Elseworlds Exchange: On Watchmen Sequels

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Alright, let's get on with the show. Weeding down upon the underworld to smash gangland, come a friend of the Unfortunate. Enemy of criminal. In mysterious, all powerful characters.

A problem to the police. But a good state of law. Hey, welcome to the Eltrus Exchange of Sal. Hey everybody!

Welcome to the show, man. Thanks. This is a rare treat. Yeah.

I'm sure they are as well. Welcome to the live show. If you're watching this after the fact, I'm going to chase welcome to the show. By the way, the show has a sponsor.

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You didn't tell me that was a sponsor. No, no, no. But I don't tell any of my co-hosts when there's a sponsor. Just bring it on.

Right. That's a great idea. It's very professional. But yeah, it's actually you.

So if you are watching the show live and you want to contribute to the show anyway with a comment or a question, use the superchats. And I will read them here on the program and weave them organically into the narrative as we go. Or not given our last... Oh yeah, oh crap, superchats.

Oh crap, yeah, exactly. But keep it, you know. I'll try to give you some openings. That's a good idea.

I mean the reality is like we're, they're here for us. Yeah. And they're just excited about participating. When they inevitably use superchats.

Right, right. Which of course are not. Yeah, not. They are talking about me though, so I like that.

I like that. They're talking about me. I like that. I'm popular.

But yeah, so we're going to talk about Watchmen a little bit. We're going to preface this is where everyone who hates us or who doesn't know who we are is going to go like, okay, get the fuck out of here. Right. I haven't watched the show.

I've read a little bit about it. Yes. And the premise. And I've seen a bunch of the trailers.

I've seen a scene or two of the show. And I've also read a couple of like articles about how like brilliant it is. That being said, I don't watch the show part because I don't know goddamn time. But the other part is because I don't think we need more Watchmen.

And so I want to talk about that a little bit because I know that Watchmen's one of the few comments you have read, but also really, really enjoy that it matters. Yeah. And it has some depth. And every time we talk about like a Watchman spin off sequel prequel to you usually respond with a similar sound effect to Stan.

And it's like, oh, come on. Before Watchmen was one of the first times when DC was in trouble as it often is. They were like, oh crap, how about we sequelize Watchmen? We won't sequelize it.

We're not going to totally go full till prequelize Watchmen. We do want to make more money on it though. We're still on the hat. What's the point of owning this property?

Yeah. If we're not going to milk it to death. Like why wouldn't we just sell it back to more if we're just going to use it just to just reprint every year and make the residuals off the sales of the graphic novel, please? No.

New content. That's what we're talking about before the show. We're in the new content era of media. It's all about new content.

It's all about reboots and even Kevin's doing it. Yeah. Well, it's new content and it's safe content. Right.

What can I invest in that will get me a guaranteed return? Yes. Or a near guaranteed. A close to a guaranteed return is like a possibly yes.

Well, let me talk about this on the show before the fact that media entertainment media as a business is a horrible business. It's like a restaurant industry where it's like if you have the opportunity, don't invest in it because, like, nine out of ten, they'll fail. Yeah. Because in the entertainment industry, you know, it's one thing if you're betting on a stock, right?

If you're making your stock options and you're like, okay, I've been watching the trajectory of the stock, they're, you know planning to, you know, planning to release some new technology or some new innovation that you can quantify will increase the value of set stock. You make predictions sell at the right time or at least buy at the right time. With the entertainment industry, it's the exact same thing only with artists instead of improving track records. It's like, well, you made a story that resonated with teens, age 18 to 25.

Maybe if I give you triple the budget of the last story you told, I will be able to make quite a droop of my amounts. Where are these numbers coming from? Yeah. The ether.

I looked at some prior movie where that happened. Right. And I think that like a single data point is like a valid like. Yeah, to invest millions of dollars into an artistic vision.

I look at it as like, when the entertainment industry, the movie industry was in its heyday. What's the heyday? The heyday will say like shortly after they introduced talking into movies. Around the 20s and 30s.

Yeah, up through maybe like a 50s. Okay, up through like a little bit of past color. Because the 50s is when they were like, when they were just churned out garbage at like a breakneck speed. Right.

They had sets, they're building two movies at a time. Right. And how did they, how did studios get people in the seats? What was their formula for like guaranteed return?

Besides the novelty of going to the film. Besides just the fact that like I weren't that many. One thing was a lot of movies. How did you, how did you keep them?

Yeah. I think it was hitting on phenomena. I know that like they generated like sometimes like you know, there was the, the B movie sci-fi age, the westerns, the romances, matching the current trend. Yes.

War movies, you know, stuff like that. Right. But there was another way. What's the other way?

I'm curious. Stars. Stars. Yeah.

It was like get child, the history of the world later. Right. Get the leading man, the leading lady. These were very important things.

Yeah. The movie and it did generate money. People would go to movie to see an actor. Right.

Yeah. They were going to see the next Cary Grant picture. Well, of course, really on a very smaller scale, you know, like David O'Sell's Nick was a name that was interchangeable with like quality. So David O'Sell's Nick was producing, by the way, they sell the reproducers back at the day, was producing a picture.

You knew you were seeing something of quality or gravitas. Hitchcock making pictures like that. So, so basically what you're saying is brand recognition was important for the sustainability of the independent. Yes.

And I think what happened is once the industry started to suffer. Yeah. From television. Right.

The home media competition. Competition. They saw the, they saw the, they saw the guaranteedness in Rodin. Yes.

It was harder and harder to get people and see if they needed something more. Because it wasn't just enough to cast Tom Hanks or there weren't enough people like that. Exactly. So what can you do?

Well, you turn to something derivative that you know people already want. Right. Because you need them succeed with. Yes.

It's just harder to make money in movies. Yeah. Because people have so many more entertainment options. Right.

And it's like just an inevitable sort of evolution. Right. Well, we've seen how, how media has evolved today in response to that where, you know, it used to be the home theater experience was the big deal, right? Like bigger TVs, better sound systems, you know, and of course, like decreasing prices for technology and making it like more easy than ever until it got to the point where I didn't want to sacrifice that because I just wanted to watch my phone.

Yeah. And that was convenience. Convenience is key. Yeah.

And so how am I convinced somebody to go to the movie here? Yeah. Go out. Yeah.

And then go into a place, spend double the money, sit around strangers and endure that nonsense. Yeah. And people don't even care to go into their living room and turn on their giant TV. Right.

And we all have big TV now. Look at disposable media or at the very least like home media. Like we have these like great discs that have like all this like jam-packed content on them. And I was watching the same movie I owned on TV because I'm lying on the couch right now.

Yeah. Like how many times does that have to be watching TV? Oh, my favorite movie is on. It's cut to shit and it's got commercials and I literally have it sitting in a box over there but like it's over there.

But it's all over there. I got it over there. And then the irony of course is during commercial show trailer for a movie that you'll see in the theater. I'm like, oh yeah.

Right. I'm not even getting much less leaving the house. But yeah, well and of course that's translatable as a comic book. To comic books.

Yeah. I got to go to a specialty shop to purchase this particular disposable media. Bring it home. Read.

You know, it's just until the point where it's like, okay, comics and you're phone. Unfortunately, it's like a monopoly and it's run by a corporation. It's all you're still going to read it. Can they read it to me?

Someone knew. Yeah, but not the big two. Yeah, like it's. So the the the the the the the brandization of movies was a way to combat like the the growing alternate interests in your attention.

Yeah. So we'll try to lock in or guarantee as much as possible or return on your investment because it's business. It's all a business trying to generate reliable return. Yeah.

You know, so it's great to have like a one off like avatar that makes a whole bunch of money. Sure. But the real thing is like, yeah, but how do I make sure that I make that money? Yeah.

So I guarantee make half as much per movie as avatar made on like a bunch of movies a year that have like one random hit that I couldn't predict. Exactly. Yeah. Although I would argue that avatar is a great example, but also was like a perfect genetic experiment.

Well, that's. James Cameron made Avatar in a lab. Like, okay, I'm going to use this percentage of last of the weekends and this percentage of what kind of this percentage of science fiction and this percentage of bullshit new technology. That is enough of the gimmick.

Yep. And I'll put it out during a period when it's like a bad season for movies because we know competition. Like it was a it was a perfect. You know, you hit all the points that's the other way to get because he spent a lot of money.

But he also knew. But just if I it's not a first time filmmaker, like he knows how to make the Benjamin's or the really, you know, is how to tell a story that will deliberately manipulate the audience into not only being tricked into going to it, but then being tricked into saying that they liked it when they did this. Yeah. So yeah, but the movie industry itself is a like quagmire of business where it's like I'm betting the farm on uncertain thing.

And so when it comes to Watchmen, yeah, I'm going to make a prequel to Watchmen because I know what Watchmen is people who don't read comics know what Watchmen is. People who read the new brands that has prestige outside of comics other than Marvel movies. Right. And that's the thing.

What else can we and HBO is a prestige network network. Yeah, they produce quality content that also has breasts in them, like, which Watchmen also has. Hey, why not? I mean, perfect thing to say is a match me to heaven to make a Watchmen adaptation through HBO, which of course HBO has been the place.

That's more of an accident than it is a function because HBO has been like the place to go for adult oriented entertainment forever until HBO had, I don't know, what is it, 11 different streaming services that can compete with it now that can be whatever they want. But with Watchmen, Watchmen has proven brand that has gravitas and so as such, you know, I'll make a sequel or prequel to it and that'll make us at least this much. We know. We know this is DC talking.

Yeah. We know how much Watchmen, the thing that we made 35 years ago can bring in. So we know at least get that much. Yeah, at least in the first shell.

Yeah. So, so if we can quantify that then boom, then it's totally worthwhile. Yeah. Your guaranteed buzz, your guaranteed free advertising, all the think pieces about whether you should do it or not.

Yeah. And we'll get a boost to sales of old copies, you know, reprints of a much as well. Well, at least that's the hope. I noticed that DC doesn't really think like that.

Like, like they think as far as that, but then they don't go make sure to put out like an absolute edition of Watchmen at the same time and make sure to put out like 16 different trade paperbacks and like a reprint. Hey, how about we do flashback reprint editions of the original series of Watchmen. You know, it's 12 issues. We'll print them all out and we'll get our top artists to do very covers on all of them.

Like just throw the freaking barn at it. You know what I mean? But like they didn't do that. Yeah, it seems like odd.

I don't know. They didn't do that for the movie either. They did produce like an absolute edition. Like I want to say around the time there was some edition that was produced around that but they didn't do like the very covers on stuff and it could be because they like someone in DC is like no, don't.

Right. Found it. That'll do that too. You can make your before Watchmen and you can make your movie and you can hurt.

But let's leave the original. You can make it bigger. Right. Yeah, you can add like art and stuff in the back.

Let's not add a bunch of crap to it. Please. This one thing maybe I like to think I would love to believe that's true. I just think they didn't it didn't occur to them.

Well that would be that would be that re-daming because they're a shitty company. I mean, look at before Watchmen. Before Watchmen is not very good. Just all of them.

They got the top echelon of creators to work on it and it's still at best forgettable. Much less. Nobody talks about it now. No, but it's in the nickel bins and they don't even make nickel bins.

Like literally no bins. No bins. No bins. What's in every bin.

But like hey, if you buy 10 comics in the quarter bin, we'll throw in the entire suite of before Watchmen. Like literally I was at a thrift store I think a couple months ago in all of before Watchmen in floppies. Packaging taped together. Like tape on cover.

You know, destroy the copies to read them. And they were a dollar for the whole run that they ruined. And they did that after they put it on sale because they were just like, oh, we got put it together. Well, I'm 80 years old run of thrift stores.

I'll just put tape all over it. I'm like, you ruined it. At least it was before Watch. Yeah.

But just arguably like, and it kills me. Where I'm like, why did you waste on that? Like the Cubers. The Sons and the Father, back when Jellers around worked on the Night Owl series, like together.

I'm like, hey, how about you just put on a Batman book? You're not shy waiting for making Batman books. Why did you waste on Night Owl? I was at the Cuber School, the other day and they gave me a poster of it.

Oh, sweet. But thanks. This'll never go up. But anyway, so we're talking about Watchmen and whether they should legalize it.

We're going to get into it more deeply, but first, there's some super chats you're going to get to. All right. Super chats. Yeah.

Rescue number one of says. Yay, me. Yeah, good contribution. So in the age of universes and sequels is even worth trying to make movies of con or content that is a one shot Like is it is it?

I guess what you're saying? Yeah, well, that's the question. I mean, that's why No one makes one shots anymore. Yeah, yeah, no, they do in their one shot.

They're like, but how can we can you put in a backdoor sequel somewhere in there? I mean they Wrath come how long does that come out? How long ago? Yeah, it was 84 something like that.

Yeah, it's like over 35 years old. Yeah, remember Like even like we're killing Spock. We're just doing all or are we or maybe not? Yeah, depending on if you let me more direct Like damn you we get so no, there are no one shots, but some altruistic creature So who wants to make a good story is like I got this one right?

Right, so here's the thing you say is it even worth trying to make yeah worth from what perspective from a financial perspective? No, it might be but it's a big risk. You got to find someone's willing to take that risk or you've got to take on a lot of personal risk to Make it from an artistic standpoint is it worth it? Yeah, it's a word of a story You believe is worth telling them is always worth it.

Yeah, yeah, redhead media says I think the better question It should watch would be a part of the beast universe or should it just stand on its own? Well, it's for longer than it's for longer It's been it's been that way longer than not. Yeah, and I think based on the current regime at DC It will continue to be that way. We'll see I know very little bit because we're gonna do that show on back issues in the future I want you to respond to be genuine and earnest.

Yeah as they will be and he'll be horrified But no, I mean we'll just horrified by how far you're like when we read the button. Yeah, yeah That's all there was Like this is like literally like comedian is shooting at DC villains and stuff like that's that level of interactivity Yeah, Joshua writes this consider this a grant for science aka Ethan like you Josh and raise blacks as hey comic-pop don't often get to see you guys live to do time zones Just want to say thank you for your content getting me back in and reading comics. Awesome. Thank you so much And thank you for your contribution mr.

Roboto says does new clock count as a watchman sequel? Yes Yeah, well because it doesn't the watchman universe it takes place after the events of watchman, right? If you so, yeah, with people for watchman, do you know what happens after? Watchman no in do's a clock.

Do you know what happens after watchman? Yeah? Yeah, so yes sequel unless it's a Another watchman unit of an alternate to watchman universe Which it could be yes, if you're gonna say watchman is in the DC multiverse then sure yeah But I would call them like the time we characters they were based on the first place I can't say I've said is that even favorite spider movie love you guys. I know that's your question.

Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry I'm gonna be I would say homecoming. I don't know. Yeah, you see far from home I just see far from home, and I really liked far from home, but it's still like I'm gonna I've only seen far from home once I would have to see it a couple more times to like cement my views of it versus homecoming Right now it's still homecoming that might be an emotional thing where it was the first one yeah with the new universe in the new like part of the More universe thing so it could just be that there's nostalgia for that, but I really love the vulture He's so great. I really like the vulture is so amazing that it's just it's just I mean Jake J.

Hall like knocks out of part of it. Oh, yeah, he's He's great job to be my peat and is better so like just on those on that aspect I gotta give it to homecoming yeah, but like I said I gotta see far from home one or two more times because there could be other cool Stuff in there there is yeah appreciate more on a second. Yeah, yeah, I've seen both of them on repeat doings now And so it's hard yeah, these are your public answers into the swivers I saw you just by verse. I really liked it Yeah, I still like homecoming better.

Yeah, um A comic book fan maybe I'd like in the swider verse more I don't know I mean like I think if you're a dying little spider-man fan then you might like it in the spider-verse more It's all spider-man no references to anything else for me. I believe spider-man is intrinsically marvel So it's like there is no spider-man without the other marvel universe He said against it like the whole point is he he can't be an outsider He can't be a loner in the marvel universe if there is no marvel universe otherwise just he's Superman man He's the super he's the only superhero like only real great with the many movies besides all the radians But you know it which is just literally he's Superman then like there's like oh, thank Christ my man's here There's literally no one else in the universe with powers Right and we have this one guy who has the most mundane comparatively to like what we know about powers which is Superman damn it So like it's her screw. I guess we're screwed unless I happen to be following while he's coming by And Andy callers says hope this hasn't been asked but did DC get their act together on it with the TV on HBO HBO Max Green Lantern could work In cereal I show thanks for your great shows. Thank you very much Andy.

You're not familiar HBO was basically said that DC's got to make like five shows or something what like for HBO's new streaming service and they're giving movie budgets DC said that HBO made the announcement. Oh that they're gonna do yeah full DC shows that are not In the same wheelhouse as like the DC Universe shows or the CW shows he's like movie shows or HBO level quality shows like Stage shows like the one they announced which is Green Lantern Yeah, and I think out of strange which is okay So they're doing like the Netflix Marvel shows equivalent for the DC universe Yes, because I'm sorry arrow and flash are not Netflix level quality No, they straight up aren't yeah, especially do you seen the promo CW released for the Supergirl show? Yes, you're welcome here is Supergirl. It's coming out and it looks like a PlayStation 2 video game and it's like It's it's embarrassing.

Yeah, and I feel bad because I actually I read a thread about that and they were talking about like hi I work in vfx I do work on TV shows These guys had no money and no time and this is the best they could do that's all I can say and I'm like yeah I hear you man. Yeah, but it's out though and we can make fun of it because it looks so Barrel school TV. I mean that's what TV always was until Breaking back very recent. Yeah, it's like sopranos like they like pranos was one of the first to kind of break that damn and like give TV legitimacy But for years like TV was like a joke right from his history compared with movies Yeah, and nobody cared if it was like super high quality If the writing was like really that well I mean look at the differentiation between like TV actors and movie actors And like oh it turns out like being movies and pay as well as being shows so like something true detective has like everyone in it Yeah, well turns out like Paying someone to produce 10 hours of better Yeah, is more than someone who's only being paid for two hours worth of final Yeah, and the and the promise of like maybe additional groups of 10 hours of content plus as an actor is attractive because like I get to work With the character more unless I'm on like an ABC show which case of doing the same character every episode for 17 seasons So, you know Yeah, yeah, yeah, my mom was complaining about this literally the other day she was like I was watching NBC the other day I'm like well, there's a problem.

Yeah, I'm like, well, why weren't you watching Netflix right if you have the choice or Hulu or FX or amc or HBO or HBO what are you doing? There is a I think there's a role for the more traditional filled with commercials. Yeah, I love TV It's a little more like turn off your brain. Oh definitely and just like enjoy.

Yeah, I think it's called Big Bang Theory Yes, yeah, the perfect example like I hate the Big Bang Theory. However, I've watched many episodes and laugh and I'm like this was this was fine You know, right there are some days I come home from work and I just want that I've never done that like turn on I'm like, oh, you're not gonna be like no I think it's a fit from like a perspective of like respect It's really I have a problem with it, but like I can't fault like what it is. It's as good as a Most of the show is literally it's the same show. He's just like well, but this time it's nerves.

Yeah, okay And it's a wonder what the production so like there's gonna be no marvle it right there There are other DC nerds. Yes, I think they're all I think they're all nerves, but like it was a one-and-a-dress like Thor and it was like Thor the God But he pretended like it was Thor. Yeah But that's the kind of thing that's those are details not like why the show sucks like the show sucks like sports night This is a day to me, but sports night was a show that I think Aaron's sort can produce it And it was like I guess I found it so offensive because it was a show that was not a comedy But it was billed as one yeah, it was actually kind of over there like we're gonna release a comedy as no jokes And it just tell a single joke and we're gonna see if anyone responds to it and thankfully America said no, but like yeah But a few people were like Radio and I'm like oh no another news radio. I love this radio.

It is nothing like news radio. It's news radio It's many jokes. I know but news radio and actual convenience I compare news radio to sports night because the same level of fanaticism comes out As you do with sports night because I get so weird like news radio. Yeah, that's where you're drawing the line That's sports night.

Yeah, I don't remember those things hardly I watch like three episodes of sports night maybe Certainly more episodes of news radio. I want to say I watched one episode of sports night. It's the worst thing I couldn't believe my eyes I had to watch like oh, it was I think it was on commie central and I was like I got nothing to do Yep, I'm just watch the other one. I'm like I get everyone on the screen.

Yeah, so watchman So they may say like when it came to watchman You know they put out the book and then nothing for a while Yeah, and then they did before watch me we talked about that then they did the movie Which was the movies before before watchman? Maybe it was I was trying the same time Yeah, they were capitalized on it because of course one of those production right but you know you expect I think they're around the same time But you have the movie which in and of itself is like not so much a sequel but a reimagining Yes, the first time you see is the first time since I guess before watchman that Alan Moore got really really upset about watchman Since he remembered that he was a work for hire artist who was just doing a job for company Right, and then suddenly realized that like he wasn't actually gonna get to keep it. Yeah, you know I don't know how mad he is Hardly any comments from him at all regarding because he doesn't really talk about it Well, he's he's clean. He's never seen the movie Yes, because I think it was and that's funny because I would assume that he's just all horrible But it all came from what's it called?

Alex G. Alex G the League of Extra N Oh, because his name is on that Yes, it is the worst right and he was like and after that he proclaimed no like my name will be on any more Adaptations the case with beef and data and that was the case for watching what up from hell right? I think for I think hell from hell was before I leave we started out so I'll bet his name is on that Yeah, also equally unappreciated. I didn't really see from hell But I didn't even the trailer didn't appeal to me and then I was like oh it's a work comic which year huh?

Yeah, when did he ride it? Yeah, but yeah, I'm looking up now Which one was first cuz now I'm yeah watch movies 2009 before was 2012. Oh, yeah So the movie came up first that was the first time that Alan working in outrage Yeah, and I'm mad at somebody taking his his work and doing profit from it Yeah, arguably when it's next night's best movies because he didn't actually get to be creative with it Like I'll just do the book. Yeah, what's that God?

Oh, I know that's why that movie was like at all good Well, I mean if you ever heard the story history of you But the tragic Watchmen you heard the tragic history of the watchmen movie attempts or like Gary Gilliam was attached to make the watchmen We'll be back like a seven or 88 or whatever. Yeah, and he was like oh, we're just gonna start from scratch I'm gonna rewrite the whole goddamn thing like it was gonna end with like Dan and Laurie like getting sucked through a wormhole I think up in the real world where the watchmen is a comic book that they're reading and they're like God You're gonna Brazil watchmen, please Jesus. Well, that was in the 80s. I guess where's like yeah, well the movie is a total We're not gonna do the comic book obviously talking about yeah, we want to money So it's not gonna be the comic book.

I'm gonna cut it up into pieces and just just take what's good Yeah, and then we'll and put we then put garbage around Oh, I would say that whenever we come up with this really yeah I mean the same thing as we said with Batman 89, you know to Merton is said on record like everyone who's ever the quote is I Would anyone who's ever known my work would know I would never read a comic book So it's like and then of course he's got he's a quote on the dust-jagger killing jokes saying like this is one of my favorite Comic books and I'm like well sure because you don't read because you've read like any of them baby This is the one I've read yeah, it's also one of my favorites maybe even my favorite and it's also my least favorite Because it's because it's the one thing I've ever read that's a comic Anyway, but watchmen has had his story history when it came to movie adaptations ultimately when Terry Gilliam was like you can't film it It's unfilable everyone's like fair enough. No one of those like okay. Yeah, that's true. But Yeah, it is unfilable.

I agree with that now that being said let's give the guy made don't know Well, I think it's let's give the guy made 300 And in fact Like so I like you and it's and if you've ever read the comic You see the hundred if you ever see the movie you're rather right there's a couple of things in there I mean the goat man is in the movie is it and is in the comic sword arms is in the comic yeah He's only in it from like a panel right he's not me sword arms gets more screen time than he gets panel Yeah, yeah, it's just proportioned about a screen time. Yeah, it's weird you think like what why are there sort of people? Doesn't yeah, no, no, no, no, I just want to draw that for a second Yeah, then he made watchman, which was the first kind of like big change I think for watching because it was like let's change the ending yeah, which like yeah, of course But was that was that though the well all bets are all over for you or for anyone oh like when they made the movie I mean the first adaptation of watchman, you know what I have predicted at that moment that they were gonna do like the prequel No, no, just like no, I was that was that was that terrible? No?

That hurt the comic In the sense that like there are now people who probably that is the only version of watchman They've ever seen and they have an opinion of watchman based on that movie having no idea what the comic is like that is sad Yeah, to me that thought is sad right if I had a perfect universe nobody was The people who watch the movie who don't read the comic are gonna read the comment first place true So like as such maybe that means that like that's nice because at least I got some I guess Although you know, you know, it's not as interpretation of what yes, I mean having seen that I like that movie I like to I was very different yeah, then the comic even though it covers it like beat for beat like the tone is very different Yeah, I think it's interesting. Yeah, there are a couple things in there where I'm like you know You clearly wanted to do something that like you took the material seriously, but then also wanted to do like something else Yeah, why is Nixon such a clown? Like he might as well go a roo in that movie like and that's just one nitpick the slow motion fight scenes In fact like I think that Zack Snyder thinks that Dan is a superhero like you know what I mean like they definitely up the kinetic actioniness of yes, this sleepy deconstructures Where well particularly night out to rescuing the people for the fire like that is kicked up to the rescue of worship act It's kicked up to a thousand like that's it's a movie like it has to the I guess yeah With watchmen it was like editors more givens these are the people involved in making that book Yeah, with the movie it's Snyder the like script that like adaption the producers of which there are like five You know, like there's like a zillion opinions that are and they're lucky you got what you got Yeah, they sound so many opinions all of them think they're the most creative people in the room right so I Think that probably they're like you gotta get some cool action in there totally and so given that constraints They did something interesting with it I think and for me that the clue was the costume for Dayas and for now as well. Oh look like that man.

It's just Schumacher Yeah, it's like okay. It's like a joke right at least it's a joke You know at least you're doing like a little parody kind of thing right there You're shining the line yourself as well as so if you've got to get this like ultra violent action stuff in there Like okay, at least you're doing at least you're saying something about it. Yeah, it's not just it's not just straightforward Right, so I appreciate that aspect of it true. So okay, then we cut to before watchmen now There's a prequel now.

I think that is the biggest affront to watchmen. Yeah because it informs the material This is the movie was an adaptation you literally know like that's a whole separate thing That's the movie it looks like the comic right? It's not the comic doesn't it doesn't try to say it's the comic You know it's funny the Gillian version actually would have messed up a little more because like if the movie had ended where like The comic book that's like saying that that's the real life. Yeah, what you're reading is the end of the watch movie Yeah, like you know that would be terrible idea.

I agree But before watchmen is part of the history now The reason why there are like letters articles and other snippets of information in the book the original watchman told I think you know Yeah, it's because that's the maximum amount of information that the creators want you to have about those characters No more no less and to allow you to interpret as such based on the available information To then give you like a backstory on Laurie or like give you a story about like what was it like to watch? Worschach and Knight I will kick ass and take names like no Yeah, to me that ruins one of the best parts of watchmen. What is the the world building in watchmen? It's like you said it's like just the right amount That's right, you know and I don't necessarily think that when they were creating those elements that it was part of like a great plan It's like we're gonna put just enough information.

I think it was just like let's put some stuff in sure yeah But only the stuff they felt was a necessary component right there They didn't think it was necessary to have a lot more I don't know that necessarily a whole lot of thought went into it other than the the outlines of what the history would have been sure But that's like perfect because it allows the reader to build in their imagination the rest of the game Yeah, I have an impression of how we got from the original set of heroes Yeah, watchman universe to the present day status quo in as told in watchmen I don't have it all mapped out in my head I don't want it to be I have a feeling about it and and some rough thoughts about it and to me It's really cool right interesting and if you if you start saying well This is what actually happened it can only detract exactly well because it will because it rubs you of your Authenticity or your authority over the work. You're no longer the author. Yeah or of your own interpretation. Yeah Yeah, I agree before watchman damages watchman.

Yeah, um regardless of how good it is Yeah, you know, right right Darwin Cook wrote the I think the least damaging one is Darwin Cook did the minute Man book or he's like this is what these the adventures in it. Yeah, and people say that's like You know, but even then it's still like you know It's in there is like the comedian in his relationship with like with still specter and you're like oh no I don't I only need to know this much and then and then to be able to interpret it But like because of that gives you that you know at least they pick the best people for the job But it was a job to still shovel shit right so it's like how glamorous could it possibly be and that sucks Yeah, it's still someone else's vision of what you were left to interpret. Yeah, and of what the original creator You know if I was gonna if I was gonna consent to any prequel it would be written by Ellen right Right, that's the only one that I could also like send I might even say that devil's still don't do it Well, I would say never do it because devil's advocate on dark night returns is one of my favorite convo time Yeah, let's get the original creator to come back 20 years later and do a sequel He doesn't even he's not even ruining it. He's also misinterpreting the message he left in the last book ah But don't forget to that he did your one which is good right, but he did that around the same exact time Yeah, that's the thing like Alan Moore right every world of what we like today.

No, I think I would love to read it But I also think it would hurt in the 80s. Yeah, like 80s early 90s. I could have accepted Ladies early 90s early 90s they were like they came back he would done it as a sprite writing You know he was right he was helping it right like I'm in the way history unfolded Yeah, I could do that I'm wrong I'm gonna finish the next issue of young blood for the opposition I'll be over to fucking right you see watch like yeah, it would be like hate he would be like hate fucking yeah Oh no, the only way to get a prequel I would have actually like would have been for history would have been entirely different And he wrote it out to not a crime or if Alan were written like you like Tolkien and all these things and then he died And he seemed like you know like the pages and then published and even then like no. Yeah, I don't know if I want that Well, and it sucks.

Yeah, but it's suck. You know like any of the works after Tolkien. I like the silver really I think is wrote that I can't remember Like Frankenstein together by some it's not really in its basic with a Bible I'm not looking for a narrative like satisfying tail right now. I'm getting history.

I'm getting annexes and I haven't read the lost tales or I don't know they're probably terrible No, I can't even imagine so before last man, you know And then it came out it came out like a lion and not like a lamb it came out everyone's like right Oh, can you shoot it? Do this? Oh, and then it came out and then it was like yeah, like what's next? Yeah You should have seen like people were crying in like the meeting about whether we should do it or not Like No, and then the community large like we went Yeah, oh Brian as well wrote the freaking comedian book.

Yeah, I can imagine I could probably write that my own head No, yeah, gross. Yeah, fair enough like let me guess it's deeply uncomfortable. Yeah. Yeah, I guess the condemnation of the entire genre Like cool, okay.

Yeah, but like Right, so yeah moving on to the Actually, look at the timeline so 2009 movie that's when they woke up and decided we're gonna make money on It's only the culture This one DC was like fuck Alan Moore Conversation Alamoors like yeah, good fuck walk out the door slam DC is a company Underneath your ass we're Batman bitch. Yeah, all right. Yeah, so the 10 broke So then for years later three years later before watch more like okay, so we're gonna do like a seat Oh, it was a minute man and so expector and I know and Rorschach And The team that you don't see Yeah, I wish like what was the idea I ever thinking I first heard about that I was like oh so they're gonna do like one and then I'm gonna do next yeah stretch out for like a year no No, no once here. Hey, he does You're fifty two new fucking titles all the four dollars are you crazy?

Yeah, I'm gonna bombard you with titles. Yeah, good strategy You know, you know, that's never good strategy. It's never worked ever. Hey, here's 17 choices.

How about no choice? Whoa, but I gave you 17 You know that tells me that tells me that they didn't have confidence in the idea So they were like if we stretch it out within the first three months people gonna be like this sucks And they're gonna be able to sell anymore. Yeah, but if we dump them all at once Some people buy all of them. That's exactly before the scuttle butt is a big collective man.

Yeah, right? That's to be suggested lack of confidence in which case don't do it. Yeah, I feel like maybe it wasn't just Screw you maybe it was actually more like we should make a sequel like right now And it's been and someone at some levels like And just for years Everyone who said no, it's not retiring or needing money and so eventually Alright, let's do this. Oh shit.

What's happening? Call it everyone. That's good that we have that we have a phone number for At least they did that. Yeah, we're like hey Scott Lodeau.

Here's freaking here's my ass. Oh, no But I wonder how many people said no, right? What do they call who's like? I don't want to touch that.

I would love to see that list. I'm like you're never gonna see that last I get no I bet you don't get it individually from each person. Oh, you know why because like they're not in the book like Greg Morrison said no No way that they didn't ask Grant Morrison. You know, I mean they he's their architect They want to say fuck you down more they should pull up all the stops again For you to offer him like the I want more number.

Okay. I want what price will you pay what we do? We have to pay for you to come back right sequel. I know you're normal.

All right, great Morrison want to give you 11 million dollars Yeah, that would make it they really yeah, that shows they didn't really that it was not a spike flash because they didn't get Grant Morrison radical radishes either should be more things. That's all that is fair Rusky says is any watch would follow doom to fail and if so why I think so because a mix of watch would be a product of It's time and more unique vision. I think you guys went there, but also like Watch what's new watch what doesn't do the fail. Well the movie did fail and also And also the sequel isn't doing well because of other factors, but it's also celebrated Hailed right it's gonna be hard to tell with the HBO show right because you're not gonna get ratings numbers Yeah, critically it's definitely successful.

It's clearly the most successful critically of the three. Yeah Is that a success? I don't know I don't think it's doomed to fail if we're talking about financially I think always would make money on stuff you do it creatively enough fail Well, they all fail because they don't honor the work although you know if you're talking about TV show or movie They're their separate entities although the TV show is a sequel to watch me deliberate literal follow-up to watch me Yeah, if the question is can everything go into fail in as much as it won't be as good in its time as the original was in its time I think yes probably because like you said it is a product of its time It has the most impact if you're in the time in which it is written right now timeless works to have the ability to reach its audience But like the themes and ideas that it's tackling are distinctly 1986 and you know while you can understand it You can't quite put yourself there. Yeah emotionally I feel like it's a very different experience not I would know in the cold war or having the memory of the Cold War be that Fresh night before you get from it the more the less the impact yeah Yeah, so there are like universal aspects of it just like a universal aspect aspects of like Shakespeare But I think Shakespeare's kind of the same way where if you were alive in that time probably you'd get more out of that than anyone could today It's I've taught Shakespeare and I will tell you that like part of the Better understanding of Shakespeare like it's easy to say it's timeless.

No, look at them using What are they doing references to people who are empowered during that time? Don't you relate? You know you need to get through that and you need to be like you need to contextualize it be like this is funny because of this Here's what they're referencing You know, it's like watching a movie Yeah, here and if you give them the context and they can understand appreciate it better You know, it's like the Simpsons from 20 years ago and you're like who are they making fun of? Why did they make fun of the chubby chubby chubby show who is chubby ch Ace like you know, you need the content the cultural understanding Yeah, to get the full like value out of it.

Yeah, Robbie Miller says Kubrick should have directed watchman's adaptation I think I think Kubrick would have never done that. No, I could be the kind of guy who would say something like Conoc books or for losers. I don't know if that's true and you know forgive me. He loves them.

Who knows but I'll bet he doesn't love the sequel to the shining that's coming out Sorry, you and McGregor and like CG versions of the things that he used in his movie like I'm sure He didn't I'm sure Cooper would not appreciate seeing the shining that pop up and ready player what? Yeah, I was like, oh, yeah, was it interesting. Yeah, but but the shining was based on a book so Hey, so But is it really I just meant Cooper made something based on book maybe he probably make it something graphic novel Yeah, he is he does he does not shine with meditations. So maybe watchman I think if any if he was ever going to do an annotation watchman would have been the one to sway him.

That's fair. Yeah, we'll never know Danny Blackston or blacks and TV says five different services to watch everything. I hate it. Yeah, you know we hate it Yeah, we thought about it before yeah, there's a whole episode we're talking about that the death of media Mr.

Robodos who in comic-pop would have been the Sheldon Cooper Keenan Eddie Eckenberg says sad I can't say I feel do say clock would have been something truly special but its impact was ruined in more Defense name a good adaptation of Moore's work except man who has everything Yeah, the man was everything the Yeah, yeah, the man is everything the story. Yeah, JMD Mateus did a episode of just like cartoon is a adaptation of that book It's really great. It's perfect and actually when I talked to the Mateus on this show I was like I hear more likes that and he was like Because he doesn't Google himself, but I looked it up and I saw that like apparently reportedly not on record There are two adaptations works that he likes one is the watchman animated series And the other one is the just like a movie That's yeah, that's true, right? But I like we said like I dig the watch movie I think it's fine.

I'm like I love it But also was like wow that's a movie. I enjoy watching it I watched it. I'm gonna say like three times ever and I would watch again So to me I feel like that's a good yeah, right? It doesn't hold a candle to the original work so in that sense I guess it's not good No, and while but there's almost nothing that does ever right when you're reading watchman like you find new things and you You find some new meaning.

Oh, yeah, the book is like this dense like tone the movie It's just it's just it's just the stuff in the pages that's put on the screen Yeah, it's like a surface level kind of reflection a couple kind of cool things going on Yeah, it's all I expect for most movies I'm not asking for a great movies on a very different scale, you know Like then I do books Yeah, it's really hard to like reach that like level of like quality and sophistication that you get in the graphic novel of watchman in a movie There's a lot of movies that do that and it's certainly not making any of them No agreed. Yeah, so I never read v for vendetta people like that movie though I like the movie better than the comic there you go and that's probably a really good one phony It's like read it. It's V isn't a character. He's like a plot device slash like engine of the story the story isn't really even like linear like it's all over the place and No one is sympathetic which like there's there's plenty of books like that not just comic But also books like most novels I've read have wholly unsympathetic And but V is in the protagonist which is like fine But when you read like or when you watch me for it out you're like oh like they did something with it Like I think it was transformative right what you hear all the time on YouTube.

Here's a question This is super off topic is tangent from what you just said. Yeah, who do you what do you blame for the unsympathetic protagonist? Right in American literature Because the unsympathetic protagonist is pervasive in British literature because the English hate themselves are As always in the case. I'm okay I mean like look at Christopher Robin You know like they they everyone Peter Pan.

Yeah, yeah Oh, I have no idea. I think he's American. I think he is because because of course he is right So anyway, yeah, the reason why I think that the the other thing is a thing is is reflective of the culture It's why like it's why Russian literature is so freaking depressing and why like American literature is so hopeful and hypocritical Mm-hmm like it for the most part when it came to the books that I taught it was either a reflection like the books that were written American Literature, it's like I think it was gonna go earlier not on the show It's why I think American culture loves superheroes so much and why why our other like and it's because our folk heroes are totally lame and stupid You mean like ball-pung in Johnny Apple's yeah, I think that like here are some here are our Because you know like the English a freaking King Arthur We also by the way, it's like, you know why British literature is a person King Arthur's there He's an asshole and a racist like and I'm racing against like people that divinity in this It's just different like oh, I don't like the sachts. Yeah, fuck you But the American literature it's like well this big dumb guy with an axe has a big dumb blue What like you know plants trees and also our country so young that like you know Johnny Apple's he was a real person And you know those apples were so we're crab apples like they weren't even delicious tasty apples You know way more punch yeah, I know when I criticize it when I used it my lessons.

I was like Johnny Applecy I didn't want to be actually Johnny Applecy was a You look Johnny Applecy, yeah, I'm like I'm like all right I got an apple sucked and he was a freaking real guy I need to really do anything in fact his apples were more of an invasive species and hurting the ecology a little bit So it's like yeah, which also is just like the American It's like hey, let's celebrate our heroes actually the monsters like hey, let's over Chris for Columbus day like damn it I'm Italian, but yeah, but like hey listen American Pokey or if you're boring then Stanley comes along and he's like you could be a superhero you could save You are selfless you are like strong. You know you don't believe you deserve your power and It's also and also you have a dope outfit Like I think that's why I think that's certainly why American cinemas embrace like superhero movies Yeah, and why like they expect them like even before the Marvel the Marvel invasion Yeah, like when's an act bad movie when super hero movie Yeah, that means also like I wish for film like I would love to be selfless and awesome and powerful and strong and and and tell people and rich And rich on top. Yeah, and I'm kind of damaged I'm a little dark. Yeah, but sexy dark.

I embrace the darkness I'm not gonna sell my cell lot blondes to go out with me like I mean like I think but so yeah I think that but in American literature literally it's either like don't be idiot protagonists or Racism is bad. No like that's literally every book that I read as a kid when I was a student and every book that I was told to teach I'm like oh, yeah, I'm like Absolutely not No, we're gonna start Last I like some of American literature I've read a ton of it, but I read the big ones in school. Yeah, but I remember the natural Baseball I read the great gas be oh the great the great gas be no one is a protagonist Nick He's the narrator. He's the narrator.

He's the narrator, but like it ain't about Nick. No, you know, there's no one like a bull in that book No, I don't enjoy it. Yeah, I like really but like here's the thing It's about like context you need to know about what it was like in the 20s You can read the great guys before yeah, but you know about what life was like in the 20s Yeah, I just saw a picture yesterday. It's awesome It was a picture of a guy in a three-piece beautiful brand new suit standing next to his Rolls Royce with a cardboard sciences $100 because he lost everything in the stock.

Oh wow and he's like he clearly was here and then $100 basically 1800 bucks. Yeah, so it's like no he needed rent and food Like that's the kind of context you need for reading things like Fitzgerald. Yeah, or a different world Neil Simon Is a playwright plays are different thing to no one's happy place. No Yeah, you're really play where everything works out fine Cats my chest even cats they all die I guess I was like all right in all those years.

They saw the advertisers for cats the Winter Garden Theater I was forever talk all telecharged one two eight three nine six two hundred no, no I was like I thought they were space cats. I thought they were from space. They were aliens Oh, they were like human size. They were human size and when they fucking take off the other back to you know, but like I didn't think they were Soon did I exactly everything so big I really thought that they were space cats and they were like going back to the mother Yeah, well cuz you can't in the in the hell on a platform with lights.

Yeah, it's a space ship. Nope. They're going to die. Yeah Some of the movie.

I'm sure you like it. But anyway Yeah, yeah, Mr. Roboto has said his thing I think oh of all potential watchmen sequels act as alternate universes How many watchmen sequels do you want do you watch at oh how many watchmen sequels do you watch all some or none? I mean like the fact is you can you can read all of them.

It's just more like You know, it's really bad you like about your creation like if you love watchmen No one is putting a gun to your head and telling you got watch the show. I haven't you know, we both have HBO Yeah, I might watch some of it at some point. Yeah, it's on my list of like I might check that out There are some freaking shows and I love watchmen. So I don't really need a sequel right But there's all we even get a chance to talk about this doomsday clock which is a straight up not only to see I mean one thing if John's like I do see watchmen, but it's another for me to go I need a single watchman and also put that in it and it's like oh wait, but no Yeah, no literally doo-zay clock is DC being like hey watchmen We own that don't we yeah, why and we have this whole huge universe this multiverse right of stuff that we have always mixed The magic and we why watch man?

The fact that we play just a tip with water for us to and all the crime syndicate and stuff Please we're like we've been like just one just just wink in and out away from comedian just showing up and being an antagonist And using it while we just go full-till yeah, we just do that look we already did friggin No with all the planets the pieces of Convergence coverage already did convergence. We already brought friggin every every kingdom come Superman every good high quality product that we produced We've already turned into a dumbass like like witchcraft in a poorly written crappy thing Right the reestablished air back into the main DC continuity lucky us right so like what are we standing on ceremony right? We're actually like we're better than that pretty yeah, they all know the internet's here our creators are tweeting you know People are leaking stuff. I heard this is going back years.

I had heard from an anonymous source That the plan after Justice League versus suicide squad the plan was the book was gonna be called Justice League versus Watchmen Like that was the plan and it's like wow what a horrible idea. He's not just a horrible idea But like what how would that okay? I don't understand how this even mechanically works. I don't want you to get into it We're gonna do yeah, but the way watchmen ends.

Yeah, there's no team. No no The team the collection of Rorschach and night owl and like document hat and they're not called the watchmen They are that hilarious cartoon which you should go look at it. You haven't see that you have to go watch it now It's the one interpretation of watchmen that more has signed off on entirely Yeah, it's a Saturday morning cartoon interpretation of what like corporate suits in the 80s would have made watchmen Do every shot is a bastard is a shit hilarious lip-flipping of like the truth theme There was a dog and worship in the same like contact I don't know but I can justify based on that Yeah, no, but like how does it work yeah, I mean there's no team This is like versus the watchman like there is no watchman. They're not a thing doesn't exist Like just like what it would have been oh, it would have been a dumber version of music Yeah, because do say clock is there is no team now like okay It's literally like people are tricked and like go places like you know I mean, yeah, it's not yeah, it makes sense especially if you exist It's just it's crossing over the universe of the watchmen It's establishing that the watchman universe is technically part of the multiverse Which also sucks because it means there's like a cowboy version of the watchman You know what I mean?

It's not like there's water that's watchman and then that's it like no There's gotta be there's gotta be like everyone's a vampire right You know there's one with the Nazis took over right there's a gangster watchman universe Which is weird because watchman already is an alternate history of earth We all are mean like you know the DC multiverse is true the conceit is that bat man exists in all of those universe And not to mention the dark multiverse see that be a fun twist is it cuz you know No, you know in stranger things when like will takes the map of or whoever takes the map of like the world and flips over and talks The underside literally how these dabble just a dark Grant Morrison's dumb map of the multiverse they go but flip it over. There's like this evil inverse of the entire multiverse Yeah, they just strip or straight up rip off stranger things. It's just unabashedly just take that that's mine That's fine. That's fun.

That being said like yeah, well now some of the comments Yeah, but stranger things just ripped off like blah blah blah. Yeah, which I'm sure is true right so in the great Traditional ripping off other people stuff. I guess it's fine. Yeah.

Well, I guess then everything's okay, right? Since it's happened already was or nothing's okay, you know, whatever you want it to be but yeah But anyway, so yeah, we'll put up a bunch of it like it's always all dark earths We're like everyone's bad decision results in the twisted evil version of sure and also watch Yeah, the one place are what's happening because like it worked because I was in my days play works Of course do stick lock, you know the conceit it didn't work. Well, it worked for a while Yeah, but that's someone found worship journal or whatever Yeah, Donald Trump becomes president. Oh, of course in the book.

I'm like, it's not even like it's Dark, you know, it's Ronald. It's Ronald. Yeah, nope, not even trying. No, okay But yeah, so Doomsday clock is a thing that and the thing with this weird about do's a clock is that it is a achievement like it's critically Yeah, like everyone was like no and then like no trust me and when it came out It was like this is this is admittedly high quality high caliber care and I think it has a lot to do with the fact There's only like two people involved Ideas even if it was like from one person right from one person's brainchild.

I don't know if that's true or not But when it came to do stick like it's like I have this idea and I'm writing at the end and I'm gonna get Gary Frank He's in draw it. No other artists just Gary Frank and it's like three years Gary Frank said by the way somebody asked a super chat I guess I should get to it. Yeah in which they said which finishes first the HBO show or do's a clock because Do's a clock number one came out shortly after your comic con two years ago. I remember all my yeah I have two posters that they gave us like ah Trust me No, it's this is a question here.

What do you mean the show? I guess when they make the last season show when they cancel the show or whatever because the answer is the do's a clock We'll finish first because literally like two days ago Gary Frank tweeted on pages are gone We're done. It will be out probably by the end of December Unless unless watchmen is a horribly commercial failure right like in terms of the show I don't do anything and it was like no and they cancel it the way that like no show is canceling more like three episodes No, it's over. It's the watchmen show is it coming out like weekly?

I think it all dropped at once No, it's all right, you know, so but do take a clock oddly enough somehow manages to like escape the the ire What is that like why like how did watchmen get away with it? And it's like maybe because the before watchmen didn't get the same treatment maybe because it doesn't change The story of watchmen like the prequels do exactly right because a sequel to watchmen is like a sequel to anything Yeah, no, you literally do it again You can do a sequel watchman tomorrow. Yeah, like no, it's a lot to count Yeah, because they did the same alien predator terminator all those any movie right Batman Yeah, it's easier to pretend ever happened. Yeah, that's in the future of the thing that I Like right and the future hasn't been written yet.

It's whatever we've exactly very nice background Adam Fenha or house says keep them lights on We will keep those like yeah, well that that will go a long way towards people. It's yeah Because I saw our rent bill on the desk of the landlord on the bathroom a few minutes ago Noah Coo says super chatting for Ethan love that guy. Yeah, he's pretty great. Thanks But yeah, so I guess that's right It's just that watchmen do say clock succeeds where before watching fail because it doesn't it doesn't presume to tell you what really happened Right, I mean even though it does it does it like the plan doesn't work and they have to come to see what's going to happen Yeah, just like now exactly like matters in DC universe They changed it every friggin like five years So like and it's actually brilliantly written and explained because like the character He's like everyone's got these dumb new costumes from the new 52 and like even after rebirth They were like yeah, but like we still never had a crisis that said new 52 didn't happen So like technically all the bullshit and all the old stuff happened all at once right because they never really clean house So whatever so with John seems like not everyone's wearing the costumes from pre-nifty to like it's just it's all the stuff that you like from that Yeah, and also new characters that we invented post-nifty to that like Presuming that you think like was going to be like a reboot I was going to fix everything well Yeah, cuz you're a volume document hat and I thought that was kind of the point exactly the hand and change everything well And do exactly like they actually they established a new interpretation of the DC universe itself, which is awesome everyone again That's what people like it's like the way it interacts with the DC universe Yeah, it's it's more like watchmen is a device that they use it's not so much that like they were like Let's make a single watchman because I need to know what happened to friggin whatever like to to Laurie Yeah, yeah, yeah, do they those two crazy kids ever get married or what they never get up?

I don't know let's find out like he did in the book I know in the ship yeah, yeah, or it's at least it's a part of the artwork but Instead of that it's it does that too, but it also It's used as an instrument to fix the DC universe which is kind of like meta in itself. You know why it's because there's a thought behind it It's just like So I think that's what it is. Okay, but it doesn't and because sequel I think we can say to her watchman. Yeah It's just after not in the same way anyway.

No, certainly will does press the 840 says a little late But no sequel wouldn't mind seeing more doctrine hat and interacting Yeah, that's a fun character and Him and him and fun fun. Yeah, we spun character read about yeah in do's the clock. It's interesting. No, that's cool.

Yeah, it's neat Yeah, the whole thing is do's a clock has me fascinating. I'm just like, oh, it's cool. Okay, so Then you have the show that and then the show which is also the show is all yeah, it is a sequel to what? I mean the book I guess it is I understand it takes the events of the book as if they happen yeah, although Yes, including the squid monster good everything right But it's like wait later like it happened when it happened in the book now now now now so it's now it's happening now It's happening now.

Right. So for 30 years Would be the conceit so I guess it's kind of like perfect because it's enough distance from it that they can kind of do whatever they want And I think that's exactly what they're doing. That's how it feels like every trailer I saw for that show I was like isn't even watchman like that's why I conspired by watchman It felt a lot like they were like I've got this really like dark crazy revolutionary like racially themed like drama Yeah, and I think it might be deemed too subversive, but if I attach the name watchman to it now I can just go Oh, right. All the themes and ideas were putting forward well possibly now again I'm seen it only read about it to me It looks like they took the concept of who watches the watchman right and they like really ran like with that Yes, interesting because that wasn't like a huge part of the book at all the book is more like the aftermath of everyone's saying like Well, who's watching the watchman and then like dealing with that?

Yes, it's more like no, but like really no who is what like well and because it's it's it's Addressing and shining light on to these themes and talking about like everything It could be someone saying like well that aspect of watchman is actually like pretty relevant to things being talked about Within the last five years or so like maybe now is the time. Yeah now that's given a lot of credit Yes, but I would say that's a little bit more than just like then they just have a lot of watchman like aesthetic on top of it Yeah, which will cause like right on down to like we have masks and stuff We're workshacks big lot on the masks. Yeah, we do that yeah It works whether it's worse or not that concept like what if the police were masked that that obviously you don't need Roach, no, but he just kind of adds like his history and his ideology Just like adds a little bit to that unless you actually like think about who well That's the thing like it's not a direct like it doesn't make a lot of sense like why why Russia? Well, I mean because 30 years later.

Yeah, it's like a baster station of it It's called the Sun to Batman like you don't have the ideology of Batman No, it was he's a symbol that they can they can they can put a name to their violence Yeah, and I'm not saying that that's what they're doing watchman It's more like the inverse right there. They're taking they're forgetting they're taking his visual and throwing away all the stuff But it's like his racism and his homophobia. Yeah, or are they? I mean, I don't know.

Yeah, I haven't seen the show But I've read that that gets added in a little bit later Exactly, so maybe it will tie better into watch ex ideology Who's to say but again because it is a sequel because it is like an interpretation of the work that is taking it further away from it Like the movie not as a sequel but more like like the movie. Yeah, it is allowed to then be like it's not the book Like it's not gonna touch the book. It's funny How the comics should damage the work because not only from the same, you know John run the same media, but also the things that are written in the media that are eating off watchmen are in of themselves You know informing the original text with the movies and shows like yeah, whatever, you know, well you can ignore those Yeah, you say it's a separate it's separate thing part of it exactly. It's not it's not a front It's not trying to be yeah, that's a thing like we're trying to we're trying to take what you like and just sell it back to you Yeah, just tell you more more of that written by someone else And it feels like doomsday clock because it has like a thing that he's trying to say that he's more like I'm Unafraid to use watchmen to tell this story and that's kind of great.

It's like a narrative device Yeah, well, he's like well and also like if I want to be true to the ideology of Washmen being this transformative work that is important. I shouldn't be afraid to use it. Yeah, but you do still have worship like fighting like Give that I was not like Like what that would say I wouldn't even get I would be like hey, I would even give you the better. Yeah, yeah, if that was the case Nope Yeah, please I can't think of a bigger fuck you Right he has to die Stories completely different if he doesn't die yet.

Yeah, no Exactly spoilers for watchmen, right? Yeah, and then we're like selling Jesse Raphael They give him a shower makeover. Yeah, so Walter here's gonna be talking all about the secret government, you know cool But before we get to there he's gonna get a makeover Yeah, we get a diction coach now That's not what do take lock is but comic goblin says I think the one thing that could hurt DC do's a clock in the end is if it unfortunately doesn't affect much in the End in 2017 felt like more I would have had major. Yeah, so like it's taking so long.

Oh absolutely No, they not really be able to do what they wanted in terms of impact That's the thing is that like it is John's had something to say and he wanted to do something with it. It's implicit. It's inherent in the work I don't want to say that if it doesn't like result in a reboot or some kind of like, you know big thing at the end that it wasn't worth it Because I want to stand up zone, but I also think it is important to be Vital to the right if it's not a big part of conduit that can't take something away from it It does and it's like well, and what's the point? Like why did you do this?

Yeah, why do we go through that? It was like when there's a moment's in do's the clock that reference It's very apart from continuity like it's kind of like you don't really know what it is And then they reference like with a quarter vowels and stuff and you're like no You just invented in time well the other thing is like I know when I first heard about it when I was first reading about like the Thoughts I'm like oh, maybe like Manhattan like makes the DC over right or intrinsically affects it in some way I was like okay at least you're making watchman like super important Yes, which almost justifies dragging its like corpse up to animate and walk around yes like we can never any right if it's just like oh No, we're not doing that. It's just like we told the story that involves washman It's like then why did you bring it up? Why did you why did you go nuclear and the first thing part is the reason they did is because It was going to be right because the end of the day and then if you fail to do that That's just like even more pathetic.

Yeah, yeah, then it's like I mean Is the book will be done probably by January and because it was so freaking late They were just like we need to make money off it now So like a month ago or less they put out the first six issues in a trade Like because you get a trade of like part of that volume one Jesus the clock a 12 issue series just because they were like well I need to start paying dividends now. Yeah, which should tell you everything you need to know about like its impact Which is to say there isn't going to be one yeah, the first thing will be when it does drop and it does complete and like You know you have creatives who work there and fans who read it who are like this needs to be important No, I know higher up being like but it's not though, but it's not though. I've already passed it. Yeah, no You're gonna catch the chat.

Yeah, you understand 5G 5G coming out. We got What the hell is that? Besides a friggin cellular standard. Yeah, but that's cool.

That's like it's you know the kids know about 5G We're also gonna be so the guys who help were responsible for ruining DC's like continuity are now rewriting the timely the official timeline for DC We're gonna fix it I was never had a road map which I've always said but the worst people to write that road map are people who fricking ruined it in the first place They're doing this road map and they're like okay We're gonna go here here here and this will be the new continuity or at least the new timeline Which is the worst thing you could possibly do is give DC a timeline where you have dates in it Yeah, but where like you can't budget before yeah, because fudgy doesn't physically import But you know make everyone who writes a book read the timeline You know you write you gotta read this you gotta study this and be a test on it Here's the I think I should because like if you're gonna write this your universe you should least know when the hell you're dead But then they're not gonna be able to get like Neil game in or whoever like Oh, no, he's just Work around you or grant the grant. Yeah, Grant's gonna be like great. You have to adhere that yeah, no some of the Special permission yeah anyone who made a movie or like has a or immediately sells books because their names on the book Yeah, they get to do it. Yeah, so oh whoops.

I guess we don't have a T. Yeah, it's not gonna work but they're gonna do this timeline and The new and basically they're dividing up the DC universe into like generation so it's a generation one g2 g3 Okay, or one one g2 g until I get to 5g which is the next generation superheroes for the DC universe So like you know you know just get to do g's one through four like what we'll just explain those were g's like Yeah, I'll never happen. I'll never really happen. No shoehorn in the past Yeah, these four like Lucius Fox's son or nephew or whatever it's me Batman for like 5g you know because like black Batman New York Times black Batman.

Oh, so you're gonna stop writing regular Batman. Yeah, he's gonna retire Stop wait, what are you kidding? Well, excuse me. All right.

All right, we're closed doors. Yeah, of course we're not Obviously back in like six months, but please or two right, you know if everyone stops buying it But do you know me shekels will make right by selling black Batman in the first like month right? Mr. About us could watch would be beyond like Batman.

I mean it basically is right. It's at 35 years of the future Yeah, the show is yeah of the of the book so it's watching beyond. Yeah, watch from beyond I don't know I feel like a no, I would like to see that I didn't see like Worschach with like a with like a you know a camouflage trench coat that also shoots like jetpacks And you can fly around and stuff or you know that would be it wouldn't be worse I could be like night out with three right now. I know two would be like, you know, they're helping them So specter could literally be comic a ghost or something Well because that's not the thing about watch me is they're not superheroes.

They're not comic book characters They're their characters in a story who also were these who were costume adventurers Like to say that to talk about the legacy of the of these characters the legacy is only attached to two characters in that universe Yeah, because they had a legacy and the legacy of all two generations Yeah, so to to to assume that like, you know, Rorschach is a superhero or that like you know Night owl was like, you know should have a lineage is I think a fallacy It's an understanding of watch which is like they're not superheroes like if you're reading watchmen and you're like you know You're appreciating for what it is. Hopefully you don't want to see a sequel to watchmen At the very least you don't want to like see action figures which they made Not just of the of the movie, but of the doomsday clock characters. That's weird. It's very weird.

Like yeah, look at some specter Oh, no, she's taking heroin like you know what works for me for a watchman like show or spin off or whatever Yeah, this is the only thing that worked and this is what I thought watchman the show might be when I was first reading Like just the various like little tiny bits about it right before I actually read something like here's what it is I thought it was gonna be like a Like a twilight zone kind of thing where it's like watchmen and it's like vignettes that are inspired by watchmen So you get like a Vorschach thing like the Vorschach police or whatever and about that So and then over here we got a story that's like taking imagery and concepts from this, but it has not it's not in the universe of watchmen It's just like things that are inspired by the like themes and motifs in watchmen. I was like okay. That's kind of it looks like Yeah, but you're seeing images right, but then like oh, but no No, it's a future of that book and everything that happened in that world totally and then like That makes more sense that you would do that, but I'm also less interested in that and I that's less Valid yes creative endeavor, right? Yeah, I would be more interested if you're gonna do something really cool and more risky Yeah, where it's like no, we're leaving alone the original work.

This is just like what ifs. Yeah, now we cool You see here's the black mirror black mirror. Oh my god. I don't like that I don't know if I do either, but I was like that's bold.

Oh, yeah, that's like risky and that could be super cool I don't even know what it would necessarily be but like it's a vision where I'm like oh you talk me into that if you're smart Yeah, like well, you know it is it's just like we have to watch my license we use it But like black mirror is what if technology was mad yeah, and like watchmen would be like me But like what if superheroes were real. Yeah, right? And just like a dark interpretation of that. Yeah, but it's just like and it's like I'm using the darkest one Right, and it's not all the same thing.

No, no, that's not part of the same company Right, and that gives you like a sort of freedom to tell some really off the wall stuff. Yes, which there you go Oh, I know what that looks like. Yeah, and it's just using like the word watchmen and the things that you know from it Just kind of like a hook to get you in. Yeah, it's not actually that it's actually its only creative like thing right?

That would be cool. Okay, yeah, I know I watch it I don't know if I'd watch it either, but I would feel a little better about yes because it wouldn't feel like it's taking something that someone else did the brilliant and just continuing it. Right, because you have enough money to pay. Yeah, and because you want money.

I don't know. Taylor Pesser says to be honest, I see John's going fully into movies and TV in the foreseeable future. I think Batman, Earth One, will probably be the last book he publishes. That's big book he publishes.

I disagree. I think that he will still do those things. But also, if and when Batman, Earth One, will come out because Gary Frank needed to draw that too. Like it's taking forever and it will forever.

I think you have the last Jeff Johns, particularly in comics. I think you have the last of me. I'm glad. I like him.

But I think when he's done at DC, he's like, okay, everyone here hates me or they're at least I don't want him to be here anymore. He'll go to Marvel and make somebody there or not. In fact, he has positions of financial success and influence over movies because of his role at DC. Because of his connections to Hollywood.

So it's like he assumes himself the foot to leave. And I think he is a comic book writer. I think he likes telling stories. So I wouldn't expect him to stop.

He can't really stop a writer. Pesser says, is it bad that I want to have a half statue? No. He wants to have a blue naked dude in your house.

Right? You have to explain it. But honestly, even the action figures, the conceit of action figure is in and of itself problematically commercial. As a statue.

As any collectible piece of merchandise. With action figures, it's a toy that is meant to be played with. And that is the joke. But no child is buying the Tuesday clock action figures.

No child should buy the Tuesday clock action figures. Certainly no child should be interested in watchmen until they're above action figure playing with age. Or at least at the upper edge of it. Right.

Or at the very least before they just go like, oh, super hero action. Yeah. So in an ironic sense, I love watchmen action figures. Yeah.

It's like that shouldn't even exist. That one where we find that so repugnant. It'd be so funny to look at him. It'd be great to see him walk by a child's playing pit and then having comedian figures.

Yes. I want to see the commercial for the watchmen action figures. It's just like the cartoon show. Yeah.

Like misinterpreted with their hands and they're holding the thing and they're like, yeah, I want to see that commercial. That's like really funny to me. But that's like a show. Yeah.

Well, in that commercial meant to sell to children and their straight up knot. Yeah. Like those figures are for adult people. Yes.

And so as such, those are just little statues. Yeah. Little statues. Little cheaper statues.

Yeah. So actually it isn't bad you want the statue. Then it isn't bad you want the action figures. No.

I got multiple action figures all over the place. I got the Batman Prettor action figures. Which were very expensive and I want to open them and stage them so they're fighting. But I also want to open them up.

Yeah. Now here's a counterpoint. Another counterpoint. Just another way to look at this.

Yeah. Is it bad that I want like a Hobbes like a plushie? Right? No, it's not.

No, Waterston finds that like a horror guy. But he doesn't want you to have that. But do I respect that he doesn't want to make it? Yes, also.

Right. So you know, even though I want that thing, like I also get why he wouldn't want that made and I understand it and I don't have a problem with that. No, but I'm also not going to stop my friend from making me. Right.