terms.
And they do. It just seems no, I'm saying Marvel and DC should be able to dictate terms against diamond. I just don't think that they want to. I think they're complacent.
I think they make their money and they're happy with it. I think they're not innovating. No, I think too. There's a lot of old people in charge at the managerial level.
And you know, breaking shit up like that that has stood for again 80 odd years is a young person's game to work for. Yeah. But I'm going to put that in the parenthetical for the pushback against diamond. That's more like a personal thing for me.
Like, hey, wouldn't it be nice if DC could leave the charge to push back against this cartel is this monopoly? Yeah. I think a good way to do that is to and this is another solution, I think is to foster your digital archive. Please.
And the reason that they're not in that they're not, you know, trying to do new digital series continues to do my head. And especially after when one of their biggest hits of the last decade was injustice. Yeah. A digital exclusive series, I will say the app DC universe has added books to the app, but it's not a Marvel and limited competitor.
It is not in any way, apples and apples. It's apples and oranges entirely. You got to get control of your digital archive and you got to make it accessible and available and you got to make it discounted. You got to be able to find some way to get your backlog in front of as many eyes as possible.
Also make it available in places like Canada and Australia and all the places it's still not available and probably won't be available until it turns a profit. Right. Which maybe it would if you opened up your market to millions of other people in different countries. But yeah, fostering your digital archive and supporting your archive.
I think that also making those books available in trade, just fostering your archive. Hell be nice. I'll put digital in quotes or in parenthetical, like fostering your archive, putting out trades, collections and also making them available digitally. A Marta Ocharya says, have a plan for your universe.
Don't change the plans midway. Just out of spite, put creators on characters they do actually like move Bendis from Superman. Yeah, that goes right into the passionate creators with limits. You want Bendis great.
Bendis says you want Superman? Okay, let's see the pitch. Oh, that sucks. You know what, you want to work here?
You want to get this money? You're working on Batman. You're working on the question. You're working on these smaller characters who have street level abilities because that's what you're best suited for.
Talking to about changing plans halfway through a couple of the last big events, doomsday clock, heroes and crisis. Boy, it really feels like you guys pivoted halfway through and changed whatever the original plan was here, doesn't it? Yes. So I'm actually going to put that back up at the like identifying underlying issues.
Planning. Planning is essential to your shared universe. It's essential to your publishing line. Planning is the lifeblood of your market.
You need to have a plan and more importantly, that plan needs to be cultivated by experts and veterans and new blood alike. You have this hybrid plan that you can not be afraid to stick to when the market reacts to it and it may look unfavorable. Yeah, you know, I actually had a really good pitch about this when it came to writing Greg Wiseman. He said he developed this whole thing when he was writing Gargoyles for television where it's like, look, you need tent poles on either end of your story and then, you know, you can change and do stuff in between and move episodes around as they get syndicated and everything.
But you got to have your tent poles in place. This needs to happen here. This needs to happen over here for it to feel complete and then you can play around in the middle. Right.
So I'm actually going to put that in there. I'm going to put it next to planning, put tent poles. You need tent poles. You need tent poles.
You need tent poles. You need tent poles. You need tent poles. You need tent poles.
You need tent poles. You need tent poles. You need tent poles. Yes.
Those tent poles are part of the goals. Where it's like, this is where we're going to start. This is where we're going to end up. You got to have an end game.
And I get the comic books or sequential fiction. They're soap operas. They never end. And that's kind of a problem that you don't, that, you know, sometimes you feel like, oh, we can't have this, you know, have too much finality or people will stop reading.
Right. But at the same time, like, there's plenty of things that end that still have like a beginning or a new generation or some kind of jumping on point. Desperately being afraid of your audience finding out they don't have to buy your disposable media is not a publishing initiative. No, that they don't have to tune into general hospital every week again to bring back the soap oper comparison.
No, it's also like, the problem is you're really, you're betraying your lack of faith in your industry. If comics are so disposable that if we do end our major event with a kind of like period and it has to be a period where it's like, another world blew up or that everyone died or everyone grew old and moved on. But just an ending. Like if you think that everyone's going to stop reading your books because there's an ending to your event or your story arc, you basically said that your universe isn't worth reading.
No, the end of the event can't be the end of it. That has to be the lead into the new number one. Yeah, it's a fundamentally flawed approach. It's why leadership is important.
And it's why you got a foster new talent. Eat that horse, a smaller thing. I think we really should have had a different back girl by now. We've had both better back girls in continuity for years now.
Are they just going to keep de-aging babes forever? I'm going to answer that question with a story. Please do. I used to post on the Brian Michael Bendis message boards or the Ben Bose back in the day.
And then just and a number of other creators used to post regularly on that website. And it was an ongoing conversation. And I remember one guy coming out and he was an incredibly talented artist. I wish I knew his name.
I'm sure he's working in the industry today because he was drawing free shit for people, you know what I mean? Like at industry level talent. Oh, wow. Clearly he had nothing better to do with this time.
He pitched Barbara Gordon Batgirl being Batgirl again pre-new 52 like well before new 52. We're talking 2005. Oh, wow. He's talking about how like men I want to see a Batgirl book with babes back in the saddle.
And he had like a new redesign for a costume. And he just desperately wanted to draw Batgirl again. But as Barbara Gordon and everybody piled on him where they were like, Batgirl is Oracle. Like Oracle's a good character.
You have enough Batgirls. You got Stephanie Brown. You got Cassie. You got enough characters to be Batgirl.
Why do you need Barbara Gordon? And I chined in and I'm like, they'll never fix it. Like they will never take her out of the wheelchair because it is too much of a political tightrope to take away this representative character who is an avatar for disabled readers. And then go, oh, and guess what?
Sometimes when you are paralyzed, you can just walk again. And be happy and jump around again. I'm like, that is so like tone deaf and weird. It's just too complicated.
And they did it anyway. And he responded with, they have been trying. He's like, I know for a fact they've been trying to fix Batgirl for a long time. Really?
That's wow to think that they wanted it. That's for that. And I was like, oh, you're delusional. And it's like, no, he was an insider.
Yeah. And then you ate those words years later. And the fact that yeah, she stayed Batgirl for this long through several changes and changes in writing. Yeah, I think one of those solutions is to be unafraid of change.
The only the only constant in life is change. And arguably, you know, making Batgirl, they're making Barbara Gordon back girl again is changed because she had been Oracle for like 20 years. But there's a difference between not using a character and evolving a character into a new status quo. And also still, you know, let us not forget that as far as the greater pop culture consciousness was concerned, there was only Barbara Gordon Batgirl because she was the one in all the cartoons and everything else.
Yeah, it was always her. You know, again, we might like Cassie, we might like Stephanie and everything. But as far as you know, Joe and Jane popcorn are concerned, it's always Barbara. But I don't think that they were doing that because in the cultural consciousness, everybody was who's this Batgirl?
I thought it was the redhead. Like, no, you're talking about by and large a niche character. I'm sorry. But like, if you're not talking about Spider-Man Batman, Superman, and Superman, by the way, doesn't sell very well.
So really, you shouldn't be using that as a barometer. But like, anyway, else is a niche character. Because if they don't sell top 10 numbers, the powers don't regard them as being like, you know, a tentpole character. That being said, anyone can become a tentpole character.
Look at Harley Quinn. She started selling so much more and now she is the fourth pillar of DC. Patrick Lawson, help it is that. Thank you very much, Patrick.
Max Montgomery. I love you guys. I can't stay for live show, but I'll catch you on the VOD. Have a great day.
Too sweet Joel. Hey, there you go. Let me too, man. Thank you so much for your help.
I appreciate it. And we'll see you on the repeat. Drew Torres, I hate everything. But I don't understand how elsewhere's exchange isn't more popular.
You've got good iTunes numbers at least. I have no idea. iTunes is bullshit and doesn't really show you the numbers. Incidentally, if you are watching a show and have an iTunes account or you're listening to iTunes, give us a good rating.
It does help us out. It bumps us up. It gets more people to see slash here. Podcast numbers are such a crazy thing because I actually tried writing a Canadian podcast company out here being like, oh, well, you know, I've been doing the show for a number of years.
My own show, The Comic Multiverse, surely I'm good enough to be on a network and one actually brought me back and they're like, oh, that's pretty cool. Let's see your numbers and analytics there. You know, we're looking for at least 10,000 downloads. And I'm like, well, I don't have that.
So a good day. Oh, you are. And name a few shows that can prove they have 10,000 downloads. Yeah, because that's a big problem.
It's true. But that's a different that's a different show. Yeah. The Mona or the Monina 42.
Thank you very much. Five pounds. Christian Pereira. I don't think you digress out.
He seems to want to do everything. It's lack of focus, clearly. Thank you, man. That's that's a fair point.
But yeah, no, it's very scatter shot. DC has like a ready fire aim, you know, like buckshot shotgun kind of approach this whole thing. It sticks to the wall. We'll do it.
But no, the solution is not to act like them. It's to find solutions the way that people are supposed to solve problems. Yeah. A great.
Toybox Customs says the only way to fix DC is to crisis the company. I mean, again, it's been about five to eight years. So no, I think he means like a reboot on the executive level, the creative level, the way that corporate structure is manifested. Yeah, for like the 80 minute show, you're like, no, all of it's going.
I, yeah, I'd say good luck with that. Because again, some of these guys have been in these jobs for over a decade now are really, you know, right on in there. I'm shocked that to deal left as we said before, I thought they would have to carry him out kicking and screaming by, you know, his cold, dead hands. Agreed.
I will say, you know, like, it's also very interesting. Not entrenched, but it is very like incestuous. Like the person who's in charge of DC, you know, Diane Nelson was the president of DC Comics and she became president because she worked as like a liaison multimedia branding person for the Harry Potter franchise and Warner Brothers. And then they announced like, Hey, yo, you're in charge of DC now, you clearly can do that.
And that's the thing that DC seems to be the most of if you look at Diane Nelson's career and how if she was in charge of like brand management, she was in charge of like coordinating the Harry Potter franchise. That's what they're focused on. Like, they're not focusing on having a president who can steer the ship of comics and make this the best damn book publisher we own. They're focused on negotiating the bridge between this IP farm we have here and those things with that move that people more people buy and watch over there.
And he shirts and movies and toys and Happy Meal Titans. That being said, I don't know why they put the person who was in charge of the quick silver quality surf clothing and snowboard company in charge of DC right now. But whatever. You mean you didn't have a bunch of quick silver merch?
No, I did not. But then again, I wasn't part of the culture, I guess. No, I guess not. Yeah, DC does need like the thing is you could you could go to DC, kick in the door and give them this list.
They could every one of them could watch the show and they'd be like good ideas. But like you can't you know, leopard doesn't change spots. Like no, they're gonna revert back to type. You can't just like tell somebody who's like heavy set.
Hey, just stop eating burgers, man. They want they have to want to change. They have to have the tools in front of them. They have to know how to change.
And again, and this is true of the corporate world in general where it's like these are great ideas. We can't implement any of them. Right. None of these are implementable.
And it's like, you know what? That's loser talk saying like, those are all really good ideas. They'll never do any of them. And it's impossible to implement them.
No, it's not. It's like it when you talk to a billionaire. You know, you can't do you're a billionaire. You can buy senators.
You can buy islands. You can get a private plane. You can literally do anything. So don't talk to me about what you can and cannot do and what you can and cannot change.
And we're talking about very limited things. We're talking about a comic book industry here. The one of the smallest, most insulated industries. Oh, yeah, if you're talking about like, you can't do that because so and so has been here forever.
And they have like a million people who will rush to their defense and keep them insulated. Yeah, that's something you can't necessarily do. But even then you can work around them. If you know psychology and you know business structure, if you have leverage on them, you can make these things happen.
And the suggestions we're making here, not really revolutionary. We're not talking about changing the industry itself. We're just talking about how to make DC profitable again. You need your own Glen Gary Glenn Ross guy to come on and always be closing.
Yeah, I got my balls. The other petcher cut the bi-weekly schedule. There is no reason why Justice League Wonder Woman and Flash are still bi-weekly. I can understand Batman to an extent.
Yeah, no, that bi-weekly schedule is dumb. It's terrible. It makes them the same amount of money that they would normally get monthly. Twice a month.
It's why they're doing it. Hey, it was cool during DC Rebirth when I was interested in all these stories. We're super excited and I felt like I had to read them to get the whole watchman button long game. But then eventually the jig was up and it's like, oh, you weren't actually ever building anything, were you?
No, they were. It's just that like some folks weren't doing that or they wanted something else or, you know, maybe they were told not to do that. I will say the solution to the bi-weekly schedule is you call it something else. Batman, Detective Comics, no, those should not be bi-weekly.
Just Batman, Shadow of the Bat, Detective. You know, I mean, just make different titles. Wonder Woman and Wonder Woman, you know, Princess of Power, whatever. Like, you give them different titles and you give them different creative teams.
So you just put out multiple books. Yeah. Or don't do that. I wouldn't do that.
Like, I'd be like, no, bi-weekly is unsustainable. But we need a new bat and comic every week. Yeah. Blue Baba says, I feel like DC's current writers don't fully understand the properties they write.
So far as movies and ad- so far as movies and adaptations go. Yeah, I think informed creators. So, you know, you have the passion to creators and you give them limits, but you also need them to actually know what they're talking about. It'd be nice.
I don't know what the solution is there. You know, we suggested in an upcoming show that one of the solutions is just having good editors who go, you know, who are strong and passionate and supportive, you know, where they go, do whatever you want. My job is to make sure that it's in continuity and it works. So it's like, hey, maybe if a creator who's passionate and is going to put asses in seats, so to speak, who's going to put hands on books, I don't know what the good term is for that.
Asses on books, in which case you're reading it wrong. Yeah, it's not how you read. But you let them write their story the way they're going to write it. Boom, here's your book.
Or here's your script. The editor goes through it and goes, okay, you can't use this character because that wouldn't make any sense that character wouldn't do that. Or you could, if this happens, like their job is to know the decades and decades of continuity and history. And especially if you have editors on each title, so if they're only job to represent what that character's universe is all about.
And you know, that's also like a chicken and egg type situation too, where it's like, look, are the editors not doing their jobs or all these rogue creators making it too difficult for these editors to do their job? Exactly. So like a caveat slash extra addendum to the brainstorming solutions is you got to get the passion of creates and limits. You need strong, powerful editors.
And I don't mean powerful editors who can like bench press or who like punch you. I mean, and I kind of like that idea of big strong editors. Well, that case, I guess Greg Kapula was just editor in chief, but he's your man. Right.
But I think that really the solution is like you need to give editors actual power. Like they need to be able to tell their creators no. Yeah, it's how you got vertigo. It's how you got swamp thing.