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All right, at least we just do. All right, let's do it. All right, all right. And I'm gonna talk about nostalgia.
And today's topic is about nostalgia. Specifically, whether it is good, bad, or maybe someplace in between for the comic book industry. I'm gonna hinge it specifically on the DC rebirth event, and how it kind of harkens back to nostalgia, and how the whole damn thing hinges on readers' expectations and tapping into the 1845 year old demographic. It is something that we all feel for one thing or another comic book fans, especially.
As a veteran comic fan, I can tell you that I have nostalgia for things I didn't even experience. Because growing up, they would always, these comments would refer to events that happened decades before I got there. And as a reader, it's funny, I hear about how everyone saw new readers feel like they're left out. They always feel like there's no good place to get their footing.
And I feel like they're left out of the industry, they're left out of the world. And so they need a good jumping on point. For me, I always saw that as a challenge. I was like, I want to be part of that universe.
I want to be part of this world, this greater tap is where they keep referring to. And then when I would find it, because it was at a time when all comics kind of similarly were similarly written, it didn't feel dated. It wasn't like, okay, go out and read about it for 30 years ago. And it's like, oh, I am very aware that I'm reading a book 30 years ago.
She willers. And then I'm going to transition from maybe some of the campier or less serious. To more modern, more modern. Expectations and style writing, definitely.
So for me, it was always a challenge. But I definitely loved the nostalgia. Though I must say, I feel like when I was reading books, more things were being created than referred to. Does that make sense?
Yeah. I feel like that's difficult to quantify. But not having read comics at that time, it could be a word for it. That could be the case.
Yeah, that's how it felt. Yeah. I mean, it could be that it was just like it was rehashing old stuff. But even if it was rehashing, I feel like it was clothed in originality.
And it wasn't celebrating its nostalgia. It wasn't like, hey, remember these books from 30 years ago? As compared to now. As compared to now.
Because now, the comic book industry feels like every time that they try to be original, they react and go, oh, well, they didn't want that. So here's what you remember. That's how it feels. OK.
But when does nostalgia go from being nostalgia to just being lazy? Right. Or pandering. Or both.
Yeah. Well, and I mean, to me, the potential drawback for nostalgia or relying too heavily on it is what you already mentioned. It makes it more impenetrable for the reader. So I owe it for the new reader.
So I can imagine it's kind of like that they're doing it for the bottom line. Like most of the people buying comics are people who already read comics. So it's like, well, we can make more money if we sell. If we pander, too.
If we pander, we can give the people what they want. Or what they think to be more generous with it. But is that costing you in the long term? That's the question.
Isn't this algebra good or bad? How many stories can you really continue to tell before you do have to rehash things, before you have to restart a universe, before you have to sell origin stories again, before you have to try and bring new people on board? It's a good idea. I would counter that by saying, like, how many times can you tell Spider-Man's origin before everyone is like, we get it?
Well, especially cinematic-wise. Right. And so from that perspective, it's not lazy. It's just there's only so many finite number of ways to tell story.
Right. But I think that there's a distinct difference between nostalgia and a reboot. Yeah. Yeah.
Well, look at the N 52. Pretty much in DC's history. And while DC's re-birth is selling well, capitalizing on nostalgia, A, it's still set in the N. 52.
And B, it isn't selling quite as well as N. So you're saying that DC's re-birth, you feel more depends on re-doing stuff from past, whereas N 52, even though this borrowing something, it was more different from the story lines that it come before? Yeah. I think N 52 was more different than the stories that come before.
Although, I got to argue, like, it was more of an opportunity, I think, for them to be like, let's do some of these things over again. And I got to tell you, fan reaction, I was most deafening when it was referring to or capitalizing on something that came before. And they were like, oh, they were referring to this? And they're positive.
No, I don't think anyone was like, they're doing the thing again. That thing I liked, why would they do that? Unless it was like that in Origin, which I completely did. Right.
Maybe the issue isn't if nostalgia is good, maybe if the pursuit of nostalgia is good, because when nostalgia is done correctly, I think it tends to always be positive. I think it's always something that people enjoy. The thing about nostalgia is, your nostalgia for you enjoy it. It's something that's like- Do you remember it fondly?
Exactly. Though, if I were to go back and watch like Thundercats, for example, it's horrible. Not exactly, but maybe the issue is when a company pursues nostalgia incorrectly, and it doesn't capture that moment and instead just feels lazy, and that's where you run into trouble is the attempt at it. Well, is DC Rebirth really just capitalizing on the image of nostalgia, or are they trying to recapture the essence of it?
Would we say that they're doing a good job of- Go ahead. So is DC Rebirth really just taking nostalgia and saying, hey, we're going to slap the characters in some of their old costumes and make them feel like they're old selves? But we're suddenly telling the stories. Or is it really?
They're just rehashing some of the stories. Oh no, it's your first point, which is, I think, a well-executed version of that. But I got to tell you, DC Rebirth starts, and it's hinged on, what's the big thing everyone's talking about DC Rebirth? It's the Watchmen connection.
And they did new Watchmen stories, the original new Watchmen stories, which while they put all their effort into them, were not very well received, overall, by and large. There were a couple of gems, but overall, most people were like, rejected them. And so it wasn't as good as the source material. Now we're going to do more Watchmen.
And we're going to tie it. We're going to do something new with it. But we're still going to capitalize on this book from 1986. Right.
But I don't know how to count that as nostalgia. In a sense, that is almost something new. That connecting bridge is something they've never done before. Yeah, but the visuals of like, oh, Dr.
Manhattan, there he is. I saw him. Like, I remember when he was in the future. Right.
But like, is it the anticipation of the whole story? It's the anticipation of seeing Dr. Manhattan and I guess the nostalgia of that. Or is it really the anticipation of seeing him interact with beloved characters such as Superman and Batman?
I mean, that's definitely what it is. I think that everyone just wants to know. Since everyone thinks they know Dr. Manhattan, they just can't wait to see him interact with the universe.
No. For me, I think that DC's attempt at nostalgia, I think, is best exemplified in Superman from Reverb. Yes. That for me is the like, OK, we heard you.
And though people do enjoy you from DC Superman, there is a contingent out there who truly missed it. And prefer it. Yeah, absolutely. But there's another contingent who was like, that's not my Superman.
I want the guy I remember. I think that's the way we could definitely pinpoint the nostalgia factor. And I was going to point out all the characters we could probably discuss as well. The Flash, Green Lantern, Wonder Woman, in terms of her origins.
Batman is like, well, he does it all. Everything that you liked happened and everything that you and we'll just keep doing. We'll just keep getting more stories. So we can tell whatever we want.
But I think in terms of Flash, particularly, there's an outcry. Oh, yeah. DC Reverb, like, that first issue when we bring back Wally West was a big response too. But that was more like old readers and their perceived majority.
Yes. But I still think that's nostalgia, though. That's DC's perception of this knowledge. Okay, we hear that people miss this character.
Even though we're attempting to build new characters, we're attempting to build new stories. It's clearly you want this. We're not just going to throw the other one out. But we're going to bring you back to remember those stories.
Remember when we had Wally West and he was running around and he was doing all kinds of things? Yeah. I like that because I remember it. And that's not saying it's necessarily incorrect, especially with how they handled it.
In which they're like, no, it's just like lots of flashes. They didn't just like, man, get out of here. So the question then is, is that a, you know, people like that, people want that, but not all people. That's a new reader.
Is that alienating? Because you're getting this moment in the book and you're revealing like, what? Who is that? I just heard a reading here.
Isn't there already a Wally West? Right. What's funny though, is in a weird way that like this nostalgia factor, right, is almost like a trial of fire for these new readers. You know, like those who have never experienced a crisis before, those who don't understand like the intense changes that can come within like a shared universe such as this.
You know, this is like a, hey, listen, you gotta get used to this. Yeah, cause your favorite thing that was brand new to you, it's going to go away. And you're replaced by something from 30 years. Right.
Also your favorite thing happens to be something that causes change all the time. Right. Yeah, that's true. Also critical plot points are not going to make any sense to you.
You're not steeped in 70 years of comic lore. Right. And unfortunately when it's not incorporated into the story and they say, oh, we'll just check out this old issue. Or remember when this happened back blah blah blah.
That is incredibly alienating. I think I always thought that as a sign post, it's better. I would have something just happening. I would have something to add to the old question.
That's a reference. What should be explained in the story? If it's good storytelling, then it should be explained in what's going on. I think that's a fine line that you walk there because then those who know that are just like, oh my God, you're just wasting panel space trying to explain to this contingent of readers.
I don't even know necessarily exists. At least with the box nowadays, you go online, you can look up on Wikipedia or whatever, like a quick summary of what happened and be like, okay, all right, if I want to go grab that, maybe I will. Right. I have a little context now.
A little context, but at the same time, if you want to read a book, if you have your issue in front of you and in order to understand it, you have to go someplace else, that's detracting from the story. I guess, I mean, like my phone's in my hand at all times and I often even read comics digitally. Yeah. So like, I can easily switch from one to the other if I really need to know something.
I would say right now, at this point in history, it's the easiest it's the easiest thing to go back and look up stuff. Yeah. So. Yeah, for me, when I was growing up and it was just comic book stores and it's had, and they did this a lot more back then than they do now, where they would say like, see issue like 268 for what he's talking about.
And then I'd be like, okay, when I go to the comic book store and I look for 268 and if it was a critical issue, it was usually like Mark higher price. So it was a little harder to get, but then it was for me, it was like, oh, I'm all, but I want to know what happens. It was like a treasure hunt. Yes.
It was like a picture. It was. And like, and that sounds kind of silly. But also, and it is alienating in that regard because like if I'm a kid, I don't know, $8 to spend on a single back issue, that sucks.
Yeah. But now I can get it for like two bucks online. I mean, now it's like, I wish that there were more like annotations in the books that like referred to things that you could go back and get because it's easier than ever. Yeah.
It's easier than ever. Yeah. I mean, I can imagine like when I was the age that you were when you started comics, to me, I wouldn't. You were like his kid.
Yeah. So I'm like, screw to 68. This is ridiculous. I'm not going to put this much effort into trying to figure this out.
I was a huge star wars fan. I was going to say like that stuff will be crazy. See now that's not war's novels. They're making references to other novels I hadn't read and to comic books that I was not aware of.
Yeah. And it was like maddening and it was almost like I almost gave up because it was so frustrating because there were so many like plop ones that hinged on it. So comics would seem like would be like 10 times. Oh, it's like, it's that exact thing.
Yeah. But now I Google everything. So now I don't know if I was a kid going up now, maybe I would be more willing to go to the second nature at that point. I don't know if that is, boom.
There is a kind of one. I think there's also another element to nostalgia that I wouldn't discuss before we kind of wrap this whole thing up. But not just in like direct character, like you know, we change the character's identity, like you know, whatever. I think also DC's been experimenting.
I was going to point Superman in particular in the feel of stories. Like we've seen Superman and action comics go through these arc sorts. It's like this is very reminiscent of like early Superman, like maybe a little bit cheesy, a little bit Americana. The last two stories, the last two issues of action comics for example were very steeped and like old, but not like in a, like remember this, you know, it was more like, it was like it was written back.
It was like they found a script from the New Year's. And which was a little weird. Yeah. Yeah.
To me, that's a very blatant and obvious example of the appeal to this. It's the entire style. Oh, and the art style was also reflected by the time. I'm not going to tell you, like it was kind of hard to read.
Yeah. Like it was especially in the context of, of that series to take us to hard left backwards. It was kind of weird. Action.
Yeah. So be reading like the current Superman and then go back to action comics and be like, well, this is just be reading action. Just be reading action comics and for two issues. It's, it just feels like a book from 20 years ago.
Yeah. And I'm like, because I remember books for 20 years ago, I was like, yeah, right. But like, I was like, yeah, all right. But like, I can't even imagine if I was like 12 and I just got in like this Superman.
I think I've gotten all figured out. And I was like, well, I just feel so old and weird. Yeah. At least I was aware.
Yeah. But at the same time, like I was like, whoa, like I just came out of nowhere, but you know, being where I am, I guess I, I understood the appeal of it. I understand like what they were attempting to capture. Well, good for whoever was doing this.
Very much so. And then I just my monogal and, you know, I just rolled my brandy. But I seem to do it in other like stories as well. And in very positive ways where you at the end of it go like, wow, this felt like a really classic insert character story.
Yeah. Like there's not something I can just like point to within the story that maybe feel that way. It was just something about the overall feel. Yeah.
But I do wonder I have this complaint about comics constantly. Would it be better if there was some sort of indication of it, especially when it's particularly blatant, where there's a couple issues that are totally different than the rest of the series, that there's something they are to explain that this is going to be a little different. Right. So that you're not just like, what are they doing?
Right. If you don't have that background, you understand exactly what they're doing immediately, you know, to me that would be helpful. I often complain that they don't have DC doesn't put little explanations at the beginning. Yeah.
Yeah. The marble page has that one page that explains this. Just a little bit. Just a little context.
Yeah. And there was a couple of stories that it just felt like a really down home style arc. And for me, again, that captures that nostalgia, that feeling of like, I remember like old Superman, like this is part of his character, right? But I like to think that for the new person coming into this, the person who maybe read the new 52 one and is now here, or hasn't read that at all, and it's just, all right, what's this all about?
I kind of have an idea of Superman. I like to think that if it was effective back when they're going to die, then it's probably effective now to them as well, if done properly. Like if I'm feeling like that nostalgia and that part of it where I'm just like, wow, this just gives me a little bit of a classic story that like they will have that feeling of, wow, this is really cool. Like there's like something about it that like they might attach to it.
And like again, it's nostalgia done well. Yeah. I hope that's the case. I like to think that classic stories that I'm nostalgic for are classics for a reason.
I mean, I always cite like what's a timeless book versus like an older book. And that obviously that's relevant and it's in the behind the folder. Like some people don't think you're one is as relevant as I do. Right.
And so it's, but for me, I'm like, well, that, you know, that's contextual. But, and you could argue that like it's nostalgia that makes me feel like it might be timeless or like, I'm like, no, it's timeless. You know, like, I mean, I feel nostalgic for it. Like there's a nostalgia has both good and bad connotations to it.
And I think that it's actually kind of like fascinating because like nostalgia makes you, you know, feel good about something that happened in the past. And maybe you shouldn't go back and revisit it and just enjoy the feeling. You know, like my thunder cats and algae. So the danger of going back through and seeing it through your eyes now.
Yeah. I mean, and maybe putting it under the scrutiny of modern sensibilities is a, is a problem. I was thinking about the tie in with, with Watchmen. Remember the cologne that white industries created?
Watchmen is nostalgia. Yes. And how Alan Moore, within the pages of Watchmen warns against like the, the alluring fragrance of nostalgia and how it's really a cover all for like your scent. Yeah.
I think that's kind of like relevant today, which is kind of iconic. The 30 years old is still relevant today. And warns about nostalgia and of itself. And the DC is not only using those tropes, but using that very text to gain its, you know, text often considered sacred.
Right. And it touches all over it. Yeah. Not only touches it, but like rips it open and grabs the carrots and stuff.
And then the universe that they have no business being in. Or some people, I am excited about it. Well, despite the fact that I think it might be a sacred text. Here's a question that I want to bring up real quick.
The idea of nostalgia is something that is old that we as revisit. Right. What if it's something that has been continued? Just like a lot of the comics that were reading, they have been written continuously throughout the year.
Yeah. Like Marlo's one continuity. Exactly. So does that feel less nostalgic because you have been getting story after story consistently.
You've been growing with it versus a story that is stopped. That is old. Yeah. That is then restarted.
Yes. I find that I'm nostalgic for full stories in DC than I am from Marvel, but there are runs that I am definitely nostalgic for. Certainly the writers are nostalgic because they want to go back to when Spider-Man was a little boy. Yeah.
And that's what's interesting is that when people who were readers or were creatives and then become editors or people in positions of power and they have influence over the books themselves, their nostalgia will influence the run. And fundamentally alter the forward momentum that that run might have or maybe give it the shot in the arm it needs. I think that some nostalgia can be used for good, but I wouldn't rely on it. You don't want to be a crush.
Exactly. So is that your final say on that? Yeah. I say that nostalgia should be, you know, I think that we leave the password is, but it's always nice to take a look once in a while.
I wouldn't use it as my driving force for creative endeavors. Right. That's fair. I would agree with that.
So with the Ellemore perspective. Yeah. I don't know how my cynical Ellemore is, but he's like, it's gross and you're covered in it. Yeah.
But there's certainly a reason to be wary. I think to the extent that it stifles the creation of new ideas, new directions, it's bad. It's over-reliance. As with many things, too much of a good thing.
Yeah. Obviously moderation is obviously more. Personally, I feel like nostalgia has its place. You should definitely look back on things with fun memories, but the idea of a story and character growing and moving forward is always better than being held in the past.
I think nostalgia is nice where it is, but in terms of moving forward, let the future take its course and let the characters and the stories have their own impact, create something new and see what comes from it. Even if it's not great, that's a learning experience and you can build off of that better than just relying on the past. Well, I think that capturing the sensation or the emotion that you once had once again within a book, whether or not actually just re-hashing something old, but that feeling, that emotion, I think that's positive. I think that's something that, again, well done could actually bring new readers into the fold in a sense, like capturing that feeling.
I also think that nostalgia is one of those things that everyone will change their opinion on as they grow older. And so the opinions I have now, if you asked me five years ago, it would be different. If you asked me five years from now, it would be different once again, because the fact that it's funny, nostalgia is ever-present but always changing. I think what's most effective is when you're not taking ideas for sale or characters or images, but you're actually taking an emotional connection to something from the past that can be more subtle and it lets you be more creative.
That's what Reber actually feels like. I like the point of being made also where you said that even if it's bad, it's still a learning experience. Don't be afraid to tell us absolutely. Yes, absolutely.
Well, even with that action, comics were run way. It was talking about that. It did evoke that emotional. I felt like I was reading a book from the 90s.
Exactly. But if someone knew came into that, they would have that same experience. You'd be like, what? But it would be like that same feeling that you had even back then, except the fact that in the 90s you were steeped in the idea of this school.
Yeah. I think that's the idea. Emotions don't change. Ideas can, but emotions are pretty much always a constant.
Yeah. But you feel about something. It can change. Certainly we're going to feel differently about something that's nostalgic or representing an earlier time than a kid with no context for what that is.
They know it feels different, but they don't necessarily know what it's referencing. It's evoking a cultural moment that they have no context for. Right. But in that specific instance, they would probably be having a very similar reaction to the person who remembers that moment where being like, oh, why are you doing that?
Oh, why are you doing that? I don't even know. You know what I mean? Yeah.
It's a very similar reaction, but for different reasons. Yes. Yeah. Again, that's in a way it's weirdly done right where two people are having similar reaction to something, without the context.
I think that's the mark of what time was work. Dark Knight Returns when it came out, it blew the doors off of the character because everyone was so used to Adam West Batman and Batman being a low selling commodity and people being like, oh shit. Yeah. And when you're like 13 in the year 2011, you're reading Dark Knight Returns, you don't have the context for how crappy Batman was and how worthless he was.
He was personally breaking it. But you also are like, I've never seen Batman like this. Even now, like as much of a grizzled old man as Batman is, they still can't do it. Well, some of the history is given in that book.
The surroundings really do add so much to who Batman is in that story that you don't need to know a whole lot of what happened beforehand. You don't need to know about it. Oh, yeah. That's why it works.
Yeah. But the impact, the cultural impact, not aware of reading. No, but I think that the impact on the reader is seismically similar. And if it isn't like culturally the same.
Yeah. And that's when you have the time to work. That's a different conversation. Absolutely.
But let us know what you guys think in the comments down below. We'd love to hear your thoughts and we'll see you guys next time with all new episodes of Comic-Con on Sal. And that's what I'm saying. And that's what I'm saying.
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