Episode 1540 - Daniel Stern

Am I, most have occupation, or it will come to mischief? Jay Nostin's Emma, adapted by Kate Hamill and directed by Clara Riley, is at the Abbey Theatre until the 25th of January. There'll be Gossel, Dancing and Scandal's Galore as this classic comedy comes to life in a whole new way. Get your Emma tickets from 15 Euro at Abbey Theatre.ie on sale now, funded by the Arts Council.

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Finance is made under a higher purchase agreement to tease and see supply. MFS, subject to lending criteria, offers are limited, see Renault-Dottai. Alright, let's do this. How are you?

What the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fuck next? How's it going?

So much is happening all the time. Not necessarily right in my immediate environment, but everywhere else there are things happening. Daniel Stern is on the show today. Now Daniel Stern, I don't know what age you are or who you are, but you know him.

Obviously everyone knows him from Home Alone, the Wonder Years, City Swickers. But for me, because of my age, I think it was diner and breaking away. Diner was a very important movie to me. I can't even fully explain why.

Maybe it was the year it came out, maybe it was just it resonated with me, but diner just fucking blew my mind. I can't even explain it. Maybe it was the camaraderie, the guy's, the humor, the acting. I mean it was early Mickey Rourke.

Paul Reiser was like a kid, Kevin Bacon, Gutenberg, Ellen Barkin. But it was Levinson's film, but it really had an impact on me. And I'll talk about that in a second. I think what's more important to address is I got to go to Vancouver today for the first little chunk.

I'm going to go back and forth quite a bit for this acting job. And last night, or Saturday night, massive panic attack. I can't even remember the last time I had the panic overflow like that. I mean, look, there's always a little bit of panic, but I live with it and I've adjusted to it.

I mean, I'm not going to be a part of the frequency I exist on. I think maybe I don't give myself enough credit. I don't know. But I do know when I can't sleep and I do know when my brain fucking just goes, I mean, it was just full when it was on fire.

It was like one of these things where, okay, I'm trying to sleep fine. Cats are being a little crazy, fine, kids over. But, you know, I just couldn't, it was almost like cocaine sleep. My heart was pounding.

You know, I was driving her crazy. She went and swept in the other room. I had to lock the cats out. And I was just like tossing and turning like that kind of thing where you're kind of trying to level off your heart rate.

You're trying to find some sort of portal to sleep. It's weird when you can't sleep. And usually I've noticed that when you are falling asleep, your brain kind of picks a thing that it kind of goes off on. Like something outside of you.

You know, kind of, I don't know. You start with thinking about something and then all of a sudden, you know, it becomes a dream zone. And you're sleeping. The next thing, you know, couldn't fucking lock on anything.

Anything I was trying to walk on to distract myself of doing a serenity prayer over and over again, which is something I learned many years ago, just kind of like a counting sheet business. I did some sort of positive affirmation business. But man, it was like altered states. The movie.

My bed became this isolation tank and I was in this meditative zone, but it wasn't really, it was that zone where you're not sleeping, but your brain's not doing anything. So you're just kind of like moving through some murky kind of a galactic world of shapes and colors. And you're kind of like, you know, making of anyway, I do. I'm just sort of like, is that a face?

What is that? Is that like, you know, where am I? But there's movement, but you're so it's so self-conscious that there's no way you're going to get to sleep in that. You're just trying to fool your brain that you're asleep.

And then it just started to go, man. And then all the stuff started to come up. It was like, it was like altered states, but I didn't make it all the way back to monkey. I didn't make it all the way back to primal man.

I made it back to like maybe an eight year old me and just the amount of discomfort and awkwardness that I felt all the way until that night. It was just like, it was like not a roodex. It was like a montage of embarrassing traumatic moments, you know, of me trying to kind of put together enough armor to get through the fucking war. And then at the end of it, you know, after I go through all these fucking memories, then I'm just sort of like this raw blob of self.

And I'm kind of like, I can't do anything. I'm just, it's all a fake. I'm really like, I don't think I'm older than 10. I'm scared to go.

I'm scared. I'm going to suck. I'm scared. I don't know how to do this anymore.

I don't think I ever knew how to do it. This acting business or anything. And I just stripped it all down. And then I, you know, I kind of ran around not as primal man, not violent, just as a panicky scared on the verge of tears, like eight year old.

Not great to be back there. Not something I wanted to revisit. But that's where I went. And then somehow or another, like I knew, like I've been through this stuff before.

I've been through this stuff on drugs. You know, where you can't sleep. I've been through it like just naturally, same too much caffeine or whatever. But this was really just pure panic and fear of the work of the responsibility of what I had to do.

Am I good enough? Am I fraud? Do I really not to do this? Do I know this character enough?

Is it going to be okay? It's going to be like, Oh my God. Just, you know, on the edge of tears, eight year old Mark sitting in his room in his grown ass man body, mad at his cats, mad he can't sleep, but also just tweak the fuck out. Full on.

My breathing didn't get bad. Like I didn't hyperventilate or anything. I was able to maintain and lower my heart rate. According to my whoop app, which I no longer have any faith in, I got a good night's sleep.

Yeah, that's over for me in the whoop app. Because it was not a good night's sleep. Maybe I got into some meditative state, but I finally found some sort of narrative that got me into sleep. And I'm trying to remember what it was.

And I really think it was like filling up wheelbarrows and buckets with dirt and then just emptying them. I don't know where that came from or why, but none of the other narratives were working. There was no thing I could think about that wasn't going to cause me more panic. What an ordeal.

One night. I'm in Vancouver on Friday, June 21st at the Vogue Theatre. I'll then I'm in Seattle on Saturday, June 22nd at the Moore Theatre. In the fall, I'm coming to Tucson Phoenix, Oklahoma City, Dallas, Houston, San Antonio, Boulder, Colorado, Juliet, Illinois, Skokie, Illinois, Grand Rapids, Michigan, Sacramento, Napa, California.

This is all assuming that the country will be intact. Look, if I cancel because of state borders or civil war type skirmishes, if I cancel again, I think well I understand. To get all my dates, including the ones from the summer that I need to reschedule, go to wtfpod.com.com. Daniel Stern is here.

Now, it's a weird thing when you build a relationship with an actor because, you know, Home Alone was a little old for it. But because of Diner and because of Breaking Away, you know, those guys who were in both of those movies, they're kind of wired into me, man. I mean, they're definitely wired into my emotional being. It was in 1982 that came out.

I don't know what date it would have been in 1982. I don't know. So I was just at high school at my freshman year of college. But it just kind of blew my mind.

And that was, you know, after seeing Paul Reiser and that, I thought he was the funniest guy in the world, which is kind of wild. And that's when I went to, it was just before that, I'd seen Paul Reiser in Diner and I went to the comic strip from college, you know, to go see some comedy. And he was just sitting there by himself. That was that moment where I was like, I love Diner.

I'm going to talk to him. I said, I want to do comedy. And he's like, and I said, how do I do it? He's like, I don't know.

He just got to do it. So, yeah, I don't know if I would have said that to a young comic, but you can't say much else. But, and I can't say that like, well, that's the thing that turned me. Thanks to Paul Reiser's words of wisdom.

I'm now a comedian, but I do remember being thoroughly impressed with his timing and his humor in that movie. And I, so when Daniel Stern became, you know, an opportunity to talk to, I was like, of course. And now he's like this guy, you know, he's like this, you know, he's like a, he's not that old, but he's had quite a life. And he's been in a lot of things.

He is 66 years old. Only six years older than me. That's crazy. That is the other thing that's, you know, at the core of a lot of this sort of anxiety is like this acknowledgement and realization that like all of a sudden I'm older than everybody.

I mean, that's what happens at 60 because I think, you know, between like 40 and 60, you're all kind of in the same world, the same community, like comics and everybody you know. And then it's like when you hit 60 and all of a sudden you're seeing people's age, you're like, what? How are you that much younger than me? Or what?

You're only six years older than me? That's fucking crazy. I remember seeing you when I was a kid, but I really wasn't. Time's getting weird, man.

That's all. But all right. I hope you're all right. Are you all right?

Is everything good? A lot of good conversations coming up. We've got a lot of good talks in the can. And this one with Daniel was really kind of beautiful.

It was great because there's certain personalities and I find this all the way through doing the show that some of the assumptions I make about people based on their work are not wrong. And when you feel like you know somebody, you probably know a bit of them if they're out there in public doing things. You probably know enough of them to connect with them. And that usually turns out to be true.

It's a rare thing where someone comes up here and I'm like, I kind of know this guy from the thing. And I'm like, oh my God. This guy is completely different than I thought. He was not, but he was a lot more.

Good guy. Reflective has that kind of a kind of a great life, which is nice. It's nice. Enjoy this.

His book, Home and Alone comes out tomorrow May 21st. You can get wherever you get books. Great guy. Thank you.

So do you. You must be like what? Traveling all the fucking people. Yeah, I just got back.

Yeah. I, you know, when I'm touring, I do travel in this. And as I get older, it's, you know, it's something I tend to I don't know if I complain about it. But I'm surprised that, you know, like I just did Madison Milwaukee, Chicago and Minneapolis in a row.

Yeah, he's right. But you know, I don't know man. I think like, well, it's just I'm not really doing that much during the day. How tired could you get?

But you get tired. Yeah, and the travel and that's why I don't do anything anymore. Just because I long if you not done anything, Daniel. Are we on?

Sure. Okay. I wonder if I not done anything. I've tried to do nothing for about 25 years, 20 years.

I tried. I really tried to hit a point where I realized I made enough money that I could. Yeah, not. Yeah, not hustle.

Right. And made myself kind of stop. Yeah. Well, I mean, that's sort of my dream.

And I think I'm there. But I mean, I don't like, I don't have a family. Right. And, you know, and I got all your music here.

I mean, music, I got cats. I got friends and stuff. But there does, you know, if you're brought up, I think with a certain mindset where you're like, aren't we working towards stopping? Right.

But then like what is stopping me? Like, because I'm self-employed. I mean, you did a lot of acting and that's different because you're in a trailer half the day. You know, when you're doing that whole thing.

But me, you know, I do stand up. I do this. And it's when you're self-employed, it all feels like nothing. Right.

Exactly. But acting is a little different because you know, that's the thing. I was wasting so much fricking time on it. I can't imagine.

Just trailer time alone. You get trailer in hotel. Right. And it's like, you don't, it's not that you, you could be changing the world necessarily, but you could certainly be doing something else.

Yeah. Yeah. And I had little kids, you know, at the time. And I'm like, that's the thing.

And then I'm like on the phone with them, trying to like, how's it going? Fine. Right. There was no FaceTime, no Zoom.

No. And they were boring as shit on the phone. And I, you know, and I was like, what did you do today? Well, I said my lines.

Yeah. Yeah. Was it exciting? Yeah.

But it actually opened up, you know, making myself stop. Yeah. Made me find other things to do and other passions and other ways of spending my time that I just couldn't even conceive. Cause I've always been work oriented.

You know, I mean, like have to be productive. Well, would you grow up? I grew up in Maryland, in Bethesda, Maryland. Really?

Yeah. And what, what's your family? My dad's a social worker. Was a social worker.

My mom, it was a teacher. Wow. That's like the noble. Yes.

Exactly. Civic responsibility jobs. Exactly. And I was like, what, you know, what, why are you so when my mother, it was, it was wonderful when my mother first saw it.

I was a shy kid and then I ended up in a play. Yeah. Yeah. My mother said, what, that was so sad to see you up there that you need to get up in front of people like this and show off what, what is that about?

Really? And the whole show is, you know, it was my sister as a lawyer, you know, like a labor lawyer. I was, she was moving towards that, but it was what's the H difference between us two between two between her and me and then older. Yeah.

And then my brother's six years, little earlier than that. Oh, that's a big one. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So she couldn't, she thought you, uh, it wasn't humble. Yeah. And the whole thing didn't have a, did you tell her like maybe if you guys had loved me more?

That's what she said. I said, it's not bad. It's because David Rosenthal's getting all the fucking girls and David Rosenthal. That guy.

What happened to David Rosenthal? David has a good voice over career. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

So he stayed in the game from, from high school. Oh, he was he was out here. Yeah. I think he was up in San Francisco working in that video world.

Oh, you remain friends with him. I do. Well, that's great. Yeah.

I don't even know him since second grade, third grade, fourth grade, what? Fifth. Isn't that crazy? It's weird because I have a friend from Hebrew school and he's my oldest friend.

And you know, I don't talk to him all the time, but I see him more lately because I go back to New Mexico where I grew up. But there is that bond built among Jews that Hebrew school thing is right a passage. Sure. Yeah.

I mean, it's a, it's a different, it's like a, like a, I don't want to say secret society. I don't want to feed the machine. But there is something about it. About the Jewish kids.

Well, so yeah, like, I'm not. Was there a lot of Jews in New Mexico? Yeah. Many got, got out there.

They ran away from these coasts. Yeah. I mean, it wasn't huge, but I mean, there's, right now when I was growing up, there was a conservative temple. There was a reform temple and I think there's a kabod there now.

But there everywhere. Yeah, there's a kabod here in Glendale and I'm like, who's going there? I just drive by it. When I go hiking, it's just, it never looks like there's anyone in the parking lot and there's a security guard out from exactly.

I don't know what. My, my dad used to go pester the kabod in New Mexico. It's not better to do. He just go out there and like argue with the rabbit for no reason.

Exactly. But anyway, so yeah. So, all right. So you're there.

You do your play. You're a shy kid because I believe it or not. But we'll get there. Like, I was a big fan, big fan of you.

I felt like diner somehow changed my life. You know, it's kind of interesting. But so you're now your parents, they're politically active people or what do they do? Yeah, pretty, you know, like, that was the thing with the Jewish thing.

It was, it was, it was DC, you know, outside DC in the 60s. Okay. So the, so the kids who were teaching Hebrew school, college kids, active, go and go on a piece, March and make an understanding, the relevancy of what that Jewish thing was about. But you remember Nixon and whatnot?

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I was delivering the Washington Post through the whole. So I got to read the Bernstein Woodward and Bernstein stuff.

Oh, in real time. At four o'clock in the morning. And you were reading that. How old were you?

You were interested in that? You were brought up to be interested in that. Yeah. Well, it was DC.

You know, it was like, I was a little hippie. My hair was down to the middle of my back. Right. Right.

You know, it was the 60s. That was what I wanted to be. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, I'm, you're six years older than me. So I caught the, the crashing wave of it. Right. And I was late too, too.

You know, I mean, the kids like the kids. Yeah. The kids like the kids. Yeah.

So the, I didn't, you know, I was before the draft, but the kids older than us were getting drafted. So you knew kids in the neighborhood who went or, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So, but that's a heavy time. That's a heavy time to be pre-teen teen. It was a lot of shick going on.

It was a wonderful time, you know, music, righteousness and the comedy. Oh, yeah. The comedy that was starting to, you know, you're level up. You gravitated towards it.

I loved it. I mean, just as a, not, there was no conception of show business. Sure. I think just like, I love to laugh at everything from, you know, get smart.

Yeah. Smarts brothers, brothers, brothers. I mean, it was all providing music. Yeah.

You know, George Carlin was coming out. Robert Klein and Robert Klein, child of the 50s. Big record. I probably have it memorized.

Oh, really? He was your guy. All of them. Yeah.

The albums were, you know, Bill Cosby albums. Yeah. And the, you know, I mean, that was, you just laid them over and over. Little late for Lenny Bruce, probably.

A little bit. A little bit. Yeah. A little too.

I mean, yeah. Yeah. He was too intellectual. Right.

Right. Right. Like you remember Jonathan Winters and that kind of stuff? On the floor with Jonathan Winters.

Yeah. Sure. You guys had all the records at home? Yeah.

Yeah. And, you know, and Dick Van Dyke and I mean, you live by Dick Van Dyke? I used to live by Dick Van Dyke. Oh, you don't live out there anymore?

In Malibu. Yeah. I don't live there anymore. No.

No. You still in on the West Coast? Yeah. I live out towards Ventura.

Okay. So I got out of, like, once I started back in way, there was a money saving thing or no. No. It was a fire thing.

No. It was a people thing. I did Malibu. Malibu.

Beautiful place to raise the kids when we first got it. But as it developed into what Malibu is now and the mansions going up. Oh, yeah. The thing where there was still kind of a little roll.

Yeah. Funky. Yeah. It was beautiful.

Dylan was still out there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And just, you know, I was just small town. Yeah. It was a real actual small town. Right.

Right. That I could raise the kids. They rode their bike to school. Yeah.

You know, I coached the baseball team. You did all the regular stuff. Yeah. And, but it's just sort of, you know, I was there 25 years or something and it kind of changed.

And it, you know, a lot of great things happen there. But I guess got claustrophobic. Oh, interesting. Yeah.

I don't like it. Yeah. So you're riding on your bike delivering papers? I was walking.

I had a baby. The guy who gave me the paper route gave me a baby carriage that I carried the papers. I had the baby carriage and the double front and the back. Right?

People need you. So are you coming? No. It was four o'clock in the friggin' morning.

And you're throwing papers on porch. No. You got to put them in the door. Oh.

It's the Washington Post. You're still mad about it. You know, I was writing this book thing, you know, and had to like go into it. I realized like, yeah, that was like terrible.

I was in the child labor force market there because I was making, you know, and then I had to pay for the paper. Yeah. But that's one of those jobs where you learn the importance of work. I can't imagine your parents were like, you're not getting any money.

Right. You got to go out there and do this. Right. They do that.

Yeah. Yes. That was it. Go learn how to be part of the proletariat.

Make money. Make your own way. Social work's interesting though. So your man was a, he never got into a private practice, a therapy practice.

No, no. He was. Yeah. He was more.

He was like, you know, he was like, you know, he was like, you know, he was like, you know, you know, you know, you know, he was like, you know, he was like, you know like a assistant secretary at HEW. So he was a health education welfare. It turned into health and human services. Okay.

Yeah. I think they were claiming it or something. But he was developing, you know, he was called to service by John Kennedy. Okay.

And moved us there and was developing programs to for juvenile delinquency. Okay. So he was kind of, I mean, he started a Jewish community centers as a organizer and then sort of went into the government part of it. Okay.

He wasn't, it wasn't the social work of the therapy kind of thing. Yeah. Oh, it was more developmental policy and social justice. Oh, that's interesting.

Yeah. That's it. And where did they come from originally? From Philly?

Yeah. Philly Jews. Yeah. Philly Jews.

That's heavy. You got people there still? Probably. You know, my grandparents, I mean my grandparents, they're all gone.

Your folks gone to my dad passed my mom with us. She lives in our guest house. Oh, that's nice. Yeah, I live with my mother who would have thought it it all comes full circle buddy Do you have your parents around but they're not I'm not moving them in I think for the kids it's good right, you know the kids are my kids are gone.

My son is turning 42. That's crazy. Isn't it? Yeah?

Frigging to yeah, so he's like this grown-ass old man. He really is you know, so I'm a grandpa like six times Wow Yeah, so it's it's it's it's yeah Yeah, it's a different life. So all right. So after the play so like what makes you decide to commit to the acting racket?

You know, I I really I had no other option. I mean I I dropped out of high school I couldn't read I was a dyslexic kid. I you didn't know that or what no I knew it I just I I was a I was a good artist, you know I did painting and sculpture as a kid and I did the plays and I didn't acquire and everything like that so you're a guy completely Yeah, and sports and yeah, and so yeah I wasn't gonna get into college and I had gotten after I did a little play then I got the lead parts into plays You know and like got an identity that way and stumbled into a crazy just apprenticeship one summer the after You know when I was 17 Yeah, where I got the New York actors and I had a little part in the play and they they said you should move up to New York And I said okay, and now you're 18 now 17 when I went up Yeah, and your parents were like, okay Yeah, cuz they just want you to do what you wanted to do no they wanted me to get out of the house Oh, they just said when you're 18 Yeah, we know you're not going to college, but one way or the other you're not living here really but were they supportive of your of your No, not particularly. I mean not unsupport.

Just you know, I've been bred to be an independent person my whole life so they They and I appreciate that you know, yeah, but they yeah, they said go go do your thing So what was the experience in New York at that time? What are we talking like nine seventy five? All right, so you know second generation method people first generation acting teachers were still there and yeah, I I was not like Doing that I took class with a great teacher Austin Pendleton. I mean, I've you know, but you know, but then Austin go a good job What was the school HB students?

Yeah? Yeah, it was great. Yeah, but then Austin Gave me a part in a play he was directing and was like all right Well, I don't need acting class anymore because I wasn't like I couldn't I still can't read a Shakespeare player Yeah, I'm not a classic Classically trained actor and I don't have that passion for the literature of it I enjoy the storytelling part of it. Yeah, you know, I was good at that I was I could emote my feelings or be you know, whatever, but I wasn't gonna be like a Yale train sure sure so I got a gig right out of the acting class I guess they needed kids I guess it was sort of a benefit to be a kid that had some sort of natural chops, right?

Because I'd worked for absolutely nothing and do a lot, you know, right on the plays I was not remember the play Benito Sereno, I played the soldier. Yeah, I sir. Yeah, you know, but it was it was you remember the actor Roscoe Lee Brown Yeah, so Roscoe was in it and you know, and he's one of those guys that talk like this right beautiful I mean, right so well trained in that voice. Yeah, and when he my mom came and saw the play and like Roscoe told her I was a good actor and was like, okay.

Oh, yeah, I got a stamp of approval. That's helpful funny Yeah, and yeah, just kind of so you're kicking on the theater scene in New York. Yeah, yeah about 12 years really So like who was around? I mean do you have contemporaries that are still in the racket?

Oh, yeah John heard was I mean heard took me in when I first the first day I got there his John heard. Yeah, he's intense He was he was he's gone. Yeah, Christopher curry Bruce McGill John Goodman was in the crowd. Yeah.

Yeah, just a bunch of theater rats You were roommates with John heard. Yeah, wow. Yeah, John. I mean, I slept on the sofa They were they had their apartment were they older than you or no?

Oh, yeah, John's was 15 years old. I was the puppy because he was kind of hardcore, wasn't he? Yeah, so fucking fun Oh, I got to run with the big boys. Who did I talk to it?

Was he married? Was he married to Melissa Leo at some point? Yes? Yeah, and Margot Kitter Wow for about a week Wow Margot Okay, these are intense women and that's a diplomatic word.

Yeah. Yeah, John John was just a gym I love him and miss him. Yeah, you know, no, it was a wonderful friggin time. It was New York was a little dangerous.

Are you there when he got cutters way? Yeah, man. Yeah, what a fucking movie Well, he was the first guy in the crowd to get in a movie. So like you know everybody was it that movie?

No, it was between the lines. Okay, and then chili seems a winner He got a couple of Joan Mac and silver films like these small films Yeah, and kept moving up but John was you know, John had a little money in his pocket He bought us all food. Oh, yeah things like that, but it was also watching I had no idea about even being in a movie. Right.

That was that was you're just not gonna do plays exactly I'm gonna be an actor and I and you're doing a lot of plays. Yeah. Yeah, I did a lot I mean like off-Broadway stuff. Yeah, a couple of weird ones and then I got I got into one of the first things they did at Manhattan Theatre Club and then I did I replaced Malkovich in the true West there was a legendary production when John sort of hit the you know, dude I saw you in true West, but I felt like that was after some movies.

I'd done a few movies by then. Yeah, so like I saw me in true I did really I but you know I went and looked it up Because I remembered yesterday because I knew I was gonna talk to you and I knew I you know I had a very sort of in my mind personal relationship with with at least a couple of the guys in diner in my mind Oh, oh, and you know, I'd seem breaking away And I think those were the two that were out and then I must have been I must have been in my first year of college or something I don't know I'd gone to New York to see you in true West Oh, but when I looked it up it said that Tim Mathis and played opposite of you But I don't think he was there tonight that I saw tonight. I saw you I didn't know the guy who was one of the first the originator of the role, right? Well Gary Sunnis originated the role so I did it with Gary for a while Yeah, and then Tim was gonna come in but he got a job or something So I did it with Jerry Burns the understudy for about and we had a fucking blast I must have been who I saw you with and then Cherry Lane And Jerry Lane and Jerry and I were like wild animals by the you know I mean he was so fun then Tim came in and I was already like I've been in the play like three months and Tim finally got out of his movie and came to the show and He joined the play and I he's like you're beating me up way too much like you're hurting me and I said you know I'm sorry like that's two days later I showed up to the play and there was two security guards there Yeah, and I'd been fired and so I really did the play with Tim like four times But then Tim didn't want me doing the play because I was and he you know And I was probably out of control But I thought he wore it as a badge of honor that they had security people because your your lead was too tough I was I was a I was a tough mother of a guy.

Yeah. Well, I mean now such a great park Did you see it with Malkovich? Yeah, yeah, I can't imagine that I mean it must have been amazing You know when I went when they called me and said I I they'd asked me to be in the play Yeah, I went to the first day of rehearsal. I thought I was playing the other part with that Austin Yeah, cuz I thought well, I'm not gonna play that part.

Yeah, I thought I'm gonna be the intellectual brother You know the writer and sure enough like I was playing that part. What a mind fuck that one I mean, that's why I think I want to see you I was like after watching breaking away and and I think diner was out and it must have been that same year probably Yeah, I was like how's this guy gonna do that? I wonder the same thing. I remember you did a great job Well, thank you.

I mean because like, you know, however Anybody's gonna interpret Lee as you know either a real guy or not a real guy or what it means to to be out there on the edge Right and then come in to kind of blow your brother's world up exactly, you know I because I always thought of you as a slightly goofy. You know, I yeah, it it really Was one of the first parts I it changed me as an actor. Oh to understand how to Live inside a character like that So we also did address it to to access that anger that anger and the humor yeah like it was rip roaring fucking laughs and that thing It's like you can get laughed that way. That was a whole different way than the humble shy kid I was playing right away You know it's like a whole different gear and really really just was so thrilling and yeah, just expand expanding for my own self Yeah, yeah sure.

I mean and also your skillset, right? Yeah, but like the thing I remember about that play though that I thought was so mind-blowing in my early sort of intellectual sort of aspirations was that you know when you do the toast the entire theater smells like toast, you know, and it was just Other element that was you know sensory exactly and it changes the way, you know, you think you know It's absolutely a hundred percent mark, you know, and acting in it like not only I drank a six pack of beer every show two shows on Friday and Saturday I'll see your shift face by the second show. No, no, it was just pumping through me I you know, I could drink a whole six pack of beer Yeah, and not feel it and because I was in the it was that sensory yeah the realities of those things were completely different theater So intimate, you know, right? It was a big deal, man But that was after so like how so you're just kicking around New York How do you get breaking away because you know as this you know, I mean you're you know a kind of a awkward Jewish kid from the East Coast You're gonna play this, you know, Indiana townie.

I mean, how did that happen it? Peter Yates was the director. Yeah, and just I had done a play that I got an agent one of the people who lived in herds building What was the play that you got the almost men? Okay down at HB?

Yeah, I met my wife in that Yeah, yeah, and then I got an agent and she sent me out so I'd had like two auditions for a movie Yeah, and I went to that audition, but it turned out like Peter didn't even audition me I sat with Peter while Peter talked on the telephone and I see him Yeah, and then he handed I was like terrified because I didn't have an audition piece So I thought I was gonna have to do cold reading. Yeah, yeah, and there was nothing you have to do I'm like I was just panicked. Yeah, anyway, Peter hands me the script He says come back next week and so I went back the next week and it turned out It was a read-through of the film Yeah in the conference room with all the actors around the whole table reading the thing. Yeah, and he said all right great We'll see you in LA and I was in the movie so there was I have no it was like one of those touched by God moments like right How did that happen?

I don't know how it happened? Well? Well, so how do you prepare like if you do have that much trouble reading was it just take you longer Like when you take a script home. Yeah, you just have to really sit with it and figure it out Yeah, but once I you know once if I get a chance to memorize it I can act it that the fear is you hand it to me right now And I go read it with you know, I learned to read actually doing the wonder years I was all voice over and I had to read it.

They give me a new script and like I totally overcame that You know in the room they'd say here's a rewrite and like suddenly I'm cold reading and also like but also with a voice over It's not you can read it over and over exactly so the pressure was off Yeah, and I really got my reading skills so I could do actually anything you want well That's what I talked to the Mark Ruffalo recently and he's got that an issue with it And and I think that because it's so deliberate to process just the reading it probably goes in deeper quicker Maybe well you have to think about it. I really exactly you got a yeah You go back is like did I understand that right keep going back when I read it interesting It's like it might be one of the few jobs where dyslexia. That's it for actually gives you the time right to process the story Right with a different pace. That's why I never thought of it.

That's why I'm so good god damn it. We figured it out So you're out there in Indiana with with quaid and yeah Jack your old and That guy Dennis Christopher who I didn't see much of after that but that must have been kind of intense I mean just I mean because you know quaid was he's sort of a he's his own thing man It's always sort of his own thing. I guess but you're all kind of kids right we were all kids You know Jackie was the movie star Jackie had done bad news bears So that again, I've never been in a movie. I'd never auditioned for a movie I never thought about being in a movie I had an agent for two weeks like a bad kid He was yes So like I saw like we go on the street and people would ask Jackie for his honor Oh, yeah, and he was such a wonderful humble dude What yeah, and he was like out out of it for a long time and he kind of researched a few years ago That's wrong.

What was it little children heavy role right? He's such a good actor He's so good and interesting presence I think he had a lot you know, he went and had a life in Texas for a while or think I think that's right They found him they don't know for I don't remember what the story is I remember him. Yeah, he was like doing real life Kind of see yeah, but he but when you worked with him. He was like the guy yeah Well, I mean he was again humble as hell Dennis was already preening.

Yeah, I mean sure and cut Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean I loved I loved I loved it his first role No, he'd done because his brother was at it before him. Yeah, his brother Randy was in last picture show right you know Dennis was that was Dennis was living under that yeah shadow a little bit Yeah, one he stepped up himself in that role well he turned in like you know Dennis it turned into a very proficient and and you know kind of he's a good actor Yeah, he can kind of do anything, you know He was like he's one of those guys. It's like almost movie star but not movie star enough to worry. It's gonna stop him right?

You know so he could still we gotta vote anybody consider you know, and he should he's a you know He I think he played Ronald Reagan. I mean he he he he can invest himself in a character He doesn't just I love movie stars who don't do anything to I mean Harrison Ford or yeah guys like that they just stand there and be Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, well he was like there's that one Jesus man like later. Quaid is really the best way for me that little movie He did with Toford Grace where he plays his boss. It's kind of a great movie in good company is what it's called Okay, and it's kind of a sweet little movie He you know Toford Grace gets hired to be basically you know He's I think Quaid works at some sort of sporting goods Corporation and Toford Grace is brought in as the new hot young kid Oh, and kind of becomes his boss, but he doesn't know how to be a boss or a person So you know quades character has to find the humility to instead be instead of being threatened to kind of mentor this kid It was it was a sweet excuse me.

He picks really good movies actually Dennis is a super super talented So and so you go right from breaking away to diner? No, I went from breaking away to a few really shitty tiny little parts because like the movie didn't come out for a year So I was starting over. Yeah starting over. I did big comedy ladies in that small.

Yeah, you know Clayberg I did three movies with you and it's great. Yeah, she's great. Love her. She was great.

Your daughter's great. Oh, yeah Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's David Raven.

That's right. She's the daughter. Right. She's great.

She's tremendous and you know David Great, that's heavy. Do you ever do a early early? I never did. I got to meet David a few times But yeah, super talented.

Okay, so you do that small circle friends. Yeah, did small circle friends did a bit part in the stardest memories Yes, so I've got these like little parts. What are you stardest memories? Stardest memories.

I believe I was an a young actor. Oh, yes, that's right. That's right. What are you all in it?

Right where that hotel was right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean I only saw it that one time That's right. You know, you're running around pestering him but the beauty I mean he was my absolute idol And so the fact that I got to he picked me to be in his movie Yeah, I went in for the audition and had him for a second and but then I yeah because I remember I brought a picture of me as Tevia And he let me because I played devia in high school and then so he let me improvise that he thought that was really funny Yeah, then he called me back for a second day of shooting which was really like what he has Was the earlier version of Woody Allen. Yes.

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah funny. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I loved him when he was funny Yeah, sure but uh and then like I I one then diner.

Yeah, diner. I'm gonna trick pony to yeah Paul Simon. Yeah, I know Yeah, so we were moving like it was sort of an autobiographical movie about yeah, and I don't remember I remember Paul's his acting was okay Yeah, but he's Paul Simon. Yeah, it was all about the music and he never won there really acted yet But I mean those are my two idols.

What do you Alan and Paul Simon? Yeah, and there I was in the course of a year I'd accomplished everything I set out to do as an actor because I got to you know I hung out with Paul Simon and his brother Eddie for that night shooting and I played a Had either guitar teacher. Yeah, oh, yeah, exactly. I just remember when I lived in New York that you know he would have ads ads on the radio Simon's brother Exactly.

So yeah, I got to spend the night You know filming with Paul Simon and hanging out the trailer and it was like yeah, I was playing a harry cretina Okay at the airport. Okay, but I like I had a bald wig and then a bad wig on top of that And so I spent the whole night I realized when I got back to the trailer and left after work like I just met my idol And I looked like a fucking idiot in a bad wig and a ball wig and it's like and I'm hanging with Paul and Eddie and I'm like oh, that's what I look You know, they got a great story about that Ron, you know, he's the you know, Ron from a big dude for all men Yeah, yeah, he was on that island of dr. Mero and you know and Brando isn't that and and Perlman's in that goat head He's got this goat head out and he's like he wants all he wants to do is impress brand-new Standing there with this goat head on and he It's too funny, man. That's it man, you know, but you never know how you're gonna meet your idols But so you think like a bunch of little parts before diner.

Yeah, you know, I had to I had been like quitting yeah No, I was making you know, I was my you're I was at zero Are you already American away? No, we were living together. Yeah, yeah in New York. Yeah, and then I got upper west Okay, but yeah, I made like eight thousand dollars on breaking away and I was suddenly like oh we're in it I mean $400 on that and $500 on that and then breaking I mean then diner came along and I you know I made 30 grand Yes, like shit.

I'm winning completely so but diner was a unique movie like it really somehow or another really connected Yeah, Mickey Rourke, you know, a bacon Gutenberg bacon bacon come you've traveled far Money's in the manger, but but like it it really landed with me. I maybe because I'm Jewish I don't know yeah, but I was so entertained by Paul Reiser Paul was the Paul was the secret sauce of that whole thing because the interesting thing with Barry in that one was he he was ready to throw the Script out and we just improvised I mean we spent yeah, and we started improvising Yeah, the first time we met and then we spent a month in the diner just bullshitting every you know a night shoot a month of night shoots Yeah, and we all had parts Roger didn't really have a part in the movie But Roger was a stand-up comic right and funny as shit and everybody had to keep up with Paul because like we're improving and he's like Well key to but he but he but he was sharp as a fucking we sort of locked into that thing with the you know This kind of like kind of thoughtful guide, but it wasn't deep thought necessarily You know, yeah, I still like that by the way. I know I'm not comfortable with the word nuance right All of that stuff out of his head that was all improvised all improvised so it really You know the we were all surprised when the movie came out that all that improvisation ended up at what the movie was it was a bunch Of guys hanging out bullshitting yeah, and that was that Barry had the balls and the confidence to say that's the movie I want to make it's there's no plot other than you're moving towards that wedding the wedding Yeah, which is all off-screen, but also the side stories like Mickey work and your girlfriend right right wife Ellen barkin Yeah, he was trying to plug my wife right right yeah Yeah, I know what I mean Ellen barkin you know she all the people really want to have you know relatively big careers Isn't it incredible certainly Kevin. Yeah.

Yeah, no and Mickey. I mean Mickey's genius these days. He's a crazy guy But yeah, what an actor always, you know an actor. Yeah, he's a he's a I remember seeing him at a club in New York After I saw diner and just being like what is up with that dude?

He's you know, he's one of those character actors a movie star, but movie star. Yeah for sure Yeah, but like you know he always hung with tough guys. Yeah, right right boxers Yeah, he fucking he wasn't kidding around because I guess that was like I can't remember what happened first diner Or that I think it was after that bit body heat body. He was after he was after he was after yeah That's what sort of made him was like I don't know counselor, you know, like yeah riveting yeah riveting dude and again that movie star thing where he He's so confident in that he's just interesting to look at that he doesn't have to do anything.

He doesn't do that he doesn't over act Yeah, it's just his presence. It's uncomfortable once they know that and they're able to be gracious within it I mean I just learned this yesterday I talked to Chris Pine the actor and he was talking about working with these guys who are movie stars and the ones that are amazing Are the ones that are grounded in it enough to allow space exactly for the other actors and he learned that from cosner? Another movie star right who just yeah, and that and that draws you in yeah, you know, I love I love actors I don't have that skill. I'm always trying to do something or creating a character But it's it's it's the gift that we love in the movies is to just have your every man be solid Or you're in the center of a storm Yeah, and you ride along with them and they bring you with them and yeah, some of them aren't always every men But you know they yeah, no, but you get you get them You know you write the essence of their starness so like so after like because here's the weird thing about my connection Diner is like I was in what year was that 80 so I was in college and I got after I'd seen it I thought in high school probably or maybe out just after I was down New York from Boston and I went to the comic strip And I would I always wanted to do comedy But I was not doing it because I was a kid You know I was you know not even 20 yet But Reiser was sitting there and I knew him from diner And I knew he was a comic and he was just sitting in a booth by himself and I remember going up to him and saying like All right, I want to do comedy How do I do it and he just said no just got to do it now was it that was my big interaction You know what it's that's true.

That's the thing it wasn't being an animal and so supportive. No. Yeah, that's all Yeah, that's all yeah figure it out. Yeah, I know Paul Paul is it's still a dear dear dear friend Oh, that's good.

Yeah, well. He's another guy They like made some bread and so fuck it I'm gonna raise my family and have a life and yeah But he goes on you know and he yeah now now he's got a bit of time off though. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean that's an interesting I think he's doing a little stand-up. I don't know how it's going on there. Yeah, I've got he's so good Yeah, he's still pretty much himself.

Yeah, he just is like I don't know if you're that kind of comic But like his mind goes to a joke. It's it's like a computer. Yeah, he gets a situation something happens His mind turns it into something funny immediate. Let's ever call I think he's one of those guys that really like he wanted to act Yes, like he wasn't a stand-up wasn't the end all no and that when he did start acting he really got away from it And then writing he's a brilliant writer.

Yeah, he's developed the mad about you show. He writes a movie produces a movie You know, he's yeah, yeah, and an incredible piano player to really musician. I mean just a deep talented man Oh, that's good, but I mean when you do diner and you play that funny part You know you feel for your guy you know more than the other guys. You know, I'm married.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah Yeah, yeah, and you got the record. That's right. You were a record. Yeah, you're obsessed with the records everything had to be in order Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was a real character.

Yeah real character work because I'm a fucking slob Yeah, but do you know like at that point? You know like well, I'm not a movie star of per se. I'm a character actor or like you yeah Yeah, I was I loved that. Yeah, I never wanted to be I never had a desire to be the main horse I started to feel really good writing right behind yeah, the lead people I want to be the best friend that that always feels good to me because again I I mean I don't remember thinking it then but I know it to be true now.

Yeah, I'm not the guy I'm not the movie star. I'm not I don't I don't the camera doesn't do Bring that out in me when I stand there. Maybe more now. Yeah, I'm older.

Maybe I give You know, but even now I don't want to I don't want to just stand there and be me I don't have to carry the fucking movie exactly just come in score Yeah, you know and I've carried some movies and yeah, you know, like I The joke to me is if they're offering me the lead I'm sure the director is a tall Jewish guy who you know who sees himself and me and wants him to be the star of the movie It's never gonna work is that is that that to not to be true? I've on the yes Oh, yeah, if you if you dig deep into that IMDB. Yeah, there's a couple of yeah get crazy. Yeah boss's wife You know, yeah, I'm the you're a romantic lead.

Yeah, it's like okay. That's not good But the director of Ziggy Steinberg saw me as the guy but you like you definitely had a good run after that Oh, yeah, I mean you're always working right. Yeah, you know Yeah, the goal at the time was to work with great directors Yeah, that was I had a leap frog up to an agent called named Sam Cone Yeah, and Sam he was Peter Yates's agent right Sam I mean he was what he Allen's agent I mean he was I remember that Sam, you know, just said just work with the directors But like in terms of like that being the goal of working with good directors What do you get out of that I mean other than the you know working with good directors, right? You learn Yeah, you learn that's where I learned to love and understand the making of movies Yeah, and sort of tickled my desire to be a director of the right movies and I mean that wasn't I don't think that wasn't Sam's goal It was to be in classy movies and get good, but as you said it doesn't always work out that way No, and you know, you never know but like Seeing how Barry Levinson handled himself on the set and how would he Allen directed the film and how Redford and how Schlesinger handles a crew And you start to you know, I got more and more experience on a set and seeing yeah Yeah, I mean in filmmaking.

Yeah, really as an art form really started to Mean something to me being an actor sure it took a long time to do it though. Yeah, right? Yeah, direct Yeah, I've eventually got my first directing thing is on the wonder years when I got that gig I Made that part of my deal But that's a good way to start because I especially with a show that's already got a dug-in look Yeah, then you can you can work within that right so there's you know different skill set You know, you have to the thing is what it is right? You can you know, yeah, and I was actually yeah I mean I got to trail the director on the pilot because I wanted to do it I directed one of the first episodes But I didn't have to invent the look of the show it was already there the kids were cast But it really yeah, it just gave me a lot of confidence on the floor Yeah, I run run the show and edit yeah score and all the things that go into movie Great.

Yeah, it's interesting about TV though that they do bring in a director to sort of like set the look Yeah, yeah, and then they kind of go away and yeah It's television directing was a great way to cut my teeth and I've done it since like I like to do it I've done it on shows that I am in or have friends running yeah, sure but to go in as a TV director just a guy I like that a lot of actors doing that. Yeah, it's a good gig But I just I just I'm interested in right it's amazing though You I mean because I think culturally the next generation after mine was gonna know you from those home alone movies Yeah, the city swickers movies But it's kind of astounding how much work you did with all these different people I mean like the Malago beanfield words I don't remember what your your role in that is but that was kind of a beautiful movie one of my favorites of all time Yeah, and that was a redford movie. Yeah, yeah with a great I played a social worker actually and but yeah, just I mean and you did Hannah and her sisters which is part of that trilogy the last of the Great Woody Allen movies really so I couldn't be I couldn't ask for more yeah of all the things I got to do and then yeah when the home alone stuff happened that was kind of a twist because I'd never I'd never Considered whether a movie was successful or not I didn't like that ended up being the number one movie and then the number one movie like week after week Yeah, and we were shooting city slickers at the time and Billy was like you're fucking movies number one again I'm like yeah, okay, and then it's number one again, and I'm like okay So but but that part like you know was there any resistance to it like when you got offered it or read for it how that worked? I wanted it desperately it took me back to those comedy all those comedy kids people I loved all the physical comedy Yeah, he was wrote a script that like when you see the movie if you have the script it's shot by shot John wrote it shot by Shot right so when I read that script yeah, I was on the floor laughing Yeah, this is the craziest and I done true West which is not the same character, but the physicality that I can use it I can use it was like I know how to look at that Asshole Sam Shepard's contribution to home alone a little nugget yeah, but no I wanted it I wanted to be in that very very much did you like have to read with Pashy before I Went in and read I knew Joe Joe and I did a movie what was that called a Jill Klayberg movie?

I'm dancing as fast as I am yeah Joe and I were buds I'll see you know friends on that and then yeah, he was in this no I went in and read for Chris Columbus and And then I drove away and I thought oh shit, you know I could do better and I went back I called my agent I said I can't do that better and they said no you're fine And I said no no I'm going back yeah, so I went back and I read for a twice that same day for I'm alone Yeah, because I really really did want that yeah, and just because it made me laugh so fucking over the choices that you made the second Time why do you think you didn't do well? I don't know I can't remember I just thought I Don't remember what I did I just remember going I want it so bad. Yeah, did I do it? You know in my mind I was like rerunning it in my head.

Yeah, no no no go just go back Yeah, and Chris said you didn't have to come back I was gonna give it to you anyway And I might have fucked that up, but yeah, but I think when I did it the second time I kind of did it I mean, you know again It's not high art yeah, whatever the sense of humor I mean there was also sent in the first one there was a sense of danger like you had to with Chris wanted and that's one reason why you get Pesci yeah, they should be scary Yeah, right right so that there's a threat so scary that the kid is threatened in a real way right But just I mean when we did the sequel it was like they're not scary to all they're just idiots But there was a yeah, but at the beginning of it It's like you know you got Joe and so I think maybe when I went back the second time I sort of had a good balance okay silly as threatening and then like in the movies you got you're basically in a comedy team with Pesci and you got to figure out that dynamic imagine just happened naturally completely yeah, yeah I mean Joe was we had a couple beers and like we all sat around Joe's like yeah, I'm gonna Make up a light you know like a cartoon so when he gets hitting the head with something He's like res I'm freaking freckle so he was like and it was always gonna be he was gonna be Mo Yeah, and I was gonna be curly and lay near both like a combo right he was gonna be right the brains right the organization right it would fit like a glove because we were already kind of goofy friends and And yeah, have you done good fellas already no, that's crazy. No he done. I think he done raging bull all right right right right But he's actually kind of a funny part. Oh, you know, I mean he makes me let he's so fucking intense He makes me laugh.

Yeah, how scary he is. Yeah, it's not when he wants to be yeah Yeah, it's kind of it comes out of your my clown. You know, I mean, it's like me. Yeah perfect.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, yeah, no funny.

Yeah So wait now city swickers that's some comedy heavy weights. Yeah, you're dealing with right yeah and Jack Valance like legend Did you get to talk to him? I did you know? I really got to I got to know Jack more on the second one Yeah, cuz he we had more time on the set But right palance was just an intimidating Wonderful dude, and it finally broke through I mean he was just a genius of an artist.

Yeah, he was a painter and a poet yeah And he's the one who and a rancher Yeah, and he's he's the one who really inspired me to put down the acting thing in pursue other art forms made you realize that you could have a Bigger life exactly Jack really inspired me on that second one especially and it's like, you know You can and I ended up buying a cattle ranch and getting into my sculpture life and quitting the movie just from from home alone in city Swicker money. Yeah, I got some I got good days. Yeah, I was like well You became a farmer I did for a while still am I live on a tangerine farm? I gave you the freakin juice Yeah, I know there's different than cattle.

Well, I have a cattle ranch to you do yeah, and what do you do with it? Are you out there with the cows? Well, I have a cattleman who runs his cows, but I you know I heard him with him I don't ride a horse. I'm on my quad Yeah, I helped them brand stuff and I take hikes and where's that it's in Central Valley.