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They had the tall boys of Coke on sale today and I gotta get me one of them. Lord Almighty. I'm extra, extra Coke. But yeah, so today our topic is, what's Marvel's plan, Post Secret Empire?
They've gotta have some kind of strategy or not. So because I did a little bit of research beforehand, research being typing into Google. And also just paying attention, keeping my ear to the ground and listening for the rumblings happening in the comic industry. But it's interesting, we had a couple of topic ideas that were ready to go, but I really wanted to cover this because we read Secret Empire number 4.
No spoilers for the issue, but it seems to be there's a metatextual conversation that Hank Pam has with his former and fellow comrades. And it seems like the kind of conversation that is very self-referential and very like, you know, I on the past and another on the future, like let's kind of pay homage to what came before and refer to all the mistakes and highs and lows that took place back then. And maybe hope for the future. And that for me was like a shining moment from the book where I'm like, oh, like Nick Spencer doesn't have to just talk about Trump.
We can also refer to the heyday of Marvel and hopefully the future of Marvel as well. That's why we chose the Marvel generations images kind of the cover for this issue or this episode. Because like they're thinking, you know, because generations and legends, not legends legacy, legacy. I don't think either one of those is like a status quo or a DC rebirth-esque like publishing title.
No, they seem to kind of be like, hey, we got you back, right? You want to read this if we scared you away? Except I don't know anything about it. And I don't and it has nothing to do with the future.
It has everything to do with either like pairing the replacement characters with their counterparts, most of whom have already been paired together beforehand. It's true. That's the interesting thing. It's not like we're seeing a lot of this for the first time.
Thor and Thor teaming up currently in the pages of their book Wolverine and old man are Wolverine and Wolverine. Yeah, Wolverine. And there's three Wolverines now. Exactly.
But like we've seen Laura and Logan team up. We've seen Miles and Peter team up. We've seen Thor and Odinson team up. Seen a ton of Miss Marvel and Captain Marvel and it's funny.
Captain Marvel is going to be in too because she's teaming up with Marva hell and she's teaming up with Kamala. And we've seen Amadeus show and Bruce Banner team up. Like what is it? Oh, no, but they're old though.
Like it's the old versions of the movie. Did you notice who doesn't get a legacy thing? No, but no, no. Yeah, no.
Yeah. That would make sense. Yeah, especially like pick up really like embarrassing time in Hawkeye's history with the skirt or maybe when he was Goliath. No, no Hawkeye whatsoever.
Also. Yeah, like you said, Nova, but we saw Nova. We know nobody brought the Nova one. Nobody's buying that.
Man, I hope if nothing else moving forward from Marvel, I hope they learned a lesson from that. I hope that rings in their head. It's like, look, you had a good thing going with Sam, but you listen to the people who yelled the loudest about Richard Ryder and then you had to cancel the book. Yeah, I mean, I don't know of Richard Ryder tank the book.
I don't think that the scores of Sam Alexander fans were like, what's happening? Old Nova, no, no, and they all drop the book. I think it was more like the trajectory of Nova. He went up.
But you know, everything that goes up must come down and eventually that arc just kind of started coming up. It's true. But I think it was like one of those things where it's like you had a good thing with Sam. The Sam fans were happy into a whole generation.
He was the only Nova. Then you confused it and overcomplicated things by bringing Richard Ryder back. Yeah. I'm one of those people who likes Richard Ryder and is happy to see him come back.
But yeah, it's weird. We're not getting that book. We're at least they're like, you got the book. We're we're we're we're gonna gunshot about releasing Nova books anyway.
It's true. Like, but when I see like the original Captain Marbella, I'm like, you've got a good thing going with your two marbles right now. Don't muddy the water. You don't confuse people with Marvell right now.
But Marvell's been gone for like how many years now? Yeah. Well, he's always been dead. You know, he's been dead since Starlin wrote the book.
And I remember in Civil War, they pretended they were bringing back. But it was really a sleep rate and scroll. Yeah. But yeah, it's funny because I was thinking about how, you know, that's kind of window dressing.
You know, everybody was talking to anybody who has a strong opinion and hates me wants to remind me that like I'm a I'm a hater and that either I'm a Marvel fanboy, I'm a DC fanboy or I'm a hater. And the fact is, you know, I think that the reason why things get confused is because I don't, I pay attention to not just the story, but also the like press around it and what's happening with it. And it just kind of makes me think like, you know, I'm just because they're releasing X-Men Blue and X-Men Gold. Doesn't mean that they're fixing the problem with the X-Men.
No, they're really not. In fact, that bothers me too. It's like, I really hope you don't do with the rest of the Marvel books. What you're doing with X-Men, you put a new coat of paint on them.
You're calling back to old stories, but what was broken is still broken. Exactly. And it's the same thing where it's like, there's rumors that they're going to bring in the fantastic Ford, they're going to bring them back. But I don't know if I want them to come back in this weird editorial climate marvel where nothing has changed, nothing has been fixed, and nobody is like working towards a brighter future.
They're all kind of like, gun shy and scared and timid and you know, they're making their books, but they're also not making any, they're making sweeping changes to things that people are kind of like, oh, well, yeah, like the world's already destroyed and they're going to set on fire fine. Everyone's dead anyway. Exactly. It's hard to care about anything when everything's being destroyed every other week.
Again, I agree with what you're saying about the Fantastic Four. I don't want to see a neutered kneecapped Fantastic Four come back and be treated like the Axomarts. It's like, yeah, they have a book, but like they're not going to actually affect anything anymore. They're going to exist in their own bubble.
That's right. And that's the concern is that like the things that made the Fantastic Four go away in the first place are still there. So at anyone's at the changing of the winds, the Fantastic Four could be ruined again or they could just randomly be swept right back off the table. And so that's why I'm kind of like so frustrated.
I'm so I'm so slow to trust the Marvel changes is because I'm always like, yeah, but you didn't do anything behind the scenes that warrants the change or that implies it's going to be any more different. It'd be like, you know how the image creators are very like 10 years or so get together and like, we're going to bring some image stuff back together. Yeah, unless like you've consistently released some books that you can prove you can actually work on the deadline again, yeah, call me when it's in a trade, you know, because I'm not going to I'm not buying what you're selling no more. That's cute.
Yeah. Now that now with that said, this is supposed to be a hopeful show because what I was thinking was, where does it go from here? Where is Marvel going to go? Because DC is in a weird place right now that is kind of fascinating with respect to those where I just read Dark Days, the Forge.
Same here. It is in every which way a crisis. It is. And when I'm reading, I'm like, this is epic.
This could be a crisis. Not every interview with Scott Snyder. And they're like, it's basically a crisis, but without any continuity changes. And I'm like, it's okay if you can call it a crisis.
Like you can call it a crisis without worrying about continuity. The word crisis, isn't it? They did. And I'm like, okay.
But you've got a crisis in dark for or in dark days. You've got the craziness going on with doomsday clock, you got DC rebirth and the whole mystery going on with that. There's so many huge things happening at DC. And yet no one is complaining that these huge things are intrusive or frustrating or messing things up.
Because they're not, they're all moving in the right direction. It's like, you know, well, does this? The events of the Forge, you know, affect the button in the whatnot really. They're all just going to happen at the same time.
Yeah. So bringing it back to Marvel, it's like, well, what's Marvel going to do? Because Marvel kind of focuses more on like, they're one big event. And then everyone else is either allowed to participate or if their creator has enough clout, they don't have to participate.
Yeah. That's it. And that I think is really unfair and that's something they should work or do. Everybody should be forced to play by the same rules.
You shouldn't get to show favorites. And yes, I even say that to people I like, like Jason Eric, you know, he should have to play with the other kids, really. Yeah. I'm kind of hopeful in a weird way or in a naive, you know, battered person kind of way.
I'm like, I'm like, Secret Empire could change a lot of complaints people have about the Marvel universe right now. But only cosmetically, that's why I'm only tepidly excited about the future. But it makes me wonder what's going to happen. What are they going to do?
And so one of the things I'm going to throw out there is that they're going to make, they're going to reestablish some old favorites, some old staples of Marvel, some things that used to be consistent and things that you were like, this is, you know, the sun's going to rise in the east and set in the west. And this is going to happen. And you know, and the Punisher is always a vigilante. Like for me, that's one big thing.
Punisher is going to go back to being public enemy number one, especially after backing the regime and also being, you know, like killing for for for cap. That's going to be really interesting. And I think they're also going to roll back Deadpool and make him a lot less front and center in terms of like being almost like a superhero. He's also not unescapable too, is he's like in everything.
Well, he isn't everything. But the fact that we've got Deadpool working for cap is actually a great narrative device that allows Deadpool to become way more cynical and way more jaded and way more angry and way more resentful and he'll be hated in fear too. And more more antihero slash evil. And so I think that that's going to be a way for them to kind of retroactively make Deadpool back into an antihero, but more like an anti like a chaotic neutral.
They have softened him incredibly in the dug air, which I would actually like, you know, we got to see him become an Avenger. We got to see him have like a family and a surrogate family, but you're right. And so I think in comics, it's circular and eventually he needs to break like antihero again. Yeah, but I think that while the creators of Deadpool are really not out of the park in terms of character development and whatnot, I think that at the end of the day, they're going to go, yeah, but we're going to make Deadpool kind of a bad guy again.
Someone in the chat just says Deadpool 31 throws a wrench into that. I haven't read that yet. I've been loving what Doug has been doing actually where it's like, yes, Deadpool is working for hydrate now, but like he was duped more or less. His love for cap has blinded him.
Well, same thing for cap or for Frank. True. Frank is actually I could see him being like, I always thought it was weird that Frank like worshipped Steve Rogers, but I buy it. Like I'm okay with it.
He's the man he could have been if his family didn't die, but I'm really kind of excited for a world where Frank is like screw the superheroes, especially Captain America. Like even Captain America gets caught up in this freaking bullshit. Like I'm kind of excited to see like again, like another angry bitter miserable Frank, just like we're going to see the collapse of Parker and we're going to see like a a schlebe like desperate child man, Peter Parker. I think that we're going to see like that what's it called secret empire will be a narrative device where we can roll back some of these characters from where we kind of developed them and then develop them into or or in continuity develop like degress them, regress them.
Yeah, you'll be really interesting what that will mean for the Captain America family to assuming if cap lives or dies by the end of this story, either he will die a martyr or he will live. And as I said in like when we were making our like marble pitches, you'll have to travel around the world essentially on like a forgiveness mission on I'm sorry world to. Yeah, I honestly feel like there there's no way they could kill cap because it'll only be compared to the last times the cap died and they're so stronger. Like cap's death after civil war is so much better than him being evil and then being assassinated or being like or being like kill me please I'm evil like no.
But but yeah, so what that being said, let's say like let's look at the marble comics in 2018. What do you expect to see? Where do you expect it to marvel to go? Do you expect them to kind of copy DC?
Do you expect them to just kind of like do what they do best because I've got a theory about that. I mean, I think they'll definitely probably take a couple plays out of their book because that's just sort of the way comic books work. I see this as a like ideally and again, this is totally like wishful thinking for me over here. I think it will be a time of rebuilding for many of the teams and many of the books and many of the status quotes like you'll probably see a more traditional Avengers lineup, you know, with classic ones that you remember will probably see, you know, some of the wounds from Civil War II start to get healed like again, like Miss Marvel and Captain Marvel had a big falling out over Civil War II.
They'll probably try and get back together after the end of that, you know, Spider-Man again, will maybe be more in the outs with the Avengers community and he'll be back to being like, you know, lone wolf Spider-Man. Yeah, I think you're right. I definitely think that when it comes to their street level characters, even though if you read Defenders, we're seeing like some of the more popular street level characters banding together, like, you know, we need to be a team and we're going to do that. And it's like, it's literally just new Avengers, but but it's without Spider-Man, but with no Spider-Man Wolverine, which is great because by then it's so I'm excited because Ben is care about those characters and when Ben is cares, they're fun to read.
True. But I think that I don't I don't see a lot of people are thinking like Marvel's going to copy DC, Marvel's going to do their own version of Rebirth. I don't think so. I think that Marvel needs such an editorial shake up from the ground all the way to the top that in order for them to do anything like Rebirth, they either need to have like Alonzo and Brevoort need to be like, we got to like have a sea have an emergency retreat.
We got to do a talent gobble where we grab as many really, really talented new creators as we can. There's a lot of good ones. There are great. A lot of great ones, but that's not what they like to do.
They like to work with the same people they've been working with the last 15 years. So what I mean, I honestly feel like Marvel, because there's no major shift in what they're doing editorially, I think that they might cosmic or cosmetically make it look like they're doing some rebirths where it's like, look, it's the things that you remember. But at the core, it's still going to be event after event after event. They swear they're not going to do what is it anymore events after this for at least 18 months, but then there's also Ben and Burst coming out.
Here's the thing. I like events and I have no problem with them. Dark Days the Forge is a great event, Secret Empire is an event that like while I wasn't really on board, I love to shoot for so hopefully it'll get better from there. There's an extra issue and more pages and all kinds of stuff that we can expect.
Yeah, but that's part for the course these days for what is that for freaking Marvel? Oh, yeah. But if the events are good and if they work and if they're relevant and if they matter and if they are engaging and interesting, then they're fine. Then I'm cool with it because I love seeing the Marvel Universe come together because that's for me that is more singularly Marvel than DC is seeing all these characters living in the same background or playground.
But I think that Marvel will not learn from the mistakes. I think that we're going to be surprised by how undifferent 2018 is from 2017. Well, as we said before, I think a lot of the problems that are happening with Marvel now is not talent, it's not story. It's all editorial right now that seems to be me capping them and causing all the trouble.
Until we see some like shakeups at the boardroom level, it's going to be really hard to see much change happen. Well, and it's interesting because like I mentioned Brevoort before, Brevoort's been around for a long time and he is very, very interested in the success of Marvel and in like good ideas and good stories. I'm shocked he's not in a higher place. He has a pretty good like what is it backlog of work himself that he's right.
Exactly. And like I said on many occasions, I do foresee Bendis getting some kind of promotion from like if Bendis decides to like that he's there's talents being wasted that he's not getting a fair shake that he's just if he gets bored, I can see him becoming editor in chief. I don't think it's gonna happen 2018, but I think more like 2023, you know, like towards the end of the Marvel studios, like boom, we're gonna see Bendis kind of move into an editorial role and when that happens, it could go either way because Marvel and IDM and but he also has a terrible habit of not appreciating other people's stories and just kind of doing his own thing. I agree with that.
But what I'm also thinking is like we've had a history Marvel has of using creators and putting them in roles they don't fit in like, well, I'm an artist into into the president and we'll share jobs. No, like make these people who know how to make business run and also respect their creators in those positions. And what the creators do the creating. Again, say what you want about Cassata, but again, we saw what he was able to do when he was young and hungry.
Let me tell you like everybody likes to give this shit and it's because like how far the money will fall on. But like when Cassata came on the scene, dude, he burned some bridges that DC came to Marvel and still had on his list of like top five things I want to do here, Avengers JLA is a crossover and called them personally said I want to make this happen and then make it happen. Dude had demons and skeletons over at the distinguished competition and still made it work without pissing people off. And of course, it's also like he has big push for Marvel nights and just working at Marvel and then revamping the Avengers fixing Spider-Man.
Listen, everybody blames Cassata for one more day, including myself, dude hadn't had an agenda. But remember Spider-Man before JMS came on the scene when it was the Howard Mackie years and it was it was in a really, really bad place. And Cassata was like Spider-Man needs to be working. If this book doesn't work, then it's not going to work.
Then Marvel itself is screwed. And so he pulls in Babylon 5 creator, James Michael Jaczynski, and let me tell you, that's the creator that got me back into comics. Lots of people. And say what you will about Jaczynski and the fact that he can't follow through or wrap things up, dude wrote damn good stories and fixed Spider-Man.
In fact, the dude was brought in and so tragic that he was brought in to repair the marriage with Peter and Mary Jane only than only five years later destroyed again. Yeah, what if I could make it? Did like, Jaczynski offend like an old gypsy woman or something in a past life because none of his shit ever gets to finish. Even on TV with Netflix, he doesn't get to finish any of that.
Yeah, I mean, listen, it's getting kind of conspiratorial at this point. Who did he piss off? Yeah. And the funny thing is, we talk about the Renaissance at Marvel and Cassata was like, let's do this.
Let's do something, change it up. He called Alan Moore. He called Neil Game and Alan Moore one of them both to work for Marvel. At least he got Neil Game and for a little while.
We got 60, no two out of a deal. One out of two, ain't bad. I don't know if that can happen today because Marvel was desperate and in trouble. And when you're desperate, you know, it's win or lose.
And that's me. You know, she put it all in. But you're not trying to things because you're too big to fail. You know, you're not trying new things because why not?
I'm bored. You're trying to things because you're like nothing else has worked. We have to get this working. I mean, Cassata and his people back when Marvel first jumped on pushed to get high profile creators like Kevin Smith to write things like Spider-Man so that he would go on the Tonight Show and promote a comic book first time like that we've seen that in a long time.
I think Stanley was on at one point like in the 70s or 80s or whatever it is about to sell comic book, but like they bought up milk ads and tied their characters in with the like. So it wasn't just, you know these Marvel characters from the comic books you read. No, they intrinsically tied their characters to the pop culture zeitgeist. So you would be like, yes, I know Thor.
I saw him hawking Buicks the other day. Like it wasn't just necessarily a corporate like money grabbing moment. Although it was and it like listen, it probably brought money in which Marvel desperately needed at the time. So it's hard to judge them.
But it also allowed them to culturally make these characters relevant in front of your face. Yeah. And I don't know and like the movies have done that better than a gut milk ever could. So you're good.
You don't need to do that shit anymore. But I think that Marvel needs to like focus inward and be afraid again. Marvel needs to be afraid of. Of failure and then you'll be afraid again.
That's it. I mean, I'm actually kind of sad fear itself started to work so long ago because I would love to see Marvel afraid and use that element of fear to help their, their, the age of heroes rise again. I mean, that I was watching, I was reading secret empire number four. All the heroes are fighting each other and I'm like, Oh my God, how many times can I look at these superheroes punching each other again?
And then you barely need villains in the Marvel universe. You don't. And then what's it called Hank Pym Ultron's like stop. Yeah, when the freaking machine man half Ultron is telling you to stop.
He's like stop. You people keep doing this and it needs to end. It's like, that's one of the only times when I don't mind expense or having the characters be him and talk directly to the reader because we need it to change. And I think that the Marvel's at its best when it's hungry and that's Marvel needs to do in the words of Hamilton.
They need to learn to be young, scrappy and hungry, get it, not give away their shot. That's right. They really do. And that's the thing about Marvel and where it's going.
No one's learning any lessons there. I don't think they're doing is like, I'm not saying copying. I really don't think the Marvel's copying DC rebirth. I think they took the idea of like of generations and legends or whatever from DC or at least took their piece and cues from the cultures of response and reception to DC rebirth.
I don't think that Marvel's like, we gotta do the dark floors, we gotta do the DC rebirth. We gotta bring in a property that has no business being in our property and tie it in with our main event. Like Watchmen, except Marvel has nothing like that so they can't actually battle. They have Star Wars.
They have Star Wars. Let me tell you something. I would be as excited to see a Star Wars Marvel crossover as I would be to see a Watchmen DC crossover. You fucking know it's coming.
Like that's probably like in case of emergency bright glass Marvel Star Wars. Well, they're in an emergency. And by the way, they're not in an emergency because they're publishing like 50 books a month and you know, they they're not hurting for cash. No, you know.
And they probably won't be for a long time. That's the thing about having a stake in a multinational entertainment company. You get a little complacent. Yes.
And I think that like, I think that you're right about the Nova thing about how they've listened to the loudest voices and they listen to the wrong people. Listen, we made a JSA video and more people like one of the few things besides futures and people requested on this channel is justice society. We did that. It was the worst performing.
Um, what's it called? Casting call that we've ever done. That's surprising. Just listening to the people being like, I want JSA.
It's like, listen, like you may. All like 12 of you might really, really, really want it. And that seems like a lot of people. There's 52,000 subscribers right now and they all need to watch what we're making here.
You know, Marvel needs to be like, I don't know what they need to do because I'm not a goddamn motherfucking book publisher. It's true. Like it ain't my goddamn job. It reminds me of that time when I was a kid and I was reading a Marvel comic and they had a little survey in the book in the book I'm reading.
It's a Spider-Man book. I opened up and it has a little survey about what I want to see. Would you like to see Gambit and Rogue get married? Would you like to see Spider-Man and Mary Jane get divorced?
And I'm like, motherfucker, do these things. Don't ask me because I think that this is all real. Like I want to be entertained by you. I don't want to like, I don't want to rip down the wall between you and me and then tell you what to do.
And then if you go, you got it apparently six boys and then two girls told us what to do. And so we're going to do, and that's our new publishing initiative. Like, you need to be afraid and be hungry and desperate so that you come up with your best ideas because here's the thing. Like I've proven in my own world that desperation is like the mother of invention.
It is. I mean, like I passed, I got out of college alive because all my research papers were written at the zero hour. It's the best. It was always better than when I was prepared.
I wrote it. It's months in advance. I got like a B. If I wrote it like 12 hours for it to do or less, boom, I got a night plus because like, I was desperate.
I was, I was reaching. I was coming up with new ideas. I was making points that like no one would think to make because it was four o'clock in the morning and I was like hungry and desperate and tired. Like it is.
Yes. And while necessity is the mother of invention desperation is the true mother of invention because I think it's yeah. I was just saying, what's that bit from Max Payne there? A beer gives Ned wings.
Right. Exactly. So besides making their street level characters more street level and making their, you know, that guy vigilante anti-hero characters a little more un, unfriendly. Yeah.
A little less, a little less hobnobby and elbow pumping. I think that it's going to be more the same. Yeah. I kind of feel the same way too because again, all the same people were running it for last week.
Yeah. That's right. 2018. I mean, it looks like it's going to be the same thing as 2017 and it's because there is no real change.
I mean, like you could literally kill Spiderman, which they've done three times and it wouldn't matter. Like because that would be a big shake up, right? The end of Secret Empire, Peter Parker gets shot between the eyes and his. Oh no.
Like, oh no. And that would be a big shake up and it would blow people's minds, but nothing would really change. Not really. You would have, you would put the death of a hero or death of Spiderman banners on tie in comics and you have a big like funeral for a friend type rollout, you know, posters and arm bands on bullshit, but nobody who's running the, who's driving the bus has changed.
So still going in the same damn direction. And then they'll use the same damn conventions to bring them back and make it so it doesn't matter. I mean, like the only thing that I'm kind of impressed with that they've done that's like that is Wolverine still being dead. Yeah.
And then you know that's more out of a fox spike than it is anything else. Yeah, it's just they literally gone like, well, as it turns out, we're not losing sales. So we can people like Wolverine no matter what the fuck we do with them. Yeah.
Wolverine Wolverine coming back to life is another desperate like is another pre desperation desperate move. Like, Oh no, sales are dipping in X men break last spring back Wolverine. And here's the crazy thing to I like old man Logan Moore is the thing I wasn't reading Wolverine books until he died and they made him all this shit. Right.
I don't know. One way or the other as far as well as for as old man Logan's concerned. The fact that they also still have to Wolverine's kind of like, Oh, you know, but we really need a third. Yeah, do we really need more Wolverines?
I think it's apparently Marvel's like, yes, because then we can finally have a Wolverine on each team like we've always wanted. Yeah, as opposed to just having the same Wolverine on every team. Let's bring talking back to over at it. No, that's one.
Everyone loves talking stay there wherever you now. They brought back the ultimate Wolverine son. They did. We have Jimmy Howlett now.
No, you don't need talking ever again. No, although apparently someone showed me a panel today from like webinac they go to like a dream world or like the afterlife and dok in his there. Good. Keep in there.
Stay there in the after. Just I want to be hopeful. I want to be excited. But I really I want I want Marvel to keep that Star Wars versus the Marvel Universe thing like way under way way way behind glass until there really is a regime change.
You know, until Marvel really does like shake up everything editorially so that like the people who are making the books are interested in making their name, making a name for themselves or or interested in elevating the product and being like, Hey, you know, be great. If Marvel spoke sold the top 10. Yeah, it was just an all Marvel. What are some other small things we would like we said, you know, the rebuilding of teams is something we'd like to see, you know, the return of status quows for a couple characters that they haven't had for a bit.
Do we want to see like some old costumes come back? Is that something we'd like to see? Yeah, I mean, like costumes come back as fine again, cosmetic, but I'd rather see teams form the rather see like the Marvel Universe kind of heal and if the band aid is in nostalgia band aid, I'm fine with that. But I want it to I want the Marvel Universe to finally heal.
I want a year where Marvel isn't infighting where Marvel is just is just growing healing and surviving. Yeah, bright as day that shit. Yeah, I want to marvel where Spider-Man is swinging through Manhattan and he sees Thor, you know, but Thor's going over there to another adventure. You know, maybe he's responding to an Avengers calls by and it's like, oh good, well, there go the Avengers, which I am not on because I'm too busy being miserable.
You know, it's just it there needs to be a breath, you know, I think the Japanese refer to it as ma just this moment where in between action where we just take a goddamn second. It's my favorite moment in every superhero movie, Superman Returns Avengers, a vultron every moment where the heroes are done fighting right before they're about to fight and every take a goddamn minute. It just goes and exists in their world because the Marvel Universe is interesting without it falling apart. Like, Stark Tower with the centuries watchtower on it was cool enough without seeing it fall the hell down three times.
I don't know. I don't know how they keep getting their deposit on that bill. I mean, it's isn't even up anymore at this point. Like, I don't even know.
I have no clue. It's funny. I was reviewing a Avengers number eight and I mentioned the Baxter building and people were freaking out the Baxter building. How did they get in there?
Oh, yeah, they've had the Baxter building for a bit. Yeah, I think Parker Industries owns that. He does and he's made that new pace of operation. By the way, that's one thing I really like.
I like that idea because it's explained in a nice way. It was kind of crappy, but like the moment where Spidey and Human Torture talking and he's like, I'm keeping it until they come back. Like when they come, like you can stay here if you want, but like when they come back, it's theirs. I'm like, yes.
Even commissioned a statue by Alicia Masters. I love that. I love that. In the front.
It's so funny because like the undercurrent of that speech Spider-Man gives it's like it's for you Johnny for when they come back. Come back from the Fox disease. When they come back from it. You can have it back.
You just have to come back. Yeah. And honestly, like I really want to see the Marvel Universe. I want to see the Fantastic Four in the cinematic universe.
But the real reason that I want to see all that should happen is because I'm tired because I know that old men don't change their minds. Not very often. And if old men aren't going to change their minds, then the only way you're going to get what they want is when they get their way. And so get the Fox deal going so that we can have our damn universe back together.
Yeah. Just frustrating. It's frustrating that things can be so fragmented. And maybe that's why the Marvel Universe has been fighting itself for so long.
Why so long? Never really ended. It's because Marvel has been splintered and fragmented. There's something wrong, fundamentally wrong with Marvel.
Man. It's the dark days tease. You know, like there's something dark and hidden in the heart of the DC world. And Batman knows what it is.
I want that to be a thing in the Marvel Universe where something happened at the core of the Earth that made it that fractured it. And it's making everybody crazy. Yeah. We were broken.
Once we were whole, then we were split asunder by a terrifying being zock off, which is just Fox back where it's actually. Yeah. It's not even funny. It's not even Fox.
It's not even Fox's fault. It's Marvel's fault for letting these things get this far. And for cow towing to that kind of pressure. Now that being said, I don't know what kind of pressure we're getting because nobody is because everyone's so damn afraid of that, of the man upstairs, instead of being afraid of alienating their readers and destroying the foundation that the entire damn future of their company is predicated on.
Like here's the thing. Everything that Marvel Studios invented. Is it nearly as awesome as the things that they're borrowing or homaging from the comics? Right?
I mean, like having Tony Stark and Bruce Banner build Ultron, nobody likes Ultron as a villain. Or if they do, they're like, Ultron was cool because he was intimidating and scary. But like he's not sympathetic. I don't care about Ultron.
He's boring and weird. He's literally just joss Whedon in a middle suit complaining. And yet, what was the moment made out of a clap when Vision held Scarlet Witch and implied for just a second that maybe they might be together? That's what I want to see.
That's what people want to see. They want to see the thing that they remember slash the thing that defines what this universe is all about. Like, I don't know. It's just like once you start breaking the mold for your whole universe, it's you can't go back.
You can't fix it. It's only getting worse. It's very strange, but you know what I'm also interested for generations and legacy because I think nothing else will give us plenty more to talk about. Oh no doubt.
I mean, like here's the thing. We're never going to run out of shit to talk about when it comes to this. We're lifers, man. Yeah.
But yeah, legacy and generations are symptomatic of the larger problem and they are not, I think, indicative of the future. I don't think that like we can explain. If those two things sell crazy and they're great, then we're still not going to see it like permeate into the greater Marvel universe development. I don't know.
I really don't believe that. I feel like those are just reactions. I think that it's why generations is going to interrupt secret empire, which is so freaking weird. That's another thing.
Hey, scheduling get on it. I guarantee you. I honestly believe that they didn't even have the idea for generations until halfway through secret empire and that when they add another issue and the sales for it are fine. They're good.
They're going to be up, but it's they're not overwhelmingly great. And honestly, like the reaction to it isn't overly great. And so when they saw that like people are kind of like after every subsequent issue, people were like, nah, secret empire. I'm kind of thinking about now.
And it's like, well, it's only been issue three. And there's like nine issues in this fucking thing. And issue six is going to be late and cost more. So we got to give them something to look forward to.
So we'll take a break. Which is a pretty unfortunate way to make an event and to do like a product line role. I'd be like, OK, you may not like this one. But we promise the next one though.
Oh, it's it's worse than just like this. Okay, this is the next thing. It's awesome. It's okay.
It's just that sucks. But what about this interruption of the event to keep your attention long enough? Like, no, when you're reading the event, each issue should ramp you up. But if people are getting less and less excited about secret empire after each issue, you're doing something wrong.
And I've been loving secret empire for the guy I've been on board from this from like day one about it. Yeah. And by the way, I liked it before. But it's just one three.
I was like, oh, I haven't read it yet. It's fun. I read the forage that had another show. But yeah, I'm looking forward to it now that I know you're seeing its phrases and that Ultron thing you were telling me.
I'm like, oh, I got to see that. No, I like that. Because it's because it's it's literally arguing about the problem. It's talking about the issue with Marvel, not necessarily with the company, but they are talking about the problem with the stories, which is what they should be worried about in the first place.
So yeah. Yeah. Well, I guess that's it. I got to get out of here pretty soon.
So I thought I thought we'd just kind of have a thought. But Ben, or Ben, I'm so used to talking when I'm talking about comics to other guys who should be. It's usually Ben or Ben or Ben or Ben. Yeah, exactly.
Sorry, Joel. Sorry, it happens. But yeah, Joel, any final thoughts about the future, any predictions about the future of Marvel 2018 besides cosmetic stuff? I mean, I'm always like, you know, optimistic, cautiously optimistic.
It's kind of my thing, especially now the comic books are my bread and butter and everything. I have hope for Marvel, they have some of the best characters in the world under their umbrella. I'm hoping that, yeah, the legacy generations era, whatever that ends up being, I can only hope that as we mentioned it's not just cosmetic, it's not just X-Men, Gold and Blue or something. It's the same stuff, just with a different coat of paint on it.
Yeah, I hope it's really cool. I don't think it's going to be, but I really hope it's. Here's the thing. I think it could be cool.
But my problem is I think it is not indicative of growth. You know what I mean? No. I think it's at best reactionary.
I mean, people like DC Rebirth, but I don't know if I want DC Rebirth to have it at Marvel. I just want Marvel to understand that, you know, infighting. I was going to say it's like because the problems are so different. DC needed a rebirth after the new 52 and after the DCU.
Marvel's problems are different because as we said, it's like all editorial. The stories are good, the characters are good, the writers are good. Yeah, yeah. Because everything around it is the environment around it that's choking the life out of it.
That's the thing. I have no major complaints about the treatment of most of the characters in the Marvel universe. Yeah. I'm a computer parker, but I've always complained about Peter Parker since I was a little boy.
Yeah, and he's always had ups and downs and he's always the thing. And even when he got the company, it's like, well, I give this about a year and a half. Yeah, no, it's true. But when it comes to the execution, Marvel has to, I think the end result is Marvel needs to learn to be afraid again.
The devil's in the details, man. But what's happening to you? We can check out this week, man. Well, you know, of course, I'll be having a bunch of reviews for everything we covered this week.
You can see Dark Days, you can see Secret Empire, you can see all that good stuff. Also we got a brand new episode of the comic multiverse. Matt and I talked with comics from last week. We talked about Black Panther teaser.
You can also find the new episode of the weekly poll course up on the weekly poll archiving bonus channel. That's all on that too. Check it out, guys. And over here, Comic Pop, back issues will be out in a little bit about an hour or so, and it is going to be Iron Man Doom Quest.
Ooh, that sounds like a good one. I've been very excited about this episode. It's been done for a few weeks. Very excited.
But anyway, that's it for us here at The Elsewhere Exchange. We'll see you guys next week on another episode, of course, but don't forget to like this video, subscribe to our channel. Of course, we'll listen to this episode on the iTunes and SoundClouds and Stitchers. Make sure to subscribe to us there and catch us every week about talking about comics and comic world events, I guess.
So we'll see you guys next time. So long everybody. Bye bye.