Hi, and welcome to La Vie Attachée. Change your thoughts, change your life. I'm Peggy McKnight. In today's episode, I am continuing on with my employment observations from the UK and the US.
So having lived in the UK for just about or over slightly over 30 years and now relocating and moving back to the United States, it has been a real eye opener as to what goes on with employment, the whole process of applying for jobs, let alone employment law. Now, I just want to also clarify something I said in yesterday's podcast, and I really don't want to give people the impression that I'm very militant about work. I think that rules and regulations wrapped in the guise of policies and procedures are there for a very good reason. They are helping the employees as well as the customers, and they're for protection as well, not because they want to be very militant about how they operate.
I would say that in the United States, the impression that I get now, being away for 30 years, all of a sudden it seems like everybody is very free and easy, meaning it's a little too liberal. The impression I get with employers is, yeah, do whatever you want, but as long as I want you to do that. So how can I validate that? With regards to unions, for example, I think unions do have their place, but I'm not a fan.
I'll be honest. I'll be very blunt. I'll just throw it out there. I am not a fan of unions, only because of my personal experience.
Yes, I tried to join a union, but discovered that they really weren't in the process, or not the process, but the business, if you like, for want for a better phrase, of supporting their union members. I needed support at the time, and they veiled. They weren't there. They weren't interested whatsoever.
They just towed the party line when it suited them. But I have seen other occasions that they're very, and I do think that unions are very militant in this respect, in the fact that when the leader of a union especially doesn't want to do something, they know they've got all the power. And I really don't agree with that, because that really throws a spanner in the works, if you like, as they say in the UK. Or, well, I think a wrench in the works doesn't really have the same kind of punch or impact to it, so I quite like spanner in the works.
Anyway, so the union leader, if they don't like something, they will cause mayhem and make life very difficult for employers. And that is something I do not agree with. I am very much of my person. My being is very much, let's be all-inclusive.
Let's include everyone. And that doesn't mean to say that I'm liberal. It just means that everyone should be considered, especially when you're a leader, you should consider other people's points of views. It doesn't mean to say that you have to take that on board, or do what they say, especially if they're junior staff, but they are entitled to their opinions.
You want to listen to these people. You know, they are, after all, your main source of expense with an organization. So if you don't treat your employees right, well, you're off to a losing battle there right from the get-go. But yeah, that's my thoughts on unions, and I just wanted to clarify, I'm not militant when it comes to work.
I just firmly believe that there are policies and procedures, aka rules and regulations, that are meant to guide everyone. Because if we did not have rules and regulations or policies and procedures, anarchy would take over, and you would literally have lots of alpha males and females trying to battle it out for jockeying for position in the organization. And sometimes, especially with current events, it does seem like it's playing out right before our eyes on a national scale, and it really disappoints me. But anyway, there's a lot of disappointments at the moment.
So what can we do with regards to employment observations? I think the application process on the main is pretty much exactly the same as it is in the UK and the US. You have to either send in your resume or what they call a CV in the UK, and you have to send them a cover letter. That's pretty standard, straightforward.
But the distinct impression I'm getting over here in this country in the US is a lot of employers want applications filled in. And quite frankly, what a pain in the backside. It takes an awfully long time for employees or potential employees, you know, really good, talented people, you know, to really spend their time churning over and chewing over these blasted applications that quite frankly, I often wonder if anyone on the interview panel, let alone when they receive the application actually really takes note of them. Now we all know, or maybe we don't, but I heard, gosh, probably about five years ago, the idea of an algorithm had been bantered about an awful lot.
And I thought, what the heck is an algorithm? And then they explained to me that computers do an awful lot of the sifting work. And I would say yes and no. Having seen inside information on my last employer, that is definitely not the case.
They do not let a computer sift through it. They sift through it themselves. But if they're getting hundreds of thousands because they are a top university, they're not going to waste an awful lot of time with the application process. So you're lucky if their eyeballs hit your page and something catches their eye about what you've said or put down on that piece of paper, then you're lucky.
It's a real crapshoot at the end of the day. But with algorithms, I think that's good. However, is there any training out there for this? Does anyone know specifically how to talk to these algorithms?
Because I sure would love to know. I genuinely would love to know. I think marrying work with computers is so exciting, especially when you can work smarter rather than harder. I'm a really big fan of letting computers take a lot of that work and alleviate a lot of that work and burden off of people.
Now, are we seeing that? I don't know. Because even now, with regards to the coronavirus, I'm hearing an awful lot in the news that companies are having to streamline and become lean. Well, lean, folks, newsflash, it doesn't mean slash jobs and get rid of people.
Lean, especially if it's worked properly, it means let's look at our processes and see how we can streamline everything to make it more efficient. Then, if we need to let people go, we will do. Now, this is something that I have found that is very similar on both sides of the pond, which is if an employer does not like you and no matter how good you are and you do your job properly, if they don't like you, they're going to get rid of you come hell or high water. They will find a way.
They are cunning and crafty and nefarious enough to be able to make that happen that you are no longer with the company. So, let's just put all the facts on the table, folks, and just accept it. So, that's the application process in a nutshell with regards to the differences between the UK and the US. So, on the surface, the application process is exactly the same.
The only distinct difference is there are more applications that are required over in the United States versus the UK, and it's called a CV rather than a resume. So, that's just a real high-level overview of that. When my observations when it comes to job titles, now, this is an interesting one, and certainly from an observation point of view, what I am getting the distinct impression is everyone likes to fluff up and bump up the job title when, in actual fact, they're looking for someone who just mops the floors, for example. Don't be calling them a domestic manager or domestic decorator, but director.
Well, they could also decorate as well. But, yeah, it's just interesting how they really fluff up or pump up the title of something when, in actual fact, let's call a spade a spade, people. You know, it is what it is. You want a floor cleaner.
You want a janitor. Just say that. Don't be asking and, you know, thinking that under the illusion or the guise of someone is getting a director's position when, in actual fact, the only thing they're directing is the number of mops and the number of light bulbs that go in and out of the storeroom. So, that has been a really interesting one, and it's very noticeable here in the United States where they seem to over-inflate or pump up the job title to try and get a lot of good candidates.
But, in actual fact, they're getting very different candidates. So, it really makes me wonder, well, where did they go to school? Okay, they might not have gone to school, certainly for learning about job titles. I don't believe that that is taught anywhere.
But, equally, where's the HR department? If the company is that small, they probably won't have one, and it'll be down to each individual department head to figure out HR policies and let alone the hiring process and all that. So, yeah, that's been a really interesting one. Now, with interviews, again, this has been a real eye-opener, and I'm left speechless apart from, say, what?
Case in point, just recently, and I do have a fear that this could be happening in the UK as well. I just don't have direct experience of this, apart from maybe one occasion, but it didn't happen to me directly. So, I will explain that one. Basically, an organization had gone through a number of changes and mergers, and, you know, people being people, they are human, they have feelings, they have their own opinions, they will either agree and be on board with these mergers and changes or they won't.
Now, one individual decided, I've had enough of this, I'm out of here, I'm leaving. They threw them all a big, you know, going away leaving party, which was phenomenal, and there they went. Not more than a month later, they were in touch with a very senior individual within the organization, and lo and behold, they got their job back. And I was just floored by this information because, well, I've never experienced anything like that.
Nor, well, is that appropriate or legal? I suppose it's legal if they're advertising, but at that stage, I can't really remember if they were advertising. All I know is that someone had been brought in from an agency to fill in the gap for the time being. So yeah, I think the job had gone out for advertising.
But instead of advertising and hiring people, they just in one fell swoop took this person back. No hiring, no job interviews, no let's be seen to be doing this legally. And I really don't think that they could have done that. But for whatever reason, you know, well, you don't argue with directors, do you?
They basically said yes, and the person came back. And therefore, I think this is very dangerous and for everyone to, you know, be very aware of whether you're on the receiving end, i.e. you're an employee and watching this happen and play out in front of your eyes. Or if you're an employer, you need to be careful about this one because there is, you know, employment laws there for a reason.
Although I do wonder and question seriously how many employment laws are actually in the United States that protect employees. But that's for another time. But with this individual, what I discovered was they basically were very full of themselves, meaning they felt a lot more self-important and started asserting their own opinions where they really did not belong and really started to run the show. And that's the danger you pose when you decide to take somebody back who officially left the organization.
They volunteered to leave. And all of a sudden they're coming back. And well, what did you expect? They weren't going to be, you know, this timid individual.
Of course, they're going to be full of themselves and full of their own importance. And naturally, they've got the ear of this director that took them back and said yes to having them back on board. So they're going to be whispering in their ear about all sorts, about all sorts of people. Whether you've crossed this individual or not, if they don't like you, all they have to do is say to this director, I don't like that person.
And you're out. And I've also seen that as well. And it's really sad, really, really sad. But again, these organizations or the people in these powerful positions really do know how to play the game.
And it's just really, really sad. But with regards to job interviews, what I have also witnessed and experienced is when you're in an interview, and I would challenge everyone to do something along these lines. You don't have to use my words per, you know, perbatim or verbatim, but I would definitely challenge an employee, a potential employer, when you've walked into the interview room, and they've gone around the room explaining who is there on the panel, and they announce this individual or this individual even announces themselves as someone who will be working for you. Well, hang on a minute, I'm here at interview, I don't know you, and you're my junior staff, and I'm going to be your boss, but yet you're interviewing me.
That doesn't happen. I'm sorry, people, that just does not happen. There is a huge conflict of interest. And that is a major, major red flag.
If that ever happens to you, I want you to say something along the lines of calling out the interview and say what's going on here. Why is somebody that I will be managing in the interview asking me questions? How can I manage people who are undermining me because they feel like they have a lot of power? Again, it's all about power.
There is a theme here, people. Power is dangerous in the wrong hands. And individuals who are junior to you on your interview panel, they are either A, going for the job themselves, which, well, they shouldn't be on the interview panel to begin with because they have privy information, or B, they just want to hold that in their mind and call you out on it or complain to the other people in the interview panel because they're all senior people, and hey, I was invited in, and they like me, they trust me, they value my opinion. Uh-uh.
It does not happen, people. So call them out on it. Just say, what's going on here? Why is this person in the interview panel?
Just be as blunt as that. Or maybe even keep them off guard because there is no point in you wasting your energy, your valuable energy. You've taken probably half a day at best case scenario, if maybe two days, filling out their blasted, stupid application form just to get invited in for interview. So if this organization is worth their salt and their worth, they will be respectful of those positions that they want to hire for.
And that mark of respect, they don't have to say, I respect you, but demonstrating that they respect the position that they're hiring for means that they will have no junior staff involved because it has nothing to do with them. They will end up with the candidate that they've decided to take on board. Because what else does that say about the organization? It says, I'm your leader, but I can't make a decision.
So I need you, junior Joe and Jane, to come into this interview and give me your opinion because I can't make up my mind. Nobody needs to be working for an organization like that, people. Absolutely no one. You need to know where your boundaries are.
And as far as I'm concerned, an employer or a future employer has overstepped their boundaries and the mark by inviting this junior staff member into the interview. It should never happen. And I have heard a number of occasions when this has happened to people. And I would invite you to just stand up and say, I don't think you're taking this interview process seriously or you're not taking me seriously or something else is going on here.
You know, you can be as confrontational as that, or you can find better words that are a little bit more diplomatic to, you know, really resonate with them that, hang on a minute, I know what you're doing here and I don't like it. You know, it also sets up a really good tone for you to be strong enough to set your own personal boundaries to really find out, okay, let's see if I can flesh out what's going on here. here and ultimately employers and employees for that matter will really reveal themselves um it might not be immediately but over time they really will reveal themselves now with regards to the interview process it is a tricky one because ultimately when you you take a job you're really excited you you feel good that you answered all of the questions really well and when they hire you you think oh fantastic this is great but then when something else happens no more than well gosh no less than four three or four months down the road somebody else is hired into the organization when you thought you were in a management position and did all the hirings or firings for that matter within your department and you see your senior manager stepping in and taking people on board and it's caught you off guard that you never even thought that i didn't even realize that we had a position available that again is another red flag that some pretty dirty tricks are going on within the organization so what can you do about it unfortunately there really is nothing you can do about it you can go complain to hr but hr are always always always going to support the senior manager unless of course again it goes back down to power if the hr department have had their eye on the senior manager and don't really like them or their performance this will be another excuse for them to release that senior manager but rarely does that happen i have always experienced that senior managers i've witnessed well that's my experience i've witnessed a lot of senior managers get rid of people because they just don't like them they're you know they come up with some lame excuse like we're going through a restructure and your surplus to requirements or whatever else that they can grasp straws at it's just really it's really quite disheartening when things like that go on in an organization but you know what folks you have to be battle ready for it you have to toughen yourself up to expect you know things to not go smoothly and when they don't go smoothly how do you handle it it's really as simple as that how are you going to handle it that's what you need to figure out but going back to the interview process that's been a real eye-opener seeing a number of junior staff invited into the interviews that should never be allowed let alone happen within any organization and i think quite frankly if it is happening they've already got this individual earmarked for the position or some other excuse that they're coming up with us to the reasons why this junior member of staff needs to be on the interview panel it's just really very strange very odd and all i would say is run for the hills if you're in an interview and you see someone who is junior on the panel run for the hills folks just just go it's not even worth your time and effort you've already spent enough of it trying to get to the stage of interview to dazzle them with what you can do what you can bring to the table and if they're going to insult you by bringing in a junior member of staff to the panel especially without any explanation as to why they are there and they've got to come up with a pretty bloody good reason as to why that junior member of staff is there then i say run for the hills absolutely so advertising when they are ready for someone basically a mind or place so what do i mean by advertising so it works both ways in the uk and the us when a position becomes available legally it doesn't matter whether somebody has been filling in the position for one week one month one day one year doesn't matter how long that individual has been covering that position legally an employer needs to advertise for it now within the uk you can get away with hiring someone on a temporary basis for say a year and then you have to offer them that individual that position right there and then so for them to work around this and i'm sure it applies the same way in the united states for them to work around it they will advertise sooner rather than later in order to see what other candidates are out there and give everyone a fair shot so with regards to advertising it does really feel like sometimes that they're just going through the motions because hey we like this individual who is now either stepped up within the organization which is often the case or has come in from an agency and we really like them they get along well with everyone we want to keep them they will basically go through the motion of advertising because legally they have to be seen to be doing the right things and giving everyone a fair shot but they know damn well pardon my french they know damn well who they want in place so again it's just another time wasting factor and there i would have to say that i probably would support an organization because being on the receiving end as a hiring manager the last thing i want to do is advertise to the world because i then have to invite a number of people in for interview interview all of them knowing in the back of my mind i'm comparing all of those candidates to this one and i will ask things in such a way that will lead me to back to the same person that i want in place so you could say it's fiddling things or it's becoming biased and yeah absolutely but i would challenge who isn't biased who doesn't judge everybody does it it's within our nature you might think that you are not a biased person or not a judgmental person but at the end of the day there will be a little glimmer or a little flash that streaks across your brain where you do judge someone or become biased towards an individual it happens it's human nature so why go through the whole process of giving other people the opportunity for interview and keeping their hopes up high thinking oh i've got a real chance here going damn well i'm not hiring interview i'm hiring this person now what i find is the real height of rudeness back in the day and i'm showing my age now but i was always taught that when you go for interview you have done all the right things to send them the resume the cv the covering letter but once you have finished with interview you send them a letter nowadays you can send them an email which is absolutely fantastic provided you have contact details if you don't that's a little bit more of a challenge but get digging it's out there you can find it there are just clever ways of trying to tap into that source but they will have that information there available on the big worldwide web but always always always thank them for the interview and their time it's just a matter of courtesy but equally what i am discovering with a lot of employers and quite frankly i think this is just sheer laziness on their part this is the employer's part now and all you employers out there get a grip and write those emails or those letters or pick up that blasted phone and talk to the individual what you could be doing is a huge favor and a gift to individuals especially those that you feel that are switched on and really want that feedback feedback is golden information and what i have discovered over the years is you're left scratching your head but the interview went so well why didn't i get the job oh well time to move on and nobody learns nobody who is going through the interview process learns from that because you've just said a big flat fat no but help them help them to become better people help them to grow by giving them some valid meaty feedback now they could poo poo it or slough it off but at the end of the day you don't know whether they'll just dismiss it discard it throw it away or toss it aside especially if you send them an email now if they start going back and forth with you you definitely have to shut that down because you're just you know kindly giving them feedback on the interview and just leaving it at that and it's up to the individual to be big enough to take that feedback on board learn from it grow and do better the next time that's how we all grow as individuals and i challenge anyone who doesn't have the time or inclination to give people feedback how much do you really care about your positions that you're hiring for let alone the people that are in them so give people feedback please that would just do everyone a huge favor right that's enough of employment observations for today my friends until tomorrow bye for now you