This is Hidden Brain, I'm Shankar Vedantham If you tune in to Saturday Night Live, the weekend after last fall's election You may remember the sketch A group of friends, all liberals, are gathered around their TV As states begin to report voter tallies It doesn't go the way they expect Okay, all she has to do is come back and win Wisconsin Come back and win Michigan Come back and win Pennsylvania Some of the counties are supposed to The urban counties are supposed to Black people both like Making jokes about politics, politicians, and voters Is a tradition as bold as America itself Cartoonists portrayed King George as a tyrant and a buffoon During the Revolutionary War More than a century ago, Mark Twain wrote that Fleas can be taught nearly anything that a congressman can And in the 1960s, the Smothers Brothers used their TV platform To criticize the Vietnam War Much to the chagrin of network censors And if you ever get a word without London or boy I'll be the first to go But until then, Mr. McNamara These days, of course, comedians have a new target President Donald Trump Today, we thought we'd talk with one of those comedians The Iranian-American Maz Jobrani For him, the Trump administration ban on travelers from seven nations Including Iran, has hit close to home Maz is a liberal and has strong feelings about President Trump Feelings that are increasingly showing up in a stand-up routine Listen, first of all, whether you like Trump or not You gotta admit, when he first started running Everybody thought it was a joke Everybody was like Now no one can believe it Everyone's like Today on Hidden Brain, finding the laughter In a moment of political strife Maz Jobrani came to the United States when he was just a kid His family fled Iran during the 1979 revolution Over the years, Maz has made a name for himself With comedy that draws on parenting Persian culture and politics He's the author of I'm Not a Terrorist But I play one on TV He also has a new show out on CBS It's called Superior Donuts Maz, welcome to Hidden Brain Thanks for having me Maz, you know, I've always had the sense That comedians are really social scientists Because you can't do comedy Unless you have a really sharp eye for human nature There's a joke that you did some months ago That reinforces this idea for me It's about Donald Trump's attitude toward immigrants Listen, the number one thing I've heard Trump supporters say The number one thing I love him Because he says was on his mind He just said was on his mind He just said was on his mind You go, what are your thoughts on his policies? I don't know about his policies He just said was on his mind I thought that was the dumbest thing I've ever heard So I went to visit my mother My own mother, Iranian lady She had fallen for the line My mom goes, Maz, I like this guy Because he's saved what he's on his mind I go, Mom, are you crazy? He's anti-immigrant If he became president Your relatives couldn't come to visit you She goes, I don't like them anyway So Maz, you predicted what the Trump administration Was going to do with travelers from Iran Months before it was announced Can you tell me what's next in Donald Trump's paybook?
You know how hard it's been to write material? Because to do stand-up comedy It takes time for the material to develop So you'll come up with a joke You'll tweak it You'll work it for six months You'll really fine-tune it Now you've got a good bit Well, with Trump, every day There's something new coming out And sometimes you do a joke That already feels dated I did a joke last night about the travel ban And it just, it felt dated to me already Although you can continue to do it So nobody knows what he's going to do next And I keep saying that Trump is good for comedy But bad for the world What was the joke about the travel ban? Well, it's just that I've been doing jokes about I talk about how when the protests happened For the travel ban at the airport I went down I actually went down to the LAX and I protested And one of the observations I said I made Was that I realized quickly That white people born in America Protest differently than people of color Or anyone who is an immigrant Because I'm an immigrant And this actually happened We were all protesting But then when the cops came out in riot gear I kind of felt like I wanted to go protest on the side Whereas all the white people Just kept going at the cop And I was like, are you crazy? But one guy, this actually happened One guy had his finger in the face of the cop In riot gear The cop had his baton He was ready to go This white guy had his finger in the face of the cop And just, I don't know what he was saying But it looked like he was saying Something along the lines of This is my right And I'm going to protest or whatever And I got nervous for him And I got nervous for us I got nervous for everybody I can tell that you feel very strongly About Donald Trump And that there's much about this administration That upsets you But I'm also wondering What effect this has on your comedy I mean, it's hard to be funny When you're angry at the same time, isn't it?
Yeah, well, I mean Some people have made a living doing that Louis Black, who's one of my favorite comedians Is angry and he's funny Very funny That's the last person On the f***ing earth You want to give a firearm to? Somebody teaching the fifth grade? Are you f***ing me? You don't think at some point You should reach on their desk And go, shut up, you f***ing f***ing f***ing So there are those I'm very active now on social media And I have people comment and say Stick to comedy You're a comedian, stick to comedy And my response to those people is Then you should stick to accounting Don't criticize my comedy I mean, it's like You are what you are I am a political human being That's one of my interests I studied political science in college I was actually going to get my PhD in poli-sci And a lot of my material from early on in my career Dealt with politics So I've always considered myself As somebody who enjoys political humor So I'm not going to stop I know you spend time watching Fox News In the age of Donald Trump And in some of your comedy You talk about how this changes Your own perception It's based on fear It's all based I watch it from time to time To see what the other side is thinking A little bit You know what I'm saying And then once you watch it a little bit You start doubting the people around you I'm like Maybe my cousin Mahmoud Is up to some You're saying that you start to buy it?
You know, it's very similar To what happened at the Republican National Convention I mean, when they kept saying Make America great again You've got to make America safe And America's in danger And it's this If you buy into that fear I mean, they really were Scaring people at that Republican National Convention To the point where you thought Oh, you know, if I'm there I'm thinking I shouldn't go out the streets Because Muslims are coming to get me And I think that if you watch those enough That you slowly start doubting And when you go into a subway store And there's a Muslim guy behind the counter You start doubting his intentions a little bit How do you take that And turn that into comedy? How do you take stuff that's very serious That people potentially care about That people are potentially hurt by How do you take that And turn that into a joke Or a punchline? Is there a method to doing it? I think sincere emotions And feelings about a subject Your sincere experiences with a subject I talk about, for example Talking about the fear of ISIS And I was doing a little bit About how I actually went to Turkey In November to do a show And at 7 a.m.
one morning Somebody rang my door At the hotel room And I was jet-lagged And I got up And I went and looked through the little people And I look out And there was three Arab guys Standing there In a triangular fashion Like one standing in the center Two flanking him And I honestly for a second I thought, oh my god ISIS has come to get me And I just was scared And I go, who is it? And then the poor Arab guy He kind of looked around And he goes, Mustafa? And I go, no There's no Mustafa He goes, oh, sorry Mustafa So they had come to the wrong door Just three Arab guys I guess their buddy Mustafa Must have been two doors down I don't know But that's where Again, when I was talking about it on stage It was getting laughs Because it was making fun of myself And how I had fallen for this fear So I think you take those situations And you talk about the odds Of you actually having something That's happening You were low But how you can buy into it And how I bought into it One of the things I find Very interesting about your comedy From a psychological perspective, Maz Is you talk about how Being surrounded by stereotypes And profiling Changes the way you think about yourself You did an interview some time ago With a public radio show, The World And I want to play a short excerpt from it This feeling I used to have After September 11th I felt like whenever you passed Through the metal detector You just felt guilty And I would go through it And I would hear like I'd be like, I knew it So that's a joke, of course But I understand this feeling Of being suspicious of even yourself Might have some parallels in real life As you've gone around the country To perform live shows Yeah, absolutely I mean, listen We get bombarded with this stuff Every day, every day, every day So it's going to be in our minds It's going to be there I mean, I did another bit In my special called I'm Not a Terrorist But I played one on TV I do a joke about how I say I realize that I racially profile And this actually happened again Where I was on an airplane Sitting towards the front And before the door closed This blonde girl American girl Probably in her mid-twenties She came running to the front Seeing like she was having a panic attack And just was saying I've got to get off this plane I can't do this I can't fly And the stewardess came up and goes What's going on? We're about to leave No, no, I can't I've got to get off And the stewardess said Okay, let me ask the pilot The pilot came out I said, okay, fine You can get off So she just walked off And then we closed the door We took off And as we were taxiing The passenger next to me Looked at me and said Shouldn't we check to see If she had any luggage underneath?
And my thought to the passenger was No, she was just some 20-year-old white girl Any baggage that she had Was in her head Whereas the honest truth is Again, this is how we all profile Because of what we've seen And I do this when I do this And when I do this in my stand-up I picked somebody out In the audience It was an Egyptian And I said, I guarantee you I said, next time an airplane Is about to take off Go sit in the back Of the plane you're in And just come running to the front And with your thickest Arabic accent Just say, I have to get off This plane right now I cannot do this I have to get off this plane And see if they let you off the plane They will definitely stop the plane They will search the plane President Trump will give a speech That they thwarted a terrorist attack So what's that based on? That's based on these stereotypes That we've seen so many times Over and over again And so, yeah, I think we all stereotype And that's not a good thing When we come back I'm going to ask Miles Miles, you've performed comedy All over the world In the United States The Middle East Are there jokes that work here That don't work, for example In Saudi Arabia? Yeah, I mean that's For the most part A lot of material works Especially if you're doing material About your family Everywhere you go When you do material Parents seem to sympathize And I think we can all agree That kids can be the common enemy sometimes But there are jokes That sometimes don't work as well I used to do a joke where I said I said, having young kids Your time is not your own time You have to take care of your to-do list While they're napping You're almost like a Navy SEAL You've got to be ready to go Anytime, anyplace I used to do a joke where I said The other day the kids were napping I went to my wife I said, hey, the kids are napping Let's make love And my wife said, I'm not in the mood I said, well, I'm not in the mood either But the kids are sleeping Let's go, move it, move it We've got to kill bin Laden Let's do this And then jokingly I turned to the audience I said, that's what we call sex in my house Killing bin Laden And so that was the joke And in America people appreciated it But then I was doing a show in Saudi Arabia And as you may know The bin Laden family Is a respected family in Saudi Arabia So I wasn't sure I wasn't sure how they were going to respond And so I tried the joke And it kind of got a lukewarm response Like a nervous response Like a nervous response Like some people in the audience Like the younger guys in the audience Were laughing But the older families were not Because I think they just felt It was disrespectful So yeah, there's been times When some jokes don't go over as well But, you know, live and learn So over the years Your comedy has often addressed Persian culture And tried to demystify that culture For other Americans This is a clip from your comedy special I'm not a terrorist But I played one on TV Persians, the Persians We're very formal We're a very formal culture I'll tell you how I realized How formal we are, okay This happened recently I was at a Persian event And I was walking And there was this Persian lady Saying that I stepped on her toe Accidentally I said, I'm sorry And she goes, no, please My foot is too long She took the blame Like, please I should never have been here In the first place Where did the idea for that joke come from? This actually happened I was at an event This Iranian fundraiser And I stepped on this lady's toes I didn't write the joke I just literally stepped on her toes I said, I'm sorry She literally said, no, please Don't worry, it was my fault My foot was too long She said that And that same night I went on stage Because it just wrote itself And I just basically reported what happened And it was funny because She stood up from the back And she goes, that was me And I go, yeah And I said, I told you guys I said, I'm not making this up I understand that one of the battles You fought over the years Is to get roles in television and movies That allow villains Including terrorists To be played with psychological depth How's that worked out?
Well, that was an early battle, I would say That was early on in my career I've been doing this now 18 years So around the year 2000 I still had a day job I had a desk job I was an assistant in an advertising agency So I was looking for some TV gigs That would help me Or film gigs That would help me be able to financially Subsist without the day job So I was ready to take anything And then I auditioned for And was cast in a Chuck Norris movie of the week Called The President's Man A Line in the Sand And in this movie I was to play an Afghan terrorist Who was going to blow up a building in Chicago And this was before September 11th had happened So, as you just said I decided to take the part Thinking to myself That perhaps through my acting ability I could show why this guy Was so upset about America And to the point where he wanted to blow up a building I really kind of basically misled myself Thinking that maybe my acting Will show why this guy was doing what he was doing But when I went down to Dallas Where they were filming this And went to the wardrobe fitting And they said, here's your shirt Here's your pants And here's your turban And then I told the wardrobe I said, oh no, no I said, actually Afghans in America Don't wear turbans I really want to get this right You know, it's Indian Sikhs who wear turbans Let's get this right And she said, listen The producers want you to wear turbans I said, listen, you let them know I've done my research Afghans in America do not wear turbans And then the next day I came back to put on my clothes And there was my shirt, my pants And what looked like a scarf So I thought that she talked to them And they agreed And I said, well, thank you for talking to them And I'm happy that everyone's agreed That I don't mind being a scarf wearing terrorist And she goes, that's not a scarf That's the turban You just got to wrap it back up And I go, oh, come on So I wore the turban I felt like an idiot And so I came back to Los Angeles And I said, listen, I told my agents I don't want to do any more terrorist parts And so, and that was only the second terrorist part I'd ever done And then the TV show 24 called And they said, we have a terrorist And I said, no, thank you And they said, but he changes his mind Halfway through the mission And I said, ooh, the ambivalent terrorist Well, that's interesting So I played that terrorist And that was the last time I played a terrorist And I haven't played one since Sometimes, I came by a bit that you did That reminded me of a recent episode Of Hidden Brain That looked at the subject of immigration I swear to God I was in an Uber with an older Armenian guy This guy loved Trump Barely spoke English But he loved Trump He was trying to tell me We recently talked with Cuban-American researcher Maria Cristina Garcia And she told me that This has been a repeated feature Of U.S. immigration Very soon after people get here They want to slam the door On those who come after them So there's some historical insight In that joke Yeah, I've been experiencing it I experienced it during the campaign And that Armenian guy Was a real guy And he really loved Trump And it opened my eyes And then I heard it more and more In my shows I was actually doing a show in Houston Where there was a mixed crowd Of different backgrounds And there was a white couple Who, they seemed to be Republican-y Just the way they were Interacting with me When I was talking to them And I thought they were Going to be the ones That were going to yell back at me When I did my Trump jokes But they didn't Instead, this Lebanese guy When I said When I did the big And I say to my mom Hey mom He's anti-immigrant Trump is anti-immigrant The Lebanese guy in the audience Goes he's anti-illegal immigrant You know it's amazing How they want to distinguish themselves But I feel bad Because I go Where's your empathy So with that question of empathy in mind Do you think comedy Can actually change anything Does it change the way That people think Yeah I think comedy is a good way To help people change their minds I think that if you're laughing And getting a message across It's a lot easier Than when somebody Is screaming in your face So I've had people I know for example After September 11th When I was part of The Access Evil Comedy Tour And it premiered on Comedy Central in 2007 We got emails from people A few of them saying One guy in particular I remember saying That he said After September 11th He said I really hated Arabs and Muslims And people from the Middle East But he goes Having seen your guys as special It made me realize That there's good people From there as well And part of that also Is not just the jokes That we're doing And being comedians on stage But also if you look out In our audience And you see people From those backgrounds Just laughing I think it makes people realize That there's good people From everywhere So yeah I do think That comedy can help Change people's minds Master Brahmi Thank you so much For joining me on Hidden Brain today Thanks for having me This episode of Hidden Brain Was produced by Tara Boyle Our staff includes Maggie Tenman Jenny Schmidt Renee Klar Raina Cohen And Chloe Conley Our unsung hero this week Is Stephen Hafton-Saw Steve's a data scientist at NPR And helps us understand How audiences are listening To shows like Hidden Brain He loves numbers And loves bringing numbers to life Steve's also a walking reminder Of the value of that old saw When you want something done Always ask the busiest person I'm Shankar Vitantham And this is NPR And this is NPR What have Americans ever thought Of Iranians as terrorists Ever? Never It was like apparently You weren't here During the hostage crisis I was getting my Where were you?