Ep208: Chris Murphy (Sloan)

It's all in one. I've been on my life too. That's okay. That's okay. That's okay. That's okay. That's okay. That's okay. That's okay. That's okay. That's okay.

That's like a science thing, right? Indeed, indeed, indeed. It is a science thing. It is a science place. It is a scientific fact that we are all up in your face. It is time for the one, the only, Protonic Reversal. Very, very special treat for you today. We're talking to the one and only Mr. Chris Murphy of Sloan. Chris, welcome to the show, man. Hey, what are you talking about? Thank you. I've seen your list of guests. I'm happy to get in there. This is my cred grab. This is nothing. You know, it's funny because I went down to the bank to try to deposit some of this indie cred, and they said, sir, this is not legal tender.

But, yeah. I don't know if you know the... Does everyone know the expression? I guess it would be from the Bible. And my take on it is, man cannot live on cred alone. It's true. It's hard to put food on your family. And it's harder to do so with cred. Yeah. I'm really happy to have you, man. This is really cool. I'm actually a really big Sloan fan. Like, if you look at the different people that have been on over the years, you know, there's certainly a good representation of...

you know, angry dude rock, et cetera. I think Sloan's fantastic. And I think it's awesome that I just had Patrick Tate Fleming from Gloom Balloon and Poison Control Center on recently. And he's the one who introduced me to you guys. And get this, they were a band on tour. And I took them to Amoeba Records in Berkeley, as you know, so everyone can do some record shopping. And he got two Sloan CDs and said, you will love this. And if you don't...

I will personally refund your money. And I was so blown away that a band on tour, like a small band on tour, let's be clear, would believe in a band that much to be like, wow, I will listen to this band. Are you kidding me? Of course I'm going to listen to it. And I loved it. It was great. And that was Between the Bridges and Navy Blues. And you probably could not have planned a better introduction for me as something of a rocker to what you guys do. Yep. Yep. Those come with a money back guarantee. A lot of our records don't. So that's a...

So wait a minute. So those records came out in 98 and 99. So what year are you talking about? Was it at the time or was later? No, this is a lot later. This is probably about 10 years ago, maybe something along those lines. So I knew of you guys, and I think I'd maybe like heard a song or something, but you were always on my list of, oh yeah, I need to remember to dive deeper into that discography. Because even back then. That's where we remain. For a lot of people. I kind of feel like it's almost like, there's so much slow in it. It's like the fall or something. Like where do you start with the fall, right? And not that you guys sound like the fall, but there's just so much the fall. And so much of it's great, but oh my God, where to start?

Yes. Well, I always wanted to be a band that had a giant body of work and that, you know, had eras, like defined eras, or not that we're trying to do that, you know. But, you know, you can say, oh, then there's this era, then there's their mid-period. Our mid-period keeps changing. It used to be our mid-period was 2000, and now our mid-period was, whatever, 15 years ago it was, 2005. But, you know, our band has been going since 91. And, you know, anyway, so, yes, we have a giant body of work, and it's a lot to chew off. It's like, oh, that's like reading an encyclopedia or whatever. Do you start with A and go away to Z, or do you start with the good Stephanie M's?

Right. So I would say the records that you're talking about, Navy Blues from 98 and Between the Bridges. Between the Bridges is 99, right? Well, the thing is, Between the Bridges is the beginning of the end, like our commercial dip. We also have kind of two careers, like one in Canada where we're on the radio and we have distributed by major labels and stuff like that. We had videos and not to mention in Canada, there's a whole grant system for getting...

getting money for videos and stuff like that, and Canadian content regulations that would have been so like, okay, and that was the Foo Fighters, and then coming up with Sloan and the Red Hot Chili Peppers, as if we're hanging with these millionaires or playing Wembley. But we go to the States, and we don't enjoy any of that. Where we started, we had our first two records come out on Geffen, and that was big news in Canada, and huge news in Halifax, Nova Scotia, where we're from. It was like, what? Are you kidding me? So we were given the tools to climb the mountain and never climb the mountain. It was exciting to be signed, but we didn't really...

Anyway, so I guess I'm sort of already into my life story. So first of all, I think it's awesome. I'm sorry that I thought you still live in Halifax. It's been years. You live in Toronto. I don't know. I should know that. But the thing is, this show is literally just me doing everything. I'm sitting here with a broom dusting up afterwards, so I don't feel that bad about it. But I think Sloan is very interesting, and it's very interesting that you came up in that Canadian system, because the Canadian system where it...

Artists get a chance. They get a chance to, and that's just it, right? It's a chance. It's a chance to be heard, but if you don't have the goods, it's not going to connect. It amounts to the same thing. It's like a lot of shit rises to the top in the grant system, the same as in the United States where...

I don't know, it's a free market or whatever. Like a lot of, you know, there's a lot of crap rises to the top in the States too. And a lot of stuff, you know, in Canada, there are, you know, Nickelback is from Canada. You know, they didn't really, they don't need to lean on Canadian content regulations. And then maybe to discuss, to just say what that is, you know, in an effort to sort of protect Canadian culture, you know, the Canadian government has made it so that broadcasters have to play a certain percentage. And I don't remember what it is, and it's always changing, but they have to play a certain percentage of Canadian music in order to have their broadcast license.

So they don't want to play it. When you're the rock station in Canada, you're psyched that Nickelback exists because it satisfies all that Canadian content stuff. You know what I mean? They eat up all the Canadian content. You can get the empty rage of Nickelback to fill your quota. Yeah, there are a lot of Canadian groups that are internationally huge, from Nickelback to, I don't know, Shania Twain.

Lots of people. I mean, those are two hilariously disparate examples. Brian Adams. Yeah, where's that collaboration record, right? Well, the other thing is to qualify for Canadian content, and I don't mean to make this the crux of my stay here. People find this really interesting that don't know the system, so please, I would love to hear from you. Well, anyway, I don't even know the system, but you have to have a system. It's not only that you were born in Canada, but then there's like, where was it? Who's the producer? Who's the record company? And all that kind of stuff. So someone like Brian Adams, who was born in Canada.

some of his records didn't qualify for Canadian content. And so, you know, he came out against Canadian content that it's hurting. It's like, you know, he would say like, shit rises to the top. I can name a lot of Canadian groups. You wouldn't know, but they're big here or, you know, and they're terrible because they're propped up by that system. And it's like, and it's not real economics. It's like, yeah, we're going to give you all this money to make a video.

By the way, nobody's interested in your band. There's no command for this whatsoever, but you have the budget to do this. But I can't shit on it because I benefited from it. But I've seen it working for terrible acts and, you know, whatever. It doesn't really have anything to do with anything except for, in Canada, we're perceived as being this big act. And in the States, we are just like an indie rock band or whatever. And we play in clubs. And as we head south, we get smaller and smaller. Like, you know, there are some border towns where they got Detroit and Seattle. You know, it'd be like, oh, they're playing a big club.

Yeah, for some reason, I was thinking of the U.S.-Mexico border. I'm like, of course not. You're a Canadian band. Oh, yeah. We never made it past there. Big in Calexico. What do I know? But I think it's interesting because it's almost like a Sparks or something. Sparks, brilliant pop band. So great. They put out so many good records. But in the U.S., it just kind of rolls before swine. But you go to England, they're like, oh, you know Sparks? Come out of my house. And they're treated very reverentially. And people are really into the art. And you never quite know how stuff's going to hit. But I think it's interesting. I would say for Sloan, it's an example of the system working. And again, I'm going to double back on the fact that I don't think it would have worked if the songs weren't there.

Perhaps not. I mean, that's a weird position for me to talk about. You don't need to answer that, Chris, if you don't want to. I mean, I am an advocate of the band, and I think that, you know, I come from the Maritime Provinces. I was raised Catholic. Like, I have a self-deprecating nature. But on the other hand, I think that Sloan is one of the great bands, and we're making a giant body of work that can't be denied. Like, even though people might not give a shit about us in the present, you know, I'm...

waiting for an apology issue in Mojo. It's like, why didn't we write about these guys? Right, exactly. The big mea culpa, if you will, yeah. Yeah. I sometimes say, we're not making records for you, we're making records for rock journalists in the future. Well, because it's for the people that it's for, and the people that it's for deeply appreciate. And they appreciate when you, like, that it's, like, it's smart, too. You know, there are references, rock and roll references in the lyrics, but it's, like, done in a clever way and not in, like, a, they're doing that. Like, it's something that, it's mana for people that, like, work in record stores, I guess. That's not really a...

but it's that it's that model for music yes and i am and i am from that time and i would say that we are um I don't mean to speak for those other guys, but, you know, I am a fan of music more than I'm an artist. Like, I just, I'm just sort of like, what would I want my favorite band to do? And, you know, we are also an experiment in democracy where we are four people that run the thing together and we split the money four ways no matter what, no matter who writes what. And, you know, I've often said, like, there's room for resentment in that setup, you know, if you think that you're doing, if you're carrying all the weight. But it's, you know, but otherwise you're in the police or Nirvana and one guy is kind of responsible for doing everything.

And then he sort of suggests, maybe I should be compensated for that. And then that's the end of the band. Yeah, and then the whole thing falls apart. And so what you're doing is you're trading short-term comfort or maybe talent recognition for long-term sustainability. And I find that fascinating because most bands don't even think about it in terms of like, oh, what is my career going to look like 10, 15, 20 years from now? Am I still going to be able to do this thing that gives me joy and it seems to connect with people? And what does that look like? Rather than just like, oh yeah, it sure would be cool to get 75% for this song that I wrote, but that's not the way we're going to do it.

But that's all we thought about when we started. And I don't mean to pretend that we knew how to sustain a career or anything like that, but we wanted the band founded in fairness and in a way that would make us last as long. Every decision we make has always been, for me, what would make us last the longest. Do you want to play this show? It's sponsored by a beer company. It's like, oh, I don't want to do that. But at the same time...

And we have a manager who would always give us sort of like comical false choices. Like, hey, do you want to do this show? You know, you get $20,000 if you play this sponsored show. Or you can get $3,500 for this. You know, do you want to play the volleyball? Do you want to be the halftime at this volleyball event? It's like, no. Okay, or you can play whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. False dichotomies. Yeah, yeah. Yes, but, you know, we've done lots of stuff that I'm embarrassed of. But I feel like we kept all of the regrettable stuff off of the records. We didn't have to write. We've only just done whatever we wanted to do.

the only people's bullshit that I've had to put up with is just the other guys in the band. And that's enough. I think that we're a really successful democracy, a really successful asymmetrical balance where not everybody does the same amount of work, but I can think about it in a way that I feel it doesn't make me bitter. I'm happy about everything. I think it's fascinating though because that's not the kind of thing that...

people write news articles and stuff about. But if you're talking about the larger picture of what makes a band a band, I think that's fascinating. And honestly, the only other band I could think of that did or does, depending on which tense you use, is maybe Fugazi. And it's something so simple, but I think we've all been trained, for those of us that are music fans, by this behind-the-music-industrial complex that a band has to have a certain arc. There's so-and-so goes to rehab, and then there's this ridiculous story that people try to put square pegs into round holes for. And what I think is so awesome about what Sloan does is that...

You guys just don't do any of that. And you do what you do, and it seems like with such quiet authority, or loud authority, that it connects with people and resonates with people because it's very honest. And again, it wouldn't work if the songs weren't good, too. But it's something that, like with Fugazi, I think that the ethics get talked about too much, right? But with Sloan, I don't feel like he gets talked about it much.

Right. And I think that the Fugazi guys were getting tired of talking about their ethics. They're tired of talking about being vegan or whatever or charging no more than $6. And it's also a curse to do that because maybe sometimes they want to go, can we just do this thing that makes us a lot of money? It's like, well, our whole rep is based on not doing that. Anyway, whatever. Fugazi factors into my life story in that I went to D.C. in 87 and knocked on Ian McKay's door and he answered the door and he was super cool to me.

And I don't know if Fugazi was happening then, in the summer of 87. Maybe they were, but I didn't know. Then I went the next year, did the same thing, and I saw Fugazi that year and blew my mind. So I was all up into their thing for a couple of years. Like, I loved Imakai. He's coming on tomorrow, actually, as a weird coincidence, which is really funny. Oh, well, he's just like, I mean, whatever. I'll give him your best. He's my hero, basically. But, you know, musically, we've dabbled. We've done some, like, hardcore covers and stuff like that. But, you know, our music, you know, circling back to a couple things you said before, you were talking about...

The thing is, a lot of your guests, you were saying, there are examples of moderate success. I don't know what the economics are for a band like Red Cross, but in my mind, they've done everything right, everything cool and ethical, and they're cool. They have a cool little body of work. I know in your interview with Steven, you talked about how you thought it would have been, like they have eight records or something, and we have 13, or 12, rather. And they've been around since 81. But they took time off. We toured with Red Cross in 1997. Started when they were like, what, 11 or 12 or something? 11, yeah. You gotta have a head start if you're starting that young. Yeah.

But we love them too. And they actually came to Halifax. Fugazi came to Halifax, but I didn't live there anymore. Anyway, I have too much to talk to you about. But just to contextualize my own band, we got a break in the wake of Nirvana when the music industry changed and everybody came looking for people who were into punk rock but maybe knew how to put songs together and stuff like that. Anyway, we fit that bill. In Canada, we were... In Canada, there's often in Canada like a...

kind of like a Canadian version of an American story. And we kind of became, we kind of had a Nirvana story kind of put upon us because we were from Halifax. We were not from a major center. You know, we loved Nirvana as well. But, you know, we were more kind of copying on our first record, My Bloody Valentine and British shoegaze stuff. But I also like the Nirvana guys. Like I loved Black Flag and American hardcore.

So we were kind of, and we were kind of ready to go. Like we were starting to record in September 91, which was basically when everybody came looking for it. Right as the gold rush. Yeah. So like we were like, yeah, exactly. So we benefited big time from all of that stuff. And then basically as soon as, when it was time to make our second record, we were already pretty over alternative music. It was clear, like how many pretenders were, got into the club that didn't belong. And arguably you could, you know, if you're a person more, like we would probably be seen as one of those, like who are these guys? Like, but, but you know, we love them and you know, we're at the altar of sonic use and all that stuff. But, um,

And then we really wanted to get out of the sort of like alt music jail or whatever. And so our second record is a real sort of pop record where our references were more like Fleetwood Mac and Plastic Ono Band and more kind of mannered stuff. Our first record was scrappy and noisy and all that kind of stuff. I mean, it's not like AAA or anything. No, I don't think so. That's the one with what I Hate My Generation coaxed me. There's some rockers in there, but they're not like punk rockers. They're not grunge. They're grungy now. I agree. Yeah, but I mean, the pavement record that came out that year was also kind of...

I don't think that, you know, it was also kind of a pop record, too. Although I wouldn't listen to any of it. I wouldn't listen to music. I was like, I don't want to be accused of copying. I couldn't listen to pavement or anything like that. So that's terrifying. Can you back up a little bit, though, and just quickly talk about Underwhelmed, which kind of seems like it's a song within the Sloan pantheon that has sort of endured through the ages. It's a good song, too. Yeah. Well, Underwhelmed owes to Nirvana as well in that. So when we first recorded it, it's a song. Well, it's...

It's a song from the time when I had a journal full of poems, which I no longer am sitting in coffee shops doing that. I have kids and I have no time. I have lots of music and no words. I'm like, I've got to fill this one with music. This one's going to be good. I mean, I've got to fill it with words. But back then it was just like, I have all these poems, man. So that song, Underwhelmed, was just this kind of poem or didn't have music attached to it. And Andrew and I were together, Andrew Scott from the band, and we're like, okay, I've got to put music on this. And the song that I feel like I was playing is a political song from Michael Jackson to sing by The Minutemen. I don't know if you know that one. So it's the same song.

Well, anyway, that's what Underwhelmed is, a political song from Michael Jackson to sing. Okay, wow. I'm going to listen to that very differently now. Okay. And then when we recorded it, the first time in September 91, when we were getting ready for People to Come Find Us, it was kind of like a cramps kind of thing. You still there? I am, yeah. Sorry. I needed to dismiss something. My bad. The first version of it was kind of like a cramps, kind of slow floor tom. And then we got signed to Geffen, which is big news, which I could tacky-pole into a half-hour story, but whatever.

And they were like, oh, yeah, well, we basically got signed because Underwhelmed was like a, they thought that it would be a commercial hit. And so we ended up, we were so bored of it by the time, like, our record, we re-recorded it. It's because people are just finding out about it. Like, you know, yeah, you've got this other recording. You're just, people are just finding out about it. You're like, oh, that one? Okay. It's like, is that going on the record? I guess that's, is that the reason you were signed? Oh, okay. Anyway, we re-recorded it. We re-recorded it. And it, and then, so the other ripoff is, it's basically, it's.

It's based on Aneurysm by Nirvana. Do you know the song Aneurysm? I know it well, yeah. I bought it just the side of the day it came out. So yeah. So that whole buildup in Underwhelmed is just a total rip on Aneurysm, which was new at the time, which was just out. It was the B-side of Smells Like Teen Spirit or whatever. It hadn't entered the pantheon of the rock nerd necessarily as being like, oh, well, it's one of their best songs and it's like a B-side. It's my favorite one of all of them. But anyway.

Yeah, so Underwhelmed is – I like doing it still. Like, it's 4 minutes 40. Like, it's excruciatingly long. It's two songs long, and it's only three chords long. So it's fine, but I just – I would never – the thing is, it's based on the words. So it's like, I'm only halfway done, so I have this much more to say. I would never do that now. I would make a song construction that's two and a half minutes, and then I would pepper it with a few words and then get out of there. Excise it out instead of being like, well, I've got another page and a half here. I guess we've got to – Yeah. But I also feel all these things. Right. And furthermore, I also feel – Yeah, exactly. Moreover.

I don't know what else to say about it. No, no, I was just gonna say, do you have to, like, for a song like that, do you have to, like, give it a break for a while to even, like, like it again? Yeah, that's one of those. Yeah, for years, we didn't play it, and then we, you know... Like any band that lasts forever. Oh, the other thing I was going to say, you were talking about Fugazi are like people who kind of split the things. I was going to make that note earlier, but I thought we moved away from the topics. And I think U2 as well. I think Adam Clayton is a multi-millionaire for some reason, even though he can... The luckiest guy in rock and roll, yeah. Barely play-based. No, he's fine. Coming up next week, Adam Clayton from U2. I loved U2. U2 was my stepping stone from rush to punk. I was like, they're kind of punk. I do...

I mean, there are earlier U2 songs where it's like, listen to the guitar. It's almost like Andy Gill from Gang of Four on some of the stuff that The Edge is doing. They're an interesting band. I think nobody dares to reference U2 at this point. If you're Interpol, you're like, yeah, man, we're just like early U2. Everybody would be like, boo.

But anyway, I loved you early you too. I understand what's cloying about them and all that kind of stuff I think you know the thing that their mistake was they kept going and they didn't die I mean it's the same thing with me You know when you make a 12th record. It's like Jesus these guys what these guys shut up I love their I love their second third and fourth and fifth record But do you expect me to listen to this 12th record like that's a that's a lot of responsibility for a fan Well, and that's it's not the first time I've heard you express that I think that's really interesting because there is I feel more of that now because of the total instant availability of all music throughout all time as well, that anything that comes out isn't just based against what that artist has done before, but it's kind of based against all of music. So if you're an artist that is prolific or that continues going, there almost is that justify your existence attitude with some people. But a lot of people don't think that way at all. They're like, oh, cool, new Sloan record. Awesome.

Right. Well, the thing is, I'm one of those people who was like, would you guys knock it off? Guys, it's not. But now I'm in this situation where I'm like, do I have to watch season 30 of The Simpsons? Because I expect them to, I'm expecting people to keep up with me. Right, to practice what you preach, you have to, I'm watching The Walking Dead even after like all joy has left the show as well as any creative viability. Exactly. Do I have to listen to Voodoo Lounge? Yeah, exactly. I guess it would have been Steel Wheels back in the day, but yeah. The thing is, Steel Wheels is like Modern Stones. Steel Wheels, yeah.

It's actually not. And that's like 88. It's like 1988. It's so long ago. The Stones are a good example. It's like, well, do you just become like a nostalgia act, right? Or do you continue being creatively viable? I mean, ACDC's cranking down another record. It's like, Malcolm's gone. And it's like, okay, but you know, whatever they want to, serve it. No one's forcing me to like, have an opinion on it.

They should be done. According to Chris Murphy, you're done. Well, how do you have ACDC without Malcolm is what I got to say, but whatever. Well, I mean, but I mean, it's like, where do you draw the line? Like, how do you have it without Bon Scott? Yeah. How do you have it without Phil Rudd? Phil Rudd came back and I got to say, it's amazing because remember he got, he got in, he got in trouble. He got in trouble for attempted murder. He hired a hitman. As you do, as you do. Yeah. One of the lads doing as the lads do.

He's back. He's back, guys. Wasn't it about his solo album? Like, something to do with, like... It was something, like, straight out of, like, an indie movie or something. Like, he's basically... Okay, I love ACDC. I love Phil Rudd's drumming. But he's just, like, the simplest boneheaded thing in the most boneheaded act in the world. And he had a solo album. And my joke is, like, he was, like... He was, like, wasn't he trying to, like, kill someone who didn't promote his solo album? Anyway, we were joking. He's, like, what's on his solo album? It's, like, track one. Track one, kick drum. Track two, snare.

Factory, Racktop. Here's a drum track with no fills, like every other thing he's ever done. Exactly. Yeah, kick ass, but better have some other elements on there. Yeah, one would hope that there's, you know, throwing a flute or something. Anyway, I don't know what my point was. Yeah, ACDC, I mean, without Malcolm, I mean, it's just, I understand being compelled to keep going, and Angus is, he's a machine. Like, go for it, I guess, but...

Anyway, but another example, say, maybe not as known to your listeners or whatever, but say a group like Rush, who I loved as a teenager, so I came in and loved them from like 81 to 83, and then sort of stopped loving them, always continued to love them just because, and I didn't really follow them, and I actually thought their music got whack, but I got to hand it to them because they weren't just a nostalgia act. They made new records, and they changed their sound and alienated a lot of people. So I would say that my own band, for example, Except for the first record, which is different, where we were basically trying to copy. We were trying to beat up the times. We were a local band, basically just copying international acts. We never thought we would play outside of Halifax. But anyway, from our second record on, I would say that we were the same band. I kind of think that every song between our second record and our twelfth is interchangeable. I kind of think that we have the same palette, kind of. But what's my point? But as you go on, you compete with yourself in the set list. It's like, how long do you want to play? People are here because they want to see.

10 songs at least from the 90s, and we have a new record, but we defiantly, when we put our 12th record, we defiantly played 10 new songs. That's face punch. People are like, are you fucking kidding me? But we don't think that, you know, we don't have a jump, we don't have jump and backlash in our set. But, you know, we have some, you know, they're the equivalents. But anyway, you're just competing with yourself as you add to the thing. And you've got to make it interesting for yourself as well. And there are other bands, like a perfect example, I saw a Mudhoney show, this was like five or six years ago, and they played like Touch Me, I'm Sick, like third song in, and a bunch of drunk people kind of got up and left. And then they played what would be the record that was about to come out, and it was just songs off of that, and it killed. And I was like, if I was just seeing this band and knew nothing about Mudhoney, I'd be like, this band is great.

And I felt sorry for the people that were, oh, heard the song I wanted to hear, I'm out. But there is that attitude, right? I went to see God of My Voices about a year ago, and I'm a fan, but from B-1000 through the four or five records after that that came out that year. That was just January. Yeah, so I kind of kept up for a while, and then I didn't keep up anymore.

I went to see them, and it was an interesting experience for someone, and I know that I'm dealing with people who love a certain part of our career and didn't keep up. But when I went to see God of My Voices, I didn't know a lot of it, but I liked all of it. So I was kind of happy in my heart to know that it's possible to go, so you know you're there to see the band that you like, even if you're coming back into the fold and you're like, you know what, I had kids and stuff, like I haven't been to see a show in 10 years. These guys have 12 records, are you kidding me? I just know the third and fourth one or whatever. I just really want to go back to Racine Man, that's all I want to hear. But anyway, I had a legitimately good time, so as the fan, I was happy because I play in a group like that that continues to put out music, not as prolific or...

I mean, who is, really? Yeah. But then also, I think you brought an important point with Rush, which is an incredible sentence to say on this show. Rush is the coolest, punkest band from Canada ever. They followed their own stars. Yes, they bought their own freedom by doing what they want to do. There's nothing punker than that. And they looked like shit, and they didn't care. They didn't care. And they didn't, you know, Geddy wore a Devo pin, but he didn't brag about being into Devo. He was just like, and they're funny as hell.

Again, I don't know everything in their catalog, but I think that they are, I think they're the number one band from Canada ever. Sloan number two. Discuss. So I think it's interesting that, I'm actually trying to think who would be the third one now. No means no. Oh yeah, definitely no means no. I would say no means no over DOA. DOA is great, but. I said that.

Are you fighting with me? No, the idea that a band can, like, if they have a certain amount, if they hit at a certain level and make records that are so good, like an Iggy Pop, for instance. An Iggy Pop, dude, that guy, Rob Hauer, Funhouse, like, oh my god, like, so yeah, he made Butt Town. Who cares, man? Like, it's freaking, it doesn't diminish the fact that he's Iggy freaking Pop. And there's that kind of, like, I don't know, Rubicon that an artist crosses where you buy a certain amount of goodwill with folks who are like, oh yeah, what are they up to? Cool, I'll check it out. And like, even if it doesn't necessarily hit, it's sort of like, cool, they're doing that. And then there can be bands that...

come out with like late period great records where like this record is better than anyone gives it credit for Devo for instance something for everybody that record's 10 years old I think almost to the day and it's I mean it's up there with like freedom of choice and like are we not meant and like to this day I still don't know that many people like listen to it other than hardcore Devo fans and it's like even with that it's like they mastered it like a modern record so it's like brick wall mastered and like there's all these like things for the nerds and for their fans And Sloan, not that you're doing exactly that, but I think Sloan kind of does the same kind of stuff, that you're making music for yourselves, but you're also making it for who it's for, and if it happens to connect on a bigger level, that's cool, but it's almost like whatever's going on in the band, you kind of hear that you guys just like doing it. You like doing it. You like writing songs and being in a band and putting on records, and that's great. Well, we joke that, you know, well, why are you guys still together? Well, sometimes either you're making so much money, or you just like hanging out together, or people demand it. And in spite of none of those things being the case, we do it anyway.

Nope, nope, nope. There's a little bit of like, what else do you want to do? I always wanted to be a band. It's my dream. We definitely do it for ourselves. We do things on the cheap. There's no one plying with us with money saying we need more records. We pay for it and we make it and we get people that help us manufacture it or whatever. We're just music fans and we're like, what else do we like? I would say that for me, I'm not that adventurous and I'm not researching what's the newest, coolest thing. Even though I was into hardcore in the 80s, my tastes are mostly...

The Beatles and the Kinks and A-list stuff. I know about Devo. I know a bunch of Devo songs that I love, but I didn't buy the record you're talking about. I didn't own any of the records growing up. I only owned a couple records as a kid. I didn't have any money. Jay Ferguson in Sloan is a real musicologist. I met him when we were about 18, and he turned me on to a lot of stuff. He knows a lot about... I mean, I know a lot about the Beatles. Basically, I'm an expert, but he knows a lot about it. He's really into Prince. He's really into...

the bee gees he's really into sparks and like all kinds of you know he knows everything you know i it's i realize we start talking about twice removed actually do want to talk about that record a little bit i know we're kind of dancing all over the place here but uh anybody that's ever heard this show this is pretty much what the show is you know it's all right free balling but uh yeah i mean it kind of seems like a good from outside perspective that and you alluded to it too that it's sort of like that's kind of where you start to find your voice uh as a band yeah right so how do you decide what goes on on the record because that's the other thing with the like the everyone writing songs and stuff like that like how do you decide like what is that process like you like is there like a like a bingo ball is it like the lottery by shirley jackson like what's Lottery. The one where they stoned people? Yeah, except for instead of being stoned, so to speak, you get your record on the album. Well, when we started, we were not very long a band. We had all been in bands prior, but Sloan started in the beginning of 91, and by mid-92, we were assigned to Geffen Records. And we had only ever played really in Halifax, Nova Scotia. We were one of the best bands in Halifax, and guess what that's good for? Everyone sucks.

That's not true. We had a great music scene. You're a big fish in a small pond. Exactly, yeah. But when we were signed to Geffen, there was a big fight about our A&R guy really wanted me to be the main guy.

And we were fighting it. Oh, so like you would be like the Kurt Cobain type of dude where it's like you're the front man and like it's- A lot of people make that comparison. We're both geniuses. Yeah, so I would be, yeah. It's just easier to market the thing. So we had, so we made a video. We made a video, yeah. My other joke about, maybe it's a bad taste because he's dead, but like if I had the body, if I had a-

If I had an awesome body, I'd be shirtless right now. But luckily for you, I have a terrible body. My shirt is on forever. But yeah, so they wanted, it didn't matter that it's me, but they wanted me, they wanted one of us to be the main person. And I wrote most of the songs on the first record. And I encouraged everyone to write songs. And it was kind of my decision to make to share everything because I wanted to be, I had been in bands where I wasn't the main guy. And when that band broke up, I didn't care. So I wanted everyone to want the band to keep going. And so I was like,

whatever I'm investing in these people like everybody can write their stakes involved when people are invested in it like when people exactly and and and they said you know and as an aside like some people say like I'm the type of person who can't do math it's like well everybody can do math if you are encouraged to try or if you keep up like you don't get left behind whatever like everybody can write if you if someone takes you seriously or helps you do it the first time or you know what I mean like who can't write a song like I mean, maybe people can't. But anyway, everybody knew how to play guitar and could do it. And everybody did have writing credits on the first record, but I had the most. And I was the most gregarious and the most easygoing and comfortable talking. I call that role the human ambassador role is what I call that, by the way. Right. Well, and then the other, well, I was like the Paul McCartney character. When I was going to say further to something else you were saying.

about when you last forever, you can't have your mistakes held against the thing that, oh, Iggy, we're talking about Iggy, but to me, like, the ultimate example is The Beatles, where one of them died young, and one of them continues to make mistakes, and he's like, ah, he wasn't as cool as the guy who's dead. It's like, well, that's not fair. And how do you know John Lennon wouldn't make his version of The Fireman? You know, like, it's like, let him do whatever, he's having a good time, let him do what he wants. Did you write Helter Skelter? No, you didn't. No, and John Lennon was a selfish asshole. Anyway, but... Love him, but also very true, yeah. Yeah, but...

Everybody shits on McCartney, he's great. But anyway, yeah, so the guy from Geffen, who's, you know, it's not like, I can just, Corporations get described as like, Geffen was saying this. It was a guy at Geffen, a guy we liked, a guy who was interested in our opinion too. I don't mean to speak to them as a monolith. We met a lot of people when we were with Geffen. They were all cool. But they're all trying to sell the whole record. You know what I mean? They were some big fish in that pond. But they thought that I should be the main guy. But I was insistent that we share. And then by the time the second record came, we demoed extensively. And I definitely had enough songs.

to fill the whole record with my songs. But I just wanted everyone to contribute. And I always kind of wrote the most of everybody. And when we do B-sides and stuff like that, it was usually my song and somebody else's. So I'm the quantity king. I'm in charge of quantity. The king of quantity in Sloan. Yes. And then, I mean, if you think about the investment in everybody being a writer, I win because A, the band is still intact and everybody else is gone. All of our peers are gone.

When I'm talking about peers, bands you wouldn't even know of. Do you know who Eric Strip is? Who would probably be the biggest band that I'm talking about. I actually do know who Eric Strip is, but I used to work at a record store, so of course I do. I get what you mean, though. The bands that were your contemporaries around then, it's sort of like, generally speaking, not around anymore. Whereas you guys are still kicking and doing your thing. I'm sort of saying it's because we were founded in fairness. I was going to say that it came back, Patrick, who was kind of the last guy to join the band.

It's his songs that have generated the most money for the band. So in terms of an investment, like I came out on top. I'm glad I made the investment saying, let's all keep our own songs. And then he would be, he would have more money than I would. I wouldn't care really because it's, it's whatever. But I'm glad that it's the rising tide lifts all boats too, right? I mean, like the band gets the credit for like having like a great fricking song and there's nothing wrong with that at all. That's kind of awesome. And it also, because we split it, like when we do collaborate, collaboration was more of the case in the early days, just because we hung out more and jammed and stuff like that. But if you're like taking someone's idea,

when you know that it doesn't affect your cut or anything, it's like, take this idea, it would be better for the song, which we all split equally. It's just a better setup for collaboration, as you know. It's obvious. Yeah, you're invested in everybody succeeding. And so rather than being like, oh, whatever, I'm just going to wait for my turn to do my songs, you're like, I have a thing that might go with that that would really make this cool in a certain way. Everyone's invested in the success of the larger universe. Yes, and the person whose song is so great that everybody wants to make even better, they're not saying, I don't like your idea because that means I have to cut you in.

You know what I mean? You'd be open to it except for your ego, but the ego is real and nobody cares about my ideas. It doesn't matter. It makes it like a communitarian effort almost. Yes. Anyway, I think I'm really proud of the band. I could theoretically dislike three quarters of the material we make, and I don't. There's some songs that I think are not as good as others. Sorry, so back to your question, how do you decide?

For the first record, I think I had seven or eight songs. Then on the second record, I had five songs. Then on the third record, I had four songs. Then on the fourth record, I had four songs, but it meant we had to add a 13th song. And then by the fifth record, Between the Bridges, your favorite, I was down to three songs. But by our fifth record, we had reached complete equilibrium where everybody was writing.

and everybody took the same amount of real estate on the record. And that was theoretically what we were going to do heretofore, but there are just some instances where Andrew had a baby and didn't have any songs, but he still makes a quarter of the money and that kind of thing. Well, but it's something that, it seems interesting that it seems like we almost... this friendly competition that you know you don't you don't let anyone else down but it's gonna make you like work a little harder because you're like oh man I mean especially like I feel like Andrew has like some of the like the sleeper like oh my god that's one of the best like where did you freaking come up with that dude like right so Andrew is is the drummer but he also so in the course of when we play a show I also play drums so I go play drums for Andrew but um but he's the best guitar player in the band like he's a fantastic guitar player so every time every time I when I write a song I play the I play like the rhythm And Andrew plays lead. And when he records a song, he plays everything. He doesn't even let me play bass. So it's just, whatever. It wasn't like that in the beginning, but that's just the way it ended up. But then I don't play the bass live. It's Jay who has to play his bass parts because I'm playing the drums. Right, right. Because obviously you want to, it's a rock song. You want to have drums with it. And also, like I got to say, I think you have an interesting drumming style too. And it's a very, it's different. And I think Andrew's actually one of the greatest unsunged rock players. Andrew's one of the greatest. He's world class. Like he's really good.

I think that Dave Grohl is great and all that stuff, but I think that Andrew has a musicality and a sophistication that is just like, you know, Dave Grohl is untouchably good. And Andrew started, when we made our first record, Andrew had only been playing like literally less than two years. Like he learned all of that as an older, like in his 20s. Wow. And he got really good and he was basically doing Dave Grohl. He had the giant, you know, floor, mountain floor, Tom. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like... Yeah, the big beast drums with the big thud buckets. The band that I saw that we really stole from and changed our sound between our second and third record was Supergrass. I saw Supergrass in 1995 in Boston at the Middle East upstairs.

And I thought their drummer was fantastic, that guy Danny. So if you listen to Twice Removed, we're trying to make less kind of grungified record, but Andrew is still Dave Grohl to me. He was playing more, whatever, less outrageously loud like Nirvana. But then on the third record... I saw Supergrass, made all the demos for the record. Andrew moved away, moved to Toronto. We were still in Halifax. I made all the demos for one chord to another, doing Danny from Supergrass, who's doing Keith Moon. But anyway. Yeah, exactly. You're going with all the crazy fills. And it feels like before the one. And Andrew plays with the elbows. But I did all those demos. And then Andrew kind of copied me. But he does it so much better because he's so strong and so capable. And then when we recorded our third record...

Andrew lived away, so he was down for Christmas visiting his parents, and we set up a four-track cassette recorder and four mics and recorded all of his, we recorded a little drum set in the practice space, and that's the drums on one chord to another. It's all just like four-track cassette. And then we brought that to, then Andrew went back to Toronto, and the three of us brought it to his studio and output the drums onto the tape and just overdubbed on top of that. So that record really sounds kind of 60s boxy. It totally has that 60s drum sound, but not in a way that necessarily sounds like slavish to that. It just has that vibe. It has that like...

you know, early who, Beatles-esque kind of like, yeah, it's got the sound and it makes the songs that, you know, the more raucous numbers like really pop, but then it also gives like that same energy to like the more low-key numbers also. It's interesting. So it was more of like a functional thing almost. It was cheaper. Okay. Well, we were no longer on Geffen and we didn't have any money. And we basically actually broke up the band at the end of 94 and we were dormant. And then we were running a little record label called Murder Records.

And we were, we thought about putting out a posthumous record. We weren't fighting. We just weren't, you know, we just didn't really want to, you know, we were kind of, anyway, I was mad at Andrew for moving. In my mind, he was like fucking up my chance to make something of myself. I was like, dude, why are you, like, there are these local bands here. They're getting really good. And we continue to suck because you, you know, you come, you fly in to rehearse, like once every four months, we suck. And he was just more into his, to his girlfriend who is now his wife. So I don't really have an official complaint anymore, but I was mad at the time.

But we all ended up going up to Toronto and tail between our legs by 97, 98. But what was my point? So the recording for that was more financial necessity as much as anything. Yeah, we were just going in on weekends and spending our own money. It probably cost us about eight grand or something like that, but it was our most commercially successful record. It sold like 80,000 copies in Canada. It did really well. I mean, the vibe on a song like G-Turns to D, it's like it wouldn't necessarily, if it was some big glossy production, it wouldn't necessarily hit with that same immediacy. So it seems like it worked very well. And we were also, as I mentioned, we loved guided by voices that would record solely on four track, but we upped the fidelity. We did the drums that way.

Mostly because a lot of 90s recordings that didn't have any kind of budget, they just suffered and sounded so terrible. So we wanted to, like, if we don't have the budget, I don't want it to sound cheap. It's the drums usually that sound the shittiest or the biggest giveaway that you have no money. So let's... Do the drums sound like, you know, flapping pancakes or do they sound like drums? Yeah, so let's turn it into a character thing. Like, it's like something that we can control. And the guy that we went in, we went to some guy's studio and he was like...

When we do the credits, you have to say that I didn't record these drums. Like he was so mad. He was bummed out by it? Yes, he was like prided himself on recording drums and we brought in this mess. You know, I was the recording engineer. So it's like, you know, track one. They were all 57s and they all sounded, every track sounded the exact same. So this is like what, 95, 96? Yeah, we were recording it. And yeah, Andrew came down for Christmas 95 to do all those drums. And then we started in January 96. But then, you know, I mean,

I consider The Good in Everyone one of the great first songs on a record, too. When somebody says, what's your favorite song song, I always say that one because it's a minute 58. It does everything that you need it to do in such a small amount of time. Yeah, it's basically the music I love. The other thing that Patrick did, Jay and I kind of formed a band. Jay and I had been in the band before, so we were kind of like this unified vote.

And we still kind of run the band in a way. Like the United Nations Security Council. Like you have the... Yes. All the boring administrative stuff. Like we do. But without someone like Patrick, we would have just kind of been a retro band. Like let's make like a sort of like Oasis or whatever. But Patrick dragged us into... Like he was more into...

I always say ACDC and stuff like that. But he's really into like heavy rock and like almost like metal, I think even, right? He's into Judas Priest, but he also really loves like Killing Joke. And like, he's not just like, he loved Lovin' Rockets. He loved a lot of like post-punk stuff. But yeah, in the context of Sloan, like he's kind of, he's more muscular than we would have been. So The Good and Everyone, for example, has got a big wide bend, Ace Frehley guitar part that when he was doing it, Jay and I were basically like, can I talk to you for a second? Like, we can't let this guy do this. Like, twice removed.

Twice removed, we really kind of locked Patrick down. It's more precious. It's more kind of twee. Restrained is what I would say. Yeah, restrained. And then by our third record, one chord to another, Patrick was the new guy. Andrew's born in 67. Jay and I were born in 68. Then Patrick's born in 69. So Patrick was the young guy. And kind of was just like, yeah, I'll come and play. When he joined the band, he was the bass player. And then again, just to bend over backwards for everyone, I was like, I'll play bass if you have more fun playing guitar. Because I'm into contorting and making everyone happy except myself.

Tomorrow, it doesn't matter. But Patrick really took ownership. He really felt like it was his band by then. And he really was like, I want it to go like this. I want it to be heavier. And so we had to sort of let go and let him do that. It probably wouldn't have been like that.

Anyway, and we probably wouldn't have survived if we had just been kind of like a twee 60s band. Like Patrick made us, like my first love was Kiss. So like I love rock music and Dumb Dumb music and I love the sweet. Sweet is so good. Yeah, like they're my favorite. Like that's my thing. But I think you can hear elements in that of what Sloan does, but it isn't necessarily overly worshipful of that. Like it's like you're taking what you like from it and like putting it in the blue. And also, but I'm also dealing with Andrew who, Andrew now just wants to be Bob Dylan. And I never liked Bob Dylan. I always thought it was so boring.

I understand what's great about it, but I just wanted to be in a, you know, I like McCartney. I love Lennon and McCartney. You can't talk about them separately, but like, I'm more like McCartney. I'm more into beauty than truth. Like I, I find the Lennon solo stuff boring to listen to. I mean, I love to plastic on a band. I love that. I love, no, that's a stupid thing to say, but anyway, I love, I love production. Like Lennon.

In solo years, he kind of eschewed production, and I love production. And Jay especially loves production. Like, he's really, could be quite mannered and not rocking. But, you know, Jay's in my band and Patrick's in my band. And we're still here. Anyway, I think it's just a testament to trusting each other and putting up with each other's shit. It's really like an exercise in democracy that I think, there's lots of frustration, but I think it was worth doing. It continues to be worth doing. And again, it's interesting that on that record, I still feel like even...

aside from just like the rocking nature or whatever, it still brought out the best. I mean, like autobiography is a great tune. Like someone actually on Twitter, just when I announced the show said, don't shave too high. You'll regret it later. Like, it's like, that's, that's almost got like four or five phrases. You're like, ah, yeah, that's awesome. And like, that's something where there's some people that, you know, they don't even listen to lyrics at all. Or like, maybe they like, you know, you know, like that's, that's the, there's a bathroom on the right folks where it's like, what, why do you, that's not, there's a bad moon on the rise is the lyric, you know, but like, I like the, the lyricism, I think.

Again, that comes back to being the music for people that really like music. There's a lot to dig into if that is your thing. So sorry, go ahead, please. Yes, well, I mean, I've heard it said, and I don't disagree necessarily, that the least important thing is what you say, and the most important thing is how you say it. And it applies to Iggy or whatever, like, not right, I want something, I want something, like, who cares? Stupid, but, you know, he's great, like, of course. Sounds like that dude is definitely not having any fun right now, and he's telling you all about it, you know? Yeah.

But he also had no lyrics five minutes before that. He's just making it up. Which is astounding, but that's one of the great things about wrestling. Actually, I don't know if that's true. But anyway, I don't ascribe to that. I hate writing lyrics, but I want them to be okay. Now, to be honest, so the song Autobiography, I had that for our first record, but I just didn't think that it worked. I was already...

as sophisticated as autobiography when we made the first record. But there's recordings, like videos of us playing it before our first record came out. But we just sort of went, there were too many chords to teach these guys. These guys are morons. But I also, as you said, there are lots of jokes and clever stuff in it. And I'm proud of it. However, I read, so another contemporary of ours in Canada is a group called The Odds. Would they be on your radar at all? I do not know The Odds, no. They're kind of my age, maybe a little bit older. I didn't know them at the time.

To me, they were not rocking enough. They're very much like Sloan. If you take a song like Autobiography, like Beatle-esque, Power Pop, Posey's, whatever. Anyway, I didn't know much about them. I met them in later years, and they're my favorite people. I love them. But they had a reviewer, say, of their record that it reminded them. Now, you might not get this reference, but I'll explain it. Their new record reminded them of the Arch Deluxe, which was a McDonald's hamburger that had a Kaiser bun on it.

Okay, okay. The inference being, guys, it's a hamburger. Yeah, the hamburger. You're dressing it up like this is some great fine cuisine and you're eating McDonald's. And so that came out after our record that had autobiography on it, which I felt was kind of like a Kaiser bun on a burger. So when we made Navy Blues, I was like, we have to dumb it down a little bit here. I was embarrassed to be as rockin' as the Good and Everyone on Arthur Record. And then we really embraced...

Kiss and Sweet and stuff like that on our fourth record where we have Money City Maniacs which was which is the song that has made us the most funny about all the songs and it's most known or whatever and But that's full-on. That's like that is a full-on rip of some ACDC. It's an ACDC song like I forget which song it is live wire or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah It's it's if you know if you know that ACDC song oh, they're doing like like it doesn't sound like But ACDC are also copying themselves as much as we are. Exactly, but there's a million ACDC songs that sound like that. And then also, it's not nearly so much as like, there's a Rye Coalition record, like after they made a couple well-received kind of always rock records, and then they basically went full Grand Funk Railroad. And they actually were poised for greater stardom because of that, but I happened to catch them, I wish I could support for them, on that tour, not knowing that the new material was like, oh, it's ACDC now. And I love ACDC, so I was like, this is cool. This is not what I expected, though. Like, it was a wild turn. But they...

And I like my coalition, but they was like, all right, guys. I've got Power Ridge, too. I get it. But I feel like Money City Maniacs is something that's in that grand tradition of the ACDC riff rock, but it's still uniquely you guys. It's got your sensibilities. I think that's one of the reasons why it's resonated with people. And also, let's not, as much as I'm sure...

People want to hear about Money City Maniacs, and I do as well. She says what she means is also, I feel like, one of the great first songs on a record in rock and roll. She says what she means is the best sounding rock. That one is a sweet reference, because that sweet, it's a bit inside baseball, like, their sound often is a half-cocked wah. Do you know what I'm talking about? I know exactly what you're talking about, where it's like, it's not all the way on, it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, oh, gong, gong, gong, gong, gong, gong, gong, gong, gong, gong. So that one is total sweet, that song. And yeah, so.

I mean, I know you're saying that because that's a song that I sing, and you're trying to give me some props or whatever. No, I do think it's one of the great... I've actually referenced that in my own records about the great first songs, like, how do you start off a record? I mentioned that. I don't know why I didn't include my bona fides, but... I think it's great, and that record sounds good, too. Like, so we were...

I was gonna say about, so we had this sort of rock record, and then that was like properly recorded and everything. I think that record sounds really, really good. And the next one, so the two that you know, or the two that you referenced, Navy Blues and Between the Bridges, were both recorded at the same place within about a year of each other, like a year and a bit. So I wanted to do a double record for Navy Blues. And that would have been, you know, Navy Blues, Between the Bridges kind of thing. Oh, so you wanted to have that, oh, I see what you mean. So that would have been like one, like...

When we made Between the Bridges, I didn't write any... I wrote Marky and the Moon, but my other songs I already had. We already had a lot of them. But I also want to say about making a rock record, we were thought of as being indie rock, and when we made Navy Blues, we lost a lot of people. A lot of people were like, I don't get it. Is this a joke? Are you guys kidding me? You guys think this is funny, right? And we do. They were looking for a dodge in the wink of, oh, you guys are doing the thing. Which we have, because...

Eddie Van Halen just died. I did love Van Halen, but kind of. I loved Fair Warning, but I was too pumped to like it by the time 1984 came out. As I say, my first love was Kiss. We liked rock music, and we got what was kind of goofy about it. Jay was kind of the least comfortable with that kind of rock stuff, but we also differentiate between

or rock music, you know, we've been accused of, this was actually a funny criticism that we received when we made our record called Action Packed. So maybe it was our fourth record. Our seventh record is actually quite a rock record too. It's called Action Packed. Yeah, yeah, that's the one where it's Action Packed. Yeah. Yes. So there's like, there's kind of not a lot of eclecticism on that record. It's kind of like straightforward rock songs. Yeah. Which was just a fun experiment for us. But anyway, somebody criticized us as being, they're like, I like your rock.

I like rock music. I like maybe blues, but this is more like riding on a Harley rock music. I think you're kind of losing it here. And I think that's a funny differentiation. It's like, can we just keep the rock music off of the Harley Davidson? As long as it's off a Harley, you're good. And that was the one where you kind of based everything off of using certain chord progressions, right? Like the songs were sort of like... Yeah, I tried to make songs out of one chord progression. Like the verse would be the same as the chorus. Like a Devo gut feeling or a...

Velvet Underground, doing something where you imply structure and change structure within the song and have that be sort of like the challenge. It's a really interesting concept. Well, I was actually, I mean, at the time, I was actually, it was the most I ever kind of was listening to modern music like, you know, like R&B music, like when the Destiny's Child record came out, like I was more kind of, I was kind of like not interested in a lot of the rock records that were coming out. I was like, who's making good records? Like, I don't, I mean.

So I really was excited by whatever. Not that if you go back and listen, there's probably tons of stuff that was happening. But I guess I was just sort of becoming deaf to it. I heard so much rock music. So it was interesting for me to listen to Destiny's Child or whatever. And when I thought about those songs, as I play along to them, I was like, this is just one chord progression. Yeah, there were like 15 different chords. With tons of melodic variation or whatever. So it was sort of something that Patrick and I were trying to do. Let's just try and do that for fun. Anyway, but I think that that record, Action Pack, our seventh record, we recorded it with a guy named Tom Rothrock.

And he was just like, I like, you've got the greatest drummer in rock, and you guys can sing harmonies, just do that. And so actually the joke is, we were like, yeah, let's make an ACDC record, but with harmonies, yeah, let's go. And then we were like, that's Def Leppard. You know, it's, yeah. Back on the Harley, exactly, yeah. You know, real quick, just because I do dig on Navy Blue so much, when Andrew shows up with Sinking Ships,

Yeah, that's the greatest song of all time. Are you kidding me with this? Do you know immediately? Yeah, so Andrew is such a special writer. Without him, he doesn't do anything to move us forward or administrative anything. Let's try this. He has to be dragged to everything. But he's such a special musician and a special writer.

Yeah, so Sinking Ships is the fourth song on Navy Blues. And it's kind of two songs in one, at least. And there's kind of two recordings, and one was kind of cut in. He did that a couple times on Navy Blues. Which also gives it that kind of 60s, kinksy sort of Beatles-y sort of vibe. Yeah. His reference that I never really got into is The Pretty Things. Andrew loves The Kinks, and kind of turned me on to The Kinks in my 30s. But he also really loves this band called The Pretty Things, 60s band that I don't really know anything much about. But I think that a lot of his... If I ever hear The Pretty Things, I'm like...

Andrew stole that. I hear what he said. Right, right. Oh, that's what he got. For all I know, Sinking Ships is a pretty thing song and he just doesn't want to tell me. It'd be too weird at this point, right? Sinking Ships is Andrew's kind of masterpiece. It's one of the great songs in our catalog for sure. It's something of which I'm very proud. I don't know if I played much of anything on it. I got to sing on it, but Andrew kind of did all of that stuff. He's so special that way. That's just how he rolls when he's got the ideas?

And his songs on the next record, too. The last song on Between the Bridges is called Delivering Babies, which is so good. The first song is called The NS, which is great. And then there's this seven-minute blues workout called Sensory Deprobation. Oh, yeah. It's near the end of the... I don't remember. But anyway, a lot of fans... So that was the beginning of our commercial.

Plummet or whatever like we sold like 80,000 records of one course another 70,000 records of maybe blues that's still going on like 20,000 copies of between the bridges like it was a real come down So it's like the beginning of the end or whatever like like up until then I was like Why aren't we getting bigger than this and then I had to change my feeling to at least we're still doing it like whatever which is the That's also kind of an aperture came about that's right lots of stuff and and and where we used to Run our videos were on much music up in Canada all the time, but then it was just like We were kind of out of fashion. It was like Britney Spears and Backstreet Boys and all that boy band, all that candy stuff. I've joked about it. I have a song called Tell Me Something I Don't Know saying, now there's only extremes divided into two teams, the sicknesses and the antidotes. It's like you were either in Korn or Marilyn Manson or you were in Britney Spears. It was just like, where does Cheap Trick go now? You have to either be the sweetest candy or this evil or Metallica. Anyway.

But I was going to say, Between the Bridges, to me, it's, of all of our records, maybe except one, it's my weakest record. So when people love it, it really speaks to the fact that... Everybody is, everybody is, it's not all about me. I just mean like those guys, the Jay songs are great, the Andrew songs are great. It's usually Patrick and I who are kind of like have the singles and that kind of thing. But between the bridges, I think that people like because it's so well balanced. Like Andrew songs are fantastic. I actually think that mine are the least, I'm in fourth place on that record. Not that I have a chart. You don't have like a power ranking that gets updated? I do that kind of thing. Lone power ranking. Week 7,553. Well, usually I'm number one or two. It just, it hurts to be four. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But you know, I think it's good that you have the self-awareness to know when, it's not that like something is bad necessarily, but you know when something is awesome and when something's hitting and then you just know that like, okay. Put in the work. Didn't really do it that time. It did what it was supposed to do, but okay, cool. Move on. You know that you've got the future. You can learn from it. Yeah. When you only have one record under your belt, you want to put everything in it. The second record always gets the kitchen sink, everything. But when you're doing your ninth, it's like, yeah, that's done. We'll do another one next time. I don't feel that precious about it anymore. I'm into doing a good job, and I don't want to rip anybody off, and I don't want to sully our legacy. I'm interested in stuff like that. Whereas some people would be like, I don't care. I do care a lot about...

I don't want to make steel wheels in Voodoo Lounge. I want them to all be good. And I want to play 10 of them when we play in the next tour. And I don't want people to be pissed. I want it to be exciting and fun. I think Marking the Moon, that's on that record, and that song slams. Here you see the flip side of me. That's the best song on the record. But my other two are done right now. I'm trying to think of a sports analogy. Early great showing and then a terrible rest of the season.

I guess I was so pissed that we didn't do a double record on Navy Blues. When we did, what's it called? Between the Bridges. I was just like, I already have songs. I didn't even try. I was just like, I've got one more of Arkady and the Moon, which I actually think is one of my best songs. It's up there as one of the best alone songs, I would say. But anyway, yeah. I don't know what my point is. I'm just making jokes. Power ranking on that song is really good. Overall for the record, maybe less so.

Anyway, I also just thought that, I just also thought the artwork was kind of like nothing as well. Like we tried to make it kind of simple, but like, I just feel like, I think about that record and I was like, there's no, there's no color. Oh yeah, it's white. There's just nothing. Anyway, it just seems a little bit. It's got the feel of like, oh, is this going to sound like the Allman Brothers or something? Like what, like if you didn't know, like you wouldn't necessarily know what it's all about, right? It doesn't. Right.

I wouldn't call it my favorite of your album covers, but, you know, whatever. Right. Well, the other thing that we do that is kind of like a boy band, basically, or the Beatles, it's like I always insist that we're on the record cover, whereas, you know, a lot of record covers in the 90s would be like a little lawn ornament of a gnome or like a garden sprinkler or just like some shit. I was just like, fuck that. we're a band and we're going on the cover of the fucking record wear something nice cool gnome jerk yeah just like no one oh i see no one gives a shit about you including yourself anyway i don't think about like who's next or something right like that's an iconic cover it's like them like with that big uh cement whatever the hell it is pissing on the monolith yeah pissing on the monolith and it's like that's such a like ah it's it's great and it's i mean i think you guys do have a lot of you know welcome to record cover art critiques 101 but i mean i think i think a lot you have more great artwork than you aren't but it's funny you say that because i've actually never thought about the fact that yeah It's you guys on the record cover. Yeah, and except for the first one, it kind of looks like it's us, but it's not us. It's a party we were at, but it's three people that are friends of ours. But it looks like me because the person, it's a woman, has great big glasses, unsmeared. It's just all blurred. You can't see it. It's a woman named Martha Hancock. Oh, wow. And Andrew's wife, Fiona, his girlfriend at the time that he's still with, and our buddy Dave Marsh, who is the best drummer in Halifax. Oh, sorry, besides Andrew. So I think that, so that's...

Okay, so we're up to, what, that's 2003, right? Something along those lines, right? Well, I did skip a few, but whatever. We did skip a couple there. But whatever. I mean, if we, Chris, if we sit there and go through every record, we're going to be here for four hours. Yes, but when you're talking about... Your family might not be. Right, when you talk about the story of our band, the way that it... The thing is, it's like, and then they were signed to Geffen really early, and then they kind of broke up for a while, and then they had a comeback record one chord to another, and they... And then they just kept working. Like, there's no... But you know what I mean?

It's the part of which I'm proud, but the story, there's no story. Then they're just a working band, and there's no story, and it's not sexy, and it's hard to sell records. But if you're a music fan... and you keep your ear to the ground, you might hear of us, and maybe, you know, we still get people who are like, how did I not know of you guys? Like, I love these guys and these guys and these, I didn't even know you guys. And so, and I feel like our catalog is strong, and I think that, and we're still intact, and you can still go see us. I mean, except for COVID, it's like, it's not like, oh, I miss those guys. It's like, no, we're actually playing next week. And doing it, yeah, and that's, so I think that's. The same guys. So a lot of people have expressed to this show that one of the things I like is that I have a lot of people on that have.

if not the same, it's not going to be the same, but similar as career arts of just doing the work and continuing to do the work and do it. And again, I'm going to reference it for like, I think the fourth time, you know, a mud honey, right. Is a good example. Uh, you know, poster children, like Melvin's, there's plenty of bands that like have continued just to like do their thing and do things that are for their audience and for their, for their folks. But then also people will be like, wow, I didn't know this is, you know, great. I'll go back and find these older records. And like, I think that's cool because I think there's a certain amount of.

swagger towards being a catalog band, and not every band should try it. There's some bands where it's like, yep, the one's enough. I don't want to hear any more from you, and that's... We're good. We're good here. But I think every Sloan record has got... There's stuff there where it's like, oh, that's really cool. It's neat that they tried that. Again, the Harley writing record, which I never in a million years would have thought of, by the way. Well, that wasn't our intention. That was a derogatory comment that I think is funny. Sponsored by Harley Davidson, yeah. And the idea...

Which I think is somewhat anachronistic and youth-obsessed, the fact that, oh, you can't make great works later in life, or that you shouldn't bother. Going back to what we talked about before, the justify-your-existence aspect of it. I think that's largely nonsense. As long as you're doing it in a way where you're not just doing it to do it, necessarily, like if you've got some modus operandi, whether it's known or not, I think it shows through. I think it works.

Within the group we fight about, or there's a push-pull about, like Andrew thinks that a lot of the more Harley, end of the spectrum songs, he kind of puts up a stink about playing them and doesn't want to play them, and he feels that he doesn't want to... he already feels like it's undignified to play some of the music that we do because we're too old and these kinds of things. And I don't feel, you know, if I were in, if I had to put eyeliner on and big baggy pants or something, I was like, oh, I gotta put eyeliner on because that's what I did when everybody, I don't feel like I have to do, I don't feel like I have to pretend to be anything that I'm not. Like I am still excited to play music and meet people and I haven't met everybody I've ever wanted to meet. Like I'm game and I like rock music still. I'm not contemptuous of it. I didn't get so good at my instrument that I'm like, oh, I gotta play pop music. What I really want to do is play jazz.

I still kind of suck. The Jocko Pastorius story, yeah. Yeah, I never got that good. But I've got better. I'm fine. Anyway, I just mean, I feel... So there's some push-puller in the band. Andrew's like, can we just play quieter? It's like, well, can you just put earplugs in and be the best drummer in the world? For someone that's such a great loud rock drummer, it's funny that he'd be the one pushing for things to be on the quieter side, I would think. But, no, I think within any band or any...

Are we artists or are we entertainers? That's always kind of like, are you here to entertain people? Like when I heard a couple of your shows, I listened to, did you have Albini on three times? I listened to them all. I think it might be four. Yeah, it might be four. Anyway, he was definitely saying. You could like talk to that dude about pogs. Yeah, I think he's brilliant, right? But he was saying, you know, we just do it for ourselves. You know, I don't, kind of saying like, I don't care if other people are interested, we're just doing it for ourselves. And I don't exactly feel that way, which I guess makes me an entertainer, which I guess makes me less.

artistically viable seeming or whatever, but I mean, I'm just, I think that I have a proper balance. I'm into playing our new songs. I don't want to just come out and be a heritage act. I'm into continuing to write and continuing to produce material. But I don't, you know, I don't think of myself as a heavy-duty artist or anything like that. I'm just, I'm, especially in the context of the band, I'm more of an entertainer. Andrew is more of an artist. And he makes me seem, he makes me appear less a fool because of how artistic and cool and beautiful and stoic he is. You know, if it were four guys like me, I'd be in the Barenaked Ladies. If it were four guys like him, he'd be in Sisters of Mercy or I don't know what. Right, right. But then also, it's not like there's a correct path, right? Like, you know, the idea of being the entertainer versus the artist. Like, there's a...

Like a Venn diagram, an overlapping Venn diagram, you know, where it's like maybe you got like Kiss on one side and you've got Neil Young over there, you know, like, okay, fine. Then like, I think it, again, it works and there's a certain alchemy to it with what you guys do that like both sides of that come across without being like precious about it and without being, you know, hit you over the head with a hammer either. I mean, I don't, I think that we got a pretty good balance going on. I think that there are some... things we could fight about that i don't want to talk about or you know some stuff gets serious but but the ways that we disagree or like patrick makes fun of me for showboating or whatever like i'm into like playing up all of those you know i'm into to the sort of the fun fighting or like i'm into because we do disagree all the time and right and you know you can't help but disagree and there really is no boss uh but you can't get fired so we're stuck with each other well and you you kind of did a self-effacing thing with your playing ability but there's also not everybody should be trying to do a you know notes per minute academic exercise thing too there's when i think of like for instance when i think of sloan i think of like oh wow solid songs right there's some some bands within within my own unit we talk we always talk about sound bands versus song bands there's some bands like their sound give me some examples oh no i got yeah oh is that an offer it's an offer this is an offer conversation for sure uh but meaning that like some some bands they have a great sound like they make for a great live act but you're like i'm not gonna throw that record on

You know, whatever, it doesn't matter. And there's some bands that are song bands where it's like, okay, maybe the live experience, it's fine, but God, the records kill. And some of the best bands are bands that do both. But I think you've got, just like how we were talking about Andrew, has like a really strong musicality to his drumming. I mean, I think you're, whether or not you're, again, academic decathlon level bass playing or not, like, dude, it works really well. And it reminded me too, like, how'd you get into playing those kind of, is it a short scale? Yeah. How did that, was that like an aesthetic choice? Was that just what you ended up with? Like, because it's kind of an interesting vibe.

My roommate owned it. I was going to buy it off him for $200 and he sold it to the music store. Then I went to the music store to buy it and they charged me $400. So I've been mad about it ever since, but I got a lot of use out of it. The thing is, it's just like bass guitars are too big and they break you back. Yeah, and if you're not a gigantic person. I got small hands. You know, I'm 5'10 or whatever, but it's just a pain in the ass to use a bigger bass. I think it looks cool too. You know, Bill Wyman had one. Tina Waymos had one. I don't know, they're cool. So when you think about...

Because it seems like even when you're adding on to the dude's songs, you're still coming out from the position of what makes for a strong arrangement, what makes for a strong addition to the greater whole. And... I think it works without being very flashy, necessarily, but there's some really cool functional flourishes that you do that are in there. Are you thinking about, hey, let's just try to do something kind of cool here and see what happens, or is it something where it's more logical? Is it a feel thing? When you're doing it, where does it come from? Playing bass? How do you play bass, Chris Murphy? Specifically, the style of bass that you play, what are you thinking about in terms of what the songs and how it all comes together?

I think I'm just a combination of Paul McCartney and Gene Simmons, basically. Just trying to stay out of the way, I guess, but whatever. Paul McCartney famously played bass after the bed track was done. He did bass last kind of thing, or even after the singing. So he'd be like, okay, they're singing here. I've got to kind of play, and then there's a place to flourish or whatever. I often do that, too. But like any marriage, around 1999,

Patrick was, he had had it with my bass playing. He's just like, would you just play simpler? Just play the root notes. Yeah, or like, or sometimes he would just do it himself, or he would, you know, when we got into computers in like 2001, he's like, yeah, can you play on that? And I'd be like, yeah, you could do this or that. And then I'd come back and he had cut everything out of it. You know, it's just like, you know, he just wants it to be simple. And he just thinks of me as like jerking off all over it kind of thing. And once you just do like the, what's that, the kids in the hall skit where the ee, ee, ee, ee. Do you know what I'm talking about?

I don't know. I mean, I know a lot of kids in the hall. I probably know that one. I can't think. I should know it, I guess, if I'm a bass player. But Jay Ferguson is like, go crazy. Like, play all over this thing. And so he lets me go bananas, and I go bananas on my songs. And Andrew usually plays bass on his songs. So Patrick often gets me to play the bass, but he often wants me to dumb it down from... When we did Action Pack, again, that seventh record with a lot of rock songs with similar, just one chord progression. I also, I don't think I played any bass lines on that record. That was another kind of...

Fun thing to try, I just kind of did. The B-52s used to get called dance music with no bass line or whatever. There's a bass, but it's just like boom, boom, boom, boom. I love the B-52s. Mickey Wilson's going absolutely nuts where it's like, what is happening right now? But that's part of what made it so great. That's the alchemy of that band, right? They could get away with these incredible hooks. Where did that come from? I don't understand where that came from. Oh, I know. Yeah, it was from outer space. I love the B-52s as well. They're great. So yeah, whatever. I'm a Beatles fan, basically just trying to do Beatles stuff. I think Gene Simmons is a cool bass player.

Kiss, much maligned, and Gene Simmons, giant asshole, but they were cool. I have a whole thing about Kiss, that Kiss is still being blamed for the failure of the New York Dolls, and so everyone's still mad at them for taking their act to middle America. Did you ever see the documentary on the bass player for the New York Dolls? Oh, Arthur Cain? Yeah, I forget what it's called, but it's a bummer. I don't know if I did. I remember when it came out. It's really good, but it was one of those things where it's like... Maybe I did see it. It's depressing.

I mean, so that's it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Go ahead. Sorry, I didn't mean it. Whatever. Gene Simmons should have died in a car crash or in a plane crash. You know what I mean? I don't wish death upon anyone, but he has... Not that... Anyway, I have a... He'd be remembered differently if he had followed a certain path, right? Yeah, 76. If they were all dead in 76, it'd be like, they were so great. They're Alice Cooper. It's cool. But they just became so awful. But anyway, I stand behind Kiss. I think they're one of the... I think they're a great band, too. They had a lot of what I think are cool records in a short amount of time. But I really love Kiss. I really love pre-Arena Kiss because...

Arena kiss makes sense. Kissing the clubs is like, what the fuck are you guys doing? You guys are the openers. You're hanging a sign? We're on after you. Who's going to be taking that down? Are you going to be doing that? Exactly. Is that when we play too? Can they put a sheet in front of it or something? It's just so ballsy and crazy and so much dedication and heart.

But once it was in the stadiums, it was like, okay, big deal. But when it was just, I just found, I just, I love looking at, I follow a whole bunch of like kiss stupid stuff on Instagram just to like. I just love the pictures of them in 75. Yeah. They're just so hungry and so cool. And anyway, and Gene Simmons, like he was kind of before, he was kind of like singing like, like he was singing like, yes, I think I'm going. Like he was a cool singer too, but like everything got right. But anyway, what am I talking about? Then I opened up my own business. And that's how I came to Farm Alpacas. Yeah. How about, so we've talked a lot about how like the songs, all the different songs from the different writers fit on the record and maybe the democracy and stuff. I'm reminded of Commonwealth.

where you actually split it up. And I think it was something where it's like, oh, when that came out, it's like, yeah, I guess they've never done that. That's the thing that they haven't done. So did you look at that as a challenge? Or speaking of KISS, remember when they did the solo records? Yes. So the record of which you speak is a double record on vinyl and where we usually sequence the record compilation style, like the Beatles revolver or whatever. So different stylistic changes that careen into each other. And the more different, kind of the better or whatever. We had been accused.

People have criticized us. It's like, this record is okay, but it's like a compilation, but that never bothers me. It's like, so is Revolver. So are the greatest records of all time. And so, yeah, the record Commonwealth was, we decided we were not going to sequence it like a compilation. We were going to sequence it like four mini solo EPs kind of thing. So the flow of each side kind of works almost as a piece in and of itself, like as a record in and of itself. Yeah, or not. It was up to you if you wanted to do it. Whatever you wanted to fly with. Yeah, so Andrews is one long.

One long song, which is kind of like six or so sub songs that are kind of smashed together. Patrick's are kind of unrelated. Jay's kind of flow together. I don't know if they all flow together. Mine kind of flow together. But yeah, we didn't want there to be a side one, two, three, or four. So that was Commonwealth was done up. The motif of that record is like playing cards. Each of us is depicted as a king of the suit of cards. And so there's side diamonds, side hearts, side spades, side clubs. So it's supposed to be non-hierarchical or whatever.

But it's kind of alphabetical. It's like J, then me, then Patrick, then... Right, right, right. Well, and it's something where it's, again, it's a way of presenting, you know, Sloan in a way that, you know, true heads will know, right? But like... Yes, I think that my point in undertaking it was we're one of the only bands that can do this. Yeah, exactly. You know, it's like, who else is going to do this? Like, Sebato? Like, Queen? But the thing is, like...

Freddie Mercury sang all the songs. We're each taking turns singing. I think that we are unique in that aspect. I really think that you can't count a lot of bands that do what we do. And it's hard to keep it together.

What was my point? So, yeah, so it was fun to think about, okay, now, because when I'm writing a song, I don't know what's coming before or after it. You know, sometimes we'll echo each other's song motifs. Okay, that'll come later in the record. But I never want to, we always make it so that I don't follow myself. I'm always sandwiched by the other guys, and it's always the case. So it was fun to try to come up with, you know, sort of 16, 17 minutes of songs. Like, how am I going to lay this out? Because I have, now I have the power to sort of pre-plan it. So that was a fun exercise. But...

In my mind, we have another double record called Never Hear the End of It. I think it's more successful because it is sequenced like a compilation. And I like, that's one of the things I like about our band is the always changing styles. I like Commonwealth. I think it was a worthwhile project to do, but I don't think it's as good as Never Hear the End of It as a comparison. It's almost like the pseudo-comp aspect of things kind of plays to the strengths of the band. I think so. Yeah, I think so. Which leads me to, if you think about sequencing and when things are fitting together, what comes into play? I mean, there's certain...

obviously there's vibe there's like okay that's that's in this key you know that like has like yeah we do a bit of that yeah i mean because sometimes we've done we've done records where we try to like you know so this the last chord of this is the same as the first chord of that so we'll cut off the last note of that and it'll go right into that whatever we do some of that too and um but sometimes it just becomes relentless so you have to make breaks i don't think there's anything that i have to say on the matter that is uh uh illuminating but uh i love sequencing and i love i i we have two double records uh and as i say i prefer doing uh never hear the end of it because it is a compilation style but It was so much fun to sequence that because we had 30 things to sequence. It's a lot. And then you've got to think about, as a listener, you're going to be taking them on a ride and taking them to certain places. And I didn't mean to interrupt, sorry, but when people talk about, oh, it plays like a compilation. Man, a good compilation is a skill. Just sequencing a record is a skill. Yeah. I mean, these records are brilliant, but it's like, oh, why did you put that there? Like, this would be, this is, no. At least that's how I thought it was. Well, I'm sure we've done that, too. I mean, when we did Between the Bridges, it starts with a...

slow song you know we up until then we were kind of like well you have to start with something exciting to bring people in yeah and then we started with a slow song and then it was a huge then it tanked and then we're like did we make a fucking huge mistake here right right so it's like the good in everyone or yeah or something yeah to start off with yeah so you know we had rock song we should have started with losing california but why did we not do that so stupid but um you know we were just trying to make the records different than each other we didn't always want to have the same template but uh the thing is with four writers you only get on a 12 song record you only get three chances so I would say that, you know, I'm usually trying to come in with three, not necessarily commercial, but three well-crafted, proper songs. But when we did Never Hear the End of It, when I think I had 14 songs on that record, you know, I had song snippets and weirder songs. Like, I think it's more, it was, I think you should do a double record every time. Yeah. Because it's sort of like everything for the kitchen sink. Yeah, well, I think Guided by Voice is what's...

You know, on B1000, yeah, there are, like, lots of song snippets, and, like, they take lots of chances, and that's what's exciting. It's like an exciting magazine. Like, oh, my God, what's on the next page? It's, like, it's exciting at every turn. And, you know, I guess I think that when you only get three chances, they become a little bit conservative. It's like, well, I don't want to put a song experiment that just took me 20 minutes to come up. Like, I want to come up with well-crafted... Anyway, it was fun to do the double records, and I almost wish that we would do double records every time, because...

we could because we have four writers but you know it's expensive to record for that long and all that kind of stuff do you when you're when you're writing is it more inspiration or perspiration or is it you know some combination of the two and i think about like nick k for instance he talks about how he goes you know he like puts on suit no time optional puts on shoes yeah and like and bangs it out and some days there's something there and some days not so much yeah i would say that mine is i don't know how to answer within Like that sort of, is it perspiration or inspiration? If I ever have the time, so I had kids, and so your time goes way down. But my kids are older now. And so when iPhones started having, like it used to be that I would sing into my answering machine. Like I would call my house and sing into my answering machine. And then I would hold a mic by the thing and like record that. And so then like a lot of my songs are from answering machines. And now with the phone, like with voice memos, like, oh, that's an idea. And then you just piece them together. Like I'm not a special anything. Like I need to work to do it. Anything that I'm perceived as good at.

It's because I put the time in. I wasn't born with anything. I didn't take piano as a kid. I don't have a sophisticated understanding of music. And when I think about the songs that are like, I love this one too, it's really special. But if I put a capo on and realize they're all kind of the same, probably. I get sick of myself, which is why I'm glad to be in a band with other people who bring other things to the record. They can throw you a curveball in something that's unexpected.

Eagles Clash and stuff like I would say that Patrick when he started out he was kind of like this wallflower then by the third record became I'm fully invested in this and then he had a string of it was all his singles for a couple years there yeah yeah yeah and then I'd be like hey Patrick why don't you he's like I think I know what I'm doing dude like get lost I was like oh okay whatever cream and two sugars Mr. Pentland but uh totally but he found his voice and like and found his place in the hand and found what was for him Yeah, and probably felt for a couple of records under the thumb of, like, he used to refer to Jay and me as the alt-gestapo. They were always like, you can't do that. You can't do that. Right, right. You had all the rules that thou shalt not. Yeah, we fought, you know, all of the trappings of the rules of punk and indie rock and college radio and, you know, everybody's a sellout or, you know, a lot of rules. Yeah, and I always have to give a caveat for the younger listeners. That used to be a big thing that, especially in the 90s, people talked about a lot. But you don't think that, you don't think that.

I know that music gets used a lot more in ads and stuff like that that would have been at one point abhorrent, but don't you think that credibility and the suggestion is that people don't understand what selling out is anymore? That's kind of what you're saying? I'm speaking somewhat facetiously, but I think the younger listeners... I know what you mean. It's not like I've been under a... I'm asking you to... Well, Chris, let me explain it to you. What happened? I feel like there's less of a... It was an all-encompassing part of the conversation in the 90s, and I feel like it's less...

Just by nature of how everything operates now, it's less in the conversation in that same way. And I think something that is insincere or kind of a, you know, you invoked the Miniman earlier, as Mike Watt would say, Mersch about things. I think that still shines through and people can smell it a mile away. But I think it hits differently when it's... In a modern context, it hits differently than it did... I guess I'm saying stuff is different now than it used to be. I don't know what I'm saying. But it's... No, I do. It's...

it was a different vibe in the 90s. It was especially when the majors kind of decided, oh, we can just manufacture our own alt bands, right? So you have these ostensible boy bands put together that are going down the circuit along with other bands that had lived it and breathed it and, you know, the archetype. Right, and as I sort of, you could say that we're like that. I know that there was a whole essay of Thurston Moore shitting on Weezer. I forget what it was, but I would be like, in my mind, when the first Weezer record came out, I'd be like...

kind of more into Weezer than Sonic Youth. It's like heavy cars. The songs are good. It's pop music. To me, it just sounded like Sonic Youth. I have nothing against Sonic Youth, and I appreciate what's great about them. But they were basically, I think, kind of felt like they could wave their magic wand. It's like, these guys can't come in.

And in my mind, it was kind of like, because their songs are better. Well, because their songs are better. Yeah, yeah. Like, because you guys, you have a cool thing. And whatever, whatever. I don't want to come off this. No, no, because I think Sonic Youth. No, no, but you're on this thing. So I had Alex Newport on somewhat recently from the band Fudge Tunnel from the 90s. And Theory of Ruin, Nailball, a bunch of other things. But, like, he's an unabashed Weezer fan. And, like, a lot of...

Fans of the show that were like, we'll call it purveyors of the heavy. We're just like, oh, you know, how could he? And it's like, well, they're good songs, man. Like, you know, it's not for you. That's fine. He's a producer. You know, like Doom bands coming in sound like third grade Melvins. Of course he does. Right. Well, I, well, I heard your Stephen McDonald one where, where he was saying that they were Melvins fans that would, you know, you've got the can of beer in the face or whatever. And it's like, he's bringing the show, man. Like, if you don't like it, okay. But like, come on. That's so, he's a treasure. He's a national treasure, Stephen McDonald. Yes. But I, but I, but, you know.

Red Cross, Weezer, Sloan. I mean, I think that that's different than Sonic Youth, say. But... But where's Nirvana? Nirvana had great songs. Sonic Youth don't have that many great songs. Nirvana had amazing songs. I mean, I guess maybe it speaks to some of your sound bands. I was going to say, I adore Sonic Youth. My favorite Sonic Youth was Goo, their commercial stuff. And they have been a song band, but the vast majority of Sonic Youth's career, they have definitely been a sound band, for sure. But it's art. I get it, but I never listen to it.

I'm behind it, but I'm not listening to it. Right, totally. And it's... Well, it's interesting to hear your perspective on that because I hear a lot of what you're saying, I actually am completely 100% up in mind with you on that. But you articulate too much of the stuff and you sound like a crank or whatever, but it's like, okay, I mean, you should be putting walls up. Punk rock or whatever isn't about putting walls up and making rules necessarily, but it's like, oh, these guys can be let in, these guys can't. Yes, but the flip side of, oh, people don't know about paying dues or people don't know about selling out anymore, it's like, maybe, but at the same time, maybe it could be framed as people don't have a couple of, you know, people like Sonic use, I don't mean to hold against them.

Saying who can who can play who can't you know, it's like there's no gatekeepers anywhere. There's no gatekeeper I mean, but the thing is like I knew I knew that uh, what's the band that's saying like let's jail Whatever. I knew that that was terrible. Like, it's not like, I mean, but I like, and I knew, and I also knew that, what's the Scott Whelan's band called? Stone Temple Pilots? Stone Temple Pilots, yeah. Yeah, they weren't allowed in, because they were like these gross, but they had some of the greatest songs. Like, they had great songs. They got a couple tunes where like, if you were to do a blind, like, taste test, listening, I guess not a taste test, but like, people would be like, oh, that's good, who is that? And be like, you'd be surprised. Whenever they came out, I was like, look at these fucking idiots. But then when Big Bang, when Big Bang Baby came out, I was like,

This is awesome. These guys are great. Then it's like, look at these fucking idiots. Yeah, I mean, anyway, but... No, I agree. That was a harsh epiphany for me as a record store snob of being like... Of course, of course. It was like, do I have to like these guys? Yeah, this sucks. I can't believe I'm in this position right now. But at the same time, you know, but it's also like we all kind of bought into the goofiness of... It's goofy to not... Anyway.

I grew up into punk rock and stuff, and I'm only now able to like certain songs that came out at a time when I would have never liked that song. I don't know, like a Phil Collins song or whatever. I'm like, oh, that's great. That's heavy. Genesis is heavy. I wasn't going to allow myself to listen to it back when I obeyed all the rules or whatever. Yeah, if you're listening to Black Flag and someone throws on Chicago, you're going to be like, what the? And they're like, oh, actually, you know, this guy slams. There's some total BS. Okay. Anyway, basically, I understand. I came from that time, and I know what it's like.

to define yourself by the music you listen to. It's like, I can't like that anymore because that's what the jocks listen to. And Kurt Cobain is sad because jocks like his music or whatever. But it's also all kind of laughable now that I'm older. It's like, who cares?

Can you, very briefly, and Chris, I want to thank you so much for your time. This has been awesome. Oh, you're great. Yeah, thanks for having me. Thanks for having me. It's a great story. You told it on your solo show that I saw about Scott Pilgrim. And I think it's such an interesting story. And we spent a lot of time talking about Stone Temple Pilots, so we don't have a ton of time left. But if you could give me a version of it, I think it's so fascinating. Because I really love that movie. And you had a huge part in the music, the actual music that these actors were meant to play.

I had no part of the music. The music was made by Broken Social Scene and Beck and Metric. Right. The presentation of the music, I mean to say. Sorry. Well, I was called in to try to help make the non-musician actors look like they could play. And I had what I call varying degrees of success. Some of the actors were determined to do a good job. Alison Pill worked her ass off to make it look like she could play drums, and she had never picked up the drums. Mark Webber, who had never picked up a guitar and was the guitar player in the main band.

Did not try very hard and was always like after a take he look over me like winking like I did it and I'd be like dude you suck But so Edgar Wright Edgar Wright the director asked me if I if it bothered me when bands looks like they couldn't play in the movies And I said yes, so he gave me this job. It was a lot of fun Michael Cera is hilarious I didn't get to work with him that much because he already know how to play Yeah, you could play yeah, but I was kind of babysitting these actors and and and But there were some actors, like Edgar Wright was really into making. It was based on a graphic novel, and he really wanted the actors to look like these cartoons. So he was like, there was some guy in the band that had no lines in some other band, and I had to teach him to play guitar from scratch. I'm like, I can't spend any time with this guy. He has no lines. Get a different guy who plays. Get a bass player. As if there's nobody that can act that plays guitar in this world. That's what he, he didn't even need to act. He just needed to play bass. Just stand there. Just stand there and play bass. And he didn't look like the cartoon and play bass. Anyway, I got that guy fired. And that guy, Nigel Godrich, is a buddy of Edgar's, and he saw some of the...

footage of them rehearsing after Edgar saw it and loved it because Edgar doesn't know what it looks like to be playing it wrong. And I met Nigel and he's like, yeah, I saw the footage. It looks terrible. And I'm like, well, where was I at casting? Like these people don't, they're not players. These are non-musicians playing music. Yeah. That's what, that's what he does in the movie, but he doesn't play like anyway. So he ended up getting people fired and I felt terrible, but it was super fun to be on that movie and everybody, I was being, it was being talked about, like I was the musical director of the movie or something. So everybody was contacting me to get their music in the movie.

And I was like, how do I get my music in the movie? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hey, if I figure it out, I'll let you know. But I think there are a couple of Sloan t-shirts. And Brian Lee O'Malley, who drew Scott Pilgrim, the graphic novel, he had lived in Halifax for a while where we grew up. And he knew Sloan and liked us enough. And a lot of this kind of indie rock that came out of that town. There was a band called Plumtree that had a song called Scott Pilgrim. And the whole thing is based on that. Anyway, that was a super fun experience. And during that experience, I got hit by a car on my bike and broke my collarbone. So I didn't get to finish that job. But I was not brain damaged, killed.

Paralyzed or disfigured. And you got some tunes out of it. There was that EP, right? Yeah, but our next thing after that was an EP called Hit and Run because the driver took off. From the Planet of the Apes school of naming things. It's exactly what you think of in the title.

I don't know that joke, but that's good. I don't know if it's a joke. It's just a thing that I say. But you know what I'm talking about. Snakes on a Plane? Snakes on a Plane is from the planet of the School of Naming Things. It's the title. You know everything you need to know when you hear the title. Right. Okay. So, Chris, yeah, thank you so much. This has been awesome, man. I really appreciate having you on and talking to you. This has been great. You had Albini on a bunch of times. I'll come back. I got more to say. I was going to say, I would love to have you back sometime. You've heard the show. Generally speaking, if it's not a special or something, I usually close it by just asking a single question, which is, why do you do what you do?

Because I was given an opportunity at a time when the music business came looking for things other than the worst kinds of music. And I was given an opportunity to do something with my life. And I made it so that my opportunity could last if we kept working and that everybody would stay interested. And that's what I just had my head down doing it for 30 years. And I'm beyond grateful to be able to do it. And I have a modest living. I'm not rich. But I've made a living and I'm super lucky. And I'm not going to let go of this opportunity I got 30 years ago.

Very good. And you've got some more of these solo shows coming up. People should go to your Instagram, Sloan Dude, right? Yeah, Sloan Dude, Instagram. But just a warning that I'm playing all different shows, so it gets some deep cuts on there. So if you only know a couple of Sloan songs, you might be like, what the hell is this shit? But I think there are some people who are Sloan lifers who are...

who are loving it. I mean, I've got a pretty good understanding of the catalog, and you played a bunch of stuff, and I'm like, I ain't heard of this stuff before. But it was cool. It was all really cool, and I enjoyed it, and I liken it to seeing Tom Petty do the same thing. I don't know if you're a Tom Petty fan, but I saw it. You know, I'm not, but we'll talk about it next time. Okay, all right. Not a big deal, but it was a similar situation where, like, a lot of times you pulled out, I'm like, I ain't heard of this before. You know, like, what the hell is this? You know, but, like, it was interesting as an overall vibe and an overall thing. Yeah. And I'm a harsh critic of the solo show, by the way. Yeah, and I don't like them. I never wanted to do them. That's why I haven't done them until now. Like, I like bands

thing that I'm doing it but it's sort of out of necessity and it's something I kind of always secretly wanted to do so it's super fun and I just like while I can't just I can't expand on my Tom Petty thing I have nothing against him if anybody's like what Tom Petty is the greatest nicest guy he is so so we'll talk if you ever talk to me again I'll expand on how I don't like Americana we'll save it we'll save it for next time and I look forward to that day thank you so much for having me Chris thanks so much man really appreciate it really appreciate it right on bye there he goes oh Mr. Chris Murphy all right down to it yeah Trump's lies the song I completely forgot to talk about

that those guys, Sloane, Sloane, by the way, that is that Sloane that is playing that tune. Fucking awesome single. Completely forgot to talk about that. 100% forgot to talk about that. Dumb. Dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb. And before that, of course, she says what she means. One of the finest first songs on a record ever. Yeah, sure. Also by Sloane, that's on Navy Blues. What a fucking cool guy. Pardon my goddamn French, but what a cool guy. That was a wrap. I hope you guys enjoyed that. Chris Murphy, Chris Murphy Sloane, Sloane Dude on Instagram.

What an incredible musical light that guy's had. I'd love to have him on again sometime. Hint, hint, hint. Yeah! The name of the show is Conan Neutron's Protonic Reversal. Thank you so much for listening to it. This show airs on Radio Note Thursdays, 8 p.m. Eastern, 7 Central, 6 Mount 5 Pacific. ProtonicReversal.com for the archives. Patreon.com slash ProtonicReversal to hear the episodes. Quicker. One dollar a month will get you there. VIP access. 50,000 watts of power.

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