Hello welcome to sitcom geeks I'm Dave Cohen and I'm James Carey today we have decided and in fact today and in fact next podcast we decided we're going to look at a list that's been kind of doing the rounds on social media and it comes from Emma Emmer Coates from Pixar yes that's right she's Pixar storyboard artist and actually it's been doing the rounds I mean I've got a link here to it from or possibly 2012 so it's gone round around but we just thought it would be useful to you know what what a Pixar getting right and what can we learn from them because really I mean nobody is getting it quite as right as Pixar is consistently yeah I don't know I mean they probably have technically had a failure you know they're one or two that haven't done amazingly but overall yeah they really have you know not pretty much every time yeah so when Pixar say there are 22 rules that you should follow yeah then there are 22 rules that you should follow yeah and one thing that I'm going to try and do to be a little bit topical I've been watching the latest series of Friday night dinner which is series six I think now so so we're about 30 plus episodes in written by one person and it's still the most consistently funny show I think I'm terrestrial TV at this point I'm not sure you're not crazy I didn't go I didn't go for it at the very start and then and then I thought oh I'll catch up with it it's a bit like peep show what I watch the first series or two and then for whatever reason didn't get back into it because I was like right now I just thought well they'll probably stop after four series and then I'll watch it but then they just kept making them and making them and making them and I just thought well I'm never gonna get so now I've actually got now they finished making it I should probably start watching it again but I just you know who's got time to do that so I mean even with global lockdowns I still don't have time to watch episodes sitcoms I should have watched by now indeed yes so yes so if you want to find this rule a list of rules if you just google 22 rules of storytelling according to Pixar you will be presented with about 30 different options and so we are going to talk about numbers 1 2 11 and with occasional references to Friday night dinner and I will also fold in references to other shows and also Dave you started watching the Marvelous Mrs. Maisel I believe that's correct yes I'm very exciting yeah and very much enjoying that and being able to educate my children about this particular time in the world in America I know a great deal about yeah because it's about some the early days of stand-up comedy so they were very impressed when I was able to dig out one of my old Lenny Bruce books and discover that actually oh what Lenny Bruce was a real person right which is a reasonable thing to ask if you watch Mrs. Maisel because all the characters there do seem to be kind of model on sort of real people I think that's not me she's sort of Joan Rivers but she's sort of not really isn't she yeah I think Joan Rivers is pretty much the nearest parallel but it isn't Joan Rivers and then there's also another character who's a bit like Phyllis Diller who was a sort of great character actor who played this sort of very very kind of well not homes by a sort of a loud abrasive New York Jewish mother but is actually was a sort of really posh woman and I love the idea we'll get into this little pixelist in a moment but I love the idea Dave that despite the fact that you've written dozens and dozens hundreds possibly of horrible history songs your kids finally give you respect over the fact that you know a bit about Lenny Bruce I love that yeah they kind of I think they sort of come around to horrible is just because there are a few of their friends now who say oh yeah horrible history I like that song and I like that song and then they come home and they say I did you write that out yeah yeah I wrote that so great so as their as their writings get bigger they start to see that actually always is a slightly big a deal than they thought it was yeah has a bit more traction you know across the country anyway there we go so we should we should dive in as they like to say upon us or jump in dive in yeah okay dig deep dig deep dig deep dig deep dig deep dig in dig in dig deep dig in dig deep dig in dig well that's a new one for me yeah dig well people's about digging into the script yeah and all that so number one day which I'm sure you've given much thought to so number one on the list of Pixar story-telling rules is you admire character for trying more for trying more than for their successes. I'm sorry I'll read that again.
You admire a character for trying more than for their successes. You were correct there should have been a comma after trying definitely. But yeah it's a great I remember actually a friend of mine I called Andy Linden, stand up comedian, very funny guy. He's um you would recognize him because he he was a character in one of the Harry Potter movies but he had this idea for a boxer.
He never got around to making it. So Shane he said this boxer had 146 fights and he lost everyone each time he came back and he told me yeah what a what an amazing heroic character. And I think it's it's uh yeah I mean I think that's almost more of a kind of English thing than an American. Yes.
What you say. It's not gonna matter. Americans need to hear that more than a British audience because we we love I mean it's a Bill Bailey quote I think I'm English and therefore I crave disappointment. I think it was one of his early intro lines.
Um and so yeah we we don't have so Eddie the Eagle is both a national treasure and then it's an easy no brainer movie to make isn't it the life story of you know extreme and unsuccessful or winter Olympian. Yeah and actually um I think that um Jeff Norcott that's the sound of comedian he put a thing on um Twitter the other day and he got he got into a sort of argument with somebody because he said uh you know this kind of um this idea that from of kind of doing yourself down and and disappointment is such a sort of English thing and you know we shouldn't be like that he was sort of arguing with someone who was saying it and I said well actually no we're brilliant at it. It's the best thing about Britain is our crushing sense of disappointment. It's just our self-effing.
Yeah. Yeah so but also yeah I think it's it's having sympathy with a character and and making sure that they are trying to succeed. You want to give them a reason to succeed and a reason for us to cheer on for that cheer them on even if we don't really want the thing that they want and for some reason we're still on movies. The example I can think of a great underdog movie in that nobody gave a movie a chance at the start is Four Weddings and a Funeral and if you're British at least you really don't want Hugh Grant to get together with Andy McDowell long term do you?
Um because for what for a variety of reasons? Um she's not actually very nice and we all want him to get together with Kristen Scott Thomas but when he finally gets to marry uh Andy McDowell and she accepts him in the rain and everything we are at least pleased that that's what he wanted. So we have to believe we have to like the character enough for them to want what they want because they want it not because we want it if that makes sense. Yeah it doesn't actually as you were saying that I was I was thinking of um characters who are not likable at all as well and admiring them for trying and um the idea of um battle faulty uh sort of sort of came to mind.
Yeah you know he he he is a monster uh you know he's not really a nice person he's um not good at what he does he's uh but you do get the sense that the thing that he wants and you know he's going to fail getting what he wants but you know it's uh it's compelling to watch and the key word there is you admire a character for drawing rather than you like a character for drawing and I think we admire the kind of uh get knocked down and come back up again sort of um battle faulty approach really. Yeah so I think that's you know so if every story is the same story and is the kind of a hero's quest or whatever it is um then you do need to empathize with the quest and that quest needs to make sense for them for that character so there needs to be you need some hook into it don't you really? Yeah which is so if you're writing a sitcom um and you're planning a new sitcom you do just want to make sure if it's about one people one person or two people do do we you know are we rooting for them and that's different from liking them um and people say a lot about the difference between likeability and empathy and that kind of stuff um you know victim elder is not really likable but we do have sympathy for him um you know what he is sort of defiant but he's actually not you know in actual fact he's a perfectly nice man it says if you push it or push him for one side he will he will go off and when he has a go at neighbors about all kids throwing rubbish on his garden you know we are we are at one smocking him and also admiring him for doing what we dead and do because we're so sort of um English and straight laced uh so yeah that's that's good should we move on to the bottom? Should I read number two?
Yeah. You've got to keep in mind what's interesting to you as an audience not what's fun to do as a writer they can be very different that's uh yeah I mean that's that's an interesting one I mean it is that that that that the way that that's often expressed is um the other version of that is you have to kill your babies in other words the things that you like about your script the most are uh not necessarily you know the last things that you get rid of um they aren't necessarily the best things for the script but you are so attached to them um that um that you know you you do you do have to get rid of that. I was reading a book last night by a singer-songwriter and author actually called Andrew Peterson and he's a Christian guy he lives in uh Tennessee and in Nashville and he's written some kids books actually they are actually fantastic that my kids really like called the wing feather saga um and they're sort of like fantasy kind of thing um but he was talking about songwriting in this book called Adorning the Dark I think it's cool and he was saying when he was starting out he's about the artist's process to some extent and he was saying that every producer when a young songwriter comes to them with a song it's always the same problem it's always too long and they always they always know that it's too long but there's a special reason as to why their song needs to be longer than most other songs you know if a song is three to four minutes you know their songs are always four five six seven minutes but they always have a reason why they should be and he says you know he's gone back to songs where he really died on a hill for them to be longer and has replayed them later in live concerts and just thought I had to cut that extra chorus and that extra bridge and that extra bit because this is just too long. Well if you look at some you know look at the most successful writers I mean the mega successful writers and um Harry Potter is a good example of that the first um Harry Potter book is I know what 250 pages it's a it's a cracking read it's a very quick read and then it becomes a huge success and then book two is maybe a little bit longer and by the time book two comes out um jk rolling is unassailable and you know what's always said by book four because I think books one and two came out and worked did okay book three and there's something all they might be movies book four is a real dog stopper isn't it?
Well reading out to my kids I really I became aware about halfway through book three that if there was an editor involved they were no longer able to say uh you couldn't just possibly cut this down a bit could you and it's you know no it's what the kids want you know who am I to argue I'm sure that book seven sold as many as book one probably more and but but definitely without having the restraints of an editor saying this is too long you need to cut it um those Harry Potter books were easily the four and five and six I think I got as far as they're good 200 pages too long um and you know we don't have that luxury uh because we don't we can't say you don't know I know I'm keeping it long while I say oh well we're not making it um so yeah there's always a reason for it to be longer there's always a reason as to why it needs to be different and in a way it's not for us to say there's never a reason for this or that it's just a question of really checking yourself and do you really know better do you really you know do you know and occasionally you get a game changer you just come straight out of the gate and it's just sort of doing stuff but I think it's just worth bearing in mind yeah I mean you I'm interested to think to ask you about this in terms of the process because you've written so much more uh TV um so many more TV sitcom episodes than I have the difference between so when you were writing uh Hub 33 um and you know it's basically you and the producer and you kind of decide between you but then it goes to telly and it's not just about hearing voices it's about seeing stuff and and locations and and buying props and all that stuff and you know how well at that point the temptation I think the more complicated it is for like for TV the more that arrogant writer in you potentially wants to make it less rather than more and so it's as if going anywhere and doing anything is cheating and you want to give yourself really tight rules to stick to and then you want to kind of you want to write yourself into a corner and write yourself out of it again and therefore you get bottle episodes which I think you know in a sitcom situation it's like the characters are trapped in a lift you know all of the all of the normal things you can do to distract people taking away taking away and now you need to really dig into your characters and write some amazing pinterest you know Samuel Beckett star itself and actually they're not normally the best episodes and I remember with Miranda we tried to do a Richard and I I think maybe pitch series one a bottle episode and even in series two and I think with the psychiatrist episode which happens in real time it was only very late in the day that Miranda was happy with that because she basically just said I know that you writers as it were like to be clever but I just want to make people laugh and you go yeah I was just trying to be clever to be honest and in the end it is one of my favorite episodes I don't know it's one of my favorites maybe because you're a writer but it's quite what I mean is it can easily be vanity and I think in the end that episode is not vanity but you know but they end up taking up more time writing wise than any other right even though that episode was really easy to film because I think they filmed it in an hour you know it's not when that was there was some retakes but that's sort of it but it just feels like you you just spend a lot of time on the script and it's not immediately obvious that the audience liked it more yeah so there's a facetime episode of of modern family isn't there the whole episode of facetime that is brilliant and he's memorable but I still want but we like it as writers but I don't know if it's his favorite one yeah I'm fact I just I remembered I was going to talk about Friday night dinner just thinking about the fact that you can look at any episode of Friday night dinner and and they are exactly the same the only thing that's changed is is the model of car each year so that's the only character changes the car that the two boys turn up in and so they they turn up and they turn up for Friday night dinner and mum is there and dad is there and Jim comes around with the dog and things go wrong and you know but they resolve at the end and that's week in week out and the temptation to kind of step away from that must must be a normal space absolutely rigidly stuck to it because in a way that's format which on another show might be a clever episode to do it all in one evening because sitcoms tend to take place over the course of 24 36 48 hours but he might be tempted to do an episode doesn't episode of Seinfeld very late on maybe series eight or nine I think Mike McShane is in it the whole episode starts um in a wedding in India and it just goes backwards backwards backwards and he sort of explaining how the heck do they get to this wedding in India right I thought they do remember that but there's only one episode 168 all over it you could probably earn the right to do that and I think since he was nine in particular was very very inventive um but also Larry David wasn't doing the last series and I suspect he was like he didn't he go and he stopped doing like series seven and eight or something and come back for the last series no no I think he just came back for the last episode or something but yeah so there's an episode where it ends up where George is playing an episode it's like playing Frogger trying to get something across you know a two you know a highway right and so it becomes very tricky but as I say once once you've done 160 of something you probably have exhausted it and you do need to be a bit clever yeah but don't don't start there I don't think yeah would be my would be my thing should we move on to okay number three okay trying for theme is important but you won't see what the story is actually about till you're at the end of it now rewrite fourth now that's very interesting because just before we started this podcast I had a thought about our sitcom that we're trying to write um and I've been spending a lot of time um and we both have really kind of thinking about the theme and what's about a couple of weeks ago a friend of ours who we showed it to said you know the best sitcoms have the simplest themes and possibly what you've got is a bit of a kind of difficult theme to sell and actually so I just thought of something that that kind of keeps it as it is but has a much simpler but imposes a kind of simpler story on it and that front out of which the themes may come yeah I think that's uh I think that's not a not a bad point I just tend to point me off that so if you want to hear lots of episodes of that it's called sitcom suit and nuts and there are at least 14 episodes of Dave and I talking about it maybe 15 right now and we're just basically walking you through how you create a show and just these are the lengths we go to to think about it from all angles and all this sort of thing but what this point is saying it's interesting isn't it that even after you've written the first draft you're still discovering what it's really about and I think yeah and so what the temptation therefore is to rush to write a draft to get to that next stage but you're essentially always tricking yourself that you have cracked what the show is really about every stage so with the outline you're trying to absolutely nail it so the script is just oh you know I've cracked it and then you write the first draft and then you realize you hadn't nailed it but now you've nailed it and then you read it back and then you're as you hadn't nailed it with the first draft and then you go back and re-write it again yeah I mean I think it's a hard one because I think you know I've spent a lot of time in the last year and it's partly through all these scripts that we read for our competition and recently I've been reading a lot of scripts for the BBC writers room and separating out what is the theme of your sitcom and what is happening in this episode yeah and it's a common mistake and all writers make it even you know very successful writers of the episode one is the theme there isn't actually a story and and it's kind of you kind of I sort of feel like I have an idea what the theme is when I'm starting out that I don't necessarily have the actual it's not nailed but it's kind of well it feels like it's sort of about a fish out of water or it's about do you think would you call that a theme well I think this overlaps actually with the with with number four actually on our list and so and the reason I say that is because I think we're so used to movies and lots of people now writing sitcoms that sort of people that used to watch a lot of movies as well as sitcoms and in a movie you don't need an episode you just need a theme that we then see expressed at the beginning of the end it's done so let me just read number four on the pixel list is once upon a time there was a blank every day blank that's correct one basically one day blank because of that exciting incident at the end of act one day blank because of that blank because of that blank until finally blank so what that's giving you is it's also making sure that your story is not a series of events this and then this and then this but this and therefore this and therefore this and therefore this and so I think it feels like if you write your first episode that you've written an episode but actually you've written the story and maybe you've even written a very short movie that may be even slightly underwhelming in some ways and there were one or two scripts that we've read where I just thought you know and actually good scripts where I just thought I don't know what the next episode of this would be because it feels like this show is about a character's quest to do this and we've seen it with the beginning of the middle and end and I don't know what another version of this quest is going to look like that maybe a lack of imagination on my part and it wasn't obvious and that's that's fine but but I think also part of that is down to the fact that we get so many shows that are led by writer-performers that they are they very rarely get beyond two series you know and they have a very successful first series and then the writer-performer feels well I've done that I can't I can't take it any further and so they stretch it to a second series which even then maybe is stretching it but then then they that's it you know and so like flea bag or the office or home you know these are these series have a that they are they are more like self-contained stories than sitcom you know they have they have resolution and I mean that's the point about these Pixar thing it is about movies but I mean we can apply it but yeah that that where they say until finally dot dot but of course in a sitcom finally doesn't happen it goes every day x happens one day something else happens because of that the character does something and it all goes horribly wrong or horribly right and then because of that it goes even worse or even better but then but then the the difference with sitcom is oh and then it all falls apart and ends up back where it was at the beginning and you know it sounds so nuts people are writing movie scripts in the sense of we just keep fighting so now sometimes we're getting scripts we read scripts where something happens on page 10 which starts the story but again that's probably fine if you're showing once upon a time there was an everyday this you've got 10 pages because you've got 10 minutes because people have paid 10 quid to actually go and watch your movie and they're not going to walk out after 10 minutes going well this is boring um you're establishing a world before the hero has their quest and leaves it in a sitcom you've got 28 minutes maybe 24 or 22 depending on whether you're on nbc or whatever and so you've you really need that you've got your once upon a time and every day that's your opening title sequence your title and your first 10 seconds you know it's your by page two page three you need the one day this and because of that that so by the time you get to page 10 you're already on the sort of the second act third act within your you know the whole thing is a giant act too anyway but so so I think people again are using movie grammar or very slow moving tv drama grammar you know with this lockdown I thought I might finally get around to watching the wire which I've got series one on dvd I still have a DVD right and I remember somebody just saying oh yeah in the first four episodes nothing much really happens and I don't know if that's true or not but you just think wow that's four hours of just sort of fiddling around building the world apparently that's fine using drama apparently it's really not in comedy I don't think no no I agree I mean I did watch the whole of the wire you need very good subtitles to watch it there's a lot of muttering in darkness it goes on I'm not too proud of you subtitles no well I use them all the time but that's partly because I'm a death kit okay well I'm not and I can't understand people half the time so I'm including my younger daughter I keep having to tell us be clearly speak out of stuff oh this is what my mum used to say to me okay well let's go to number five um so it says simplify full stop focus full stop combine characters full stop hop over detours full stop you'll feel like you're losing valuable stuff but it sets you free Friday night dinner if I may come to the simplify focus combine characters hop over detours yeah I mean they have the same characters every week and they're the same recurring characters I know there's a show on tonight and the horrible grandma is appearing in tonight's episode and I know exactly what's going to happen because I've seen horrible grandma in one episode of every series so far so I know exactly what to expect last week Auntie Val was in and Auntie Val is in one episode a series or two sometimes when I know exactly what's going to happen with her so so that's all it's all good stuff about simplifying you know you really just strip everything away and I think about extra characters I mean it really is and I know I do it as well you have you think you've got a different character for each you know you think each this character I definitely need that character because that character is going to say this and say that which is probably true in your head but someone else says actually why don't you just get rid of that character and give that stuff to one of the other people you've already got especially if that character's not working yeah then give the plot stuff to the character that is working yeah and how do you know if a character is working or not you'll be excited by them you'll want to write stuff for them you'll want to get and that's kind of how you find these things I mean in a way this feels like a simplified focus combined characters hop over detours I would flip that on its head as a sitcom writer and just say hop over lock jams or if there's a scene by the time you're getting to write a scene you know your outline is fine and you're happy with it you get to a scene and you go I don't know how to write this scene well you know give it give it ten minutes and then give it have a cup of tea give it another ten minutes make it start typing see what happens if after an hour nothing's happening you possibly not set the scene up right then think to yourself well what happens if I don't have this scene if I just cut this scene then I'll just and I start the next scene with this you know I mean does that change anything it maybe that doesn't change anything which case there wasn't a point to that scene which is what's hard right or you could he or she could come into the next scene and we've not seen the last scene we've just heard about it they've just said well that was a disaster this happened in this then this and the next thing I know blah blah blah and here I am it's it's a bit tell you know you want to show rather than tell but actually maybe the telling might be funnier you know simplifying is often a good way of getting with a problem plots problems yeah I just not doing them is that yeah yeah yeah I mean I think also always think of that scene in the Raiders of the Lost Ark with the the guy with the whip I was in the sword and the sword and Harry's from Ford with his whip and he just oh sorry and gets the gun out and shoots which feels like a sort of seminal moment in American comedy really it's a sort of it's become the kind of way of doing a joke I've seen I've seen like a million versions of that since then I believe that I heard that it was choreographed there was this amazing fight scene that Paris and for was really ill on the day or something I just say kind of shooting they just like that we were funny so yeah he's taking his jacket off now I can see on our zoom recording that the day was really digging in now digging into business so we might even make it to number 11 let's keep going for number six what is your character good at and comfortable with throw the polar bear polar bear throw the polar opposite at them challenge them how do they deal okay yeah that's the cliche we've heard many times take your character trace them up a tree probably a polar bear chasing them absolutely yeah why not throw stones at them and then and then act act act one chase up a tree act two throw stones at them at three let them come down again so that's I see now I have a twist on that one yeah so they allow them to go up there isn't it something yeah give them a reason to go up a tree and then give them a reason to cut off the branch that they're sitting on what I mean it's like a polar bear is fine but anyone would run from a polar bear why is your character running up a tree yeah you want to really push your characters into a different difficult situation that you know it's like oh I forgot to pay my tax bill well anyway I could forget oh there's a been a problem you know my car has been crushed by a meteor okay that's I've not seen that before but it could have happened to anyone so it would be better if you have something that's more specific so I think it's good advice but I don't think it's the best advice no no but I think it is definitely also I mean the thing that I do the saw us where you define your character and you say well my character is pompous say and then you look at all the words that are like pompous and that gives you clues of things that how other people consider how they see themselves you know they see they are pompous but they see themselves as important or whatever you know so so so that's a give you clues to sort of do do things that challenge their perceptions of themselves I suppose yeah okay so let's go seven yeah come up with your ending before you figure out your middle seriously endings are hard get yours working upfront what do you have to say about that then jim i think that's excellent advice I mean even in terms of plotting it's easy to try and go okay this week what happens while this happens or they try to do this and then you go then what then what then what oh that's funny it doesn't feel like an ending how do we talk it how do we top it if you can I think it is a good way to go okay how does it how does it start and how does it end or even what's a great middle and how do we get from you know that's the Graham Linen thing which is why you know some of the plots are quite lumpy but they're funny is they go from wouldn't it be funny if this and then this and then this well yes it would you're gonna have to work quite hard to get there but that's all right um but ideally so the novel I'm writing at the moment which looks further away than ever in some ways because I'm learning that murder mystery is all but it's not a mystery but they're actually an awful lot harder to do than one would think um I do know how it ends I do I do know where the treasure is and I'm really happy with it and and I'd be quite surprised if I thought of a better ending so in a way all of the planning that's going up to there I feel optimistic about because I do have an ending but I have also plotted sitcom episodes where you just think is that funny is that funny is that bigger is that better so I think when they're plotting stuff if you can get to the ending first and they're not worried too much about the middle yeah I don't know but you know I mean one of the clues that you have to your ending is that or some of the clues you already have to your ending is the person is back where they started whatever has happened whatever they go through they are back where they were so in the sense you've already got um and again they're not you know Pixar aren't making sitcoms they're making movies where people grow and something happens and we know oh and that's where the treasure was buried or but also being a movie uh you know in the last third absolutely everything was there all along you know what I mean so the plotting I mean Toy Story 2 is for me the perfect movie there is not a single frame that is out of whack the whole thing is absolutely perfect but with every movie Pixar movie pretty much the answer was there all along and it was there in act one and it was there in act two and it's been unlocked and so you know uh having said that the best one of the best movie endings is Casablanca and they came up with that pretty much on the day so um there are there are more than one way to get a cat but you are trusting your luck if you need the ending to go out late I think it's it's true once you do really know what your end is going to be and then when you do start writing it does become easier to plant those uh things that you know that the audience won't see what these are planting but you know that they are actually uh these are things that we're going to come back to and we'll find uh yeah yeah right okay quite often you do come up even if you know your ending you do often come up with a better one um but if you go in without knowing one then you're making your life quite hard but again it depends on whether talking about coming up with outlines or coming up with scripts I wouldn't dream of writing a script unless I had all the scenes planned out and I knew how it was how each scene was going to begin an end or yes I mean I had my ending for my novel um and then I started writing it and I realized actually um that the novel it's too long if I'm gonna go if I'm gonna have that ending I'm gonna have to uh completely rethink everything or it's two novels okay so I um pretty much kind of three quarter the way through writing it I thought the point I'm going I thought this is going to be 200,000 words if I carry one at this right um so in the end it was about 100 and 110,000 and I got it down I've got it down now it's about 85 oh okay um that's a lot of cutting though isn't it that's pain yeah but I mean I know now I've started to work on the second one and I can see how and the ending is definitely I really have the ending that I've had it once before and I've still got it so I mean I've got an ending for it there's a kid's fantasy sort of thing I bit like the wingfathers I mentioned or um narnia or whatever I've got a brilliant ending I've got a brilliant beginning and I've got a brilliant ending and I know that if somebody actually said right right that story here's six months and a pile of money and all the coffee you can drink I know how to write that movie because I know how it ends yeah um but you know no one's no one's office to do that but so I do I do understand the power of an ending and how much confidence that gives you going in yeah so you know in the same way actually you would say when we talk about writing sketches the problem is always the punch line isn't it coming up the decent punch line for a sketch is so hard you would almost advise someone not even to bother starting writing the sketch until they've got the punch line yeah because a string of jokes is not quite enough and won't make your sketch stand out amongst all the other ones and a sketch with a proper punch line on it really will get a lot further won't it yeah and it's quite rare isn't it as well even when you're listening to watching great shows um I mean John Finnemore is a rare example of someone who most of his sketches have a very funny punch line even he sometimes you know in half hour episode yeah maybe maybe a third of the time the punch line is like ah I think you just ended on your best joke that isn't technically a punch line and then there might be a chat about after the pin they've got a brilliant cheat on that where they where after a sketch um you know they have a thing that sounds like an ending and then occasionally they'll talk about the sketch as if it was real um you know and they sort of just go wow I can't believe that guy in that sketch did that I mean what wow he's on a terrible day hasn't it yeah I know it's just you know it's just a real sounding diamond and it's like what I keep talking about is if it's real it was you but if you can um they've made a couple of them I'm sure they've made more now they're making some lockdown sketches okay I've seen a couple very very funny I've not seen those I'm a big I'm very recommend a particular one so come up with your ending with number seven number eight is finish your story let go even if it's not perfect in an ideal world you would have both but move on do better next time wow right I don't think John Lass is going to settle for that is he um is that um does does that mean uh you know press send basically uh but um it's a or I'm not sure if it means you know just get to the end of your first draft and you know it's sort of that sort of information but that sort of thing but it actually that means you know do as much as you can I mean it's true that no script is ever perfect you know you can always improve a script yeah right uh sorry I will die on a hill for toys to do too I think it might be the best movie ever made I have to watch it I mean I've not seen too so I've only seen as far as Toy Story 1 so uh I need to um catch up I'm behind on my Toy Stories um yeah I I think it's got the voice of Kelsey Graham R Dave it's got Frasier in it and there we go I don't know how far into the sitcom we are we just mentioned Frasier for those who are not me not me yes it's not even a say the word no okay but if we just move on to next or maybe this will help number nine is when you're stuck make a list of what wouldn't happen next lots of times the material to get you unstuck will show up that's really good advice isn't it for plot what wouldn't happen next yeah and then you might go see maybe a word yeah yeah you're kind of kidding yourself you're sort of cheating yourself a bit and again this is something I've been seeing quite a lot of in the last week or so um the uh the someone has a really good uh plot twist and in fact it's so good that um that's it's the last scene in the in the script uh and actually over the script I just read recently and I went and I got to the end and I just went wow wow I did not see that coming at all that it's brilliant um and I thought okay so this person either has to um it has to build the whole thing to get to that point or I thought actually this isn't the end this is a brilliant twist and now now that that brilliant twist has happened there are more things that can happen as a result of that so I mean I don't know it's sort of it's it's it you could go either way with that um but but I do I think you know when you think you've got a great idea and you have a brilliant twist to a plot then uh then you do sort of need to have another one really don't you it's like having one thing is not enough you know I do I think I think possibly what I'm saying here is slightly different from what's meant here but I do read too many scripts where there's only one one or two things happen and you need more things to happen than that so yeah so yeah yeah I've often I mean out of the 65 or so scripts we read for the British Comedy Guide uh competition most stories didn't start till page 10 and most stories had basically run out of steam by page 25 and yet the script still went on for another 10 pages um so I think story is something that people find a lot harder than we might think and I think people need to story story story for much longer before they start writing because it's painful to fix it um when you've written jokes that you really like so I would always urge people to absolutely kick their story to death before they start writing it um because it's just pain it's and it's so annoying to get 15 pages into writing a script and realize it doesn't work how to start again um I mean it's better than writing 40 pages and realizing it doesn't work um but that's why I think you know any trick that that might work to kind of get your car stuck in a in the mud and you just want to stop rocking it backwards and forwards to see anything that gets traction that get out of the ditch so what wouldn't happen next sure try that why not yeah and I think and it also makes you think about your character well my character would never do this because and actually then you come back to think well what if they would do that what you know what if in this point they are acting against type um and you know you can do you are able to do that with people because people do occasionally act against type but it might you know think your story and character is separate things is you kind of have to do it when you're planning otherwise your brain explodes but when you're really sort of dug in there if you don't want me saying uh right in the dug into your script and you know you've got to you've got to find some sort of combination of story and character that's uh that works. The Robert McKee story is character you go well yeah I guess so but I don't I wonder at your perspective how how good advice that actually is I think for movies that probably is good advice because I say you're not trying to come up with multiple stories you're only need one story for your character um yeah but then so uh number 10 which we we should wrap up the last two um I think it's referring to other people's stories pull apart the stories you like and then it's a classic pixel what you like in them is a part of you you've got to recognize it before you can use it I don't really know I'm British and I went to a fee-paying school and I'm male I am very unlikely to be able to process something that's been written by a lady who probably lives in California and works with Pixar and is a storyboard artist yeah I on the other hand I'm a sort of third-generation immigrant and uh you know I come from a religion that survives on questioning everything around and uh you know I also and I'm a bit of a wishy washy liberal type and uh you know I think yeah the things that you love they're a part of they are a part of you and uh you know you know I think it's like you set yourself up for a joke though and I understand what that means either that's where I thought you were going with it yeah I could have done actually but I do but you were part because you know yeah because you're the songwriter yeah and I made that particular thought last minutes longer than it should have done as well no I think but I think it's a helpful note and I think we were funny we go back to an episode at least I mentioned it and remember it quite a lot and episode with Carrie Quinlan that we did where we said where the episodes I think called what kind of writer are you and I think knowing what kind of stories you like and what you like the stories you like telling are probably the stories you like watching and it is what I think in you know what are your favorite sitcoms what are your favorite movies what do you like about them because in a way probably what you're trying to do is write them yeah and so it probably is worth kicking the times on those things and just going why do I like them take them apart so I think there is why do I connect with them I think there is something in that yeah I think I think I mentioned this before but one way in which Richard Curtis sort of zoomed up in my estimation I went to see him give a talk it's a few years after Notting Hill had been out and he said that you know they were sitting in the editing suite at Notting Hill they'd written it they'd made it they'd been directing it was and you know it was the years down the line that project and it was coming near to the sort of final edit and he thought oh my god I've just made exactly the same films for weddings in the funeral and then I thought about that and I thought actually and isn't the tall guy also is kind of a little bit like that they you know they're kind of posh English person and the cool American gender is different but yeah and so there's obviously some very deep at some very deep level and I think it's the kind of immigrant thing as well with Richard Curtis you know the kind of wanting to be long you know kind of what's the ultimate place that you can belong to you know well if you're as an English you know how does an English person keep their identity and be kind of still managed to be a person of the world you know so maybe well it's just because I did I did there's 12 episodes of a podcast I did called the Inquisition which is about talking to Christian people and not about Monty Python what am I one of my last questions on that is always essentially you know they some some because say that every sermon is basically the same that every vicar has one sermon and they sort of say the same thing and they apply it to virtually everything doesn't really matter what the Bible says or what what what part of the surgical calendar it is they kind of what and I think almost everybody I've interviewed has just sort of said yeah there's probably an obtrude in that and the bit where my friends or whatever tend to roll their eyes is when I say you know what I think this and like yeah yeah yeah we know so it is worth knowing myself isn't it and therefore knowing the themes that really matter to you and to write to them because I think you know we're talking to the BBC writers and they want to hear voices and the deadline for that was probably passed by the time this goes out but overall people want to read scripts where you know the person telling the story just feels passionate about that story and that does become obvious so you do need to pick themes and kinds of story as well as precincts that you might know about or situations or expertise or relationships or whatever that you understand you do need to address themes that you care about so I think that is really insightful and we just got time for the number 11 we have yes I might turn my video off at some point because my internet connection might be getting a little bit dodgy so you might lose my picture in a second okay yeah but we're up to number 11 yes so putting it's on paper lets you start fixing it if it stays in your head a perfect idea you'll never share it with anyone yeah I think that's a very good point I think a lot of people are scared of writing or telling the idea a lot of people when they're starting out I'm scared to tell you my idea because you'll nick it or someone else will do it and it's such a great idea I mean yeah if I'm a stereotype maybe that men might think my idea is so brilliant you'll nick it and women might be more tempted to think you might just think it's crap yeah I don't know whether you know send us an email sitcomgeeks.gmail.com if that is a sexist generalization but I suspect given the number of male and female writers that I know and how they talk about their craft that there is something in it but definitely yeah so I think I write stuff down partly the very act of writing it down if I've had an idea means I don't have to look at it again because I've remembered it yeah but I do have and I have Apple Notes the yellow notes thing I just put in random ideas I do have a notebook and I write in it all the time and I write in it at least once a month because I like to do it once a monthly review of the previous month and looking to what I'm going to do next month but in between times things go in there ideas and whatever and you know I do go back and read them and think oh right yeah and I had completely forgotten that I had had that idea so it is worth doing it get the stuff down there and go back and look at it well for example this is this murder mystery idea that I've been working on today I remember having the idea several years ago and actually this the show that I'm trying to get it on is a really good vehicle for it it's actually perfect for it and I'm really excited but it probably wouldn't have worked in other formats or for other things or and so I just wrote it down and thought about it and that was it and then I was reminded of it when I was pitching actually by my daughter said something that just triggered oh I did have an idea about related to this and it's this and I should take a bit of that that's a brilliant idea and I just spent literally I was up at 6 this morning just sort of finishing it off and I hope she's going to get a big chunk of the commission if you think mine's also going to be fine out of me over the course of her life right excellent that brand new bike didn't pay for itself let me tell you it was one of those nice isle bikes as well I can tell you oh can't go wrong with an isle bike no they retain their value as well so you can sell they do they go yeah because they grow out of them but then you know off they go yeah so that is number one two eleven and next time we will talk about 12 22 22 that was fine wasn't it yep okay thanks very much for listening everybody people can contact us at www.cconquix.com we're on facebook we're on twitter your website Dave is Davecoan.org.uk I was in the process of getting a brand new website and the bloody virus thing or something came along and now it's on hold but it will be happening and also I work for the the Writers Guild the Comedy Committee if you've got any sort of problems or issues that have come as a result of the virus or whatever my i'm on twitter Davecoan comedy my my direct message is er open if you've got anything you want to discuss in confidence with me you can find me there Brilliant cool and yeah and they're also on patreon so also if you have writing based things if you join us on patreon for as little as a dollar a month or something yeah then there is a private facebook group and people just put stuff on there and they ask questions about stuff and Dave and I look at that facebook group pretty much every day and the patreon page as well i'm putting up content there is hours and hours of extra audio to help you while away these times of lockdown people are listening to podcast less and i think it's because it's quite so much reactivity and we tend to be with people and listening to podcast but we're going through we're carrying on we're centering on great okay thank you for listening everybody thank you bye