EP018 对话《纽约客》作者刘亦灵：在算法和审查中寻找灵魂自由的舞动 A conversation with Yi-Ling Liu on 'Wall Dancers'

【聊了什么 The What】 在这期节目中，我们邀请到了新生代作家 Yi-Ling Liu（刘亦灵），深入聊聊她刚刚出版的英文新书 The Wall Dancers: Searching for Freedom and Connection on the Chinese Internet。 亦灵是我们的老朋友，也是一位长期关注中国网络、文化及科技领域的自由撰稿人，曾为《纽约客》等媒体撰写相关文章。这本书对我们来说尤为特别——它是近年来为数不多以“人”为核心，而非聚焦于商业或地缘政治的、关于中国的英文非虚构作品。 书名中的核心隐喻是“戴着镣铐跳舞“，这是一个任何在中国互联网上有过亲身体验的人都不陌生的意象。西方媒体对中国互联网的叙事，往往侧重于其封闭性与禁锢感，而刘亦灵则选择透过个体的选择，去呈现中国光怪陆离互联网社群独特的韧性，戏剧张力，和无处不在的隐秘抵抗。 在中国特有的网络与科技环境中，她的观察跟随着几位极具代表性的角色：从曾经的微博审查员刘力朋、女权活动家吕频，到成都的说唱歌手Kafe.Hu、科幻作家陈楸帆，以及从警察转型为同志社交软件 CEO 的马保力。通过这些人的故事，串联起过去三十年中国互联网的激荡与变迁。 在香港出生长大，美国接受教育的亦灵在观察中国时有一种疏离而又颗粒度极高的写作风格。她到底怎么选中了这些主人公，又怎样完成了这部历时数年的大部头？在这本独特的大部头发布之际，中外互联网的变迁又让她有了哪些最新的反思？本期节目因为种种原因我们将只在墙外发布。这也是亦灵首次用中文接受采访——主播安蕤和马修将作为读者，同行和朋友进行发问。 In this episode, we are joined writer Yi-Ling Liu to talk in depth about her newly published English-language book, The Wall Dancers: Searching for Freedom and Connection on the Chinese Internet. Yi-Ling is an old friend of the show and a longtime freelance writer focused on China’s internet, culture, and technology, with work published in outlets including The New Yorker. This book feels especially important to us because it is one of the few recent English-language nonfiction books about China that places people, rather than business or geopolitics, at its center. The book’s central metaphor is “dancing in shackles,” an image that is immediately familiar to anyone with lived experience of the Chinese internet. Western media narratives about China’s online world often emphasize its closedness and sense of constraint. Yi-Ling, by contrast, chooses to focus on individual choices, revealing the resilience, dramatic tension, and ever-present undercurrents of quiet resistance within China’s strange and dazzling online communities. Within China’s highly specific internet and technological environment, her reporting follows several deeply representative figures: former Weibo censor Liu Lipeng, feminist activist Lü Pin, Chengdu rapper Kafe.Hu, science fiction writer Chen Qiufan, and Ma Baoli, a former police officer who later became the CEO of a gay social networking app. Through their stories, she traces the turbulence and transformation of China’s internet over the past three decades. Born and raised in Hong Kong and educated in the United States, Yi-Ling brings to her observations on China a writing style that is both detached and richly textured. How did she choose these protagonists, and how did she complete this sweeping work over the course of several years? Now that this distinctive book has been published, how have recent changes in both Chinese and global internet culture shaped her latest reflections? For various reasons, this episode will only be released outside the Great Firewall. It is also Yi-Ling’s first time being interviewed in Chinese. Hosts Anrui and Matthew join the conversation as readers, peers, and friends. 【时间轴 The When】 00:43 - Yi-Ling和《墙之舞者》——“在互联网上寻找自由与连接” 14:43 - 写作视角“以人为中心”的深度报道过程 20:19 - 避开空投记者陷阱，深入社群深度访谈 28:26 - 拾荒式写作：将破碎的社交媒体信息拼凑成口述历史 44:37 - 意外的反响：西方读者也要开始共舞了吗？ 53:11 - AI陪伴是否会加剧社会的脱节与孤独 56:09 - 结语及新书购买信息 00:43 – Yi-Ling and The Wall Dancers: “Searching for freedom and connection on the internet” 14:43 – A human-centered approach to deeply reported writing 20:19 – Avoiding the parachute-journalist trap through deep community reporting 28:26 – Ragpicker-style writing: piecing together fragmented social media traces into oral history 44:37 – An unexpected response: are Western readers beginning to dance too? 53:11 – Could AI companionship deepen social disconnection and loneliness? 56:09 – Closing remarks and information on how to purchase the book 【我们是谁 Who We Are】 新新人类是一档由几个与互联网一起长大的新生代科技记者主持的播客，致力于站在中美交汇点上，解读全球科技潮流与人文的交织。 马修：一个网瘾晚期的全职养猫人 杜安蕤：一个想当裁缝的科技/文化撰稿人 一闻：一个对地铁比手机更上瘾的记者 【支持我们 Please Support Us】 如果喜欢这期节目并愿意支持我们： 海外用户：patreon.com/c/pixelperfect_xxrl 海内用户：afdian.com/a/pixelperfectpod 商务合作邮箱：[email protected] If you like our show and want to support us, please consider the following: Those Abroad: patreon.com/c/pixelperfect_xxrl Those in China: afdian.com/a/pixelperfectpod Business Inquiries Email: [email protected]