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Alright, let's get on with the show then. Waiting down upon the underworld to smash gangland, scones a friend of the unfortunate enemy of criminal. In mysterious, all powerful characters are problems to the police, but a good state of law. Hello everybody, and welcome to Elseworld's Exchange.
Or this- Oh, oh, oh, we have a name now. This show isn't just random thing with Joel and Sally, as a name now. I've been playing with the idea of calling it just the live show, but like, I feel like that's too generic. We can do better than the live show.
We're too creative, dudes. We racked our brains over names. Joel gave me a great list. Not all of them were taken by other lesser podcasts.
And I was like, how about we just combine them? We'll do what every great sitcom does and just take two ideas that you're gonna do and then just slap them together and try something out with it. So we're trying the Elseworld's Exchange. I like it because it plays with the idea of like, different universes, like the universe of Cape Joel and Comic-Pop coming together.
It's an exchange of ideas and the word exchange also means conversation. Works on a lot of levels. Yes, I like the idea of a show that works on multiple levels, or at least a name that works on multiple levels. So today's topic, if you can call it that, is Web Comics.
I like the idea of us just grabbing a generic one-word topic and then just going off on it, seeing where it leads us. Back up, back when I used to listen to League of Extremely Ordinary Gentlemen, which was one of my favorite podcasts back in the day. That's very much what they did, too. Sadly, all those episodes are gone now to time and the internet.
And I actually tried to hunt some of those down and be like, what was their topic? So I can totally wholesale steal topics. You should just reach out to the guys who did it and be like, hey man, where can I get your shows? Or they've all moved on to other stuff now.
Yeah, but you know they got copies. It's true. You know they got the MP3s. Out there somewhere.
Exactly. But today we're talking about Web Comics that we talked about Star Wars and Sci-Fi, 90s cartoons, video stores, and now we're doing Web Comics. The reason why I thought we talked about Web Comics is because just selfishly I've had some experience with Web Comics and know a lot about it. Joel, however, has had zero experience at least before when we were talking about it.
Not a heck of a lot. Like, I mean, there was like two that I read regularly. And they weren't even the ones that everyone names when you think of that subject. It's true.
And I was like, oh, this is going to be a fantastic topic because it'll be interesting to kind of jump around a bit and maybe, you know, answer some questions about the world itself. Because the thing about it is like Web Comics are a completely separate industry. It's a crazy world that I know a significant portion about because I happen to be huge fans of certain ones. And when you're fans of a podcast, I mean you're fans of like a creator because typically the Web Comic is produced by a cartoonist who like operates the whole damn thing.
If you're not familiar with Web Comic is, oh, but ask your grandfather what's a Sunday paper use? The comic strips. Like if you wondered where that's what really hit me in my research for this because obviously you threw out a bunch of titles for me. And as I sat there reading them like, oh, this is where the comic strips sense of humor and sensibility.
When I remember Garfield, I remember Family Circus. Exactly. And ironically, they both still exist despite the fact that they're like 2000 years old. But the idea, the concept or the disposable media that is comics kind of went to the Web and as most things do, I mean, look at us.
The idea of course being that like most cartoonists were inspired by the comic strips of old. I'm thinking peanuts, Calvin Hobbs, stuff like that. And I know that like for example, one cartoonist Scott Kurtz who does table Titans and PVP, Player vs Player, has been doing this for over 10 years. Oh wow.
Yeah, the dude started out making a Web Comic called PVP for another website. And that was kind of how they started out. Penny Arcade was a very similar deal where like a website like Blues News or, you know, I guess some other website where you get like a bunch of news. I guess the equivalent for comics would be like Comic resources or news games or bleeding cool where there was a Web Comic that, you know, got switched out every day or every week.
And it was meant to draw in readers. The most recent example I can think of is the Emerald City Comic Con's website has its own specialized Web Comic called Tales from the Con which is done by Brad Geiger who does Evil Incorporated and what's his name. I think Chris Giroso does G-Men and does all those wacky little Marvel comics. I've always wanted to go to the Emerald City Comic Con.
It's an amazing show. I hear it is too. I hear that's like the place to go for writers. Like the writers are always really excited to go there.
Oh yeah, apparently there's like crazy writer parties. I'll tell you, I went to the only reason why the only, the closest thing that the Emerald City Comic Con is going to PAX Prime which is in the same convention center which I loved. And if you ever get the opportunity, if you know somebody in the industry in any regard when it comes to comics or video games, try to get, if you know anybody in the industry in any way, try to get an exhibitor pass because you get a totally different unique perspective from Avicon. Because number one, they can't kick out.
The conversation can come and go as you please. Number three, you can get there as early as you like. And number four, you get to kind of, you're treated entirely differently. More differently than if you were like a press agent or like a fan or if you had like a three day pass.
The exhibitor pass is a completely different animal. And it's really, really cool. And actually as such, like our friend hooked us up with some exhibitors passes for PAX Prime. And so we like just, we were like ghosts.
It was amazing. But that convention center is tits. I've seen footage of it, you know, people who film stuff from PAX. I know that's crazy.
It's like, it's multiple levels and each level is like its own convention. It's freaking awesome. But it's not, but it's actually more cohesive than like a bazaar. You know, I'm thinking of that scene in a firefly when they went to that like orbiting the space station.
Love that. Where each section had its own like, you know, tables and stuff. No, it's not that, it's not that shinsie. It's quite, well, it's quite a well oil machine.
But web comics were meant to be kind of like a draw. They were secondary. They were the idea was, you know, they were meant to kind of maintain an interest in the actual content. Yeah.
And it was only after people started looking at the numbers that they went, oh, people are coming here for my comic, not for the news on the website. And so they said, well, I guess I'll break off and then go get my own revenue. See, like, you know, go westward. Westward photos, so to speak.
As golden Demdar cyberhills. Exactly. Because the idea of separating from, you know, the mother of revenue, you know, they paid for the money. You know, they paid them, you know, like, I'll pay you a monthly stipend or whatever to maintain your website, as opposed to, I guess I now have to learn how to run a business.
Like, I don't have to just, like, you, because if you are a cartoonist, if you do writing an art, if you create your own book, or your own strip, you have to not only know how to draw and write and write concisely and on a deadline. But you also have to have to know some semblance of coding. You have to know how to make a website present on a nice looking. You've got to be able to do social media management.
Not all artists can do that. No, they cannot. I mean, this is proved not just in the web comics community. Although there's plenty of examples of people who just cannot handle one or multiple aspects of the business, but it's evident in the comic book industry in its own way where artists and writers are like, I got to use the Twitters now.
Damn it. No. But it's a fascinating business and one that very few people can make into a living. Yeah.
So the ones that we're going to talk about are probably going to be the ones, like, the very, very, very few examples of those that can. Those that do have a living out of it. And I'll be honest, like, there are some people who have been making living, like Kurt said I mentioned before, for the last 10 years, there are some who I'm still scratching my head. I'm still scratching my head as to how they made.
Like, I appreciate, like, why? Like, because there was a boom. Like, it was a quiet one, but in that world was- It did seem like there was a bit there. Yeah.
When everyone was doing a web comic hack, I'm pretty sure Yazzi Crotra, Zero Punctuation, did a whole video on the boom and being like, hey, you know, here's your handy dandy guy to success in the web comic world. Right. Exactly. And I think that bubble kind of burst big time.
I know that I definitely could not resist the siren call of making comics with instant feedback. We made a strip called Horseman back in the day. The idea was it was supposed to be a cartoon show, which I was- We were developing the pitch and while we were doing that, we were also like, I guess we could maintain, like, a following, create, like, an audience for the series that doesn't exist yet. So I teamed up with Machinaro, who wound up doing a strip called sufficiently remarkable, and another strip called Science.
And he drew Horseman for, like, I think, 30 strips. And then after that, my old buddy, Carrie Clemens, took over and she wound up drawing it for the remainder of its run. And then we were like, okay, screw that. Let's get into comic books.
And then, even then, I was like, okay, well, you know what? Like, I've got this book. What should I do with it? So I turned Horseman when it was a comic book into a web comic, which, once again, like, it's funny because web comics are funny in as much as like, you can really trace people's success from when they decided to get in.
Like, Penier KDP hit at the right time. There's another web comic called Control Alt Delete, which, by all rights, should not- should be a hobby for Tim Buckley. But instead is a major source of revenue that has been since 2000. So for 15 years, it's been making this comic.
And, you know, all criticism aside, because there have been a lot of criticism about that creator and about his comic, he managed to create a business out of it. And it's proved to, you know, you never know what's going to hit and what's going to be a big deal. You never know what's going to hit. And I feel like it's simply that he hit the dudes on a couch meet, like, phenomenon, that trope, right when there were people looking for it.
Like, right in 2000, just boom, it hit and people just took off running with it. And it never really, well, it definitely slowed down, but it never really went away. So do you want to give you a list of web comics to check out? Yes.
What did you see and what were some of your standouts or some of your thoughts on each one? Well, definitely, you know, I had said that I hadn't been into, you know, web comics. That's kind of a lie because I had read, you know, some, uh, was it the guy I'm drawn up blank on the name? Penny, okay.
Thank you. I read a little bit because it's kind of hard not to run into Penny Arcade from the game side of the internet. I mean, even like, even if you're a Redditor, occasionally a web comic, like, uh, Saturday morning, breath of cereal, we'll just appear on the front page and all of a sudden, you read web comics, even if you don't necessarily opt to, or you try to, they'll find you. And usually there's some kind of web comic for everybody because there are literally tens of thousands of them.
It's true. And, you know, I mean, it really says something about Penny Arcade. How they've been able to spin that in such success, really just, you know, by latching on to, you know, like, what's big at the moment? It's almost self-parking the way they do it, where it's like, no, oh, hey, people are going off about Destiny this week, and you know, some like it's some, hey, let's do a three-strip thing on Destiny.
Right. It's actually funny. It reminds me not unlike the YouTube scene where like, there are certain trends, there are certain, like, beats you can hit and, you know, there are flashes in the pan and there are some that have staying power. And what the, the tools are all there.
That's the most, that's the most fascinating thing. Like, the tools for making web comics are all at your disposal, such that you can download a template, a WordPress template, a word press template, a comic press, and literally, if you've been drawing them, you can just photocopy them or scan them in and then upload like, comic press to your WordPress page, and within like an hour, you will have a website with Google AdSense, with banner ads, like, you can just go onto Project Wonderful, which is a banner ad generating website, and you're just ready to go. And you're just literally producing, like you've been doing it forever. But I think that- That's a really good info you gave out right there.
Yeah, I know. If you're interested in making web comics, join the tens of thousands of people who are doing it. But the funny thing is, when it comes to Penny Arcade, the reason why we've heard of it, or the reason why we still read it, or the reason why we still hear about it, is because those guys were smart enough to not just make a quality product, which is really just in the eye of the boulder, you know, because people don't necessarily, you know, whether it's good or not, it's subjective. And the guys surrounded themselves with really, really smart people, and built a business that was kind of hinged on the success of the comic, but now has outgrown the comic to the point where Penny Arcade is a charitable organization, Penny Arcade is a number one video game convention, Penny Arcade is- They have a video game based on the characters they made in the comic?
They didn't sell very well, but- That was a downloadable thing, but yeah. But they make games, they talk about games, they create charitable foundations for them, they have conventions surrounding them, they've literally turned Penny Arcade from a web comic to a comic about two guys. I'm a couch, into a brand. Yeah, totally.
I mean, I could see the future of Penny Arcade becoming awards or, you know, some other beasts. I can't even- That's the thing about what they're doing and where they're going. I can't necessarily predict where they're going to go, what they're going to do. It's funny, I'm looking at their site right now.
What's their strip today about? And today it's them talking about Minecraft Story Mode, because that's a thing. They just came out today, so they already have like three pages ready to go with it. Right, and the fact is, if you've ever seen- They have a reality show.
They created a reality show about making web comics. They have a reality show about themselves making the comic. I've had a watch of those. It's pretty cool.
Anytime you get to see the inside workings of the entertainment industry, I am fascinated. I think, honestly, based on just the strength of what we talk about, how we can pick any topic, I would love for us to talk about comedians sometime. Oh, that's on my list, because I have a lot of great comedic influences I would love to talk about. So do I, and while I have no aspirations to become a comedian, that universe is so fascinating to me.
I respect what they do. I respect the history. I respect the shenanigans and the amount of self-sacrifice and pathos and insanity that they put up with slash deal with that on a daily basis. What's that thing they say?
Comedy is tragedy plus time. Some of the funniest comedians are super tragic people. Oh my god, yeah, it's very self-destructive people. With web comics, it really helps if you're not self-destructive because you'll destroy your craft.
And Penny Arcade has had some trouble too in the past. They've had some controversies and stuff lobbed at them. Oh yeah, I think the dick wolves was the last time I heard them. That was the last one.
That was why I was referring to it. It was funny. I don't want to necessarily harp on that too much, but I remember when that was a thing. I think they actually did.
Yeah, I remember that comic coming out. I remember them writing about it. I remember them talking about it. I remember being like, so?
I remember in the fall out the dude. I came out for it was Gabe or Tycho. It was Gabe. Mike Roolek.
He's always the one who's like, okay, let me tell you what I think. Tycho slash Jerry Holkins is very reserved and quiet and usually is not the one to put his buttons out. Yeah. So yeah, you check out Penny Arcade, which is a Titan and it's become...
For good reason. Yeah. With good reason. Whether you like the strip or not, whether it's gotten better or gotten worse, like they've created something.
It's funny to think it's been going on for so long now that there's generations of people who can be like, man, I remember it when it was good. Yeah. Oh, there's three different levels of Penny Arcade comics that you can be like, I liked it when it was this. I like it when it was this or I like it now.
So yeah, it's kind of fascinating that way. It's kind of like the Simpsons effect, isn't it, where it's like, man, I stopped watching after Blang. Yep, exactly. And there's many different variations on that, definitely.
There's a topic right there. Just talk about the Simpsons. I mean, I could do that. I have liked, here's the thing, like really quick, I have liked the Simpsons less...
There are so many seasons. I think there's 25, 26 seasons. Yeah, something like that. I have not liked the Simpsons for so long.
Like, I like so few of the seasons that, like statistically, I'm not a Simpsons fan. Really? Like, I love seasons one through eight and I like season nine. The must watch seasons one.
Actually, it's more like season two through eight. Season one is fine and it's great and if you remember it or if you care about history, like, that season's integral, it's a bedrock for what the Simpsons is. It's a bedrock for what the Simpsons will actually come. But my golden years are seasons two through eight and there are 25 seasons.
I can't even say that the Simpsons suck because the fact is, I'm not even relevant. Like, the seasons that I like are while they informed and built everything the Simpsons became after that. There's like, I can't even say that I used to be a fan because, statistically speaking, I only liked what? It's funny the thing, and obviously we should say this for a Simpsons show because it sounds like we could totally do a thing on now.
Obviously, I'm a little younger than you, which means I stuck with the show longer. To me, it's like all the Simpsons and my breakup with the Simpsons was much more casual than anything else. I assume you just lost interest after a while. It went from must watch Sunday programming to catch that later.
I'll catch that much later. I'll catch it on DVD. I'm good. It wasn't a horribly destructive screw this, everything like it was with Family Guy.
I can actually pinpoint the second I was done with Family Guy. I'm exactly the same way. We could actually do three different episodes. We could do the Simpsons.
We could do the Family Guy. We could do the South Park. I haven't ever quit South Park, but I definitely, when they're like, the new season is playing now, I'm like, oh, really? Still?
Good. I'm glad. I like that show and I'm sure it doesn't cost much to make. I think that it's a better satire machine than SNL has ever been.
Oh, there's a show that I still watch SNL. I probably the only 20-something you'll meet who keeps up with SNL. No questions. But anyway, we talked about it in Arcade.
We could probably bring it back to it, but what's the next one? Well, I guess another one there that you gave to me to Renai Shrek that was PvP. And again, I thought that was fun. I thought it was charming.
The Strip Eyread, which again, this is kind of like a more long-form strip kind of story. It was the dude going to his high school reunion and confronting an old bully there, but the bully actually turned out to be a nice guy later on in life. It's funny because PvP went from a gaga day. That's what they used to call it, a gaga day, a strip where it's like, oh, funky winker bin.
Oh, no, I'm sorry. P up, sleeping on the job, but PvP eventually turned into an actual, like, office comedy, like, news, and the influencers are like news radio, night court, or something. That's the kind of motif that I think Curse was going for with that strip. It's definitely stepped away from there.
That story about Francis and the bully was like the most, like, that's like the first time that they've had a story arc in a long time. No, it hasn't. Yeah, he's, Curse is really kind of stepped away from PvP in a big, bad way. But when it was started, it was originally just like a joke.
You know, there was the guys on the couch who played video games. There's the nerdy girl who exists so that she can shake her head and go, oh, boys. And then actually play video games. She could be like a wish film and character.
But what's cool is that Kurtz, as he grew and matured, his characters did as well, and he realized shortly thereafter, he's like, oh my God, I created a wish film and character. Like, this isn't a woman. This is just an archetype for me to like- Which is rare for creators to come around to. Oh, yeah.
Oh, no, and he, that's kind of a fascinating phenomenon about web comics that you don't get to see necessarily in most other media, which is, except I think you two. And I think that's why I'm so gravitated towards it. And why it was such an easy transition to go from doing web comics to doing YouTube videos, which is you're taking your art and you're making it quickly, you're putting on display, and you're going to media feedback. And you're constantly looking to reinvent yourself so that you have to.
And like, PvP was the same way. Like, Kurtz needed to reinvent PvP every so often, lest it gets stale. We as YouTubers, like we have to keep, you know, coming up with something new, you know, maintaining what makes it work, but also reinventing the wheel so that we don't become stale. And to bring it back to like traditional comic strips, which this all kind of comes from, that's like what Dunesbury did, didn't it?
Like the Dunesbury you read in the 70s is completely different from the Dunesbury you would read today if it's still going. I think it's still going. I think it's still going. Yeah, I think it is still going.
Cause I know that like every so often they'll write it, they'll do it right up about Dunesbury and how it's, and it's cultural significance. Yeah. But yeah, but PvP is a much different animal from what it was. And I honestly, like for me, like I was a huge fan, I feel like it's definitely fallen way to something else.
There's at least one joke you really like that BB8 joke. Yes, that was pretty great. He also does a circle table tightens, which I didn't like mention, but clearly he has a much higher passion for it and wants to make that more. So you've got that strip as well, which I guess is if you're looking for like the heart and soul of Kurtz and him infusing himself into a strip table tightens the way to go.
PvP is more like it went from the favorite child to like, well, it's like having a kid who is like having an only child and that we're having older child and that older child had all this promise and you put all this effort and money into them. And they accidentally got into like a car accident. You're like, well, you know what? Sometimes that happens.
And then like they keep doing it. And you're like, I've got to put my efforts into something else. But yeah, PvP was a fun comic and I think that there's always potential. That's the thing that like, you know, disposable media is the potential for it to be reinvented or for it to be something else.
This is actually it's strict web comics that I learned that I kind of learned about commenting and fans and viewers because fandom is interesting. It is. Because you'll get like people who are some of your biggest fans hate you. It's true.
It's true. But fan tagness. I like to call that. I love that term, the fan tag.
That's a Joel trademark. Do not steal. Yeah, I love it. Yeah.
It's on the show. It's canon now. You can timestamp it. This term exists.
When they make the else world exchange wiki, that's got to be on there. Let me tell you, like we have I have a perfect and real time example of fan of fan tag. And it's the when we had some technical difficulties trying to get the show up, but right before we went down, we had two thumbs down. We were for five minutes with two thumbs down, which means that's not like people were like, Oh, web comics.
I think I'll check this out. Oh, it's not up yet. Thumbs down. No, I didn't mean like I don't like what they're talking about.
I disagree. Thumbs down. That was Oh, Sal's live thumbs down. That they cared enough to follow you to keep their eyes peeled.
They're subscribed. They watch everything we do. They're they're they're they're on our Twitter's. They check our Facebook's just to get ammunition for every little thing you say.
They can throw it in your face. And it's like, guess what, man? You're my biggest fan. Yeah, you hang on my every word and you hate it.
You go over with a fine tune comb and listen and realize that. Yeah, I mean, like if that kind of dedication didn't also make people murder people and bury them under your boards, I would actually thank them for being such great and amazing fans. Obsession is a funny thing, you know, it is really is. By the way, Jack Dawisky says make this a weekly thing.
We are trying to make this weekly thing. We've named the damn thing now. It's got it. It's got a name now.
It's happening. It's a real and by the way, if you're just joining us, welcome to the else world exchange. If you're watching this after the fact, I'm sorry that you already heard this part, but welcome to the else world exchange the show where Joel and I chat about pop culture topics, grab a topic and then just kind of dissect it from there. That's right, Josh Harley.
They hate us because they hate us. Nice. Nice. The interview reference.
The only thing that will remain prominent about that movie. Oh my god. It's funny. Kurt's actually not only does he have a very unique perspective about the comic book industry.
He also used to be the fourth member of a podcast called Comic Dorks, which was a really cool show, but then they stopped doing it. And now it's nothing like it was part of the FrogPads Network. I've actually been trying to back when we first started as a YouTube channel. I'm like, oh, we got to get these guys because these guys know shit and they love talking about it.
Nope. So fine. But Kurt's has a very unique perspective about web comics, about comic books, about the industry, about fandom. And one of his perspectives is capitalizing off what you said about like they hate us because they ain't us, which is like there are a lot of fans of web comics and web comic creators.
And I think this is, can I also be translated to YouTube as well, where they're fans because they want to be you. And not like they want to be like me. They want what you have. And they want to wear your skin.
And they think that by being a fan of yours, by being your friend, that they'll be able to ape off what you did and then make it themselves or use you to leapfrog to the next step of what they want. Like it's like a half ass networking scheme. It's a disingenuous networking scheme. Very.
I like all those good-hearted networking schemes, which I just find. I like network. Listen, if they want to, like for example, when we went to New York Comic-Con and Valiant sent, took us to a whiskey bar and we like ate a thousand appetizers, I would, no, that's proper networking. I like that networking.
By the way, we are going to do something with Valiant in the future, and it's not going to be like the Valiant Hour. Like, we're just going to do another, but we have a special organic episode ready to go. That's like, we're going to shoot very soon. That will be a really great topic.
Basically, I'm going to bring that comic line and it's going to be about their company. That show where your war suits. I like that show. And we shot an episode where we did the killing joke, and then I deleted it.
Too much? It was too much. We were talking about violence against women, and I'm like, this show can never be. Yeah, not on the internet.
I've actually done that myself. I actually had a whole video planned for Kate Joel, where I was going to talk about superheroes and who they would support politically. And I thought, well, obviously, Green Arrow is a liberal. That's well documented.
And Tony Stark, he's a conservative. That's well. A dog. Well, Batman can go either way depending on who's writing.
I'm like, no, this can never go out either. No, because your fans will be like, I disagree. They'll flip a crap, man. Like, no, trust me.
Yeah. And the last thing I need is for our channel to blow up because... Exactly. Because people, because people, like, Marguerite Bennett is mad at me for saying that like, Barbara Gordon is a well-rounded character and defined by Tragedy.
Like, I can't let that happen. And I didn't want to do a political video and be on like the front page of Breitbart News or something like that. No, not exactly. So, alright, PVP, that's a dead topic.
Next comic that you checked out. Well, one that I actually do keep up with and one that I figured I would mention is something I know you're a fan of too. You interviewed the creator and indeed I did as well, and that's Yale Stewards JL8. That's right.
Yes. I was told about JL8 a couple of years ago in a shoe store, and they were like, you'd like this. Darkseid's a gym teacher. And that's very real on in it.
Yeah, and that was like, he told me about it like when there were like four strips. And it was a fun strip. If you're not familiar with JL8, it's a cute strip about the DC universe if they were eight-year-olds. It was originally called Little League.
But Little Marvel, yeah. No, no, it was the baseball organization that threatened legal action, and so they changed it to JL8, which I think is a good title. I think it works out. It wasn't too on the nose.
It's got a nice ring to it. Yeah, exactly. And he draws it. He writes it.
And man, yeah, like JL8 is the kind of strip where that strip always blew my mind. Oh, wait, it's beautifully drawn. It's really thoughtfully written. But the most mind-boggling part of JL8 is why didn't DC buy it?
I know. Well, it's funny because like this dude, like I think we can talk freely because we both know he's still in my Skype contact. The fact that you know, it's like JL8 is so cool. And clearly DC thinks it's cool because he is just kind of skirting.
Because they let him do it. Where it's like you don't own any of these characters you've made into eight-year-olds and put into charming peanut-style situations. I mean, like there are some versions of those characters that I prefer. Like the Yale version of.
And well, Jesus, DC, why don't you just take that strip and then put it at DC online. Like go to the main website and it goes to the top of the page. And just bring in revenue and split it with your artist. I don't understand that.
It's weird. It's definitely weird. Or hell, how about this? Make it a digital exclusive comic that people can buy.
I mean, like clearly the industry is aware of it. He's friends of people in the industry. And he did a Nova story about Santa's Day. He did.
I remember that when that was a big break room. I remember that. And we did an interview with him on our old Dead Show big shots where we talked about that. And we were like, so you know, you know, I guess this is going to be the beginning.
And he was like, no, like, no, it's not. Like we did the one thing and it might be because one of the people who's involved is a friend of mine. But that's it. Yeah, I was always surprised.
You know, Stuart didn't blow up huge. I kept thinking he was going to be the next big thing for a long time. I guess he's just happy and content doing what he's doing. Good on him for that.
Well, he did. He did run into a pack of Controversies. Yeah, and there was that. And there was that thing also.
I mean, like it could be that he was getting ready. And there was a major impediment. Yeah, which we don't need to get into since we're all the guy. No, I can Google that if they want.
You know, but don't because if you like J. Light, just enjoy it. Yeah, yeah. And again, you like some of the cool stuff about J.
Light, you were saying you actually like some of the characters better in that. There's a whole great little mini arc in there about Batman being like, oh, I need to be taken more seriously by the kids in my class. So I'm going to change my cost of any changes into the new 52 cost. And he's like, hey, they all get Grim and Gritty.
Like they all get new 52. That's an amazing story. It is. It's so it's so like just at the time I was reading it was like at the height of my reading the new 52.
It was great. And the best joke is the flash of comes like, hey, guys, can I be Grim and Gritty too? Oh, Alfred didn't make you a costume. That's why I just took my old costume and drew thunderbolts on it.
That's why. Because that's all flashes. 52 costumes. His old costume with more crap on it.
Yeah. And the fact is like, that's a strip that DC would never have signed off. No, not a game. It was just a damning indictment of the decision to make those switches, which I completely agree with.
By the way, that was I was on board for Yale's commentary. It's funny. Actually, it reminds me of the most recent issue of Superman. Lois and Clark that just came out.
I didn't read that today. Oh, it's good. That was telling me about it. That makes me scared and upset because if anybody remembers Infinite Crisis, which is about Superman from the last universe and how the world is dark and gritty.
Trying to punish the world for how dark and gritty it's becoming. Or how he's like, he's like, I don't approve of this world because it's too dark and edgy. And then we have that Superman in this universe. And he's like, this is a dark and edgy universe.
I'm like, no, that Superman like dealt with the kill by doomsday and watch the woman snap out Lord's neck. Like this Superman's been through enough. Greedy shit. The new 52 might be like, you know, dark, but it's not darker than the crap that went on at the end of the post crisis.
DCU. Right. So please don't take us in that direction. Another great bit that JLA had is there's a there's a moment there which felt very much like an episode of Arthur where Superman and Batman go to the bookstore because you know, Batman wants to write a book and who's the clerk at the store working there.
It's Neil Gaiman. You know, it's funny about that. Yale told us the story. He actually heard from Neil Gaiman.
Oh, wow. After that. And the game and liked it. And he's like, I can't believe I'm going to read my comic.
I'm like, yeah, me either, dude. That's got to be a wonderful touching moment. Again, I think he kept up with it. I don't think he used any more real people in that.
I think I think Gaiman was the only one. He didn't want it. He mentioned like, he didn't want it to be like that jarring. Like he didn't want to start throwing in like all these references on his original.
Like all these real people. He was actually on the fence about even including Gaiman at all. And then he was like, no, you know what we'll do it. Why not?
And Batman meets the ghost of Jack Kirby. Yeah, exactly. We're Bill Finger. Like I created you and never got credit.
Hey, Batman. I'm your daddy. No, not your dead one. Yeah.
I'm also dead, but not the. Yeah. I had penniless. I'm like your dad.
And then have Siegel and Shuster show up and be like, you know, they had to give us a pittance right for what we did when the Christopher Reeves movie came up. They didn't want us to die. Right. And Mar the whole thing.
How does that make you feel a little Superman? It just made me feel good. Ghost of Dead comic. Yeah.
I'm eight. What else we got? What else on the list here? Oh, just one last thing about JLA.
Yeah, let's right. Because I also thought it was hilarious. The parents get to become characters in the book. Yeah.
That's so awesome. Like Montauk and our characters. And they watch the Lawrence Welk show because of course they do. Right.
You even get a Power Girls mom who's great. Pardon me. Yeah. Yeah.
Live shows. But yeah, like I like that I like the inclusion of the parents. I like the everyone's a real character and everyone's real proportions. Everyone's idealized or sexy or anything like that.
It's really just respectfully done. It's just clearly, you know what? There's so much care and effort. It's obviously not done by a professional.
Yeah. That's a joke too. They have with Power Girl. Don't think when he does a bit on the move window.
And they're just like, what are you doing? Yeah. Yeah. That's funny.
JLA is great. Everyone. If you haven't read JLA, you should all totally go read JLA. Go to JLA.tumbler.com.
I think. If not, by the way, check in the description box down below. We'll send a link to every comic we referenced in this episode. From a totally sweet and wholesome comic to another comic I regularly read.
And it's going to be really weird. But it's a web comic called Ojoy Sex Toy. Ah, yes. That's Erica Moen.
Erica Moen. Yep. Beautiful artist and definitely beloved by Comic Graders. Because if you see who follows her on Twitter, it's a bunch of big name comic people who like her work.
Oh, yeah. And she's one of those people who was an already established web comic creator or had a career. And also wound up being a contestant on Penny Arcade's reality show. Oh, wow.
Which everyone's kind of like, what the hell? Like, all these other people are starving and you've got Erica Moen with the crap. But Moen kind of was like, I'm going to forgo any fee that any like prize money I get. Oh, that's nice.
It was cool. She's a classy person. I met her. She sure is.
Oh, lucky you. She's super cool, super nice. I never, I didn't start my sketchbook until after that, of course. But yeah, Ojoy Sex Toy.
Tell the good people that that's all about. Well, I sure will everyone. And you can tell that we can do this on the comic pop channel because we could never do this on any of the other channel. Well, I know we can totally do it on comic book as we do shit like the whole time.
But yeah, Ojoy Sex Toy, like it literally started as like, Hey, let's actually review real life on his real world sex toys. And we'll have like comics to go with them like funny little imagery and everything. Yeah. And from that, it's expanded, you know, because it's Erica Moen and I guess her husband partner, whatever he's part of it too.
Yes, she's a, yeah, her husband. Yeah, he's her husband because she was, the idea was Erica Moen had always identified as being gay. And then she met this guy and fell in love with him. And it completely transformed her perceptions of sexuality.
Yeah. And she actually wound up like doing a web comic before that before Ojoy Sex Toy that chronicled her kind of transformation. Oh, I got to track that down because it's called Dar, the AR exclamation point. And it's, it goes, I think it's about six year window of her just being an artist and going through hell and not like just the hell that is life, the hell that is your 20s and her like meeting this dude and falling in love with him and how that radically annihilated her life like just completely her perceptions, her friendships, her relationships, everything.
Level Fucking up kids. Just so you know, it's actually, you know, it's funny. It kind of reminded me of a more tastefully done chasing Amy. I think it's a fantastic movie that gets beautifully put together, but they never address because Smith doesn't really, at that point, understand.
Like they don't address the whole like she thought she was gay and then falls in love with a man and it's like, no, like don't get caught up on labels and sexuality. Which is all very much topics that Ojoy deals with where you know, it's very much about, you know, you know, gender and life and roles and all this other stuff. And they get great guests, artists who do little one shots and everything. And it's just like, man, this is, this is really cool, really progressive stuff.
And I dig it. That's the thing. It's very liberal. If you're not like sexually liberated or liberal, like this is not going to be a comic that you're going to want to read.
And it's not safe for work is the other thing. It is a very honest thing for work. But I will say, you know what the fact is, like, even if it's not necessarily for you, I challenge you to read it or at least read Darr because one should always be exposed to essential questions. This is the problem that I always encounter with people that like I've known through walks of life where like I'm like, man, there they go.
And were it not for the fact that they're afraid of life or they're afraid to ask themselves really simple, but really penetrative questions. Just literally just like, I don't want to think about it or ask myself that question. And so I'm just going to bury my head. Because I might not like the answer.
Or I might or I'm afraid of what the answer might mean for my convenience. And, you know, and this is, while this isn't like, when I'm talking about transformative journeys, Ojoy's ex-toy is just like, think about it for a second. And if nothing else, you get to see some boobs. And it's funny too.
Like it's a very, and it's a very funny strip too. Like there's like, laugh out loud stuff that they did a whole little strip on them going to a swinging part because it's more than just toys. They like, you know, like they interview an exotic dancer and she talks about like all the athleticism that goes into that, you know. The swinging part he wanted made me laugh to because like, well, we had the worst time ever even just getting there.
And it's like, this isn't sexy. This isn't enjoyable at all. That's the thing. Like, it kind of takes the mystique out of the big umbrella of sex and turns it into something real.
Something more frank, which I think is amazing. And also turns it into art, which is the best kind of anything in life. And also something goofy and something fun to it's a very colorful comic. It's got like a lot going on.
Yeah, now, Erica Moen's a smart person and she produces really like penetratingly insightful art. So I'm glad we brought that up because it's something that's like totally not in the wheelhouse of everything we're talking about. Hey, games, comedy, superheroes, but no seriously transformative questions. Yeah, about sexuality.
Which again goes to show. Like there's a comic that probably would never be printed, but it's something that can find an audience as a web comic. Yeah. And really thrive as a web comic.
That's the thing about a lot of independent work is that there are some comics that no publisher will take a chance on you. And I have been to enough conventions and been on the internet, like with respect to comics long enough to understand that there are a thousand independent comic book publishing houses that make one book. I needed to make my book and I didn't have any other avenues so I made my own publishing company. And our friend, Comic Uno went through something like that just recently when she put out her book like Father Like Daughter that she's going through right now.
Yeah, which I believe she's doing Kickstarter for the next issue. She is definitely check that out to tell her, uh, Sal and Joel sent you. Yeah, exactly. But yeah, we even did ourselves with a back when we were called Little House Comics.
Now, when we put our books, it's called Comic Pop Studios, but web comics are a way for you to literally just try art and tell your story with literal no impediment. And the only obstacles are your own. Like they're they're they might be financially might be artistic. They might be, you know, criticism.
But the fact is there's nothing to stop you from making art and then putting it out there. It is like for me web comics are special because they represent the best qualities of what the internet should be, which is making anything or something that is your unique voice. Expressing creativity as something personal. And just being like, there it is.
And it's up for grabs, not showing that any throat. I'm not like forcing you to read it. And there's no way for me to do that because the internet is just a place for these people who are like, like, you just click it off and it goes away. But if you, you know, if you're looking for something or if you stumble upon it, you might just find something, you know, special.
And that's that's the magic of the internet and the magic web comics for me. It really is. What else we got? What else we talk about?
I don't know. What are some other books that you love about? Just another comic that I recall called, um, whoops, called a questionable content, which is a comic strip that my, an old friend of mine used to read that I loathed. I hated it so much because it was poorly drawn in my perspective.
It was poorly drawn. It was full of Mary Sue's and it's. Explain what a Mary Sue is. You're going to let her know it.
Okay. Just say. There we go. And there we go.
Mary Sue is a character who has no, uh, no faults. No faults. They just, they have cheat codes on. They are perfect.
They are Teflon and more often than not, they are writer insert characters. I think the term comes from the fan fiction community, doesn't it? I mean, like the fact is, uh, and there's, they don't have to necessarily be the prettiest or the smartest, but everyone has to care about them and they have to win all the time. They are, they are the poo-chies.
They are when this character is not around. We need to be asking where's Poo-chi. Yeah. They're the bellows of the, of the world.
A perfect example of a Mary Sue character. Now this isn't just women characters too. The, the male version is a Gary Stu, which I like that. Yeah, I like that too.
If you ever want to know a perfect textbook example using a Star Wars metaphor, read the book Eye Jedi. It is a fan fiction book about a character who is a great pilot because Han Solo says he is. He's a great Jedi because Luke Skywalker says he is. And he beats the bad guy and finds that he's more sensitive and like he can do everything.
And people were like, this is fucking amazing. It's like, no. If you want to be that guy, then sure. But that's it.
But yeah, a questionable content was a strip where my buddy read the crap out of it. And I was always like, what is this comic? And I read it, like just to understand my friend a little bit, I read it from beginning to end. And it didn't end.
It's still going on. But it is, it is a comic about hipster douchebags in the northeast corner of the United States. Yeah, right now. Yeah, there's also robots.
Okay. Okay. When web comics came on the scene and became like, in Vogue, when people were like, I could do that, there's like almost a formula that you could follow. If you want to make a truly depressingly obvious web comic.
And the formula is such that you have a couple of guys, a couch, a girl, and a quirky character you can turn into a toy sticker, like, or any. Or a catchphrase machine. And they also have to have some stupid catchphrase or, you know, like, hazanaka. You know, like, they have to say something that you can put on a t-shirt.
What, what, what, what, what, which I think is a beautiful catchphrase for Rick and Morty because it's so making fun of ridiculous catchphrase. And it means that what it actually means is also great because then it undercuts what, you know, the jubilants are saying it. In bird language, what would double up means someone who is hurting on the inside? I am hurting.
Please help me. In bird culture. Yeah. It is random debris.