Episode 155: How Bigger Bodies Can Go Barefoot

If you're a larger person, then going barefoot or being in minimal shoes is horrible for you, right? Maybe not the way you think, maybe not at all. We're gonna find out more about that on today's episode of the movement movement, the podcast for people who want to know the truth about what it takes to have a happy, healthy, strong body starting feet first, you know, those things are your foundation, by the way. And we break down the propaganda, the mythology, and sometimes the flat-out lies you've been told about what it takes to run or walk or hike or play or to yoga or cross or whatever it is.

Do that enjoyably, do it efficiently, do it effectively. Did I say enjoyably? Trick question? I know I did.

Because look, if you're not having fun, you're not gonna keep it up. So do something different so you're having a good time. I'm Stephen Sashan, your host in the movement podcast. I'm gonna talk a little bit about the movement about natural movement, letting your body do what it's made to do without getting in the way of that, with technology, quote unquote, technology that actually gets in the way of that.

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First of all, welcome to people who you are and what you do. Welcome, everybody. Thank you, Stephen, for having me on the show today. I totally appreciate your time.

And my name is Charlotte Young-Bones. I am the founder of Conscious Gear. It's a company that's focused on providing outdoor gear and apparel for bigger bodies. I tell people how I started the business that I had a health scare.

Many years back, the doctors said I had blood pressure, high blood pressure, high cholesterol, I was borderline diabetic, and I was mortally obese. But it's not your best life. You know, okay. And the doctor was nice enough to say that, you know, the next time you have a health scare, you might know we go.

And so I decided I wanted to wake up and what I did was I went to the gym. And only thing I could do on that first day was go for two minutes at two miles per hour. But I tell people that with a little persistency and you're using my minimalist shoe routine 16 months later, I crossed the finish line in my first 50-mile ultramarathon. As a woman in a bigger body, curvier, taller body.

And so I'm here to say that, you know, bigger bodies have a new norm, but that bigger bodies can do amazing things. And then I really want people to understand like, you know, just happen to it. That's all I want you to do. So yeah.

You know, first of all, I love that. And we had a, I didn't deal with Heather Vincent, who's a researcher in Florida, who spends a lot of time researching women who are, well, not just women and men who are heavier. And her research is very interesting. I'm going to cut to the chase with this one.

It's like many people think, I get emails all the time for people saying, hey, I weigh 300 pounds, I weigh 350 pounds, I weigh 400 pounds. You know, will your shoes work for me? And it's a really entertaining question for a lot of reasons. Sometimes they're asking because they've worn shoes where the foam just compresses so quickly that it just stops working on this immediately.

We don't have that issue. And sometimes they're just worried about joints and everything else. And of course, Heather's research shows that many heavier people actually have better running and walking form than those who don't. Because frankly, they're not able to move, they have to move efficiently because they're just trying to move so much mass around.

And which is completely contrary to what most people would think. But once you spend a moment, it's like, oh, that makes total sense. So when you're working with someone, I mean, actually in terms of providing gear or working with someone, so actually, let me start there. How are you trying to get the word out to people for whom your message and information are valuable is valuable?

I think for me, the number one I'm going to be doing, you know, is just kind of doing things like this, podcast to share my story. I do want to share that, you know, how I kind of got into minimalist was initially, I was making some six-sole gym shoes at the gym on the treadmill. And then one day I forgot them. And so I was like, more committed to doing the workout because I was like, if you don't keep this up, you probably not going to keep this up.

And then I was on the treadmill, barefoot. I just forget, I got my shoes on. I just do a barefoot. It was like the best, one of the best walks of my life.

And I learned a couple of different things. I want people to understand, it's like, yeah, your body's going to have aches and pains and things. And mine's did, but you got to understand what those aches and pains are about. Allow your body to readjust and adapt.

Our bodies are so amazing and I have found that what I love most about being a minimalist kind of barefoot runner is that my feet get to touch the earth and have a relationship with the energetic people. Which is why I really feel like, and also spiritual lesson for me, that I was able to do a 50-mile arch marathon in a bigger body. So, yeah, it's not, you know, I'm not people. I kind of want to just start spreading a message.

Like, don't be afraid because there is a misnomer. And doctors do prescribe to bigger bodies, gym shoes that are super specific. And you can't, in a bigger body, you can't walk around in those shoes because you do have a lot of mass. And your foot is constantly trying to figure out how to navigate all that cushion and the way it cushions.

And our bodies are different. You know, and so you end up having a more unfulfilling experience with getting back into being physically active because of your shoe. Because of your shoe. You probably need to do with just the one off.

Come on. Yeah, it's funny. I mean, what you're highlighting is of course the message that all of us who are into barefoot slash minimalist talk about, but people really don't think about it until you're in the situation you're describing where when you have that aftermath and you're dealing with the cushion, you're going to be able to really support you properly. There's more instability.

There's more issue. And you're not getting the feedback to adapt to that instability. And you don't want the instability to be with. But if you're going to have it, I mean, it's a vicious cycle where you're unstable and then you can adapt properly because you're unstable.

What's so amazing to me is that given the statistics about overweightness for lack of a better term in America, I'm so much shocked that this isn't a much bigger conversation, frankly. Well, we've been a very anti-faceted society. So that's why we're not really having these conversations. It's quite a lot.

Oh, that's so easy. Yeah, that's over one. But I do think that we're starting to have this kind of body positivity size andclusivity conversation, which I hope some of this other information will also kind of start to rise, level up to the top two as well. Okay, let's just cut to the end of the story.

So how do we get Liz on board? I think we just go to Liz. More than open to having this conversation and more than happy to support the elevating the conversation around it. Yeah.

Well, I think I think this the phrase you had just go to Liz. Oh, that's the challenging part. So, yeah, well, that's true. She's not for turning my calls since you got famous.

I mean, how it is. So, but I'm not joking when I say that because we are we have a bunch of celebrities who are wearing our shoes. Many of whom can't promote that because they're sponsored by Bigger shoe companies, which is really annoying because there's pictures of them in our shoes, even though they're getting millions of dollars from some big company. But seriously, I can't think I mean, obviously, you know, Short skinny white guy has less of a chance of getting through to Liz other than you do just FYI can't wait, wait, nudge, nudge.

I'm just saying. Well, do we know that let me say this, let's just look at the fashion industry and the fashion industry, particularly as it relates to performance shoes. They are designed for skinny white boys. Right.

It's getting African dudes that run. You know what I mean? You know what I mean? It's getting your African dudes that runs.

Okay, faster. They are not designed for women, bigger bodies, differently abled folk to really, because there's times I buy brand new shoe and I'm like, why? Is my ankle is hurting? Yeah, brand new shoe.

You just said that it has all these features and amenities and all the things supposed to do to help me run faster. And the first time I wear it, my ankles are hurting because you didn't design it for me and you didn't have me in mind. You were designing it and I get that now. So I think that's the message you need to say to all these celebrities.

Look, you can continue to support Nike Adidas and all these other words. Like, look, do you Nike Adidas? Understand that there's no option to and that there's enough to go around and you should have to feel like you got to pigeonhole yourself because, you know, people are scared of a little competition. So, yeah, that would be my advice.

Well, I got to tell you, some of the bigger companies are scared of the competition. When we were, oh my gosh, we were one 20th of the size of the society. We are right now. We were a tiny little company and we were getting, well, I'll say this way, we had a $1.5 million order, which is going to be the biggest order we've ever had from a major retailer.

And coincidentally, the day that we were going to click, submit and place the order with us, they got a call from a multi-billion dollar company saying, we don't want to share issues in your store because earlier we had been in a sort of iconic local store that the big companies used sort of just to see what's happening in the market. And we went to them during a holiday weekend and they freaked out. And it took us a couple of years to get over that and get back into that store. And we hear it now.

I mean, it's a fascinating thing. But be that it. I want to back up a giant step in the conversation. When you got on a treadmill barefoot and you said it was life-changing, obviously, but you said, hey, it was a camera-ready phrase, not great.

But you also talked about the aches and pains part. So can you break that down, talk about both sides? What was the part more specifically that was so wonderful for you? And then let's talk about the aches and pains so we can address those more specifically so people know what they might have to expect or what they might be able to avoid with a little new information.

I think when I first started walking on the treadmill, you know, barefoot is that I did feel some aches and pains in my knees and my ankles. But I've always been in the mindset, okay, this is a signal that something's going on in your body. Now, what I want you to do is just go for another minute. If it continues or gets worse, then we stop.

But if it doesn't, then you get to keep moving. And what happened was it stopped. And so I can't move in. And so what I've always learned too is a woman in a bigger body who does like long distance running is that there will be points of time when you will have aches and pains.

It is, of course, pay attention to them. But I tell people, give it a minute. Sometimes your body is just in the process of re adapting and adjusting so that you can feel good again. But we don't ever give it enough time.

We hear the instant pain. We do the instant stop. And I tell people, no, just keep going. Let's see what happens three to five minutes from now.

And I will say about minimalist shoes. I've never saw you said earlier today. It's like people are not going to fit. The beauty of these shoes are they're designed around a real foot.

Yeah. And so whatever body you're in, I have found that I never have these issues with with and how I rest on my foot with other shoes, but with my shoes, I'll buy my size. And it's always 100% up. Never have any issues.

Yeah. I mean, the point that you made I love, which is essentially I'm going to reframe it to use the sensation you're getting as feedback. Become your own coach and listen to what's going on. And the thing that I'm going to highlight is when you do feel one of these little aches or pains and you approach it with a sense of curiosity, what your brain is going to try to do is shift something, move something a little differently to get you out of that.

You don't want to like just keep doing the same thing and pushing. You want to listen and kind of let your body back. Like my story, I don't know if you know what I don't expect. You would is when I, my second barefoot run had a giant blister on the ball of my left foot from my first barefoot run, which I didn't even know that I had until after I finished that run.

And it's like, oh, that's weird. Big ball blister on the ball of my foot on my left foot. But my right foot's fine. That's interesting.

So my second run, I, when it was still had this gaping hole in my foot. And I thought, let's take a 10 minute run. And if I can't find a way to do it where it doesn't hurt, then I'll stop. And if I can find a way to do it where it doesn't hurt, that means I'm probably not doing the thing that caused the gaping hole.

And so, but what I paid attention to was my good leg. I paid attention to the right leg. Like, what's it doing correctly? And then at the nine minute and 30 second mark, my left leg got the hand and suddenly everything was infinitely instantly better.

And never went away. And so this whole idea of listening, and this is something, you know, I wonder if this is an obstacle for people who are in bigger bodies that maybe some of them have made it happen not to pay attention to not listen to some certain feedback or signals. And then I wonder, A, if that whole process of listening might be a bit of a challenge, but I also wonder if it might be helpful across the board. Once you start paying attention to your feet, what that does about the way you're paying attention to the rest of your body.

I do think that when you're in a bigger body, you're struggling already with a society as constantly my body. You would make a message about being in that big body. So if you can, you know, I think you also can't get it to the victim mentality. So if you're going to hurt a little bit, you're going to use that as a reason for why you're not going to move anymore.

And so what big your bodies have got to do is just say, well, this is not about nobody but me that I'm recommitted to me. I'm getting ready to get to know me. I think I really want to spread the message that our bodies are so freaking amazing. You know what I mean?

You can't tell me as a bigger body woman who does ultra fucking marathons after sitting on our ass for two decades, eating processed foods, smoking syrux severely depressed. You can't tell me that our bodies are not can be capable of whatever it is we want them to be capable of and that being in a bigger one, the society would like to make you think that because you're in a big body. You can do certain things. We need to just continually dispel that myth that great things can happen.

But we also got to be willing to be a part of that process with our bodies. They take time to adjust. My body has, we have a full on relationship. She cuts us me out sometimes.

And you know, I mean, we go back and forth. But if I'm good to her, she's good to me. And I'm like, yes, we got this. I just want to be a voice of a curse with the people like, don't give up.

Like, don't give into the hype. It's like, it's a lie. It's a big fat line. You can do great.

You know, I mean, we both chuckle at the idea of sort of separating you and your body and having a relationship with her. But I think that's actually a really valuable thing to do is to play with that. Whether you're running or walking or doing anything, just to play with that sort of whatever the second person approach to yourself because if we really look carefully, that's in many ways more accurate as an experience. Like, there's this sense of me and there's this thing that does stuff.

You know, sometimes I've actually spent time referring to myself with, this is way before the whole pronoun issue. I just want to refer to myself as it. It's like, you know, it's having a thought. It's doing that.

Which is a really interesting thing to do for a couple of days. I mean, it makes people feel weird around you. But just to do it internally in a way, after a little while, it feels a little more accurate to say it's having a thought because if you notice, you quote unquote, didn't make that thought arise. It just showed up.

You didn't make yourself cross your legs that way. They just did. And this is a really good experiment for people to play around with thinking of your body or your mind or both as independent entities, just to see what you learned from doing that. I think that's a really cool thing that you just pointed to.

I tell people there are times when I'm doing my ultramarathons where there are miles. I don't remember at all. I don't remember my feet hitting the ground. I don't remember my body moving through space and time.

And I say that as little as she must take over. She must do the work. She must somehow say, well, this is what I need to come in because that big scene, she probably couldn't do this without being here. So yeah, I mean, I do think there is.

I love the fact that I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, we'll see what we don't do today, girl. Like, you know what? And let her tell me. I just, I think you're right.

I think if people would entertain that for a minute, they might really discover something magnificent about their relationship to our bodies. And I don't think we have these kind of relationships with our bodies, you know? Well, we really have any kind of relationship with our bodies. Certainly not one that's great.

And there's some people who don't know what's below their neck, which I'm not even necessarily saying is a bad thing. There's certain people where that's the way they should be. I mean, I had a good friend who went to Harvard when he was 15 and he was dating a woman who was from this new age university and was a psychologist and was always complaining to him that he was just in his head. And he of course took that on as a bad sign.

I went, dude, you're one of the smartest guys on the planet. Stay in your fucking head. That's what you're here for. You're really good at that.

The body stuff, you don't do that very well. That's okay. And when he finally kind of ironically, when he got over that idea and kind of, I think maybe she dumped him. I don't know if he dumped her.

It doesn't matter. He ended up with a woman who was equally really, really brainy and did not criticize him for being really, really brainy and quote in his head and they're fine. That's a good time. There's a book.

I'm pushing around what it was. It was a story about a guy who was, he was probably dating maybe married to something just dating a woman who was convinced again that he was always in his head, wasn't attached to his feelings and made him go to therapy. He was in therapy like five days a week and after a year, the therapist said, I don't see there's anything wrong with you. And he said, well, then what do you recommend?

I do. And the therapist says, I would go to Eastern Europe where the women don't think that knowing your feelings is really important. Hello. And so he did.

He went to somewhere in Eastern Europe, met a wonderful woman who never says, you know, what are you feeling? They've been married for like 30 years. So anyway, now I'm not suggesting that you should, that it's better or worse, frankly, to have no relationship with your body. I guess where I'm going is it's an interesting thing to experiment with and see what we discover and see what works for you.

So I want to, I got to back up to another piece. So you went from being on a treadmill for a few minutes and then we skipped all the way to 50 mile all track. I'm guessing there was some stuff in the middle. So in between, so I went back to my shoes on the treadmill and discovered I was having pains again and there's something dawned on me after a while.

Remember that day when you didn't bring a shoe then? And I just kind of back to that. And then I started saying, okay, let's go outdoors. And I started with Jim shoes because you're really socially conditioned to put those jumpshues on.

I mean, it's just a message that you're always getting on the time. And so and also, you probably, people think if you're a black big or black big or black big, you're homeless. So you're thinking about how the girls can contextualize you being a beer fee. So you know, yeah, all that stuff.

But as I went into the trails, wait, hold on, hold on. Again, as a, you know, medium skinny white guy, I can assure you, it doesn't make a difference whether you're a big black woman or a skinny white guy. If you're in bare feet, they think you're homeless. Okay.

You're homeless depending on your hair, right? So then I started a trail running and it's so funny. My spirit is a trail running. I used to always carry my shoes.

And for the first mile or two, I would wear them, right? Because again, I'm just like, I don't want people to think I'm weird. And then I would take them off. And then I would do the rest of the run.

And then right as I'm getting at the end, I put shoes back on again. It's kind of normal again. Yeah, because it was like, people don't think I'm weird. I remember from many months, I really, really worried about people think I was weird.

And then at some point, I was going to pin that direction, keep going. But then over time, I was just like, I just started to stick like it. Like, you know, if the partner is going to arrest me for being barefoot, then I'll cross the bridge when I get there. No, I'm sorry for interrupting, but you're heading exactly where I imagined, which is I want people to realize that if you are going to spend time barefoot, and I'm not saying that you have to, but it is terribly fun.

The story that I love to tell is I'm usually barefoot. But if I do wear shoes, they're mismatched colors. And I mean, I mean, the pharmacy line at Costco a couple months ago, and there's a guy behind me and he says, Hey, your shoes don't match. And the pharmacist without looking up or missing a beat says he's wearing shoes.

So, but the point I want to make is you probably know, I don't know anyone who has really gotten to the point of being oblivious or really, how do I put this? Not being self-conscious about being in front of public, but you get to the point of either being a little, what's the word, not adversarial, but a little, you know, having a little bit of, yeah, I'm barefoot, you know, it's a little bit of an attitude in your mind or that kind of, you know, screw it. I don't really care what people think. And so, you know, you'll have that self-conscious moment and then just go, no, I'm enjoying this.

I like this. I don't care. I mean, I'm probably never going to see these people again. They don't know who I am.

Well, they do know who I'm around here. But more importantly, you know, this is an, I think this is an important thing because some people who want to try, even trying minimalist footwear, let alone going barefoot, will be a little self-conscious and think that that's a problem. And I'm going to suggest that it's just a feature, not a bug. And the opportunity is to roll with that and be the kind of person who bucks the system because you're getting benefits.

You're enjoying it. And you know, if you want to be proselytizing, tell everyone why that's fine too. But I think, you know, there's so many times where we fight with our internal experience and it's what we're talking about around pain. And there's another opportunity to welcome that and question that and be curious and investigate and see what happens.

I mean, because I definitely go on phases where I, there's certain stores where I reliably get hassled and then allowed to be barefoot. You know, they'll stop me and then I'll explain what's going on in there, whatever, but next time. And then I go in there for the next time as well. But sometimes I'm just not moody deal with it.

I put on a pair of shoes and that's cool. Yeah. Yeah. So, okay.

So you started going outside and started doing trails again. We still got a way to go before we get to a 50-mileer. And so then I thought to myself having grown up in a very Christian household. Jesus was barefoot.

Come on. Jesus wore sandals. You've seen the pictures. Well, Jesus sandals are barefoot.

I just felt like barefoot is Jesus sandals. But anyways, and I went to YouTube. And that's when I found you. And I was like, oh, so there are crazy people like me out there.

And it really does. Like, this is real. Like, I'm not making this up. I'm not some freakin' nature.

It was so comforting. It was like, okay. Oh, my God. I just remember how liberating it was.

I was like, I'm not a freakin' nature. Thank you. Like, you know, I'm many things, but I'm not that bad. No, that's a really good one too, because the people who are doing this, especially barefoot people, there is that finding that you're not alone or you're not the only one is really helpful.

But it's also, from another perspective, human beings like to be part of groups, that they don't like to be outside of groups. And so when people, when we talk about the whole idea about natural movement, I keep saying there's gonna be a certain point where we hit critical mass, where there's enough awareness. There's enough people doing this that even the doubters are not gonna see them. Not, we're not gonna be the outgroup.

We're gonna be a growing in group. And then people are gonna wanna try it. They're gonna go, okay, I'm familiar enough. Let's give it a whirl.

And then the experience is super found. Then they become part of the in group. And then we become the in group. I mean, that's the way these things happen.

And that's all we're trying to make happen. So, okay, so you got over the weird part. And you were still not still not. So I googled, I found you.

I'm not a freak. I bought some of your shoes. And then I went to a training where I was like the second of the last train run before the 50-mileer. And several people were like, oh, you're a minimalist.

So they affirmed me. They didn't make it seem weird. They felt like, oh, you're one of those. But it wasn't a bad one to go.

And they're like, how is it? They were really curious too. And then that let me know, oh, I'm gonna do this. And some people are gonna know about it.

Some people won't. But I don't care anymore. And I just became committed. I can't stress enough just how good it has felt for my feet to be close to the ground.

I don't know how to explain that. It's spiritual. It's energetic. I just can't.

I don't know how to explain that other than that. A friend of mine says, especially on trails walking in her shoes because it's instant meditation. Yeah, I do think it's that too. For sure.

Well, and not in a basically in a way that is just bringing your attention to something on a regular basis. It sort of focuses your attention. It's not that you're not thinking it's not that you're in La La Land. Yeah, it just does this thing with focus that is simultaneously aware of what's happening in your feet because that's what you're bringing this wired for.

But also really aware of the environment at the same time. So there's a simultaneous inside outside awareness, which is unusual for most people to experience. I do think I'm in my moments more. I do experience.

I love feeling the way my foot will wrap around rocks and leaves and quirks in the trail and technical stuff. And because I remember when I wore shoes, you know, I was wearing my ankles. But then as a minimalist, it was like, it's just a natural way. I would adapt adjust and keep me moving and be all right.

You know, I didn't fall or I didn't get injured. I tell people that I think not going to let I've been injury free because of my lifestyle. And I'm a big girl. So if anybody should be getting injuries, you should be.

The only serious, for lack of a bit from serious injury I've had since I got out of big, big, bad emotional shoes was a couple months ago and had nothing to do with my footwear or anything. It was I have a compromise spine. So my L5S1 or way I whack the bones are practicing touching each other, etc. And I was just doing a warm up drill and just sort of twisted as I landed on one foot and it nailed my sciatic and it, you know, my sciatic just sort of lit up my right leg and went, and we're done.

And that took just a while to unwind because I've just got this major problem. But the joke is that I've had doctors for 15 years telling me I can't run because of my back. And here I am, you know, one of the fastest in the country. So the fact that I had that, you know, one weird little thing that had nothing to do with barefoot or shoes, it just had to do with my physiology.

That's it. I mean, other than that, you know, maybe a tiny little tweak where I took a day off. I mean, that's there's a guy. I was in a panel discussion years ago.

And this guy says very accusatorily. You barefoot people say that somebody gets an injury. It's just because they have bad form. I went, yeah.

You nailed it. So here's a weird question that popped into my head. When you're out running, whether you're a racer or you're just pumping a people in the gym or on the road or whatever, I'm guessing that there are some people, if you end up talking to them, and they see you running, they will say something about how you're inspiring. Am I incorrect?

Yes. Yeah. A lot of people. And how do you respond to that?

How it usually goes is that people are like, Oh my God, I've been thinking about that and tell me about your experience and then I share a little bit about my experience and then I don't know if I could do that. And I tell people, first of all, I can't hear that. I'm a bigger body. I'm a bigger body woman who does this and does this well.

And my body has a depth and you're significantly smaller than me. So I don't know. I can't hear that. I just can't because like, there's no way that you can say you can't.

I can say I can't in the world would accept that. But from you know, and so I think in many ways, I kind of challenge them to rethink how they think about it. And I always tell people, you know, I do this for anything. I said, start small, like walk to the mailbox a couple times, walk to the corner and back, you know, like I told me I started two minutes at two miles per hour.

So you can't tell me you can't. So, you know, I hope I inspire on the try and people generally do the call back to me. Yeah, I got my first pair and it's been good and I'm like, good, good for you. Because the whole idea when someone says you're an inspiration, on the one hand, I mean, it's a bit of a compliment, but it's also it does create that separation.

It does create that thing where it's also I mean, it's also a weird sort of insult. And it's like, oh, I'm only inspiring because you would think that someone like me can't do the thing you just saw me do. Yeah, I think I don't internalize it that way. I don't know.

One more fact activist friends would. I don't know. Well, I think I'd like to respond to you that way, Charlotte. You know, I don't like the whole inspiration thing.

It's just a weird concept for me in general. If I'm really an inspiration, then that should make you inspired to go do something, not just say something where, you know, again, whatever you're thinking, that's not the important part. It's like, are you doing something by seeing this? Are you is this really motivating you?

I hate that word too. Is this literally inspiring you, which is about getting that in breath inspiration to then do that out breath going out and doing something. That's, I mean, that's an inspiration. And I wonder, you know, how many people, what's been your experience from people seeing you and then making that change?

I'm gonna do this too. Well, I always think about it as a journey, right? And I use the parallel being queer, because I'm a queer person as well. And coming out is a process that I think coming into minimalist is a process and that we all have our own journeys.

We're all gonna do it our own way. People are gonna extract whatever inspiration they want you from me and throw the rest out. And I just want, I honor the fact that I just want to be able to give you another option to say that might be another way and that if you can stings really in your mind and they feel like, hmm, maybe this is speaking to me. I want you to know that.

Yeah, that's a real voice. I just want to honor their journey as it is. I don't feel like I need to inspire anybody. I just feel like I'm just a conduit for what you already knew.

Really? Perfect. That's brilliant. I love that.

And FYI, when I was with my now late father and was going barefoot in places where he, a very socially conscious person, was not happy. He would have been much happier if I told him I was gay. I figure right that might be the most people I think I still true to this day. I think I still true to this day.

I think that I'm quite happy that I'm queer and I am. I remember in college, I was dating a woman who my dad did not approve of and he kept asking, are you seeing anyone? I kept saying, yeah, I'm still seeing Jenny. And that's not what I meant.

And finally, one day he says, are you seeing anyone? I said, you know, I actually met someone new. He goes, oh, really? I said, yeah, and I think you're really going to like him.

And he says, that's not even funny. I said, I'm not kidding. Of course I was. I had to keep driving that.

He gave his heart. So that was my relationship with my dad is always undercutting his things. Like he used to say, well, this is an amazing thing that he used to say, which was, so I was raised technically Jewish, let's say. He said, well, I want my grandson to be bar mitzvahs.

And I said, that's assuming that a, I get married, b, we have children, c, it's a boy, c, he's raised Jewish. He lives to be 13. He gets a bar mitzvah and you live to see any of this old man. And that would be.

So that was, he had a very particular way things had to be and I was never those things. So this was yet another in that equation. And I will say, sadly, the only thing he really understood was business things, money related things. And so sadly, he died about seven years ago and didn't get to see what zero issues had become that would have made him very happy.

I don't have a thing about pride. It would have just been happy, which would have been nice. Like when we were in Shark Tank, he invited all of his socially conscious friends over with my mom to watch the show and they were all impressed and that gave him social credit. I don't have this thing about being proud, but for him, it was a big deal that we were on the show and I'm glad that the show and I was, you know, gave him that.

But anyway, that's a giant tangent. So, I had another question. So when you're out on doing a 50 talk, well, there's another thing that I imagine people are thinking and I don't know if you encounter this or not. People think that you're out doing these things in order to become a different body person, to become thinner, to lose weight like that's your real motivation.

And so how do you deal with that? I do know that being in a bigger body, people think, oh, she's out here to lose weight. What's also interesting is that even though I'm bigger body, I do find that honestly white men are intimidated by me and they have this need to pass me back here super fast. As if they've passed the fastest black person on planet, which I'm probably so as well.

But anyways, and how I deal with that is, oh, yeah, this is what happens. People will be like, well, how long you been doing this? And I'm like, oh, this is like my maybe six or seven. And they're like, well, isn't it?

You know, you're trying to lose weight. And I'm just trying to be healthy. And I said, I allow little C, which is my body to decide what size I'm going to be. You know, I take care of her.

She takes care of me. I tell people that the truth about me is that when I go under 200, I perform it as cloments. When I say around 200 pounds, I'm like faster as light. If I go over that, I plummet.

So my body has re-regulated itself to say that this is a sweet spot for you as it relates to being able to be physically active and optimal performance. And so, you know, people do struggle with that. I'm like, I just do what my body says is the right thing to do. And I said, you have to understand too, like the statistics are out.

Nearly 70% of US adults are overweight or obese. That means that bigger bodies are the new norm. Will you guys please stop? That's the reason to be the question.

So true. People, that's so funny. People act like it's still an outlier when it's not an eye man. And I imagine there are people who come up to you who are overweight who still have that same thought.

Absolutely. Yeah. That's the part that hurts. I'm like, babe, that body right there is amazing.

Just like, we gotta tap into it. And I tell people, like, look, I was in my 40s when I started. What? Never athletic.

I tell you, I spent over 20 years sitting on my fat ass, center lifestyle, smoking cigarettes, eating processed foods, depressed. Who would have ever imagined? Who would have ever wanted to envision this moment now? It's me being in this bigger body and doing these amazing things.

No one, not even me. Well, there's another part to your story that I find very interesting, which is that your doctor said gave you this prognosis and that started to change things. But I'm willing to bet that you got a similar prognosis at some time in the past. I mean, this could be wrong.

But let me say, I'm always intrigued when someone has one of those moments. I'm like, oh, no, now things are different. Now I'm going to do something different. And my question is always, you know, why that day and not the day before or the day after.

Is there something, I mean, I don't know if there's an answer to this one, but since you had one of those moments, you know, was there something, if you look back, was there a time before where it just didn't, that thought just didn't make it to the surface? Or, you know, how do you think about that moment in retrospect? I think for me, I was a single mom and I was too busy raising my kids. By that point in time, they were grown.

So you're working class trying to put food on table for your three kids. You, I don't count me, I'm just going to go to doctor. You, you're not listening to anything. Right.

You've got other things that are more important and your health is the last one on the list. Okay. So I just never listened. I remember saying, they say, Oh, yeah, I have a pressure.

I remember those moments. I vaguely remember. I think when you're younger. And she comes in a different way because you're like, I'm young and I'm invisible.

When you get to your 40s, your kids are grown. I think information comes in differently. And I think for me, I would say my depression really was, was the piece. It had gotten so bad.

I mean, I was in suicide ideation and everything. And I was like, so when I had to health scare the doctor, you can die. All of a sudden I had to say myself, well, do you really want to die? You know, you're thinking about this, you think about this every day.

Anyways, do you really want to die? Like here's your opportunity, you know, here you are in this moment. Like he's saying, if you can take it, you can actually kill yourself. Do you really want to die?

And I think it just woke me the fuck up. I just said, no, I don't want to die. Yeah. And no, I don't know how to live.

But I don't want to die. And just timing is just a moment. You know, I tell people like life is like this experience and there will be these little be the cracks that you cannot predict. And then all of a sudden there's breakthrough.

Yeah. You can ever predict at that moment. I tell you, I can't even tell you, like with the trails. I remember there's a point time I was on the trails one day and I was like saying myself, God, I'm not suicidal or crusted hardly anymore.

Like, it was like, I didn't, I was like, I'm trying to, but there's something that happens when you're out moving your body on a regular basis. I believe the biochemistry is definitely changing. The blood is circulating in such a way that your bodies are spawning and saying, yes, let's live. Let's do this.

And then you're like, yeah, this is pretty good. I like it. You know, and you're like, how did I get here? I tell people there is no single moment.

It was a accumulation of a lot of little tiny moments that got me to where I was at. And so, and I really, I tell people my blessing around my experiences is when I went to the gym that first day, I fell off the treadmill two times. Then this guy came over who worked there and said, look, man, can I help you? And I thought he was trying to flirt with me.

So I was a little mad at you. But then I was like, yeah, you can help me. And so what he did is I'm a dude. She said I'm a turn machine on two times because we're going to figure out some things about where you are in terms of your level fitness.

So I turn machine on. I want you to, I'm going to keep speeding up and get too fast. Let me know. And then I'm going to turn it off.

So he does that. The second time he's like, I'm a go at this speed that I think is just comfortable for you. And not too fast. But I want you to go for as long as you can go.

And then I'm stopping the machine. Just let me know. So I tell him, okay, I go, I go and I'm like, stop, stop, stop. And then he said, look, good job.

Tomorrow when I want you to do something, I'm trying to go back to my own dude to say, we're trying to do it. We're trying to do it. We're trying to do it. We're trying to do it.

We're trying to do it for two minutes at two miles per hour. This is how you set the machine to make that happen. And he said, but what I want you to know is that the entire time you will go faster and you'll go longer. What he did was he seated in my soul.

Something, right? Yeah. We didn't know on that first day that I would do a 50 mile marathon a year later. But in that moment, he just honored me for where I was at.

He said, good job. Come back and do it tomorrow. But no, you'll go faster. No, you'll go longer.

I tell people that was the miracle of the moment. Hey, I got goosebumps. Be on the verge of crying. Cause I mean, that is like one of the sweetest things I've heard in quite a long time.

And I mean, everything about that, both just coming over and being caring. And you mentioned that he made was perfect, not just for you, for everybody. That's exactly the way to approach it. Like do it, you know, do a little bit.

If it hurts, stop, come back and try again until it feels good. Do a little bit at the speed. If it feels too much, stop, slow down. And just know that it will get better.

And there's one other part I had, which is there's going to be in the learning, especially in the learning to move differently. There's going to be some moments where it feels frustrating, which is actually your brain laying down neural pathways. And so frustrating is all is a sign of growth because you'll notice that you'll take a couple days off. You'll come back and you'll do the same thing and it won't feel as frustrating.

And so then you can remember, oh, I learned something while I was resting. That's a critical thing to know. It's like these little bouts of what I'm doing. That's the intervention to tell my brain, let's change something.

Then the change happens when you're resting. So, you know, add in, put all those three things together. That's all you need to know to start wherever you are and get wherever you want to go. There are always moments when I could get from three to six miles, six to nine miles, nine to 15 miles, 50 to 25.

You know what I mean? But like you said, I would have these difficulties going on. And then if I just stopped and just rest, next thing I know I would go out and say I could never get a nine mile. My nine miles was my struggle.

Then I would go out and do that nine mile. It was as if I had been doing nine miles all my life. You know what I mean? Or running 20 miles.

I remember 20 miles. Then it was my next new sweet splat. And it was just when you rest and dial in and pounce it to your body, I just, I'm here to say it will reward you. I promise you.

I just don't hear to say I promise you really will. And that your body will respond no matter what your age is and what your physical size is. There was, I was at a lecture from a well-known ultra marathoner and someone said to him, I run a 50 mile race. I want to run a hundred.

What do I need to do to train for that? And the guy says nothing. You've already done all the training. It has nothing to do with your training at this point.

That was a gift for me too. One of the things I had early on in my arm running was this one is that you can do a 5k. You can do a 10k. If you do 2k, you can do half marathon.

If you do half marathon, you can do a marathon. And right before I did my first marathon, I learned about ultra marathons. So I took that philosophy and said, well damn, if I could do a marathon, you mean the second to all the marathon? And there I was.

On the playoffs. I love it. So what's next for you Charlotte? So now I'm trying to build this business, which is really taking away from you being outside as much as I would want to be, which has got to change because we're moving out of the way.

Hold that thought. I've wanted to do a video that's dying to suit and tie walking through to the office, the spacing. Do you want to have fluorescent lights, Excel spreadsheets and sitting on your butthole day? So you're a perfect candidate for a job in the outdoor industry.

Absolutely. So, you know, now I'm just like, I'm going to do a cropping campaign next year, race and money, so I can hire a team and they can take care of stuff so I can get back outdoors more. And really 20, 23 is about spreading the message that bigger bodies are the new norm and that your bigger body can do anything that I know to do. I love it.

Well, I'm hoping we can help you. And I know that we can. Well, there's some things we'll talk about offline. And I'm just basically, you know, we, I want to add another piece to the mix here.

You know, you're talking about people getting outdoors. And this is a big boy for lack of their term, let's say, conversation in the outdoor industry about lack of diversity, which is their their coy way of saying not enough black people out. And I'm curious about your thoughts about that. I mean, one thing I was actually, I was hanging on with these guys.

They were, they did a trip up Everest was an all black trip up Everest and I'm hanging out with all of them. And I said, you know, after this whole thing about inclusion and diversity came out, when all the magazines had black people on the cover and all the agile black people, did you feel like that was helpful or just pandering? That's the way it seemed to be too. But I'm curious what your perspective is about the outdoor industry, people just people getting out in general and the black community.

Man, so what do things that happened last year as I was part of our program, which was for minority outdoor founders. And so we were constantly having this conversation. And I think what I, this is what I feel like particularly as relates to black people that we have some healing to do in this country. And some of our most traumatic moments have happened outdoors.

Think about a black man being hanging from a tree. That is not something that allows a community to want to go outside and protect and help do recreation activities. You know, part of our underground railroad system is that we, you know, we ran for freedom through the woods, you know what I mean? But scared for our lives.

So there's some healing as a community that we got to do around the outdoors. But I feel like that's our work to do. But also I need for white folks and outdoors, you know, to just be open to the fact that you go and see diverse people in this basis. I always have this all time.

You know, I'm running barefoot. I'm a big black woman. People think something wrong. And the park rangers every time people come up to them and tell them, I'm a black lady.

She's loves. They laugh because they're like, this woman is not here every day. She's like, she's ultra bare thiner. So what are you talking about?

And then they try to, you know, quiet them down. But, you know, I think we all have to do some healing around just kind of being comfortable with other and outdoor spaces. I think it's going to take time. I think there's some specific healing that has to happen for those, those are African American have a history, slave ancestor history in this country.

And it'd be great if we would do something to kind of like they did in South Africa, like, I don't know, reconciliation or something. But I think we're just, I mean, the verdict is still out. I have found as a now a new outdoor industry, you know, founder that industry has a lot of systemic racism in it. And I was super surprised.

It absolutely does. Well, look, you know, athletics in general does mean it is interesting to me that so many of our most revered athletes are black athletes. And yet that's not an inspiration. I mean, that in a certain way seems to perpetuate this kind of divisive thinking in a way that's very peculiar, frankly.

And I think some of it is just having the conversation so that people can understand what the experience, what the, I hate to say this way, what the experience of being, let's say, you know, a black person, the outdoors or black person in certain circumstances can be like, because humans as a rule, we tend to think that whatever we're experiencing is what other people experience. That's kind of where we're wired. And unless we can really understand someone else's experience in some way, it's always a little, you know, out of reach. I'll never forget.

Talking to one of my friends last morning coaches, I got named James Davis, who's a former world champion, 400 by 400 meter runner. James is very interesting guy. James is a very dark slick skin black guy whose resting face is I'm going to kill you. And his smiling face is male model.

This guy's gorgeous. And he's married to a white woman. And he, and I said, what's the most difficult thing about, you know, being a black athlete or being black in Colorado where there's just not a big country. And he says, my biggest fear in life.

I'm one of the fastest men in the world. My biggest fear in life is that my wife will leave her handbag in a store. I will find it, pick it up and run to give it back to her. And he says, you know, I'm perpetually aware that I can't move quickly around certain kinds of people.

And that hit me so visceral to have to have that kind of self monitoring awareness and to have to limit who you are in that way. I mean, again, that just makes me want to cry, but it really woke up some idea in my mind that I just didn't exist before. Or I mean, the joke really had two black friends in Boulder and my joke about Boulder, who I have a few. One is it's a very diverse area.

There's every different kind of white person. There's rich white people, really rich white people and super rich white people. But the other is, you know, there's more actual Africans than African Americans, which is, I don't know if it's actually true, but there's a big African community here. But I had two friends who, black guys who had dreads, they were nothing alike in any other way.

One was celibate. The other had slept with everyone in Boulder. And maybe not everyone, but you know, a lot of them. And one day the cell that one is walking downtown in Pearl Street and a woman walks up and slaps him.

And his response was, it's the other one. I said to him one day, we said, what's the most difficult thing up being black and Boulder? He goes, oh, I have to drive the south then or to get a haircut. And like little things like that, you know, just wake you up to an idea that you just never had in your brain that just explains these little things explain so much.

And I think that, you know, because we all feel different in some way. But until we understand how each how we feel different, it's all just a little ephemeral. It just doesn't feel real. And then you do.