Ep. 156: Behavioural Addiction

I, V, M. I, I, I, and everyone who was around me wanted to hit me. But I'm a good sprinter. So I escaped.

Anyway, the thing was we had gone to Colaba and a bunch of us had gone to a restaurant call Olympus on Colaba, cause way and the talk was about, you know, someone was talking about how important teamwork was or something, some discussion was happening. So inspired by that, I called it a colaba oration on collaboration. So it was even chuckled pat me on the back and smile, you know, I think the spirit of Chuck is now satisfied and main stop pointing IBM studio. But yeah, the lack of Chuck does not mean that simplified will stop.

So not will the steady flow of profundities and the family WhatsApp group has blessed us once again. This time the source of it is actually Chuck's wife who has sent in profundities from her family WhatsApp group which I'm sure Chuck shares as well. So this one is particularly beautiful because of this highlighting the generation gap in very nostalgic terms. So Naren, please share feedback at the end of this particular one.

Let me begin. A youngster asked his father, how did people live before with no access to technology, no aeroplanes, no internet, no computers, no TVs, no air cons, no cars, no mobile phones, no dramas. I don't know why there were no dramas, but okay. His dad replied, just like how your generation lives today no prayers, no compassion, no honor, no respect, no character, no shame, no modesty, no time planning, no sports, no reading.

We are the people that were born between 1940 and 1985 are the blessed ones. Our life is living proof. While playing and riding bicycles, we never wore helmets. After school, we played till dusk, we never watched TV.

If we ever fed thirsty, we drank tap water, not bottled water. Our parents were not rich, they gave us love, not worldy materials. We never had cell phones, DVDs, play a play station's Xbox, but we had real friends. Yeah, the funny part, the best one is this one.

We are unique and the most understanding generation because we are the last generation who listened to their parents, also the first generation who have listened to their children. We are a limited edition, so you better enjoy us, learn from us, their treasure us, before we disappear from the earth and your lives. This is, I don't even know where to be. I'm packing this.

Then in first, do you feel privileged to be from this generation between 1985 and 1985? I must ask you this. I'm totally brilliant. I'm actually feeling sorry for my dad, who was born in 30 years and who definitely didn't write bicycles with helmets as a guy.

So, whatever. He's like, why don't you respect me also? No, no, no, no, no, he's a generation who had their own WhatsApp or whatever. He's a pro-tron, groups and pages and sloshing around everywhere.

People are in a airplane. Looking down on this generation who is now cheating on us on WhatsApp. And my mom, who was born in 1941, would be very, very upset to be classified in the same group as I, in the same age group. Forget that, he was in the speech page.

He's like, he's like, he's like, he's 84. Come on. I'm the only one who is, I am the town pro-tron generation, the downfall it. Yeah, I have no respect.

You have no respect. No honor. I just know, you are some very despicable kind of person. Good, good to know.

Yeah, I know. This is just some next level, like, I mean, cheating on millerias and Gen Z by D.B. Who was now? This is so satisfying.

Deeply satisfying. And after a really long time, I've totally sort of been transformed by a profundity of that. Good. I know.

I know. I missed by doing all of those 150 episode special editions was the simple joys of a profundity, which I think we have regained again today. So on that note, Darrin, what's the profound topic of the day? Well, you know, it's a slightly unusual topic for simplified in the sense that I don't know if you're going to get many laughs out of this.

But it's about addictions. And specifically about behavioral addictions, because I was reading up about addictions. And the reason I was doing that was someone close to me is like being treated for an addiction. And it's a difficult journey.

And I always thought that addictions were just, you know, weakness of character or people not being able to restrain themselves or such like. And then I, as I went with him to health professionals, to doctors and found out more. And addictions are a lot to do about the way brain is wired. It's wired differently for normal people.

You and I are unlikely to ever get addicted to anything. In the way the term addiction is understood by, you know, as an illness. It is an illness in people who are addicts because their brain is wired differently. And we are just going to go through the broad, you know, the broad ways in which this happens.

I want people to know that if you have, if you know someone who's addicted to something, it's not because that person is a weakling or he lacks modified or anything like that. It's because his brain is wired differently. And there are ways of helping that person come out of all this. And of course, simplified being simplified, we can't not make puns and groans and terrible jokes on whatever we find.

So, but we'll try to sort of stay on top of this. I think we have also very effectively frontloaded this entire episode with a lot of it. Yeah. We have a very heavy, laughter oriented profundities.

So I think we can focus more on the science as we move ahead. Yeah. So, yeah, so I'm taking that as my cue to head into this topic headlong. And we all know about addictive substances.

You know, substance addiction is something. One of the things that we are going to talk about is also behavioral addiction. In fact, that's the main thing that we are going to talk about. How people can get addicted to non substance, you know, things like behaviors.

Non substance related behavior. Yeah. And it is as bad or as debilitating as a substance addiction is. So substance addiction is fairly well known.

It's basically no bad alcohol or alcoholics or drug addicts. And usually mind altering substances are the easiest to get addicted to, though it's not just that people do get addicted to nicotine and caffeine and soft drinks and other things as well. But mind altering substances such as alcohol, cocaine, heroin, amputee, all these things have proven to be strongly and really fiercely addictive among people who are their victims. And we are going to have a very, very broad look at how that works.

And here I want to put one disclaimer. So, you know, you and I, we are not really medical experts. And the purpose of this podcast is just to give a broad overview. So, if you, listener or anyone you know suffers from addiction or behavioral addiction or substance addiction, please seek medical help.

Don't like simplify it is not the, it's just there to make you sound a little smarter. That's all. It's not going to offer any solutions. Right.

So, addiction is basically a brain disorder characterized by compulsive engagement in rewarding stimuli, despite adverse consequences, which in plain English it means when you do something which is bad for you, but you still do it because it gives you happiness or joy or whatever. And traditionally it has been associated with substance such as alcohol and drugs. But in 2011, the American Society of Addiction Medicine, there is actually a Society for Addiction Medicine. It's become a branch by itself, a change the definition.

Instead of talking about substances, it defines addiction in terms of brain changes. So, it recognized, yeah, it recognized that all this is happening in the brain. As I was saying earlier, it's not, it's not inveter, it's not weakness of character. It's things happening differently in the brain.

And it defined addiction as a primary chronic disease of brain reward, motivation, memory and related circuitry. So, this definition says that addiction is about functioning and brain circuitry and not really your morals or whatever. And how the structure and function of the brains of persons with addiction differ from the structure and function of the brains of persons who don't have addiction. So, that's basically what it's like.

So, you and I, our brains are wired differently from someone who might be addicted to something. And it talks about reward circuitry and the related circuitry. So, apparently there is a circuitry which deals with rewards. So, when you do something which gives you pleasure, the brain registers that and you, you know, it delivers whatever pleasurable experience it is.

Yeah, this goes back to, I think, one of the very awesome episodes we did on the different, the brain. Chemicals in the brain. I think that pleasure hit that you get in your brain is that dopamine. Yes, yes.

So, this is, this has a lot to do with dopamine. So, all of us, we get, you know, even when you play an exciting game, something which is really, you know, if you're a video gamer and you're in a game which is like really close and you're, you know, you're straining every nerve to get whatever the game's objective is. It's pleasurable, right? So, and that is the dopamine network.

We all have brain reward circuitry that make many things rewarding because of evolutionary reasons. For example, food and sex. So, food eating food is rewarding and that's why all living creatures, animals, all of us, we go in search of food. And if that were not so, or in all organisms where food eat consumption, food was not rewarding, those organisms have died out because they wouldn't eat and it would die.

Exactly. Like, for example, even when you talk about, when you talk about sex, with, I think, only humans and dolphins apparently find sex pleasurable. Like, actually, the act itself is pleasurable or something that they seek out because it's pleasurable. The other guys are all like pretty much chasing, pretty much like driven to have sex because of the biological mechanisms that are in there, right?

Which are the reward mechanisms that they internally get that once they perform this certain act. So, it's pretty much coded into their... So basically what you're saying is we are the only creatures who have sex even when we don't enjoy it. Yeah, okay, mind the staker.

Or that. You can look at it, blast half empty or blast half full. Yeah, but yeah, so this is the survival mechanism for healthy, you know, brain, healthy organism, whatever. And it's easy to say how if this reward system went slightly wonky, you could just saw, you know, it is known, like food addiction or sex addiction is a known disorder.

And there is something wrong with the reward system. So the act is performed, like consumption of food or sex, and the hit that is expected in one part of the brain doesn't come. So you keep doing it. So you keep consuming food or you keep having sex or whatever.

And it becomes irrational. It's not normal. And then people treat you as an outcast. The same thing happens even in addiction.

So you and I, if you were to have a drink, you would have a drink or two drinks or three. And then the brain would signal to us saying that, you know, you've got the pleasure, you got it. You're bad enough. And now it's no longer comfortable.

You're not in, you know, you can't walk or you're feeling woozy or you're feeling nauseous or whatever it may be. And you stop. So that's how we stop. But the person who is affected, that little switch in the brain is not working.

And he or she is not going to get that signal. And they're going to keep doing that, which, you know, the brain is going to keep asking for more. It's like a, it's like the old school gramophone records that are stuck on loop. That's a very good analogy.

Yeah. It's that constantly like trying to find the same gratification from those actions, but they'll never get it. But they are almost compelled to repeat the actions again and again and again and again. And that's actually quite, I mean, you can see this in, I mean, you can see this with like actions, even if you don't suffer as much as an addict, does and I don't think anyone will really be able to understand and fully empathize with their suffering other than someone else who's been addicted.

Yeah. But there are smaller, smaller scales versions of this with certain things that you do that you think that you might enjoy, but you end up doing them. So I think all of us in our lives will be able to understand that there are certain tasks that we end up doing, which we don't enjoy, but we feel that we should and we almost be compelled to do that because of certain like behavioral, I mean, knocks in our head. And I think that expanded to a whole blown up way in as far as this addiction is concerned is where behavioral like addictions happen.

Yeah. So I think it's time to take a little break. But when we come back, we will talk more about the subject of addiction itself and more about behavioral addiction coming right up after the break. Stay tuned.

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We were talking about addiction and behavioral addiction in particular. And yeah, Shikith, you were talking about how all of us could probably relate to addiction because we've all done something more or less compulsively even when you know we shouldn't be doing it. And that's because some part of our brain is really getting a kick out of it. And it's actually something about like, it's almost like you're compulsively doing an action which you aren't able to, I mean, there is no logical amount of inquiry that you will be able to put on your brain, on your conscious part of your brain to get an answer for that particular thing about why you feel like repeating that particular action over and over again.

That's an excellent point because now your brain is part of the thing, right? It's not outside the problem. It's not able to see the problem. It's inside it's not able to figure it out.

Yeah. And that's where it comes down to. I mean, when you look at the problem this way, you're also able to understand that it's not, therefore, you can also see why a behavioral addiction is not very different from a substance addiction. And a substance addiction is not different from this either because it's not about the behavior that is being lubed.

Correct. It is about the trigger that is making it do it. Yeah. There is something about a molecule or a gene or something about this you're telling me about.

Yeah. So it's actually that's where, so from, I was looking this particular thing up about where the where addictions are born and what what actually where they come from. And I found it to be quite interesting to see that both substance based addictions and behavioral addictions are actually found find a root in this particular gene transcription factor or gene factor called delta FsoB. So now this delta FsoB sorry delta FOSB for me delta for me.

So now delta FOSB is actually a so it's a gene factor. It's a truncated splice variant of the FOSB gene. Now, what this gene does and this is the interesting part about it is that it's been identified as the it's called as identified as a sustained molecular switch or the master control protein in the development of an addiction. Now, what happens with people who have who develop like substance or behavioral based addictions is that the delta FOSB gene is called is termed as turned on or sufficiently over expressed.

Now, what that does is that it kind of starts because the gene is so active it's constantly creating what are called transcription events where they are transcribing new segments to genes which produce an addictive state or compulsive reward seeking behavior involving a particular stimulus. Now, these are these so it does do very interesting things and it's actually interesting to look at this from the perspective of how an addiction manifests itself is that it does two things. First is it positively regulates it positively regulates a reward sorry it positively regulates drug self administration and reward sensitization through positive reinforcement. So when you're constantly getting the moment you the delta FOSB gene will give you temporary hits of dopamine but not enough to satisfy you.

So you will constantly seek the reward again and again and there will be reward sensitization. So you will feel that okay I can give this particular reward for me to feel satisfied eventually. And also the second thing that it does is that it decreases sensitivity to aversion. So you might do a behavior which you particularly personally don't even like very much or that you feel is or you are cognitively and emotionally aware is bad for you.

But what this gene also does when it's over expressed is suppresses that say a feeling aversion. So especially people who have behavioral problems behavioral addiction which are of a very deviant kind or a certain very anti social kind of addiction be a sexual kind or any kind of deviant behavior which normally might discuss other people that that aversion disappears. And that's what allows them to repeat that behavior over and over again. So gambling is one of those things I'm sure gambling addiction for things like that.

Yeah, I mean this is so I was actually funnily enough I was recently went to this casino here in Malaysia KLL place called Ganting which is one of the biggest casinos around here. And I actually went to the casino floor now what they have done over there of course to kind of encourage their gambling practices and stuff is that they have they have allowed for smoking on the floor. Now so the entire casino is a smoking area. So you can smoke it area you can eat over there and you can like there are blues that are really accessible.

And you can actually see that the whole place is leaking of smoke it's like sad it feels like the air is heavy. You feel like there is a gloom over the entire place and there are these old people who have these mounds of coins who are sitting there constantly just probably sitting there for six, seven, eight hours and just putting coins in the machine and pulling the levers. They don't even look happy. Yeah, that's one thing I realized I went the I've seen two gambling places one is Macau and one is Las Vegas both these places.

The other thing I noticed was how sad people appeared they were excited Macau they were down right like completely like sorrowful and but they couldn't get up from there. Yeah, I mean it doesn't matter whether they are winning or losing. It's just the experience itself is sort of full like they're there whether they actually end up like pulling some winnings or they are lost in a particular hand. Like for example there was lady who was sitting at a slot machine an old grandma type of lady who was just sitting over there and just pulling coins in and pulling the lever.

At some point I almost felt like as though she wasn't even bothering to see what the result of her lever pool was. It was just like she was putting the coins in and just pulling the lever like out of compulsion like a robot. I read some of that classic hallmarks of addiction are continued use despite consequences. So this is classic yeah classic hallmarks.

Yeah, exactly so I mean it's actually therefore it's that puts to rest the whole misconception of people about saying that those who are addicts are actually head in this or someone who are pleasure seekers or who are dedicated to. Who would have ill power. Yeah, who don't have ill power or something like that. The addiction is not really a thing about like being on a continuous pleasure seekers but it's more about it's compulsive they can't help themselves and that's that's something that should be understood especially when you're dealing with addicts or any sort.

So one of the questions that I was researching when I was researching for this is why does addiction happen one is of course the genetic factor what what it is described the delta for speed delta for speed is only probably one of the factors there must be others as well but delta for speed is probably the best of them all. But there have been larger studies so epidemiological studies across population things of that and those estimate the genetic genetic factors account for as many as 60% of the risk factors of alcoholism. So alcoholism is well so 60% of alcoholics are are alcoholics because of the genetic factors. That's it.

Wow yeah I mean it is true that I mean it's actually very nicely demonstrated one of the very popular shows on which which I was watching recently called this is us and it actually talks about alcoholism and many very interesting way very emotionally sound way and that show actually kind of brings out the whole factor of there's this guy who's a great family he's a great father he's a great everything but he's a closet alcoholic can't help it himself like he's he's excellent to his wife he doesn't misty anyone he's just the model person but a closet like I can then they reveal in his back so that is father was an alcoholic and therefore the compulsiveness towards it comes and what also companies is because the way addicts are being viewed in society is the shame which is why he was he's pushed in the closet and he can't even get help. Yeah so he can't even come out and ask for help yeah yeah he's he's moral compass is so strong that he's he's supposed to be a good guy and wants to be a good guy and he's just by himself yeah he's just by the way he hits himself on this account and that's what pushes him further into the closet. You know one of the things about you know when you study about genetics and how genetics affects these things is twins something called twin studies so you studied twins who have you know identical practically identical genetics and studies performed on twins found that it was almost absent that only one twin had an addiction you in most cases where at least one twin suffered from an addiction both of them did and and often oftentimes to the same substance so it is very very strong evidence that it is genetic. So therefore I mean I think it's also I think very important for these these pieces of education to kind of become more mainstream about how it's it's genuinely a medical problem right yeah along with mental illness stigma has to be removed yes exactly like I think I think as a society in India at least there is a lot of conversations that's happening around mental illnesses and stuff and I think along as a part of the mental and where people are accepting that mental illnesses are just as important and just as grave and just as a treatment worthy as any other illnesses like a cough or a cold or a broken leg you need to look at addiction also similarly that it is I mean it's very clearly proven to be a genetic medical problem so it's something that cannot be accompanied with either disgust or revulsion or shame or like just hate hating the people who are that way required it requires acceptance and actually like and sympathy and empathy towards those people yeah that said there is also research shows that there are also environmental factors and environmental risk factors are basically the experience of an individual during that individual's lifetime that interact with the individuals genetic composition to increase or decrease their vulnerable to it so genetic is one but environmental factors could greatly sort of exacerbate that condition and number of environmental factors have been implicated as risk factors including various what they call psychosocial stressors so what are psychosocial things like you know prevalence of pure substance use so they did a study and they found that I mean it's not very difficult to see why this will happen but if you put a child and children and adolescents are especially vulnerable I wear say smoking is common the children will like significantly higher rates of smoking will be observed among them and they grow into adulthood okay yeah and this is across so the same same thing for alcoholism drug use everything is the same and so it is now recognized as an environmental risk factor another one is a lack of parental supervision this happens a lot it used to happen a lot in the US it happens a lot in the US and it's increasingly now observed even in countries like India because of lifestyle changes parents you know just a couple or even a generation ago you lived in large joint families where children were always supervised and nuclear families and you know the need for both parents to work just to make ends meet means that oftentimes children are alone so they there is lack of parental supervision and they have found like studies have found that where parents children are unsupervised there's a much higher chance of addiction developing then so it's not it's probably they might have had an underlying genetic condition as well but this thing merely exacerbates it I mean you also see how there are I mean these external factors what they kind of do is that they create like an environment where you are I mean it's normal it's behavior it's experimental behavior but it's also like reactions to stressors you have stressors of the fact that you're maybe not performing very well you're missing your parents you're missing someone else your environment itself has a pollutant or some sort of stressor that's kind of driving you in a certain way but those behaviors kind of like the begin at a childhood level and manifest themselves into adulthood then become like something that are that look like oh this is an adult person making these choices correct but it actually becomes like the person's actually a victim and not just a victim now but victims in childhood yeah another another factor is age so adolescence are uniquely vulnerable apparently and you know we know because it's it's a stage of growing up where there are hormonal changes in the body and mind and everything is in a churn so adolescence to tend to be more vulnerable to addictions and in adolescence what happens is the incentive reward system in the brain they mature before the cognitive control system so you your mind is not yet the brain is not yet developed to tell you what is good and what is not good developed enough but the reward system is so if it's good like you know if you're I'm sure this will be very very common in kids who get addicted to games so playing a game is fun and they also need to study or discharge other duties but the brain is not you know it's not developed enough to give them that level of maturity so they keep doing that and then that quickly develops into an addictive behavior so the point is that age is still a factor age is definitely a factor and adolescence are highly at risk that's that's one and the last factor is co-marbit disorders co-marbit disorders are basically disorders which occur co-occur you know so things like if you have depression or anxiety or ADHD or PTSD or things like that you are more likely to develop addiction than people who don't have these diseases so even though you might not have the genetic markers which show like addiction you know susceptibility to addiction merely because you have other disorders this might be a so if there is a if there is someone who displays addictive behavior you must or you know their loved ones must get them evaluated by a psychiatrist as well because if these other disorders exist then treating those disorders might help fix the addiction problem interesting so I mean there's a lot of I mean I was I was reading a lot about co-marbit conditions and especially when it comes to mental health and with mental disorders like you talked about something like ADHD right it is often accompanied with like mild form of depression of autism or some sort of event where there is sometimes schizophrenia and it's also paired with anxiety disorders so these because they are so closely linked they kind of trigger one one triggers the other and therefore multiple conditions coming to play and that actually leads very very neatly into this entire thing about how treatment happens for behavioral disorders so from a treatment point of view it's it's actually there is no one it's not a there is no pill there is no pill you can pop on your Yeah, there's no one pill that's going to be popped and you can be cured.

Yeah, the most common form of therapy or treatment right now exists is cognitive behavioral therapy or called CBT, which is a form of psychotherapy effectively and it's used in treating behavioral addiction. So this is something that I had a little bit of very, it's been a while, but since having studied some amount of psychology in college, we briefly touched upon this topic. So I'm going to rake my brain for the knowledge from there. But from CBT, what CBT focuses on doing is breaking what are called schemas.

And schemas are basically, it's like, if you were to take a computer analogy for your brain, your brain is filled with a whole bunch of algorithms. So you have an algorithm in your brain about what is your morning routine. You're going to get up, you're going to walk out of the door, you're going to go to the sink, you're going to brush your teeth, you're going to go to the loo and then you're going to get out and dress yourself. So that's an algorithm that's roughly in your brain that you use to kind of get ready and all that stuff.

Similarly, there are schemas that kind of create algorithms for addiction. So you will have an addiction, for example, if you have a gaming addiction, you're going to come back from school or college and immediately to come to the computer and start gaming from whatever time till whatever time. So those are like pack-ons that are programmable brain. So cognitive behavior therapy or CBT aims to do is to identify these schemas and break them.

So firstly, break them up into smaller pieces and then attack those individual micro-behaviors individually and over a period of time remove them. So using psychotherapy techniques, all of these behaviors are taken to task and then afterwards, eventually they kind of move the person out of the addiction there. So it is addiction counseling effectively, like what most people will be aware of as far as addiction are concerned with substances, but it's specifically to kind of combat specific behaviors using psychotherapy. And of course, there is while we started by saying that there is no one pill that solves this, there are medications that help it and mostly like, for example, where Narayan said, with comorbid conditions.

So for example, if someone suffers an anxiety, someone suffers an addiction along with an anxiety disorder or they suffer some of psychiatric disorder, those will be those are so the treatment plan usually couples the medication along with CBT or whatever other therapy the person's getting. So that's how the treatment pattern is formed. So it's just a very basic summary of the overall process. It's of course a lot more complex because of the complexity of these addictions as well as the other mental disorders.

Yeah. But yeah, that's just an overview of how the treatment for behavior, behavior, behavior addictions have. So in general, what you're saying is in general, the treatment will be psycho-social than drug based. So drug might be incidental, but basically.

Yeah. Yeah. Comorbid conditions. Because it's a behavioral therapy most often.

Yeah. And it is difficult because your brain is not, you know, like we said right in the beginning, your brain is not recognizing the triggers, it's not recognizing the reward system. Your brain is not responding like a normal person's brain. It's ill.

And to make that brain recognize that there is a problem and to overcome it is in itself a completely different kind of challenge. So it's not trivial. And there have been, so I read about alcoholism and there is something called a 12 step program where a 12 step program, which involves the following first that, you know, first thing you have to admit that no one can control your addiction. You can only you can control.

So that's a big thing. So a lot of people they blame their addiction on other things. So even behavioral addiction, I can imagine a victim blaming it on stress or competitive environment at work or whatever it might be. But the first step is to admit that only your response, no one else is responsible.

The second one is recognizing that some higher power can give. So you basically try to find strength in some supernatural being or something like that, because your brain is not really able to sort of recognize it and do that. So they go into that and then another technique, another part of the 12 step program is examining past errors with the help of a sponsor who is actually an experienced member who's gone through it before, who will basically hand hold you through the steps and to make amends for these errors. So you know, you made it, it's all in the past, you sort of make it better.

Then you learn, the next step is to learn to live a new life with a new code of behavior to ensure that you don't slip back. Yeah, exactly. And the last one is you help others who have suffered from the same, you know, addiction that you have and help them to come out of it. So it also, it makes you feel good and it reminds you not to slip back into that.

So when you're constantly in touch with other people who are afflicted with the same thing, it reminds you that you can't, you know, you can't take this lightly. You have to, you have to make sure that you don't slip back again. So, and just on that also, there's, I was talking to, a psychology student who was a friend and she was telling me that there is also like this, especially now with the rise of information about mental illnesses and stuff. There are certain people who try to talk about mental illnesses and saying making analogies of, oh, would you go to a doctor to see them for a common cold?

Then why can't you go for therapy session? She said while the approach is admirable, the intent is that the analogy is actually flawed and might create more misconceptions because, and it's similar to addictions as well, where, yes, it is an illness that requires medical help and requires intervention of some sort, but it should also be understood that it is not an illness like a cold or a cough that will go away in five days or a week. It is almost like a chronic illness. Imagine like a diabetes.

And it's not, it's not, it's incurable. So as the first thing that the psychologist tells you is that it's an incurable. You're never going to get better. There's no point in the future and you can go back to your addiction and expect not to be addicted again.

So, you know, you have to be aware for it forever, format forever. Yeah, it's a journey that you have to start and sometimes afterwards, there will be something that will be a great effort for you and you might arrive at a point where you're comfortable in life, but it's always something that you will have to keep an eye on. That because it's something that can be cut very easily and you can fall back into that negative feedback loop. Yeah, right.

So, yeah, that's been an uncharacteristically heavy episode, but I hope that, you know, that anyone, if you know anyone who's addicted or who exhibits these symptoms, that help is at hand and it is possible it's pretty straightforward coming out of it. It's not easy, but it is straightforward if you can count millions of people have. And I hope these, you know, this episode, you know, you can, if you really know someone, you can help them to seek better counsel. And well, that brings us to the end of this episode.

I hope all of you enjoyed it. So, stay safe, stay sober, stay simplified. That's perfect. See you over the next week.

Yes, bye.