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All right, let's get on with the show now. Weeding down upon the underworld to smash gangland, come, a friend of the unfortunate enemy of criminal. In a serious, all powerful, character, a problem to the police, but a true state of all of us. Hey everybody, welcome to the Elspers Exchange, I'm Sal.
And I'm Joel. We'll be talking about some of the worst comic book events that we've ever read. We talk about comics, we share our thoughts and opinions about some aspect of comic dumb or comic ancillary connectivity. We do it for about an hour and hash it out.
We also participate in some back and forth with the audience through our super chats, which we encourage because it keeps this channel alive. It's all about diversification. You can't just survive on ad revenue alone. We got to do something else to keep the lights on here.
This is not my house. This is not an alley. I'm in a studio. I got to do this and also equipment and all sorts of stuff.
And so we do that as a result. Just a little bit explanation. I think a few people are like, why did you do super chats? Why do you only answer those?
Because we try to keep doing this as a living. You don't want me to go back to teaching and be like, hey, everybody, welcome to show. Just tired and mistering and all that. You want me here, fresh as daisy, ready to go.
Absolutely. Let's jump into it. Okay, so comic book events are funny because some people like to think that like Civil War 2006, 2000, it's like, oh, Civil War. It's like a big, you know, watershed moment for comic book events.
And certainly it was the one that made Marvel go like, let's only do events for now on. Yeah, but the shit got real as a word. And I think it helped to that that event got them a lot of free press like in the traditional media. I remember like CNN was talking about it because obviously a dovetail off the war in Iraq and people who were objecting to and people who were foreign.
It kind of caught the zeitgeist in a way few events really did. Completely. But I will say that like it's it's in no way different from like 10 years before, five years before 20 years before Marvel started doing it because Marvel's been doing events since like 1984. Yeah.
The real true first Marvel event was something like Marvel Superhero's contest of champions, which was horrible. I don't know if you want to talk about it too much because like whatever, if you really want to see me get into it, you should go over to our channel, which is here and check out our full episode about contest of champions. We're just going to make fun of it. But it is that was like where they're going, okay, let's just have a book.
It's called this will put all these characters in it and then have them all like needlessly fight. And shortly thereafter, there was a secret wars. The first one and and the list goes on and on, but they never really stopped doing events. And so Civil War is just like one of the events that they schedule.
They're like, yeah, no, we do these. This is like who we are. Don't be surprised if there are more of them. Yeah.
Marvel is no stranger to like the bad event. Neither is D so by the way. No one's hands are clean. Exactly.
Nobody's hands are clean. When you opt to jump into events, you are basically saying everybody like I'm going to do something real bad. It's going to be something that's going to be really bad at some point. And that's not to say there aren't some truly great ones to.
No, I agree. I agree. But this episode we're just going to talk about those events that like just were duds. Will I am golden in the chat just to ask the question?
I'm glad he asked because it hopefully dovetails into what I want to talk about in regards to like criteria. He said these Marvel's heroes were born an event. Especially and here's why. And by the way, I'm calling these things like based on my experience as a comic reader and I'll engage them against Joel's experience as a comic reader.
There's no like Bible that tells us what things are and how they should be. But I will say that like Marvel's superheroes was it heroes were born was a publishing initiative. It was an it's yeah. To like reset the status quo.
It was a line thing like DC rebirth is a line thing. Exactly like new 52 isn't an event. It's a publishing initiative. It's what they called the thing they're trying DC you not an event publishing.
Yeah. Like an event. That's true. But here's a born was like their attempted like the new 50 was trying to do 52 or ultimate Marvel before those concepts were were there.
So I wouldn't call that and I'm going to try and like avoid those. We're going to try not to talk about that. Like for example, I don't know if I can even really call the clone saga an event. No because it's a saga it went on for years.
I know some people are calling superior Spider-Man an event and I'm like, not that was just like a thing that happened for a year like red and blue Superman is not an event. It's a thing that happened. Right. Yeah, that's exactly like the clone saga was not technically an event.
It's just what they did to Spider-Man for many for several years. Yeah. It's ridiculous that it lasted as long as it did. But there's also another good criteria is there's no book called the clone saga.
No, there's maximum clone age and stuff like that. But even still. Exactly. But you know what like heroes reborn did eventually have a book that was called Heroes Return.
Heroes Return does technically count as an event, I think. You have to have tie-ins to be an event. I know that because Avengers no surrender is an event. Yes, but no.
It's a weekly event. Yes, but not but not a no tie-ins. Just the book just pure unadulterated book. Yeah, I like that.
Really respectable. But so we're not going to talk about maximum clone age, clone age alpha, Omega, the Ben Riley years, the lost years, all that crap. What about the clone conspiracy? That was definitely an event.
Absolutely an event. Not only did it happen as like a story arc and its own book and its own tie-ins. A tie-ins necessarily doesn't mean that it's an event, but it certainly does indicate events. It helps differentiate.
An event doesn't need a tie-in, but if you have a tie-in you're an event my friend. You might be a tie-in. You might be an event if you have a tie-in. What are we going to start that style?
Our blue collar comedy comics channel. Right. Oh my god. If you have a short and laughspan, you might be a clone.
Yeah, if you die and then degenerate into a pile of goo, you might be a clone. Yeah, just you might be and then just fill in the gaps with just like a multitude of events or of comic like minutia. If you got memory gaps and a healing factor, you might have been a member of the webinix program. Yeah, man, that's that's you might be in webinix.
That's a great. That's a sub-channel right there. Exactly. I'll be jumping into the super chats periodically.
I don't want to derail the conversation right off of that, but I will get to you. I also skipped, I don't know, you guess it, who said, let's cut to the chase, deathmate. Holy crap, man. Good, deep dive.
I actually wanted to include a picture of it, but you know what's funny about deathmate, which by the way, was an image-valiant event. Right, I was going to say. In the early to mid 90s in which they altered their line-wide status quo in an event that was like multiple parts, but they didn't want you to think that you could like miss it or feel like, you know, oh, I only got issue three, I got to go back. No.
So instead of numbering them, they colored them. I remember this now. So it was deathmate black and deathmate gold and deathmate red, and you're just like, oh, my God, so you could buy them out of order and it made just about as much sense as that could be in terms of plot narrative and structure. People wonder why valiant fell by the way side and needed to be completely rebuilt from the ground up.
Yeah, and they're certainly not in that direction anymore. No, no, no, no, history did not repeat itself. No, but I will say what's amazing about deathmate, the most amazing thing about deathmate is it was late and it never finished. Yep.
Which is a great hallmark of an event, by the way, lateness. That's the one two punch late, never finished. The one image united, image, the less we talk about image events the better. There is one that I will mention, I don't have a picture for it, is Mars attacks image.
Oh, no. Like the movie Mars attacks? Like the movie in like the top cards comic series, Mars attacks image. Whoof.
I have every issue of it. Of course we do it. There's no way I can dedicate any amount of space time, effort energy to Mars attacks image. What if someone drove a dump truck full of money up to your house then watch?
No, if we got like a thousand dollar member of Patreon is like, please Mars attacks image, tomorrow Mars attacks image. I'm just. I'm not above boring myself out. I'm just saying.
Like, because here's the thing, like I'm not, we have a page round, Patreon.com slash.com or you can get early access videos in a couple of weekly updates. But like the fact is we don't have a thing like Linkara does where you can like request videos like, oh, what are you doing up to this? And I'll pay this much to do it. We don't do that.
And the reason is because like I don't want to do books that I've never read before or that I have no interest in or any passion for. You want some sense of ownership because once you start selling video space chances are you might never stop. Exactly. Well, plus like then I got to do videos about either I've liked or that I don't really care about.
And so the least, the last thing you guys want is a weary host. It's something that's just like doing it for the money or doing it because like I'm doing it for the money. But like I'm monetizing the thing that I want to do. Yeah.
So it's not like I'm doing it because I'm a big whore. I am a big whore. Don't get me bored. But I'm also like, you don't want me to like talk about books that I don't care about.
But that being said, I did read, own and enjoy slash hate Mars attacks image and would one day do it. Similarly, I would love to Ghostbusters. But like there's a side episode of Elsworth's Exchange that came out last week where I talked to me and your urnum and Dan showing about Ghostbusters. It's a great episode.
It's a terrific conversation. Great insights, some fun behind the scenes stuff about making comics and about your favorite Ghost Busting franchise. 3000 views, lowest performing Elsworth's Exchange of all time. I was going to say I'm not going to feel bad about getting bumped but oh really, lowest Elsworth's Exchange of all time, Jesus.
It's never been worse than our Ghostbusters episode, which means you guys don't like Ghostbusters. You're never going to see on this channel. Or Ghost Busters. Forget it.
But yeah, and that was just that was a no risk. Like hey, I'm just going to hang out with my friends like that kind of thing. And it just it just died on the vine. Oh, that's sad.
I'm sorry to hear that. Me too. If we were to do a patron exclusive thing about it, like that would be great. I would love to do Ghost Busters get real or Ninja Turtles Ghost Busters.
But it's just failed so badly. There's no way I could dedicate any time or effort or space to it. So yeah, anyway, so that's why I mentioned Mars Tax Image. But yeah, so Joel, please take us down memory lane.
So what are a couple of your least favorite events and by that I mean what you consider to be some of the worst events all time. It's funny as we sit here and talk about it, I was actually reminded of more dad to the list. Of course, I'm glad we did this. I mean, I guess let's let's not be around the bush on this one.
Let's let's start with a big gun on this one and move our way forward from there. Futures end the big new 52 weekly DC series that I don't even know what the hell they were trying to do with this one. I get this was still on the point where they're like, yeah, new 52, everything that you like happened. But it happened within five years, except for the stuff we said it didn't.
Well, let's let's jump ahead multiple years now and see let's see what the universe could potentially look like and let's experiment about maybe, you know, oh, because we got earth two going on. What if potentially in five years we start to maybe, you know, move those characters over and we kind of have a fusing of the universe is what would what would that be like then? The answer is lots of stuff happened and none of it was very good. Like, what was very edgy was very dark.
Like it was it's actually ironic that new 52 futures end is the last event that's called new 52 anything because it was like wholly representative of everything that I hate about the new 52. It was dark. It was edgy. It was like just just the biggest edge Lord bullshit you could possibly imagine all lateral changes where it's like, hey, or sub changes where you're like, let's ruin firestorm or let's let's have the whole damn thing not matter.
Like literally what happened to no one you care about because technically no one you care about in the main company appears in this book. So yeah, also I don't know about this all camera. I don't know what editor had all hard on for Earth to for new 52 to two, but like world's end futures end convergence. Everything is all about those goddamn refugee fake Earth people that like just do just do the justice society like just do that.
Why are you so held and on these crappy like knock off weirdo displaced unhappy miserable versions of your other favorite characters like what are you trying to prove you're building a universe with the new 52 and you're going to go like let's look over here at this planet over here. Like you barely you barely scored with your 52. It's it's it's yeah, it's funny. I think I think the plan for Earth to change constantly.
I think when Robinson came on it's like hey, just do a weird modern updated love letter to Golden Age here. I was like, oh, I like that. I do invaders too. I can totally do this.
Okay. Okay, we're going to end your universe now. You know, the planet's getting destroyed. Get rid of it.
Oh, got it actually sold pretty good. Keep it going then. Okay, Robinson, you're gone. Taylor, you're in.
Oh, God, Taylor, you're actually really talented and you're killing it in injustice right now. You're actually really good doing alternate takes on characters. Fuck. Okay.
So the planet, oh, God, future's end is terrible and people don't like, okay, start a new universe and then we'll start killing that Earth all over again. I guess. I don't know. It was it was a mistake and it all we can all thank 52 for it because like it was a great idea, brilliant execution, beautiful series and it worked and it came out and like 52 books a year, holy crap, I'm in weekly series, new 52 futures and can't there's nothing about it that's good or exciting or well executed.
It's just a big that mess. It's it's hilarious. I really wish that the videos I made when I worked for name redacted were still around because you can literally hear me going insane by the end of that by the final one, I'm pulling my goddamn hair out and it was the batman beyond because that was the carrot on the string for futures and it's like, hey, Batman beyond his cannon now guys, Terry's gonna come to the modern age. You can read Terry stories now.
Isn't that gonna be great? Let's fucking kill him. Let's kill him. Let's not even make him really Terry because he acts like an automaton.
He has like he's never been with a woman before. Yes. Yes. He has sex with one of the villains.
Yeah, exactly. Plus, I think and like he has no like he's not Terry in any way. No. And he's some guy.
Right. It's just it's not enough to put the batman beyond costume in the book and expect people to buy it except it is because here's the thing about mostly event is that they sold that you guys we all bought him. We did. That's why like I have a policy now like I've had a policy for a good two years where it's like if I read an event first issue if I'm not sold I don't do it.
Future's end is that example by the way. We started this channel around the time of Future's end started and we got the free comp of the issue. We all read it. There's an author back episode you can watch of me Ben Ethan reviewing that issue.
We're like this is horseshit and never read another issue never bought another issue until it finally was released in trades. And I'm all the better for it. Everybody's like oh if you just got them into it and they're just all tear. Oh that's the end of it.
They're all tearing their hair out. It really really was I remember keeping up with it. Okay I don't like this but people seem to like my videos of me going nuts because they're not reading it so they want someone to tell them what's going on and it's all this is my bullet all take for the fan base and everything and just man as soon as it was over they were already sweeping everything under the rug. What's like well that didn't happen.
Yeah exactly. And just characters that get in bed like here's the other thing about Future's end it had like 10 writers on it who never wrote together before with completely contrasting styles I swear it by the halfway point as a relic was just fucking with people's like I moved your characters around asshole trying to move them back now. Oh god who did they invent. Oh they really wanted to push a grifter this was like the third time grifter is now Roddy Roddy Piper from they lived as he can see the Earth two people as powers that let him see aliens also let him see Earth two people.
Used to be I can only see Damon lights but now I can see all I can I can advance all movie plotlines I'm the Layla Miller of New 52 Future's end boy was he and then they created 50 sooth this God's shot. The less said about 50 sooth better let's just the worst are we supposed to like this character or is this like Azarela or someone doing a commentary on God's child characters. Is that his best grandmoorerson impression and failing hard at it. Yeah where she's just hateful and horrible and there's no reason to like this character and then these two British bodyguards who they invent for a couple issues bangers and mash who hang out for a bit and then there's some because I was thinking of the friggin eel fish that's they basically were flotsam and jetsam that's fine we can't this is not the future's end show we got we gotta move on I'm sorry the more we could say about it we're not going to let's just put it this way future sucks don't even read it boy howdy Matios Mendoza what about DC's millennium what about it I don't I don't even remember that what was that one about the Guardians leave it's weird and boring it's not great it's written by Joe's it's written by Steve Englehart where it's which should be great it just not it's just not it's just really boring sounds it sorry good no I was done Taylor Pashter it's more divisive that it's worst but identity crisis the people that hate it really but something yeah dude I also I enjoyed infinite cry I'm sorry identity crisis I also enjoyed identity crisis whether or not you'll enjoy identity crisis really comes down to how much you care about like some of the minor DC characters in minutiae because they fuck over quite a few families in that book for no other for no other reason than just drama you know I will see your identity crisis I'm not a big fan but I know Salas I will see your identity crisis and I raise you cry for justice which I think does everything bad that identity crisis does but worse everybody agrees cry for justice worst thing it's what starts the downfall of poor Roy Harper yeah yeah that's the beginning of the end that's beginning for everything man cry for justice I skipped over amazing zero who said heroes in crisis and then he made a laughing like little things I'll reserve judgment till it's over yeah I mean it's not done yet they could save it you don't know I can't the campbell hat trick that says that Harley Quinn could beat Batman and wonder when at the same time and then have Superman's earnestly there's no way I remember reading about in our Facebook group people are like you know when Superman says she's as good as you Batman people are saying like he's doing the dick he's mad the Batman lied to him no he's not there's not an ounce of of of malice on his face you could tell he is earnest as as the day long Tom King thinks or wants you to think that Harley could be Batman if I because Tom King thinks that's fucking hilarious yeah I mean he's sorry he's also the guy who wrote that catwoman could one punch out all the flashes so I mean you know it's not good crazy to think he thinks that the line that gets me is the oh Superman you could you know you could break the lasso you can't break the lasso it's it's unbreakable that's the point the only time you can break that the lasso is in friggin Superman right son son and then it drives one woman crazy yes that's fine but that's an else world you can get away with it and else this is the main universe damn it with else there's rules here Tom there's rules right and if you want to say that heroes and crayons takes place in alternate earth and that this whole thing is an else world story I will I will clap you on the back and hand you twenty dollars that's fine yeah comic olympic morning fellows Civil War II came out when I got back into comics and I almost walked right back comics I'm sorry Civil War II is doubly painful for me also you guys rock thanks comic gobby so let's talk about Civil War II let's I think we have to I mean we're still feeling the after effects of that event in the characters that it fucked over mainly Captain Marvel she was doing fine and this one was tantamount to character assassination almost worse than what Iron Man got in the original Civil War but at least he got a cool movie and he got to bring everyone together for World War Hulk and he eventually walked back a lot of his dickish behavior yes no they we like you said we are still there we're still living in the fall of the Civil War II which was created for the reasons that I hate the most which is a movie coming out make it like the movie even though it's there's no movie that looks at anything like Civil War II no Civil War II is obviously because people get mad at Bendis for like this get mad at Bendis for creating role bizarre don't get mad at Bendis we're taking a big fat check from his overlords at Marvel like that I don't like he did the best he could with the with zero direction yeah because he's not in Civil War the movie and make a book that's called Civil War that's out by the time the movie Civil War is out yeah that's all he was probably told to do and he did the best he could but the reality is you ruin Carol Danvers's result the book itself not interesting to one the best thing about it is the art yes it's a very pretty book don't forget to focus is on like you know stupid again stupid God Child characters you what was his name you listies yeah you listies will be important for everything he's also an inhuman because we're pushing the in humans right now so we need to talk about how important they all are for a minute yeah it was a it was a line wide it was it was like a it was like a quick cleaning house it's more like just a grocery list of crap we need we think we need to get done not even things we need to get done like what we need to do is get a lock on a status quo of Daredevil what we need to do is got our Marvel likes imprint back what we need to do is have tighter editorial control no we don't need to do is artificially pushing humans create annoying cosmic characters like you listies ruin one of the like five female Marvel superhero characters that we could actually make movies out of and yeah like and also like wreck the status quo for Iron Man for no reason oh yeah put him in a coma for a little bit I forgot about that yeah oh also make a Hawkeye public enemy number one and kill the Hulk we don't need to do any of the things that happened this we did anything with yeah no I forgot there that Clayton was a public enemy number one for a minute they did nothing with that oh it did okay one thing that actually did end up leading to yeah was the creation of the champions because the kids were so disillusioned with what Jack asks is the adults were being in dealing with each other and not playing nice they're like well screw you guys then we're gonna go start our own club only young people will be invited right which is fine like that's a you know what like a new book with a new idea came out hey way to go like I'm impressed that you were able to do that out that that that one thing that you got done from this yeah Ben Bastion says what you guys think of the new Marvel I love the concept it's good I dig it I'm not quite sure like how it ties in with Marvel lights the original book slash yeah oh but it's still cool and I'll check it out it feels like a sort of story I probably could have read in Marvel nights at some point it's like I know here's a big idea outside the box you don't really need to know anything to come into it and you know we're doing some stuff and characters are different but you know they're kind of how you remember exactly Tyler Bast so convergence wasn't that just a mess let's talk about convergence I remember liking convergence when it was going on but only because I really liked some of the little tie in specials you got like yo you're Superman how you remember here's green arrow the way you like and remember Emma convergence of the same thing that civil law is doing except like for another weird reason like it was convergence was oh shit we're moving and we can't make anything like we we got to put something out while we're moving we got something that could be written ahead of time drawn ahead of time and have it come out while we are transitioning to Burbank what can we do convergence was it convergence is so boring and so pointless and so ultimately like confusing yeah everything about it was weird and stupid and if you ever check out our channel and go back to our archives we went all in the way you went all in on futures and we went all in on convergence and I was excited about convergence I was like this is a cool idea you could actually kind of like almost zero hour crisis convergence into the new status quo you could rebirth DC out of conversion instead we brought Arrak back give him a dumb ass name have you audacity give him a series for a little while oh yeah for game tell those who was brainiac but wasn't brainiac but thanks futures and for making the brainiac that's in convergence by the way you suck yeah convergent best thing about cations which is the first time I've ever said that about any event in my life so that's got to be something good job convergence it did bring back pre flashpoint Superman it did ushered in rebirth Superman it brought us John is a lot of bullshit from that that's not enough you could have easily done that without any of convergence convergence for me is Wizard of Oz Earth 2 screw you I don't want to read that which I mean you know it's funny I probably back then would have defended convergence because I was more in on the earth to characters but now that I know the earth two characters didn't go anywhere it didn't amount to anything now it's like well now there's not anything worth defending I'm defending dust now exactly exactly chase I could agree with us how about convergence how about a man is dog shit it's pointless now point it's point it's worse than pointless can you imagine 20 years from now like pick it up convergence we pick up Christ of the Earth and be like what the fuck is it's a goddamn mess now you would need a ton of backstory to even pick it up because now none of it makes sense anymore will I am golden DC wild storms dream war I didn't read dream war that reminds me in a convergence there they actually did pull some wild storm characters and characters from other universes to show up they're like I think Aquaman fought death blow for a minute I think you're right I mean like I don't know what it was well Jim Lee was present that's what because of characters after like during that time like flashpoint like oh wild storm part of it and then it's new 52 futures and they're like okay grifter and storm watch and eternity and how about this and that's like who has for this let's make a cool champions S-Genther teen book ever heck make up make a midnighter book that lasts longer than a short run in a mini series yeah midnighter Apollo at least the midnighter book came out of it but it lasted what eight issues something like that they were solid though that was Orlando who was writing that I thought he had an interesting voice for a midnighter yeah Keith Giffon wrote Dream War which means I would probably loathe it.
I'm Jan Call X at least in Virgin Saved Liam Lee and Harper from Dying in Cry for Justice Mary Dick and Barbara together and gave us baby Jonathan Kent and then swept it all away though yeah it was a carry it was the thing that teased us for a little bit if you wanted to see Dick and Barbara together like enjoy your alternate reality they get together and then the world ends storm but we did get baby John out of it so I guess it's not all bad it's not all bad Taylor Pester asked why future send had such beautiful covers by Ryan's book oh I know he killed all those covers it almost tricked you into thinking we're gonna read a better book entirely and Kevin Little just throwing us some change thank you so much for that awesome also tell you want to know about Nifity to Krypton Returns and the culling oh fuck the culling that teen Titans thing that was love Dell at top height love Dell where it's like man you know so kids really love them Hunger Games right so what if I did Hunger Games with these teen Titans characters what if I stuck them on an alien planet and they all had to kill each other and also I'll introduce Artemis from that young justice show because people like her and I'll kill her off right away too isn't that just also Avengers arena yes oh no only worse it was worse than Avengers arena can I also say by the way just as a quick aside about like everything like you know why are there Armageddon and deep impact coming out in the same summer remember we're talking about like how wait whoa whoa just like number one Avengers number one look almost the same gods are coming down and Reva now they're both in the water just yep what I truly I truly think Jason Aaron and Scott said they have a skit chat like you and they're just laughing and having fun like hey I have a break between my next thing making about the water okay okay let's do time travel next yeah yeah let's do time travel like damn it anyway so they're just playing a joke on all of us and then when the editors come and be like hey Scott Jason or she like but the other company they're doing this thing it's just a coincidence I mean great minds think alike what can I tell you and I give that moving on money still green can we talk a little bit about how crappy access was oh yeah again access another one I might have defended once upon a time but it didn't build up to anything no the best thing about it is a superior Iron Man yes and and carnage to we got that carnage many I thought it was not great oh you know I was do you mean the the one that was a natural time at the jerry conway one no no the the time one where carnage tries to be a good guy and fights a new cineater oh yeah that's right okay yeah again weird tie ins worked out a little better worked out better because it's like yeah you know what would these characters be like if they were inverted and it's it's some writers played with this and some didn't where it's like yeah it's not that we turn to the good and evil switch it's that they truly are inverted so they're still themselves it's just their morals have been thrown into out a wack yeah I gotta say by the way the only thing I can really thank a reminder for out of access is not character assassinating spider-man yeah like thank you for making him like the one guy the one guy that was nice that he was the one guy who didn't get it and also to you had to hang out with the younger heroes to us that was a nice back door to help push novents on these other heroes who weren't invited to the big battle so didn't get inverted exactly so I'm okay with that uh jed pool had an amazing tie into that story too because obviously kid apocalypse gets inverted and becomes regular apocalypse and wants to kill everyone and it's really hard for Wade because that's his adopted son and like one of the few people who genuinely loves him for him and also like he went through shit to convince them to leave them alone yeah and then to be like oh no no he really yeah turns out we were actually right Wade and we should kill him no should kill them oh and Deadpool got inverted too and he became super calm and like super chill he became like Buddhist Deadpool oh that's right he's like the voices stop which again is a throwaway joke in the main story but in the main book Duggan actually does a lot with that that's the thing like these are all really really good ideas that other people like execute great this main event though access was just like what the crap is happening excuse to write to write a bunch to basically be like what if Garthan is worth the Marvel universe for a while yeah again the bit that I liked in this game right at the end it's the magneto and Dr. Doom moment where they're inverted to be good guys which they were always kind of on the fence of the young guys bad guys anyway and they're like you know once we do this we'll forget and they're like maybe we can be good men again sometime right Victor and I'm like ah that's such a beautiful moment in this story I agree uh Crescend Medston saying don't give up on Ghostbusters we all need Ghostbusters content comic pop ass gotta grow the fan base out we out there clean up the town believe in magic taking control on our own here in the spirit yeah Crescend and you are preaching to the choir my friend but it's not gonna help but thank you very much for your love I do appreciate it thanks for being one of the people who watch the episode one of the ghost faithful Laura's moth hand are reminding us about DC Armageddon 2001 oh yeah with Monarch member Monarch everyone forget Monarch who was supposed to be Falcon so it's right now our clock and they turn out to be Hawk right and then they did the same thing again but I'm surprised they haven't tried to use Monarch on Legends of tomorrow because Adam is on that show and they do a bunch of time travel anyway so they should have a time travel going next Armageddon 2001 is a great name they call it Armageddon 2020 or something like that who cares but like Armageddon's a great name Monarch is a neat outfit extents voice but making him into like using the if you literally just use the original pitch for Armageddon and made into Legends tomorrow or made it a CW event I think that would be amazing it'd be hard to now because Legends is a comedy now right but you could bring it into Legends and that'd be kind of fun you could you absolutely could but yeah we didn't mention Armageddon until they had Rich Hunter for a bit because he did so there you go but I didn't mention Armageddon just because like why I can't talk about another one that didn't matter as soon as it was over Preston Brian there's only five Marvel female superheroes are you kidding are you guys still reading champions no I dropped champions I'm making champions good so good call but yeah no it's a it I dropped it I couldn't do it like I the Mark Wade series got like went from like fine to I got to skip it like it wasn't even like the politics it was just like I just ultimately found myself not giving a crap about anyone in the book it's real good under Zub right now he's actually breathed a lot of fresh life into it I've heard that and I will probably check it out at some point I'm not sold like with Zadarski outside of his How Are The Duck I love most of the things that Zadarski writes so like if you say Zadarski writing I'm in a wood jim sub oh I was out but I'm not but I'm not sold on Zub like not everything he writes is something I've got to read like I'm just not sold on Zub so I don't know if I'll jump in I might read another issue or so but we'll see did you see this newest arc they're doing because Zub also writes the Dungeons and Dragons comics he sent the champions to Weird World and they all got cool they all got cool Dungeons and Dragons comics and it's just a wonderful like oh look we got the Korean in here oh look we got Warforged and we got this that the other thing yes I God what was it about that when I when we were at somewhere in Canada we ran into Zub and he basically said like I'm a big D&D fan and I want that like that was a deliberate thing because he just plays D&D yep and he writes the D&D books and it's wonderful exactly so yeah Telepestra wanted to know thoughts on both of the eternals I love Batman and Robin eternal but I'm a little mixed on Batman eternal same Batman and Robin eternal was actually really solid and created a pretty cool new villain and it was great because Batman was gone at this point we had bat meck at that time and it was all about the side kicks and it grew them in great interesting ways yes I loved the first issue of Batman eternal but I knew I could see the writing on the wall you know I was like this there was so much like drama and epic nonsense going on DC at the time particularly Batman I just like I don't think I have the patience or the stomach for this right now it was too long because it was too long was its biggest problem yeah exactly which is why Batman and Robin eternal is literally half a bat man eternal right so smart Hector as far as a as far as I saying how about Marvel's axis haha yeah exactly man we just talked about it I'm glad we got a chance to mention you recommended woof vanishes Boa Ventura deus hey I know you talked about it but I like to know your two cents on onslaught even the maybe quick comics back in the 90s good question about onslaught onslaught I think was a great idea that just spun out of control a boy did it look cool or at least onslaught look cool look at what onslaught look dope until the image you're seeing on the screen where he looks like a video game character which of course he became with Marvel vs Capcom but like man I love the design for onslaught basically just beefier magneto yeah with no face looks dope the idea of like using the continuity of like oh professor X mine my back you know but part of him and printed on to him like so funny but like such a great concept of like professor X being the the X trader and like tiny with like no that's the X trader the bitch was talking about like a lot of really neat ideas it ultimately was like if you read the omnibus it's like it's a lot of wheel spinning but it does do a good job of making it so that like the universe hates X-Men again it's a wonderful time capsule to of that event in or that time in comics and especially of X-Men in comics at that time yes absolutely you were totally right but yeah I think I think that's a terrible event I don't know if it even really qualifies as an event because it's also kind of like a status quo for a while yeah but I know they were selling it as an event so like I'll I'll I'll I'll I'll give some Bradfield as an osu fan you listen to the war ashamed me mmm yeah no that's a disaster that's the best that's okay he went back to his home plan and we'll never have to see him again I hope we don't I hope he dies off panel in a tie in somewhere like a lunatic does do you have any others there on your list that we haven't got a chance to talk to about I know there's a DC one well here I'll give you a Marvel one right here because this one actually did hurt me because I'm like a huge torch carrying fan for this character and the fact that this character never gets events I think is testament to how bad this one was they got one then they never got another one after Shadowland Shadowland is so bad that is and how they could have gotten away with it being so bad because Daredevil was so good and had such amazing uninterrupted runs of quality creators and artists and everything else probably doing part by the fact that he was left alone and was unmolested by the events of the Marvel universe since forever so they're left so they're like man Daredevil's pretty hot huh everyone's really loving Daredevil let's have a Daredevil event yeah let's ruin that I mean like it's funny Shadowland is such a great idea that most of us thought season three was gonna be Shadowland or the defenders was gonna be Shadowland yeah yeah because I love the idea and I'm so glad they didn't shy away from it I remember being like oh this is a great idea like all the street level characters we can actually treat Spider-Man like a street level character again for a few minutes and we can time in with Daredevil's connection because like they have like a history together yeah but not not so much it's kind of a mess it really really is it also even the reasoning for why it's up to the street level characters to handle this is stupid it's because the Avengers at that time are like a power man and iron because you guys got this right you got it okay cool you know him right yeah you can deal with it right like yes I technically know him but since we our office is literally like a block from Shadowland maybe we should do something about it yeah I don't know if you guys noticed but a giant evil ninja temple just sprung up here overnight yeah no let's just leave it alone it's like when you're playing the spider-man video game and the whole city's on fire and you swing by the Avengers Tower and you go anybody want to come over and do something you mean to tell me that none of you have a television on the west coast it's spide he's got it yeah I guess I've got it the whole city's on fire and I'm maybe 29 but like I guess I'll just have to handle this on my own there's martial law and a virus outbreak but I'll but I got this you you take it easy Avengers you take it easy you deserve this one you deserve a pass but Shadowland man crappy yeah I know and also like it has some like the worst bits of parallax to where it's like hey what if Daredevil was a villain and became a gross devil man for a little bit it's totally parallax that's just them trying to parallax it up and you mentioned to their it's like oh yeah you know we'll actually give the spotlight to some street level characters for once and we'll let them be the heroes of their own store then we'll then Wolverine just shows up out of the blue hi Bob you're gonna do this without me huh I'm technically street level sometimes technically not powerful enough to take on cosmic level events like yes that's true no one invited you and the fact that like you know that was Diggle who was writing Daredevil at that point I think Diggles run really never quite recovered from Shadowland like he would still tell some pretty good stories but even still that's that's the black eye on the other wise sterling succession of Daredevil writers where it's like you know man this is really good you know from the Good Miller to Bendis to Ruka to everything else and it's like ooh dig a lot no no no no no no no no no we can skip dig a little I think we can skip you which I think after that it was like nobody's for a bit to wait came along that's like okay we're getting rid of all the grim and dark he's going back to being a happy swashbuckler now for a couple years yeah because nobody can really do what they did yeah Shadowland pass the don't bother bad time yeah exactly what else did you have that you mentioned now here's when we talked about before we even started and this one sucks because this one is a lie apocalypse war from the last time they tried to reboot X-Men being like no we promise it's gonna stick this time this was before blue and red and gold this was extraordinary and uncanny we're like no no this is how it's gonna be from now on and then when the apocalypse more movie came out they're like oh we need a big apocalypse event only it wasn't an event they colded an event but it was just three completely separate non-connected stories from the three completely separate non-connected X-Men books yeah that's exactly what it was oops yeah that that one blew the one kind of good one was when Beast and Kita Pocklips again went back in time and met young in Sabineur and they kind of had a whole oh would you kill baby Hitler moments yeah exactly that was the one kind of okay one but the rest were just a wholly forgettable as those runs were wholly forgetable yeah no you're not wrong there what was it pricey 84 40 two words zero hour mmm our sucks on toast it's and like here's thing Dan Turgan's yeah it's it's dumb it tries to do it does everything wrong it capitalizes on the failure of arm again 2001 it tries to put the DC universe into real time good luck don't do that and also tries to fix Hawkman while also making Hawkman even more infinitely complicated yeah and that was just for starters they also like fixed a couple of the JSA members it was it was dumb and it was like it's short but like and also yeah it tried to be here's thing it was a 10 it was a 10 year anniversary for Christ's I mean it's and what crisis was like an idea zero hours like let's do an event because it's the 10 year anniversary yep also a parallax also parallax is like the secret culprit behind all damn thing that is kind of fun but also really really dumb and like I almost wish they just give it to Ron Mars and up yeah just just let Mars do it he seems to be happy writing like forgettable epic green lantern parallaxian references yeah mr. about of salin Joel is more of the worst comics more more of his living that when he got a solo series for a little bit I'm amazed anyone even remember that yeah this was during the superior era it was basically just spawn he goes to Brownsville he lives in an alley he defends hobos yeah that's not a good idea the only one book can do that and even then it could only do it for probably about 80 issues there's also a previous more of a series that I remember reading as a kid during the midnight suns era oh more horror oriented we actually did on the good of the bad of the game by he loved it and so did everyone else in the table except for me and the reason because I actually achieved horror in a good way is actually like it was like the reanimator kind of horror book so sweet check that out red samurai ultimatum also I'm desperately hoping you guys are all right it's on here oh yeah about the ultimate universe and discuss X-Men fan has four ultimatum and maybe man one day but at the right now we can talk about ultimatum and how it's the worst thing ever and there's literally no reason for it to exist the universe never recovered from it and they did it for no reason that's the thing like why I can understand if you I don't know if the universe is only ten years old yep like it wasn't that bad the ultimate's line was terrible because of your marvel bad decision to get jeff lobe to do those ultimate books mm-hmm okay jeff you fucked everything up why don't you do an event to clean everything up it would be like if you hired a bad plumber to fix your plumbing he fucks up everything and then you hire him to fix what he fucked up what are you it makes no sense just makes no sense also talk about grim dark for grim dark secrets like let's not just kill a whole swath of characters let's kill them in a horrifying violent way let's eat the wasps let's strangle dr. strains to death let's kill daritable off fucking panel let's blast Wolverine into like into into skeletons even though I don't think cyclops octoplast can do that let's kill cyclops with a bullet it's just it's a it's a bunch of goddamn bullshit and it's stupid and and it's unforgivably dumb it feels bad what's frustrating about it is of course the taynes are better the ultimate spider-man book was so great and i'm already bitching about it when it was happening i'm like i'm loving this the stuff that benness does with imminen is so good and so juicy and yet like i remember being like no no who cares but ultimatum i'm not reading those books i don't care about the fantastic forum care about x-men like i'm only reading ultimatum spider-man that book was great and you know that beautiful image that's a double page splash of jj jones jameson underwater in the daily view go and there's spider-man diving in saving people and that's the character term on it for jona and it's so good and you can't have ultimatum so even though ultim sucks you get that beautiful spider-man issue it's so great what was the last event they did for the ultimate universe was it cataclysm it was when the real galactus crossed over and started fucking over their planet there were three ultimate events that all tried to like tell you the galactus was coming and i don't even i think it was cataclysm right real galactus shows up which again i was not reading the main cataclysm book i didn't give a shit about the ultimate years but i was reading miles his book and miles had some good shit in there where he got to be a hero and you know do stuff yeah uh by the way isn't that kind of like when apocalypse went or when darks i went and destroyed uh earth two a little bit little bit kind of funny uh anyway the less than about ultimatum the better just let's let's let's just leave it at it's garbage we're wrapping up pretty soon so i just need to attempt to attempt to deal with the superchats we'll do that at the end of the show uh jole what else you got on your list that we want to cover before we go i think this one might be the most forgettable one that i have on here like i had to actually strain to remember this one robin war i do remember it though because like fuck robin for it's again i can see what they wanted to do they had high aspirations and i wish they succeeded like look we're gonna establish duke as a force in the dc universe we're gonna establish all the sidekicks we're gonna give them the spotlight no batman in this story we're gonna bring back the corner bowels only everything ended up blowing up in their face everything that could have went wrong with that story went wrong with that story duke gets supplanted for damey and who just beats up everyone improves that he's better than everybody all the time which makes him more annoying oh god it it tried to be social commentary because obviously you know that we are robin kids we're obviously a bunch of street kids so they tried to tell a story about like police brutality and police corruption yeah but it's clear i think it was vermejo who was writing that it was clear that he didn't know what he was talking about so that felt uncomfortable and bad and like oh this is bad topical is what this is and uh oh it was the death nail for the cord of owls too where they used to be so mysterious and so cool and link in marches like oh i actually have super owls that you didn't know about that are underground and they're bigger and tougher than the other talent owls that you fought before even though they used to take a bunch for batman to fight and kill one but now they're like the freaking foot ninjas now everyone's fighting them all the time killing them all the time so stupid i just did a lot of war i remember reading reading the first part and being like all right nope oh there was some stupid shit what's like oh and i put a bomb in davian's brain which they never finished that at the end of the story but then tim seelian uh in his new night wing books like i fixed it oh good just like in the first page like i fixed it boy glad we didn't leave that one hang and hug guys that'd be a really stupid plot point to leave hanging yeah that's true the davian had a dumb bomb in his brain yeah robin war i remember when we covered it on off the rack and it like got like the lowest views ever i'm like okay the public is spoken we are robin we are robin in general was a dumb idea for a book let's have an inner city gang of robin supported in the shadows by alfred who gives them like weapons and equipment to fight homeless people because that was the first arc it was just them fighting a bunch of homeless people so weird yeah agreed good call good deep dive by the way um the rest of them i can always just like talk about at length on our own shows infinity crusade so dumb so boring so meandering so jim starland yeah dc versus marvel was really really bad it got you the amalgam universe which i'm not really big fan of but i appreciate that i like it in theory yeah but it's so stupid like the dseabers marvel is like let's let the fans make really bad decisions okay why should we have all the fun yeah although i will say if you ever go back and watch uh stanley interviewed on konobrine he's selling the dc marvel event in that appearance that's kind of fun if you've ever wanted to go back into and read an event that's like really long and really for no reason it exists uh secret wars two is just really really stupid oh yeah if you like the new mutants anything with the true at the end of it what oh i said really any event that has a two at the end of it it's true there are very few uh sequels to comic book events have really really taken off and succeeded in any significant way but secret wars two sucks i mean there's no black as night two no although they did try uh and finally in my list my personal list age of ultron oh again another one i tried to delete from my mind is horrendous it's clown shoes clown shoes it's so dumb it's so like nonsensical it's just like what the crap and it happens to no one you care about because they're all in alternate realities uh by the way benders tried really hard to tell you in interviews and everything like this is the real marv this happens in the real marvel universe well if it doesn't happen if you fix it with time travel then it's an alternate timeline it didn't happen so uh and i loved how benders is like oh peter parker spider-man and dance i was like no he's done because he's happening right now and so they had to do a superior spider-man tie-in where he like retcons that doc ock is pretending to be peter parker i'm like there's no way benders knew that no way yep he wrote his peter parker end of story uh so jumping into the superchats unless there's any others you want to talk about before we jump in just one briefly amazon's attack that's the one that's that's the mean word because i don't like what it did to the amazon's and also this was another one of the many many unnecessary forgettable events that were there in the lead up to countdown and everything and just it just was not a good time it was tedious yeah well yeah wasn't that like the book that was like oh and count it's leading up to countdown which is one of the worst events is all of all time as well yes that too so it's like man this didn't mean anything what it led to didn't mean anything it derailed the characterization of the amazon's and what i hate is that dc ran with that when as a rella got the book and knew if he was like nah the amazon's are still horrible right thanks but they've always been cool though yeah but they're horrible now for no reason well that that suits us rella it also had four runner in it for a little bit to remember four runner yes that big like oh Paul Dini Jimmy paul miaadi co-created character this is the big breakout of this story four runner oh it's not four runners hanging out with onyx and all these other character and tellos and all these other characters that never got started they should make a team of them they really should the forgotten right uh debisheesh mahapra uh mahat mahapatra so civil war two and maybe quit marvelan benis reading comics shouldn't be a feel like a abusive relationship well that news for you buddy uh that's exactly what comic books are i know because i read superman today yeah it's comments will break your heart yep they will two thousands jla active god is basically everyone should oh uh their powers for no reason become real heroes like batman or first respond yes fanfic written by an edgy moody 14 year old yes oh fuck that story to death too for also wonder woman but she's like but what about god clark you're an amazon you've met greek god you've all met gods of other anthons why do you suddenly think that you day oh christian god is hot shit i don't know taylor pester how about the one time dc tried to a wonder woman senator venn amazon's attack well i think we get old talk enough 20 minutes about it boy tretan brown can we count benis as man of steel as an event i don't count it as an event because i think it's just a mini series i just call that like a story because this is supposed to like set up status quo it's not really like what happens also well i mean if we measure events by what happens then none of these books will be on the list list that's true no i i think that's just more like a mini series yeah it really is although you i bet you that benis is chompin at the bit to do a superman events you'll greed and it's it's coming oh i got all benis is coming you wait exactly give some brad field sell lots of back issues are events many of my favorite videos are these bad events you think good or bad events make for better back issues really depends uh depends on what you're looking for if you were looking to like have some fun with some shadon fraud you're gonna love a bad back issues if you want to hear us celebrate a book you're gonna love the good back issues um and that's why i like to mix it up you know we don't we don't our premise isn't like bad comics yeah it's just it's just books your show does both and that's why i like it thank you Preston brian i read a captain america issue 695 704 loved it i think you guys recommended it thanks for that anytime that that was the wait stuff right i think so no wait i don't know i want to say that was in the lead up to 700 before they got a new writer oh yeah yeah okay yes um that's exactly what it was it was the wait run comic goblin i don't know if it's been mentioned yet but uh the one that ruins the universe ultimate ultimate universe but that's hurt really bad yes it did not as bad as ultimate end but just as bad it's actually worse i think it was almost ultimate it was ultimate it was ultimate in between cataclysm and ultimatum secret wars is that's like hickman secret wars but oh i didn't even bother looking at that i'm like no it's sorry it's already over you don't get to end it twice now well i am and here it is so bad heartless bang how do you guys feel that secret empire interesting in the beginning but at the end of it did it really matter i've been carrying a torch for that series for a while in fact i strongly believe in two however many years an fbi thing takes to finish i think people will be able to look at that book with fresh eyes again i think it was too real and hit too close to home for too many people i think it fell during a time when the comic book culture was shifting uh and the youtube comic book culture was also altered like changing and evolving and i think that it suffered from like i think it's suffered from pressure from from from from a from a minority of pressure yeah i i also think too that much like the original civil war i think that's what spancer was trying to tap into he was like no let's talk about something current and topical and you know something that's really gonna get readers passionate oh no they're getting passionate in all the wrong way yes i like it's too passionate type it up oh oh no this is too serious and again too i think a lot of stuff that happened in secret empire he never intended it to go down like that i think the real world got freakyer than comics yeah i think so too uh yeah i don't think um i don't think it matters anymore i think they're gonna sweep it under the rug you're never gonna see that book again it's it's true which again i again you know it's Spencer he's got he's got spider-man imagined spider-man versus evil Steve Rosenberg was writing about it in Punisher so they're not sweeping it that hard i would love that uh mr about it does superman red and blue count as i liked it no it's uh it's it was more of a status quo it's a thing that was happening it was a thing that was happening like electric blue superman like that's not really an event it's just like for a while he was this like what issues will you collect we collect all the justice like this where he was also like you know what i'm doing this uh Kevin Kruger how about the two granddaddy events millennium by d.c.
in secret wars two by marvel crap books we talked about millennium and secret wars two but how about them they are bullshit i will say that not a good time mr. about it 2009 uh 2009 ravage awesomely bad or good uh non-event uh horrible and pointless also uh hyped for no reason yeah although i was i think stan wrote ravage i don't remember if like i think he wrote like at least the first issue with not like i think he created him or something he has something intrinsic ties to ravage i thought of another good one it was new 52 it was panda it led right into forever evil but it wasn't forever evil what was it trinity war yes trinity war oh my it sucked and it sucked over three books yes it did it's just which justice league was having a hard time justice league america was good because john's was writing it was a fresh team but oh man they hit the brakes so hard on the one good book to go all in on train anymore and talk about another thing that didn't matter ultimately big time oh i love i love that moment in uh god what is she was it where pandaora's just like running and then she just explodes that was a d.c. universe rebirth number one thank you yeah where the universe is like no more of you dr. man has i try to clean house you go away you go away you go away pandaora but i'm so important i have so many more stories to tell not for me god they tried they gave her a book they gave trinity of sin a book they tried so hard to make pandaora thing i'll stop you plenty of female characters you can do something with don't push characters like that uh lazarus contract says mason zero with knee cast momentum yeah oh yeah absolutely c lazarus contract to me started strong but in the end it ended up meaning nothing and in fact when they even talked to priest later he's like yeah they made me call it lazarus contract anymore and call it that ah yep because that thing the lazarus contract doesn't mean anything in the story it's literally a conversation that robin and desstroke have one time that doesn't even come back and again want to talk about damein being a dick and then knee capping his characterization i'm gonna punch flash so hard i'm gonna give him a pacemaker that sucks i remember that happening like god damn it when people ask what's like priest why the hell did you do that damein's not like that anymore it's like i don't know that well i don't know that base was like i can't read everything i thought he was a dick i thought people liked him because he was a dick right he's not redhood jr although we should be oops my bad taylor pester batman legacy and cataclysm no man's land is great but all the lead-ins not really yep nope you are totally right no man's land isn't as great and everybody remembers it's really long it's only an event because it was like just three years of batman yep that's just what was going on i was gonna crap in there you know i read all those books and i gotta tell you no man's land is a cool concept with some really execution and some awesome moments but there's like 50 issues in there and it's a well people keep going back to whether you're the third dark night movie whether you're the arkam movies it's like yeah what if we cut Gotham off from everywhere else it had cool gangs yeah what if superman couldn't go to Gotham like that's basically what those are i mean like by the way like legacy not great cataclysm again not great i was trying to think of what's the one uh contagion yeah you me and jason talked about that on this show one time actually yeah yeah it's fine but not great yeah but but no man's land better but like i said not only events are awesome but it battles for the cowl i remember the artwork being really cool for it and we got some cool moments and tie-ins yeah ultimately i think it was a waste of time i mean it was just it was just a stop gap until we knew we knew he was coming back yeah i think it's about as awesome as who will wield the shield that too it's like we know he's coming back i think wield the shield is literally if without battle for the cowl there is no wield the shield hmm i did like the secret sex tie into battle for the cowl though where it's deadshot bane uh they go to Gotham city and with no batman around they basically just end up keeping peace in the streets one night just because yes and that's cool it is um so yeah that's that's our list uh obviously we left out a bunch of stuff uh so please in the comments let us know what your least favorite event is that we didn't mention on this list and maybe we'll do a sequel to this one because uh there's there's so much more you know we didn't get a chance to talk about a lot of stuff and i'm looking forward to getting into it but uh we can easily have a volume two for this and i'm sure we will give it some time and we'll have more bat events to talk about yep yep so we will see you guys next time with another episode else world exchange of course check us out here on comicpop youtube.com slash comic pop subscribe check us out and we will see you next time here on the else world exchange i'm sau and i'm Joel so long everybody bye bye