I need to force that to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to the watch. My name is Chris Ryan.
I'm editor at the editor. The president of programming for FX and FX productions. Nick Grad. Hey guys.
Nick. Nick. Nick. We're very happy to have you here.
Not only because you are a friend of the pod and a nice fellow but because you were instrumental in bringing shepherding Atlanta onto the air and as much as we want to talk about the season finale. This is not the basket spot. Oh, we can do basket. I'm back.
It's back to January. Emmy Award winning Louis Anderson. We want to talk about the whole process, how it came to you as an idea, how you got it onto the air and how it became this amazing thing that it became. Are you prepared to talk about all the things?
I want to say that I'm a huge fan of the pod and it's kind of the little bit seen the wizard behind the curtain. It's very impressive. You see a certain layer of scream and a green one. I have a pretty cool Merlin hat on right now too.
Chris is actually available to scream. It's kind of got a Michael Buffer. I need that app. That would be a hot app.
I was a little worried last week when I knew I was coming on and of course I'm following Raffi. That's not fair. That's not fair. It's tough.
You're in that very chair. That is a tough one. But you know, one thing that your network has proven and Atlanta has proven is that not every episode has to follow the same tone as the episode that came before, right? So this is the new television.
We can go from improvisational comedy to whatever you want this to be. Deeply confessional. Executive moments. Tell us a little bit about, do you remember when Atlanta figuratively landed on your desk?
Well, I don't remember a bunch of it a couple of years ago. We had a kind of a quote unquote general meeting with Donald and you know he started talking about a world. It was pretty free form. It was about a feeling and a world and you know it took place in Atlanta and it would tell with Raffi.
It was a very kind of rough idea out there. But we loved, John was someone that we had sort of marked down someone we were chasing and we really wanted to develop them. So we of course threw our hat in the ring and said we'd love to have you write a script and sort of figure this thing out. And thankfully he chose us.
I don't remember the time how competitive it was. I think part of, I mean we had a good meeting but I'd also like to think that part of the reason he chose us was I think the trail that Louis plays for us and knowing that we could sort of support these ever increasing malleable half hours. It could be anything. It doesn't have to be, you don't have to hit a certain mark of how much comedy there is.
It can be dramatic. It can be comedic. It doesn't have to be linear. And I think it was, we were excited about it but I don't think we sort of realized that it was something real until I think over a year later the script landed on our desk and you read it and you're like holy shit, this is really different, this is really special but this is definitely something we can program.
It sort of fits in the sort of half hour brand that we had. Did he say the words that have become attached to the film in the show? Did he say in that meeting, I want to do Twin Peaks with rappers, did he use these words that kind of are exciting? Has funny how that's become the Mr.
Chips, was the Breaking Bad one? Oh right, yeah, Mr. Chips with Scarface. That's essentially the defacto log line of a show that rejects log lines at every opportunity.
But I imagine even if he didn't say those words, it's always a hurdle to get what's in someone's head unless they put it on a page. So in that meeting were there any of the strands that became- I don't remember that. I mean obviously I remember reading the script and there's still the scene on the bus with the sandwich and there's the talk of the dog. And so it wasn't something that was sort of jammed in there at the end, it was definitely a part of it.
And there was also a really amazing scene in the pilot that we ended up not shooting. That was this crazy scene that all took place in a wonder on the subway. It sort of went through all these different incarnations but once you read it, you sort of, it was more as though it was like a feeling and then you're like, oh okay. I sort of get it and then you read the script and you're like, oh I really get it now.
And we were all sort of, it was just so original, just like nothing you'd ever read before. So let me ask you a question. Where did you work before FX? Like in terms of your- Well I've been at FX for 14 years.
Okay. So even in that time period, when does it's a feeling become the kind of thing that can get a show sold? Right? Because that feels like something that, from an outside perspective, would have only been in the last three, four years where you could walk in and be like, I have an idea for a world.
There's no plane crash in an island, there's no hospital, there's just this idea I have. Look, I think especially at half hour development, when you're paying people to write scripts, I think there's a certain amount of R&D that goes into that process. And so, I think of it as someone that's really talented that you believe in, the glass is more than half full and you're willing to sort of roll the dice and say, yeah, let's write a script. I think the marketplace is super competitive right now and now you read about all these places having to go straight to series and immediately shoot a pilot and that gets a little tricky.
But I think being able to have someone put something down on paper and then you can really see it's like, oh my god, this seems like the craziest idea. How did they put that on? But I think if you go through these stages, you can sort of understand how that can come to be. Let's talk about those stages.
What you alluded to with things going straight to series and competitive nature of the marketplace, there's a sense, and I think we'll pull some examples, but there are some of the players who are swooping in like a Netflix or something is basically saying, okay, go make it, okay, go make it. And they seem to be to some degree, and I don't know the inner workings of Netflix at all, frankly. But leaving behind some of the skills that more traditional, I can't believe the fact that some more traditional broadcast or you've been around for a little bit longer. Some of the skill sets and values that you guys like to do, which is you like to develop, you like to do R&D, you like to have back and forth, you like to get behind under the hood with the creators and work on stuff.
What is that process like? You have the script, you have a willing partner in Donald, where does it go from there? How long is the process? Do you have a time frame or is it very organic?
This process developing with Donald is different than developing with all the other people you develop with with Louis or Ryan Murphy or whomever. Look, the ability that you have when you don't really have a set schedule, so you don't have to launch the broadcast networks. A bunch of shows in September allows you to sort of do the sort of earnest and julio gallo thing and take your time. So everything, I would say every show, every project has had its own idiosyncratic journey.
It's really about most people, I guess, who are artists on some level, want someone to say, we love it, just go make it and you have no interference. But I think if you talk to people who have worked with us, I think there's a learning process on both ends from it. And yeah, it's great to be able to have these crossroads where you can sort of cut bait if you need to, if it's just not there. But for the most part, I think everyone learns something at each stage of the journey.
And I think you learn so much in writing it. I think we've learned so much putting its onto feet and shooting it. And then you learn, just, Donald was talking to us about ideas for the second season and he's learned so much, not only from making the first season, but from watching it and seeing people's feedback. And the whole thing is a feedback loop that's really important in putting something on the air.
And I think one of the narratives about the show is that, and rightfully so, is that this is what happens when you give people who ordinarily don't get a chance to make television a chance, whether it's something like here in Mariah directing, who would not done television before per se. And one of the things that is interesting to me about Atlanta though is for sort of progressive or rule breaking as it seems when you watch it, it also feels like the work of people who know how to make television. You know what I mean? I never bored when I'm watching Atlanta.
There's never a feeling like I'm like, this is really like where are we going here? And yeah, and this is the tells perfectly with the question I wanted to ask, which is a lot of people have made television. I mean, there's a trust process. You get the script.
You've got Donald's vision. You put it on the page. You're going back and forth. He's a good creative partner.
But at a certain point, you cut the check and let them go off to Atlanta and film this thing. What was it about this crew, about Donald himself, about his brother, about his people? He's working with it. He wrote it.
He allowed you to say, yeah, go do it. I think you sort of earn more credit in the bank as you go through the process and sort of prove yourself. So, you know, Donald writes this great script. Okay, man.
This guy really is visionary and really talented writer. You know, we did a big search for directors. We had some really interesting names. And then at some point, Donald wrote a very passionate email about Hero and why he thinks he's the right choice.
And we spent a bunch of time watching Heroes watch- Is this a short film with Donald right there? Yeah. Watching a lot of his videos for Donald. And at the end of the day, why are we going to jam someone in there when this guy's very talented?
I know he hasn't done television, but our creator totally believes in this guy. And I think we have to support our creators and not make this safe choice. Totally. When you guys are in that R&D stage, what are some of the references and influences that are getting tossed around by Donald by Hero by you guys in terms of capturing him?
Because you watch it and I've actually been, you know, there's stuff where I feel like it has a real Altman feel and there's stuff where I feel like I was a real Coen where there's feel like in terms of the dream logic that sometimes happens within it. Was there anything in particular that Donald was using as reference points that you guys were suggesting as reference points that you remember? I mean, what I remember the most is Donald would say, I wanted to be this movie or that movie, but he'd always followed up with it. But I wanted to be really funny too.
And so we sort of felt like, okay, there has to be this right balance of comedy. It doesn't have to be as funny as early funny as we send you in Philadelphia. But it has to have comedy in some degree. And look, I think once Louis was on the air and you realize it can be anything at once and it still can be compelling, then you can sort of say, okay, well, you're gonna have this much comedy, that's fine.
But you know, he still wanted, he still at the end of the day wanted to make something that was funny. What about casting? Because obviously you guys felt comfortable enough with their auditions, with everything else to cast, Ryan Tyree Henry, Keith Stanfield, Zadie Beets, like to cast them as part of the ensemble. Was there a moment though when you started seeing dailies or cuts of episodes when you realized just how remarkable they were?
Because I think that's the other thing about the show. It's one of the reasons we're so excited about it, many people are, is that it didn't just feel promising. You know, it's very easy to get behind a show that feels potentially good and the beginning of potential can get you through the least of season. This felt fully formed and alive in such a way.
Like we feel like we know those people. So that when I watched the finale this week and I realized that that Bern and Alfred are saying goodbye for the day and the episode and that means for the year for us, I was sad. I'm gonna miss them. Yeah, and watching Brian Tyree, I was almost like watching Stephen Adams, like a merge over the course of a playoffs.
No, no, no, no. I'm here to watch Russell Westbrook, I'm here to watch Glover. Oh, look at this guy. And then you're like, who's this guy?
Yeah, we were fortunate enough. I mean, Alexa Fogel I think is one of the best casting directors. I mean, she casts for David Simon. And you know, every choice that was presented to us was the choice that they ended up hiring.
There was no like, oh, no, we don't like this person who's next. They presented this cast and we said, we watched the auditions, we said yes. And I think, you know, I remember watching the dailies being like, oh my God, this is just incredible. And I think part of what Alexa does is, you know, casts incredibly well trained actors who seem like they're in a documentary, you know.
Yeah. So it's really, you know, when you saw the dailies, you were like, okay, these, like, we have a, we have fire on all positions here. So what's that like in the offices when you're making the shows of production, you guys, in effect, are starting to get excited. You see what's coming in.
You feel like it's, is there a specific feeling in the office when you know maybe you're writing a good one or you're not gonna jinx it? You know, I remember we were watching the first, you know, even after the pilot, when we're watching the first and second and third episodes where we watch all the cuts together in the office and all of you, you mean like the department. Going to John Langraff to the kernigs that on the show, we will watch together so we can start and stop and talk about all of our, just really be of one mind about it and not give conflicting notes at different times. And you know, we're all looking around like, this is like, this is, this is on a whole not level.
And you know, it, we've had that feeling before. I remember feeling it when we're watching Louie cuts, you know, but the other thing is, you know, with a lot of our shows, especially the half hours, you know, like I had a really good feeling that people would find the show and love it. I actually am amazed how much faster it's happened than I imagined because I think all these other shows took a year, just a word of mouth. People saying like, have you seen Louie?
It's like, we're not friends if you're not watching the show. And I'm so blown away by how fast both critics, both just the people, you know, are like everyone, it's just, it's doing extremely well. And the feedback is fantastic. People like get it and understand it and are cherishing it right away.
So that's that's that's that's blown my mind in a world where there's so much television. Right. You guys, someone call it Pete Teles. It's almost like there's something you're off this.
I wish there was like a mountain of television. Yeah, we were sort of kind of at the top, but I don't know what I would call that. I sort of wasn't that doesn't. I wish there was a guy in an executive position in a network who, Rick Kipper running Talley, how many shows there were on the air, like a long office of television.
You know, it proves that. Like there's too much good television and not enough great television and it's it's lovely to know when great television comes along. People people can find it and recognize it. But you guys, I joke, but all networks aware of this FX perhaps more most vocal about it and most articulate about expressing it, like it is a problem to get noticed.
I mean, there's the marketplace is completely flooded and there are a lot of good to great shows that just sort of get washed away or become essentially new shows, which you can survive out of this. I think that one of the problems is that there are a lot of pretty good shows. Well, that's all there is which I agree with, but I'm curious just from a, I think we have opinions about it, which we can discuss now as well, but from a network level. Do you have a theory internally why this was able to break through?
Well, shout out to FX Marketing Department, who I think is just, you know, incredible. And they, you know, they get these shows. I mean, they love them. How's it going?
I was asking about this. And it's not like we sort of outsourced this stuff. We have an in-house marketing group that is as passionate about FX as we are. And they really collaborated really well with Donald and just, you know, kind of had a great instinct as to what to do and how to tease it and how not to show it, but to tease it.
What did it weigh? Yeah. I mean, I'm not even interrupting. I mean, it was just that everything from the font of the credits, the bumper music, Atlanta Twitter feed is really good.
Like, you know, everything about like soup to nuts. It's part of like an entire piece. But it also takes a level of confidence because the billboards that were everywhere are three guys, one of which we know, but two of which we don't necessarily know with peaches in their mouth. And then a word that's a city.
And that communicates, it's completely appropriate for the show. But that's a leap of faith because you're not overdoing it. You're not trying to trick anyone or convince anyone. You're yelling.
It's not going to make the show for the poster. It's got 24 hours to save the present. Look, I think our marketing team, you know, they're not trying to sell you everything and explain the whole show in one image because you can't do that. You know, it's just got to be something iconic and arresting that at least allows you to get to the next point where you're really interested.
You're like, what is that? That looks really interesting. But there's too many other shows you see out there where there are just like five people standing around because they feel like they have to show the whole thing. They're all laughing.
It's just becomes generic and it just washes over. Or maybe more is crying. It becomes a big hit. So I know that he is obviously now Lando Calrissian.
And I've read that that doesn't necessarily slow down when Atlanta season two comes back, but it's like a factor. But what can you tell us about season two? Anything? I mean, it's just sort of in its most basic creative embryonic stage.
Yeah. I mean, they are at Donald's house right now writing, but it's going really well. I think we'll have all the scripts done before he goes off to Cloud City. To Cloud City.
But we don't have any, we haven't heard, we haven't read any scripts yet. But Donald's really excited about it. And we had one other thing about the show that I think is interesting because we were just talking about this with Donald yesterday. And he talked about how binary the internet is.
Like with everything, it's either love it or hate it. There's no sort of middle ground. And I think what's so kind of cool about the show is that it's all kind of very, you know, somewhat gray and in the middle and kind of getting a feeling that is neither, you know, all the way in one direction or the other. It's like the anti zeros and ones kind of show.
I thought it was like a really cool way of looking at it. I want to talk specifically about something in the finale, which is just another pretty magnificent episode. There's a scene when Earn has failed to get his jacket at Stricklove and he walks up to Paperboy and Darius on a couch in the middle field. And it's an incredible beautiful shot.
It's a kind of shot that you can only get in a show that is set in a place that is filmed in a place and filmed by people who have a sense of that place. I immediately feel transported to it. You can sort of hear, you know, I'm thinking also of the scene when they're waiting for the Uber driver. You sort of hear the underbrush.
You hear crickets and you feel like you're somewhere. But specifically in that scene when he walks up, nothing happens in that scene. They're eating sunflower seeds. Darius is wondering about what's the profit margins on them.
Earn as for Alfred's phone. Alfred's hot. It doesn't want to get up. That's the scene.
And I'm wondering that scene on paper must look like less than nothing. It's just people talking about stuff and everything that they say. It's literally like the goal of that scene is earning getting Alfred to give him a ride. And everything.
Some total of it is everything I love about the show. That takes a level of confidence that I'm blown away by that confidence exists in season one of something new. Well, it was, I mean, it's how many shows have it seen where two people are talking at the same time. And so I re-watched the finale the other night with my wife.
And I sort of, this time I was only listening to Darius talk about sunflower seeds. It was fantastic. It was a fantastic experience. That's a good scene too.
But so by the time that came around, by the time you're getting those scripts and you see what you're seeing, whether it's on a couch, at that point you know they can pull this off. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I mean, I'm also not, we're not sort of getting into the minutiae of like, oh, how are people going to know in this scene? It's such a, right at this point, you know it's such a visual show.
And you have the confidence that these guys know what they're doing. And so most of our thoughts on anything are more of the 10,000 foot level, you know, just making sure it's achieving what it wants to achieve and not getting caught in the weeds of like, how are you going to, how are you going to achieve people are talking about what's going on here? Yeah, right. So when talking about TV, one of the things that I'm passionate about is it's pretty exciting and fascinating and ultimately rewarding to watch small degrees of failure because TV's the one medium where those failures can be addressed and rectified.
And in fact, you can watch someone fail a little bit and succeed bigger and take swings basically, gain another chance at bat. What is, and you don't speak specifically about Atlanta, just in general, there's an internal philosophy about this. What is the effects attitude towards little failures? Does that make sense?
Where you know an episode, you're invested in a person or a couple people in a creative vision and you know that episode seven might be a little weak or it might be a little bagger. It might have been not too much that they can chew. That's part of, is that baked into the process? Yeah, I don't know if it's baked into the process but don't overreact, just relax.
Like, try and help the creator make that episode the best episode it can be and hopefully know that this is not going to be this thing that's going to, I think if you're worried that like, oh my god, this is going to be the episode where it's going to make people jump out of the show, you're just going to play tight and you have to just find a way to be more constructive and not kind of overly worried about it. And at the same time, don't bury your head in the sand and I think if we see someone really walking down the wrong path, we're pretty vocal about it but it's collaboration. I was curious about, we can start talking a little bit more generally unless you have one last one. The BAN episode for people who don't know it by its title, that's the episode that's essentially like the BET television show, Don't Go Over Doesn't Appear in the episode at all.
He's the long blue star of the show, he directed that episode, it has a lot of amazing sketches and commercials and it's just completely out there. It's episode five, I think, of season one, something like that. Yeah, I think we read it like as the seventh or eighth and it moved up. I think it's like, also by that time, you're like, okay, you know, this seems totally crazy.
And that's also a two episode run where I think he only appears in one scene. What's the, how are you, I mean, obviously exciting is a turn down great but it definitely in the collaboration when you're reading these scripts and you're fully invested, are you as excited as we are as viewers or there has to be some old TV muscle in your brain being like, wait a second now. You know, if you're not a little bit scared or nervous or just like, really? Like, then maybe you're not, you know, maybe you're playing it too safe, right?
And so I think on all these shows, there's been moments where you're like, whoa, like this is, you know, it's funny and I think it still is sort of continuing the Paperboy storyline and so I understand how it fits in and it's funny and it's, you know, and it has a point of view and so, you know, just because earned is apparent and doesn't, you know, like, as long as it's compelling, I think it's good. And you know, one thing we always say is like, just don't, just don't be boring, just be compelling, be surprising. And that's, you know, as a viewer, that's really what I want to do. I want to be surprised and feel like I'm in the hands of a really good storyteller.
If I feel those two things, I mean... I think that it almost, it doesn't get talked about enough about the show is that there is a workplace comedy in it. There is a world there, won't they? There is a degree to which it's working off of like the Friends model of like people hanging out.
And there's a lot of traditional television stuff inside of Atlanta. It's just all this formal invention and I think it's so much style and so much of this point of view, which is just the most remarkable thing about it. Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by Sonos. Sonos is the smart speaker system that streams all of your favorite music to any room or every room.
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Vancouver, four white guys opening up a hipster hot dog truck in downtown Vancouver. You're looking at me. I'm not even listening. But do you feel like in a copycat entry you're going to start seeing a lot of like...
We're deep in development on Winnipeg. Sorry. It's just like minor league hockey players who hang out at it. Yeah.
I think what I would hope is that the trend is just these more of these kind of a turd, real strong points of view show. I mean, part of my... Our jobs is to stay ahead of it and not copy what we've done and try and find something new and original. I've found that almost everything we've done, success or failure, gets something else that comes in.
I feel like it's... For me, it's been a 14-year process. I think John Langgraf-Shire and I have been working together for over 12 years. It's been this long process.
It's brick by brick and things be at other things. So, yeah, this will lead to something. It's not going to be the thing that you think it will, but it will... That's a hard-known Vancouver.
It's not a hard-known. It's definitely like... If he wants to develop it, I think it's what I heard. Yeah.
I think a lot of widespread panic in the soundtrack. A lot of me-90s. That's a hard-known. Virginia Jambans.
This is the guy who had the Paperboard track as an MP3. It was my ringtone. I feel like TCA, you got a number. You got a mainstream bass?
It's going back. You got to target your pitches, man. Well, I think one thing that people don't appreciate fully is that the job that you guys have is you're obviously in the weeds day-to-day. You are making a show like Atlanta and overseeing it being on the air.
But the bulk of your job is two years down the line. We're talking about how Atlanta has affected TV in 2016. You already deep in conversations about what you'll have on the air in 2018 and potentially beyond. So, if people are being so reactive and saying, well, you do it, you do it, you do it, you do it, you do it, you do it, you do it, you do it, you do it, you do it.
That's that time it's already passed, right? Yeah. Yeah. Right.
But it still is... I do think each show will lead to something else. And we have looked to me, I think the show that to me is the most like Atlanta, in my mind, is better things. In that it's someone's sort of incredible original point of view.
And so, I mean, we were just so amazing that we ended up with both of these shows at the same time. I mean, I think we didn't want to stack them back to back on the same night. I think we had the ability to put them on the same week, but on different nights. So, they can sort of coexist and be their own shows.
But I think those shows remind me a lot of each other. And I mean, that's more what I like more shows with diverse cast and creators that be fantastic. Yeah. And hopefully we'll find those.
But what Atlanta to me is just it's more just like someone's singular original vision, more of that would be great. One thing that we've been talking about a lot, and I'm sure we're not the one people having this conversation, is that the TV that feels most vibrant and exciting in 2016 tends to be in a half hour format or in the anthology series format. Now, it's no coincidence then that your network excels in both of those and has invested heavily in almost as if you're... It's almost like good investment.
You were well protected for whatever the market was demanding this year because you invested heavily in those particular stocks. What are your thoughts now on the state of the drama? Or the hour long show? I mean, I don't know since there's as much drama in Atlanta and some of your half hours and anything else.
Maybe we don't use those terms anymore. But the serialize continuing hour long show. Yeah. I mean, part of why we got into the limited series business was there was something that was feeling stale and predictable about the sort of six years, a 60, 60, 70 hour movie.
And one thing we tried, we were hearing pitches of things that, you know, well, maybe this could be two years, maybe this could be three years. And instead of letting the business dictate the creative, we thought, okay, let's let the creative dictate business. We'll figure out how to make a business out of limited series. And you know, it's sort of...
That's blown up creatively in a good way, the one hour format. I think the way these half hours have by really by sort of saying, well, this show could be anything it wants to be. So let's do this, let's do this. And I feel like the feeling of watching Fargo is so exhilarating because how many 10 hour movies have you seen in your life, right?
Right. And so it's just, it's a different, it's a different animal. And so we constantly, we'll, someone will figure out how to look, there are a lot of really good dramas on our network and on other networks. And someone else will figure out a way to do a continuing scripted one hour that says mind blowing as any of these other shows that we're talking about.
Is there a reason, I mean, do you think that it's just something that dovetails with the kind of shattered attention spans of people that we have now that people are more willing to experiment with their time with a 32 minute show or a 28 minute show than they are with a 50. I mean, we talk about this all the time, even with something that we adored like Night Of or trying to give another example, but like, you know, solid 57 minute runtime, like in a world that is our world that you're just like, this is just a lot of things. It feels daunting. It feels daunting where I'm like, oh, I got an Atlanta on the DVR or something like that.
I'm like, great. Or even starting something. Yeah. It just feels less.
I agree that sometimes it just feels like, you know, so much work to catch up like on a show like the Americans. But well worth it. Yes. Chris, I just been in the Christmas with Vancouver just like shaping.
Okay. I can't wait. I think it still comes from, you know, our instinct is just finding something really different and original. And so, like, I think something feels really different and original and it's an hour, you know, each week, people will find it and I think church it if it's different.
And I think there's, you know, not only are you competing with every show on the air right now, you're competing with every show that's on the season, you're competing with every show that's ever been made in the history of television, you're competing with every movie that's ever been made. I think it's less- And video games and Facebook. Yeah. You gotta just be, you gotta give people a reason to pick the show and watch the show.
And I think, like, if you can tap into something that's hitting the collective consciousness, I think that really helps that you can have a conversation about it. And I think, you know, Atlanta feels like one of these shows where it reminds me of an hour that people are watching on a weekly basis and talking about that episode. And that's so cool that, you know, there can be that conversation about shows and especially, I just don't remember the last time people are, you know, talking about a half hour show on a sort of a weekly basis as if it's like, you know from- Yeah, you just sort of answered my question, but I mean, like, we talk about this sort of fake TV championship belt that we give out. And I think that at this point, Atlanta has been like standing on top at the end of the Caves match showing everybody the belt for about eight weeks now.
But this show somehow, and I haven't been able to articulate it to myself, I don't even know if we've been able to articulate it to each other. So maybe you can. How did it do that? How are we at a point where a 30-minute dramedy for lack of a better description or comment, you know, like whatever?
Is able to keep people like thrones or lost or- Eventy. And actually, you know, I had the, I think that I wouldn't have wanted to binge Atlanta. I wouldn't have wanted to watch Atlanta in a five hour burst. No, because I don't, I mean, people will do it and I think they'll still really enjoy it.
And I don't want to, you know, discourage anyone from binging it as a scene. But I think that the weekly process really allows you the distance to appreciate the specific episode, you know, because it is, you know, and I think one thing that was so great about the finale is that, you know, because some of the episodes are so different, you sort of forget that you got launched on a journey at the beginning and somehow you didn't even realize you were on a plane and all of a sudden you get to the end and you're like, oh my god, they just landed this plane for season one and I didn't even realize it. And I mean, I remember watching The Rough Cut and Elevators comes on and I, I, I, I, I, I like, I teared popped out of my eye. I'm just like sort of both the emotion of like being immersed in the show and just sort of being in awe of, oh my god, you know, we really told a complete stu, you know, it was a five hour movie in a way.
There's a stage outcast at the end, which is just- That song too. It's just telling you to just think fingers. That's perfect. I think that song for a lot of people represents something and there's like a lot of, like sort of just echoes through, you're watching it, this character is listening to this song, but also that person like Glover is playing it.
So you're kind of like aware of the process that's happening and that song is about the sort of how hard it is to be creative, a creative person and one express yourself in the world and then you see this active expression and you're like, they did it, I can't believe it. And this song is playing, which is both something I listened to, you know, in, you know, 15 years ago and I'm listening to now and I'm listening to within the show that I love. I mean, there's a lot of layers to that experience. I mean, a lot of my friends were just like, holy shit, if you were happening.
If you listen to the lyrics of the song, it's very connected. But let's say you didn't, it's a feeling, right? And it's a feeling that's perfectly appropriate for that moment. It's almost like it's like score for, you know, what earns going through right now.
So it really hits you with sort of both barrels. I think the metaphor you got about the playing fits perfectly with what you were saying about what you wanted, what I think many people want in their television, which is, I just want to go back to it because it's trickier, I think than it even sounds, which is you want to go on an unexpected journey, you want to trust the driver. Like you want to go on a plane to an unknown destination, but you've got to have faith in the pilot. Yeah.
It's never going to play into an unknown destination. Absolutely right. It's not the moment when you dive out of a show, maybe consciously or unconsciously, probably because you've lost faith in the pilot. Yes, but you know, it's building that confidence.
You want to trust someone that you feel scared of getting burned, building confidence in someone new. I mean, that relationship turned the mind to the nature of your reality. Nice job. Now, if elevators have been played instrumental on a player piano, I would have been like, this is really genius.
No, but that is, that to me is the trickiest thing to balance the trickiest thing to man it. Don't, as you said, pull it off and surprise even you in the making of it. But in the big picture, I think what this conversation has been highlighting is that sort of surprise unsettling the audience is one of the last cards left in the deck. And there's a way to do it that is, I think the cheap way it's pure shock and I'll say something like what Walking Dead does to my mind is in that category.
You don't have to be on the record saying one thing or the other about it. But when we're talking about dramas, you were saying how people started to feel that that template of the 12 episodes, the 60 years got a little, that little tiger, you know, because it would be a death in episode, a penultimate episode, an episode 12 would end with a nice music montage and then we'd bring the whole gang back together again. But the other thing the limited series model does is all the sacred cows are now fair game. You watch a show we sort of know now, even if it's a avant-garde drama, Don Draper's gonna survive until season six or seven or depending on how unless they matter if I to the studio.
If it's limited series, who knows? And then we get the chance to do it again, potentially with the same pilot. And that's a relationship that can build and can be built upon. But that is essentially a new way of engaging with TV.
We fit. Oh, go ahead. No, no, no. No, and it's like how many times can you go to the well of the death of someone to?
I mean, really it's, you know, or murder, it's sort of has lost its punch unless it's really rooted in character. And, you know, I still, the moment of the end of the pilot of the shield is still something forever etched in my, it's the thing that made me, you know, beg to go work at FX. And it's, you know, it's, it's one of the few holy shit moments that works on every level of like, oh my God, you know, I can't believe this guy just did this and it tells me so much about his character and I'm still conflicted about this character, even though he just did it. You know, and I think, you know, we're all chasing the fine, these holy shit moments and it's really hard to be original there.
So you guys feel like, so you obviously have, you're only going to be able to talk into detail about certain elements of this boat. You know, you have Americans that's in multi-season, you had Sons of Anarchy, which was a long run, shield was a long run. Is there still value to having almost like an innings eater kind of drama like that that is going to take up like a lot of time and have that long run? Oh, for sure.
I mean, it's, it's for, for a multitude of reasons. It's, you know, it usually these shows grow in audiences over time. It's a fantastic business to be in. Yeah, I mean, defines, I mean, it's probably more brand finding than anything else.
And so, you know, everyone wants to find their Sons of Anarchy, their Game of Thrones. And so, yeah, that's, that's still the, that's the holy grail and you know, you can't give up on that search. I can't let Nick go without bringing my favorite subjects, or Chris can put on his headphones or something. But you did mention, you know, these long running shows tend to build audiences.
They go build a claim, the thing about the Americans, which I still think is the best, certainly the best drama on TV. I think, I'm not sure, Atlanta and the Americans are my favorite shows of the year. I'm not just saying that because you're in the room. But the Americans, you know, has been, has gotten better and better at quality every year.
It's gotten more and more engaging every year. The audience has not grown necessarily in any enormous, pre-shable ways, at least that I can divine. And yet this year, it broke through at the Emmys. And I don't even know if we had this conversation, but I certainly had this conversation with others, that a lot of people felt that, well, the show is the show, it's as good as it is.
And at this point, it probably won't get the Emmys attention because, you know, for the same reason that Chris might not watch it, it takes a lot of homework to catch up. And it's, but yet this year it did break through. What was the reaction? Were you surprised about that?
Obviously, you were gratified. What was, what did that mean internally to the network? I had, I kind of felt like Linus with the football every year. And so, you know, I think this was the year where like, you know what, I'm not going to fall for it.
I'm just going to get disappointed again. But, but it was, you know, we were all screaming when the nominations came out. Like, I think partly it was, you know, I think when you have all these critics and people out there, you know, keeping on the meme that this is the great show. This is the best show in television.
I think at some point that, you know, inspires more people to catch up and watch it, or it's just, you know, it's like a self-fulfilling prophecy. And people sort of come back to the show and they realize, yeah, this is the best show on television, or one of the best shows on television. And I think it's just without that drum beat from like you guys and then, you know, one of those guys. One of those guys.
I'm a drummer. I'm a drummer. I'm a drummer. I'm a drummer.
Maybe two. You know, it just without that drum beat, this doesn't happen. And maybe, you know, we're also living in an age where that kind of recommendation, you know, online can really thrive. And there can be this consensus.
But it's still just remarkable to me and in a wonderful way that a show that never let the ratings roll on fire, not only was able to flourish and thrive, but you've now given it, you gave it its runway. You know, you said, okay, we're going to be two more seasons. You're going to end the story the way you want to end it. Without getting into the financial weeds of how this makes sense because that's, you know, that's probably proprietary information.
Anyway, explain the value of that decision making and that investment for your side of the desk. We talk about this because it's one of the steps of the dentist system, you know, from, it's always something for the other thing. But the D is demonstrate value. And I think, um, yeah, a perfect world.
You have something that is both a huge, you know, critical success and a big rating success. And that's the grand slam home run. That's what you want. You're not every show is not going to be that.
And so, you know, I think you just need a show to demonstrate, you know, you know, how the Americans is very valuable to us part part of what our jobs are is like, I'm, we're marketing a brand of FX that by the whole roll up of all these shows. And so, um, if you can have a show even before it sort of broke through in the, I mean, kind of words that critics are talking about as being one of the best shows in television, that has value. So, you know, you can't have a whole roster of, of these kinds of shows. And when you say value in terms of representing the brand, selling the brand, attracting talent, yeah, you're, you're, you're, you're in, you know, in top 10 conversations at the end of every year, you're, you know, you're represented in a FIs 10 best shows of the year.
You're, you're in a lot of conversations and not this one on this podcast. But it is, I can see how it almost be like if you were a college football team, right, maybe you go like 10 and two, but six guys get drafted. It's like you, there's ways to show what you are beyond just like, we won the national championship of readings or whatever, but that's for personality. But I get it.
But she takes the macro viewpoint that you were talking about in relation to managing the show as well. You have to take a long view as to what every piece of the puzzle means and as more than just that puzzle piece. Yeah. And, um, you know, like the, it's all a roll up, right?
We're both the, the individual shows, but we're also the roll up of all these shows together. And I would hope at this point, like knowing that it's a show from FX, at least people will stand and say, okay, like, like, I'll get a chance. I think that's why Chris wants to give you exclusive first look at Vancouver. I mean, there are other people in conversation.
Oh, even talking around the town. National Geographic is very competitive on the show. Yeah. I think it's scripted.
I wanted to actually ask you one more thing before we let you go. We've been doing this future of movies package on, on the regular this week where we've been talking a bunch of different places, like Bum House horror movies, folks, and we have a piece going soon that talks a lot about basically the struggle to get what would have been the movie version of the Americans or the movie version of Atlanta or the movie version of better things. So basically, almost impossible to release on a mass level right now. You have to make them in the other, like moonlight or you have to do, you have to have Dr.
Strange in it. I was wondering if over the course of the last decade and a half that you've been working with FX, whether or not you've noticed that shift, whether or not you've seen, I mean, you guys have obviously started, you know, you work with incredibly talented people, you have more and more talented people probably banging on your door asking if you're interested in Vancouver or what have you, like, whether or not you're noticing that shift where because the movies have become kind of a proposition where it's like these blockbusters and a lot of animated fair and a lot of intellectual, like, you know, IP that they're working on. But like you guys are you guys kind of seeing a change in the landscape where television is taken over a large part of scripted drama, scripted comedy that the movies just don't have time for anymore. Oh, yeah.
I mean, it's, you know, look, we've noticed it. I mean, in that lots of, you know, we'll sit down with actors who are so, you know, frustrated with the experience of, you know, serving the plot, you know, and I think, you know, TV could always be, you know, much more character based, but I think, you know, it's sort of in the post-Sopranos world. I mean, the idea of, you know, a 60-hour movie, you know, you know, who thought you could ever make a mob movie better than Godfather in Fela's? And, you know, I think, you know, Sopranos is in, you know, maybe it's not necessarily all about the mob, but it's in that conversation because it's, you're all the scenes that end up on the cutting room floor for most of these movies are part of, you know, of part of these character dramas.
And so, look, yeah, no, and we feel it, you know, I mean, you know, when you're starting out, you know, the feature agents, you know, you sort of make an inquiry about a certain actor, you know, and it's gone from fuck off to, yeah, let's take a look at that script. So yeah, you can, you can, you can definitely feel it. And it was even before the limited series stuff, which is now, you know, there are eight to 10-hour movies. It's like, well, this is just a chunk out of someone's time that's going to take the length of any movie.
So that should affect it. And, you know, and so it's, you know, you're feeling like there's a certain amount of parody, if not, you know, I think actors are artists, right? And I think that, you know, I think there's, you know, I don't think people want to be wearing a green suit all day. No, no, and I also think that, you know, Atlanta had been a movie and it was, you know, say the first two episodes, maybe the last two episodes, you know what I mean?
And the only commercial. Yeah, or whatever you wanted to do. And the musical car. Yeah, but, you know, you know, what movies are, they're such a big bet, right?
And that you have to sort of go all in on them, just even a, a smallishment, we just get distributed and pay everyone. It's, it's a fairly big bet. And I think TV is still, again, we have, we have a little bit of a laboratory. We can sort of make a pilot and then, you know, see if that, if it's all working there and then put it on.
We just, we don't have to, it's a little more incremental as you get on the air. You don't have to spend, you know, $150 million just to see if something original can work. And so unless it's about Western Canada, which is, that's his pay to play deal. I think he's looking at it.
I really know anything, sure you love all your babies equally, anything coming from FX soonish that we should be excited about, she keep on our air. Yeah, I mean, we're, I'm really excited about Legion and Taboo, which are coming in the, in the new year. That's Taboo's Tom Hardy. Yeah.
And I mean, it's, it. Tom Chick Hardy, right? Chips. Chips.
Sorry. How did you, did you get any face time with chips? Tom Hardy was a fantastic guest. So, but some of us have.
I mean, Tom is, is so incredible in this and he's super committed and Steve Knight is such a fantastic writer and creator. And you know, look, on paper, you know, you know, if you said, oh yeah, there's a show that takes place in, you know, London in, in 1813 in the middle of the, you know, war of 1812, you know, about sort of a rivalry with someone with the East India Company and the, and the Crown and the colonies, you know, said, I don't know if that's on brand. And we read the script, you know, with Tom attached. And I mean, it is, you know, it is so much of a sort of a, of a show of what we do.
I mean, it is, you know, it does not feel period, even though it's incredibly authentic. And it's just Tom's fantastic. And we're really excited about it. And Legion is, you know, so much of like a different way to imagine a superhero movie.
Yeah. And so much of a character piece. And you know, if you're out there wondering, you know, if, you know, like the love child of Wes Anderson and Stanley Kubrick directed a X-Men movie, what that would look like, hopefully, you know, you're going to get some kind of version of that. I'm interested in that.
I'm also interested in, to have a good idea. I'm also interested in pitching Tom Hardy and Steve Knight, a remake of their film, Lock, with the invisible car from Atlanta. Which I think would really, you actually have to get in the FX fan at Universal. That's really, that's right.
Alright, Nick, right. Thank you so much for joining us. Pleasure being here. So nice to have you and great job.
It's just a great, great job. See you Monday. Thanks again to Sonos for sponsoring us today. I'm going to have a show of music that's about the next week.
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