Episode 12 - Legal Interpretation and the Conversational Model (ft. Francesca Poggi)

In this episode, we delve into the topic of legal interpretation and its theoretical foundations. What are the core elements of a rigorous account of legal interpretation? How has the conversational model — drawing on ideas about communication and pragmatics — shaped the field in recent decades? What are the main positions within this approach, and who are its key proponents? And if we move away from the conversational paradigm, how should we think about the standards by which an interpretation can be evaluated? Is objectivity in interpretation something we truly need, or can we do without it?Francesca Poggi joins us to explore these questions and to present her own account of legal interpretation. We discuss the appeal and the limitations of grounding legal interpretation in the theory of conversation, examining the structural differences between ordinary communicative exchanges and the interpretation of legal texts. Poggi identifies the key problems with the conversational model and outlines an alternative framework — one that takes seriously the question of how to assess interpretive outcomes once the assumption of objectivity is put under pressure.Francesca Poggi is full professor at the Department in legal science "Cesare Beccaria" at the University of Milan, where she coordinates the PhD programme in legal science "Cesare Beccaria". She teaches on numerous Italian and international master's and advanced courses. Her research interests range from general jurisprudence to bioethics and gender legal studies, always with a particular focus on legal interpretation.She has published in international journals such as Jurisprudence, Revus, and Ratio juris, and has co-edited volumes such as ⁠Interpretivism and the Limits of Law  (Edward Elgar, 2022) and Law and Pragmatics, vol. I and vol. II⁠ (Springer, 2016 and 2017). Her latest book is Il modello conversazionale (ETS, 2020).[This episode was hosted by Julieta Rabanos and Bojan Spaić; edited by Bojan Spaić; uploaded and formatted by Julieta Rabanos](00:00:05) Intro – HAPL Podcast(00:00:19) Introduction to the Episode – Hosts and Guest(00:00:56) Francesca Poggi – Academic Path and Research Interests(00:03:32) Main Elements of Poggi's Account of Legal Interpretation(00:09:36) An Open Problem – Why Are There Fewer Judicial Conflicts Than Expected?(00:12:30) The Conversational Model – A Broad Overview(00:17:09) Main Criticisms – Legislative Intention and the Problem of Collective Intentionality(00:20:48) The Indeterminacy of Legal Context vs. Ordinary Conversation(00:24:19) The Core Distinction Between Legal Interpretation and Conversation(00:27:16) Is Legal Interpretation Ever Cooperative?(00:31:21) Objectivity in Legal Interpretation – Is It Possible or Necessary?(00:33:55) Evaluating Interpretations Without Objectivity – The "Never-Ending Dance"(00:37:44) Legal Culture, Values, and Constraints on Judicial Discretion(00:41:38) Realism Is Not Arbitrariness – Determinants of Interpretive Convergence(00:44:37) Constitutionalized Legal Systems and the Failure of the Conversational Model(00:56:22) Democratic Consequences – Does This Picture Threaten the Rule of Law?(00:59:51) The Ideal Legislator Dogma and Its Modern Reincarnation as the Competent Speaker Model(01:05:00) Connection Between the Competent Speaker Model and the Conversational Approach(01:06:05) Closing Remarks and Farewell(01:07:05) Outro – HAPL Podcast