Tubular Labs, powered by Sharp-Eats, is a leader in global social video intelligence and measurement, providing a unified view of the passions and behaviours of audiences across YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, Twitch and more. With the largest social video database covering more than 15 billion videos and 45 million creators, Tubular helps household-name brands, leading agencies and the largest media properties grow their business and lead on social by anticipating trending content new creators and what's next in culture. For more info, visit tubularlabs.com. Hi, I'm Justin Crosby and welcome to this week's Telecast.
On this week's show, my guest are Fraser Ayers, award-winning actor, writer, director, as well as CEO and founder of the Triforce Creative Network. And Yasmin Hai, author, broadcaster and head of factual at Red Bicycle Productions. They're coming right up on this week's Telecast. Guys, welcome to Telecast.
Great to have you here. Bye. Hey man, I'd love you to be here. Thank you for joining me as we start the sort of hurtling towards Christmas and all the various other sort of things that go on at this time of year.
It's still getting very hectic. Fraser, let's start with you. We usually start the show having a bit of a whistle-stop tour through our guest's careers and how they ended up where they are now. So give us a bit of a bit of your backstory.
Tell us about how you got into TV, through was it through acting, writing or directing? Tell us your story. Basically, I'm a really chippy working-class boy for the moment, Lisa State and Lisa. And at the age of seven back in the 80s, I told my mom I wanted to be an actor.
And it was just me and mom and we didn't know anyone, had no connection to the industry, anything like that. And so that journey was from there, became an actor, was very fortunate to get to do that really. And then through the acting, you know, you realize that you're not just an actor, but you're a storyteller and actually wants to tell stories about later the writing and that led to the directing. And then eventually that led to the producing.
And so with the Trifles Creative Network, we've been operating for this actually our 20th year anniversary of operating. And we have been part of the diversity and inclusion landscape for 20 years, making sure people get the jobs and our industry. It's just a little bit more inclusive. And so part of that one is Dandy, which is the recruitment side.
And then the other side is the production company. I am showrunner executive producer, write the theme tunes, sing the theme tunes and all those kind of things alongside with my wife, Minnie Ayers and our business partner, Jimmy Acombola. So the organization has all of those kind of different arms to it. And I think coming from that background, it was always about forward movement constantly.
You never know when the skims coming to get you. So you're always kind of pushing it forward. And so that's why there's those different bits of it. And now I'm the executive producer of Sorry I Didn't Know and it's showrunner and it's creator on my wife.
And that is airing currently on ITV. For our international viewers and listeners, there's about the show. It came about in Black History Month with a conversation with the commissioners, if you vary. And we wanted to portray Black Stories in a way that wasn't about the trauma and oppression that usually associated with Black Stories of History.
It was about how do we tell these stories of celebration with joy? How do we talk about our kings, our pioneers, our inventors, those kind of things, as well as those stories that are really, really important to tell that are less known, which he has me as an expert and as well. And so having that conversation, it was about how do you frame that? I'm a big firm believer of a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down.
So I wanted to frame Black History, but in a comedy panel show rather than kind of through a documentary lens or those things. So they could bring that joy and that celebration and then frame it in that way that was totally inclusive to white audiences, black audiences as all, which is sorry, I didn't know because none of us really know about Black History and how it's told in the lack of it in curriculums, et cetera, et cetera. So that came about as a real reaction to what's the kind of work that we as a community want to start seeing on our screens. Currently, ITV are making some very interesting decisions, but at the same time, they made that decision to make that show.
And this year is the first year we're actually outside of Black History Month and just part of regular scheduling. And Black History Month, again, for international viewers, this happens in October. Yeah. And in America, it's in February.
It's on the other side. It'd be interesting to find out if there's any other countries in Europe that run a similar celebration, if you like, an educational program over a month of the around Black History. There's a lot of it actually across Europe. Britain's kind of a bit of a forerunner in that.
And when you look to the European countries, there isn't a natural for a lot of that. And it's something that's not celebrated in SA Africa, because I think that is the continent and it's not celebrated in other places. But Canada, America, us, and then one or two kind of pockets do it. And I guess that's part of the conversation we're going to have today is about that conversation and how widespread it is and how widespread it should be, maybe.
In terms of your career development and you're very much focused on diversity and leveling the playing field, if you like, and giving young Black kids the opportunities that you perhaps didn't have. It's not just Black kids with me actually, just to clarify that. I am fully inclusive and our organization is about underrepresented voices and groups. So disabled community, LGBTQ, basically anyone who isn't that 50 or a posh white guy is underrepresented in our industry, gender disparity.
And so again, our organization isn't Black focused. We mix race, Jimmy's Black, I mean, he's white, through those things, it's not just focused on Black people, because actually those issues of underrepresentation affect across the board, even though the Black community may be more impacted than others. Just thinking about, you know, when you were a kid in Leicester and you were wanting to be an actor then, and you didn't really have any connections, was that relatively easy thing to break into acting and build a career within TV? No, it was really, really hard.
So my mum would work the market, and I would work the market with my mum as a very young kid, Leicester Market, and car boots to generate the money. Like, to go to an audition was astronomical money from someone who was on benefits and trying to do market life, just me and her, the access of information. So this is pre-internet as well. And so that's a part of the conversation where I literally at the age of seven, on the estate, said to my mum, I want to be an actor, I want to be part of this hallowed industry.
Like, how? There's no internet, you can't just Google how to become an actor. It was really, really, really hard. And finding out the drama schools and which goals did this, and it was incredibly difficult and challenging.
And then you get to the realities of our industry itself, and the obstacles that exist for a working class person, you know, opportunity, poverty, etc, etc, and you get to this industry, and there are more closed doors than open ones in every kind of sector, and certainly from the bottom all the way to the top. So it was a bit of a kind of experience of like bashing down doors, knocking them down, kind of traversing type. And again, we're talking about the causes that there weren't many actors that looked like me in the 90s. So you had like the identity and racial elements of it, and that obstacle for 10 years, I was too dark.
And then another 10 years, I was too light. So you have all of those things that come in, and that's literally why I set up try forcing 2003, because even in 2003, the opportunities that I had, there was a local theatre that I said, Hey, market, I could join the local theatre group. I could be in a play. I could start that journey.
That stuff didn't even exist. And it kind of doesn't now in 2003. And so those obstacles that I've faced, I wanted other people not to have to have those obstacles. We'll come and talk a little bit further about that in a second.
Yasmin, welcome to the show. Great to have you on. St. Crassen, for you really, tell us about your background and give us a sort of a pop career history.
I mean, essentially journalism, I suppose. Was that your way into TV originally? So basically, from a very young age, I've always known I was going to be a journalist, but the environment I grew up in. I mean, basically, I just knew that's what I wanted to be.
I did not know anyone in this world. And I just remember sort of in a way, this all worked in my favour, I think. I've been around for about many 30 years or so in journalism. So I was at university and I just thought, all right, okay, what do I do?
How do I do? I knew people who knew whose parents were in television, this and that, but because that's not how I saw my route. I just basically pick up the yellow pages one day. Do you run the other pages?
Went down production companies and rang every single production company. And I just knew that basically they're all going to put the phone down me. I just thought, whatever, just hold your nerve, just hold your nerve. At some point, you're going to get through.
I just kept timing. It was like 45 minutes and they were all putting the phone down. Then I just happened to be on i and called this company and I just said, yeah, I want to be a researcher. And then they said, well, actually, they were looking only for TV presenters.
And I said, oh, yeah, I can do that. And they said, oh, can you? And I said, yeah. And then I was asked for an audition.
And then I ended up presenting a program, ITV Music Program. And the reason why I say this was I think if I'd known about the landscape and how it operates and works, I would be way too intimidated to have even tried to break through. So basically, I'm in television now. I also know that I want to go into journalism and using current affairs and that helped.
I felt a show real whatever got experienced and then I gave a job at News Night. So now I'm in the business. And you know, people like me are kind of slightly being sought after because it's good to have someone of color or whatever in this world. However, you've got to have the sensibility and your cultural reference points and everything has to be white.
And this is, and we haven't talked about yet how, just like, you know, you come into a newsroom, what ideas do you have, what ideas do you have, what actually Northern Ireland is going to be taught, because that is what everyone in the newsroom, because they're all the same newspapers, all come from the same families. This is the culture and this is kind of what's considered a good story. So sorry, which I might think is interesting. I would have to fight for it.
So anyway, you kind of fight for it. Then you're in the end, you just think this is way too much. You can't be spending all your time fighting for stories. You find yourself sort of kind of taking on their values and your their sensibilities and trying to work.
So basically, then I spent a lot of time sort of navigating that world, going from news to current affairs, then to documentaries, then to history. And I think I by the end of it, I think I've really, really battered and I felt like it was always a fight. And then 9-11 happened. And I'd been brought up in a working class Muslim community.
And basically, I remember to put in all these stories about Muslims and I remember thinking one day, oh my God, they're talking about my community. But in my head, it was a bit like, there is a world of television where you talk about these issues, which is so deep all the reality of what you live. And I suddenly thought, I need to talk about the people I was talking about, because I grown up with people that are clubbing, going to the pubs, and then they'd all become Islamic in the space of a year. And I was really interested, you know, because basically I lost a lot of my friends during this period.
I was really interested in what had happened to them psychologically or socially that made them do that twist. And from then, that's when I decided I was on a right. And I kind of went into the writing world and that opened up whole thing. I got a column in the garden and then I went down the writing route.
And every now and then, I dip back into television. I do these films. I always, I must admit, I never find it a kind of an enriching experience. I enjoy the kind of intellectual process I'm making the programme.
And I find the industry, find it really kind of buttering. But that's my problem, because you know, it's everyone's problem, but it's also, I just feel a bit tied out. I feel like, you know, nothing really changed in the last 30 years when I started out, I was multi-culture everyone wanted someone like me, but they want a certain version of you. And to break through that, it takes a lot of people, you need people around you, a collaboration and you need support to get to that place.
So, and in terms of Britain and humans, so basically in the D-Firmahamity was a presente, and a friend of mine, she was a novelist. Her take on historical fiction was quite unique. And I thought there must be something which we can do with that. She'd be nominated for book of eyes.
And I just, I kind of pulled up with Channel 4, you know, with their interests, and then they were, because they were looking for historians, kind of black women or someone who could kind of share the different light. And I think they were very interested. We did even come up with the idea of human zoos, which I remember thinking, oh my god, this is so depressing. It's a complete little TV.
I don't want to be doing. However, you know, it can be right on the images, I just thought they're all being shackles and, you know, these really depressing stories. But once you started looking into it, this whole world opened up of showbiz and entertainment, and if you were white, your grandparent would have definitely gone to one of these human zoos in this country. It was a huge thing.
And yet, and no one talks about it. And it's like, you know, Bradford, whole park was taken over, a human character was a card, a gluten, wherever. And you know, it was like, I think what, well, I know we'll talk about all this, but I think having a real resources to dig into these stories meant that these stories came out. And you know, I think that often we don't have the time and the resources and the support thing to dig into these stories.
We're going to come back and talk a little bit about the show in a second. Your background is really interesting because you actually went straight into TV because my assumption was that you were a journalist that has more recently moved into TV. So what about the barriers as an Asian woman to getting into TV presenting? I mean, you talked about the challenges you first had.
And I detected a little bit when you said that you're a bit tired of TV. Is that because of the barriers that you're always trying to push down in terms of what you want to achieve? Or is it do you prefer just to work with a written word and dip in and dip out? What's...
It's very political why I went into this whole thing. You know, I wanted to change things. It's easy for me, especially my younger to break in. You know, young Asian woman, you look apart, you can play that game and you can always...
I've always found opportunities. It's once you're inside and you want to change things. That's when the problems happen. And I mean, I worked on the best present in a news presenters, news anchors.
I was telling... I was missing television for about 20 years. I was going to commission me. And you know, so that was my...
Well, I just began to feel that I needed my voice and my voice was best done through writing. I never thought of becoming a writer. I didn't want to be a journalist to be honest. It was just...
It was always television was my media. I think visually. And so this is all secondary. That's the only way to get...
No one's going to dilute my voice. I was going to edit my voice. It's that that's why I've chosen this field. It's a great industry.
You meet people, it's sort of whatever, but I think it's changed slow. And ultimately, I kind of sort of came into my own into television and time when ratings were, when it was all about ratings and the whole kind of re-view and kind of public service remit has disappeared. So, programs that I want to make don't rate. We'll never rate.
You know, you'll never get the viewers. So it's about trying to find a form out of a template. And that requires kind of a sort of... I think that's been an ongoing...
No, I think someone might make it always get in is about what happens once you're inside. That's the hard bit. Fraser, coming back to you. So tell us more about Triforce then.
You've obviously got an entrepreneurial mindset and you're trying to help a vast range of people to get on in TV. You've been running Triforce for what? 20 years or so? 20 years now.
Yeah, 20 years. Right. Funny enough, you know, I think we need to go for a drink after this. Yes.
I mean, I think we've got a lot to talk about actually. And that's where Triforce came from is that frustration. Even at that time, I was just an actor and I looked around and even... You know, this is a lot of scale in our industry.
And so, as an actor, you know, the top that you see is kind of an executive producer now and again on set who wanders down. But even at that level, I was looking at the cruise. I was looking at actors, even that access. And that, Yasmin said, when I set that up, I look backwards and the real McCoy and the posse and the work that Philip Headley did it, the World's Strength for the East or Judith Jacob was doing throughout the 70s and 80s.
Like, I saw, you know, we were on the backs of giants quite frankly. But I'd seen that they'd gone through those cycles, the same cycles where it sounded like, look, look, look. And then it kind of received some receipts. And so Triforce was like, okay, how do we stop that from happening?
So in the moment, we have 27,000 crew on our internal database, across the UK with the largest recruitment service in the UK. And that is made up from everybody, you know, private school, public school, no school, Black, white age, it's across the board, fully inclusive. And when you see that kind of number of people, those people won't be allowed into the industry back then. And it really was a different time.
And the volume I had a big issue with and how our industry goes, like, you're the Black one or you're the Asian woman. And they pick one and then no one else is allowed anything. And usually that person is in person is in that position if they told the line, which is also another quite big conversation. But you see how nepotism works in our industry.
And it all comes down to you, you've got in your Black book. And if you're from a particular group of people, you're only going to have that same group of people. So Triforce was about literally changing people's Black books. And we started with club nights.
So what we would do is we would get a bunch of Black actors, disabled actors, underrepresented actors together in a club. Now, our industry gets very intimidated by more than two Black people in a room. That's just the way the company works. So that was also a barrier is casting directors didn't really want to engage that way.
They liked the kind of drip feed through it. So we did these nights where we get all the actors together and get casting directors and producers absolutely smashed, destroyed, absolutely drunk. And that really leveled. Because you don't, you just, you may, you just, you may, like an old chain, actors who didn't have agents were getting jobs, people were coming together, writing projects together.
And you started to be able to break down those nepotistic barriers through creating a what is basically what our organization is now a safe space where everyone can be there. People can make mistakes. They can say the wrong things. They can do the right things if they want to, but you give everybody the opportunity to be safe in that environment.
And from then we went into script readings and started to promote people's work. And then we did monologue slam across the UK. And we were in seven cities across the UK, completely free to actors. Again, being my own journey quite chippy, what do actors need?
And it was kind of like they need to be in front of casting directors for free. They need to have a platform and perform live. They also need to practice in auditions and all that. So I created the monologue slam and we were in seven cities and also in LA.
And that was a route for thousands of actors to come through and fundamentally shifted on-screen representation, not country. Because all of a sudden casting directors had access to literally hundreds of actors that they would never have access to because they weren't part of the final year showcase. So that really fundamentally shifted things. And it was fantastic.
But since COVID hit, you find that pathway for actors has been completely decimated. And then there's been the issues of, this isn't a theatre show, but there's been issues in the arts world, so we should say, along those lines. And so that pathway is completely gone again now. So you have this thing that kind of ran for 10 years, made fundamental changes to everybody, but then it can stop.
And as you asked me, we're saying, these cycles do happen. And we find ourselves in the most inclusive time ever, up until very recently. I mean, we've been inundated and of those 27,000 crew of vast majority of working has been incredible in a way that has never happened before. But now that's completely tightened up again.
And the issues around inclusion and access. Why people have got tired of being called racist quite frankly. Congratulations for seeing a way to break down those barriers, which is the really unique approach to it. And clearly, it worked.
Playing devil's advocate for a second, a lot of the broadcasters have made big pronouncements of inclusivity within productions, both on-screen and behind your screen as well. Surely that is going to help you, isn't it? I mean, aren't those quotas helping you when it comes to diversity? And many of those 27,000 people on your books, haven't they got more opportunity now than ever before?
Absolutely. Absolutely. The nexus point literally was COVID and the tragic murder of George Roy. That was the nexus point.
And the 15 years up until that point, we've achieved more in the last five years than even that previous 15 years in terms of volume. The Americans changed their mind. Things came down and things always come down the top. And they usually come from that side in terms of the money, even if it's not the direct money, the pot of money.
And things fundamentally shifting. For the first time, our door was being banged down. The BBC were banging down our doors and production companies were coming to us going, Hey, what have you been doing this thing? And you've been kicking off in broadcast about, yeah, let's sort this out.
And so it has been a golden age of inclusion. It absolutely has. However, that was up until literally this February, when the I'm going to trouble the industry's crumbled. Is that what you're going to say?
A lot of people have said that to me. I was going to say the lies of all broadcasters have led to that, to be honest, like when that was felt, they knew. So I did an article back in 2019 for broadcast predicting this exact moment. If an idiot boy here knows it's coming, they all knew it was coming.
And there was a choice to be made about this great thing, which is not to do with the strikes. That's about production and people working, which is important. But that's not why production companies are literally going to the wall now. That's about the ad revenue spending primarily.
And we all knew that this was going to happen because, and I can talk back to diversity, broadcasters have not been serving their audiences by making work that's diverse. I don't mean black. I don't mean more female. I don't mean more diverse.
There are more audiences not going to these other sources. Netflix should never exist. It was a DVD distribution company. And we allowed it to exist.
So this thing that's happening now, when the ad revenue were going to go, why would I spend a million there when I spend a million on TikTok and everyone sees it? We knew that this was coming. Unfortunately, our leaders didn't safeguard. Devil's Advocate for a second.
And we'll come back to Yasmin. What's there a time, though, immediately following COVID, when there was a huge rush of production in the UK and freelancers, we've heard stories on telecast before about freelancers leaving productions when Netflix came in and offered them three times their salary to jump off their production, go on to another, because Netflix was desperate and would spend anything they could to get their production done. We saw that live happen. It was the freelancer literally.
It was the fantastic time for freelancers. It was a boom market. And it's cyclical. It's never going to always be like that.
We looked at the golden age of scripted. Now we're looking at the other end of that now. We knew it was coming and everybody made hay while the sun shines. We know what the outlook is for, I think, for more linear TV production, there's going to be a lot less of it.
And it's not going to come back the way it was. Certainly not the way it was pre-COVID. So what does that mean for diversity and inclusion? Clearly, there's a smaller pot altogether.
It needed to take a backseat for other priorities, because and this is the thing, literally, that production companies are going to the wall. I can name six of which I'm not going to. I can name six production companies who are simply not paying their bills, because it's the only way they can keep alive right now. They can't pay the bills and they're talking to their landlords and it's a really difficult time.
So this kind of idea, the soft arts of inclusion, if you like, yes, it does take a step back. And this is funny enough when I start doing my articles going, this is the time when you need to push forward into inclusion. You need to start going into the global majority, re-winning audiences. Like, you can't solve this problem by having smaller than mission audiences.
You need to serve more people. And how do you do that? By being more inclusive, by being more diverse. And I mean, that diverse in the truest sense of the word, fully across the board.
My nan still needs to watch something. My nephew still needs to watch something like do something, because this kind of downward spiral, which has been happening for a little while now, and now is really caught up. It can only end in a production hub country. Do you not think the next step, the next level is there's huge amounts of freelancers out of work, as you say, a lot of production companies are going to the wall and probably won't be existing in six months time.
Those are the stories they never get pressed for, you only find out six months after the event that's happened. If you're not looking on companies homes for the top in D's and top hundred in D companies, but anyway, that's if you got lots of time in your hands, you can probably do that. But with that much labor still out there, with the diversity quotas that a lot of the broadcasters have, then isn't this a time then for breaking that production company model in some way then? Is that not a time nor for freelancers who've got the skills and the production skills to start maybe creating content for themselves and for their own platforms or all the social platforms you mentioned TikTok, and we've seen lots of businesses self publishing and self commissioning.
Absolutely. For those that want to pivot or those new coming in, we're seeing the way things are, I'm going, hang on, this is how I survived in this world. Absolutely. But in the meantime, you have a lot of what is in play and how they operate with medium hand buildings and 40 people behind the desk and that whole thing that is currently in play.
So yes, the next bit is exciting, it's free, it goes back to independent, there's lots of energy and excitement around that. But in terms of what our industry is at the moment, it's really bad. And like I say, you're kind of alluding to with the labor, there are 26,000 people out of work right now. That's mortgage stuff, man, that's rent, that's baby food, that's real real stuff.
And it's not a million pound bonus and all 120k, that's not those people that we're talking about who have kind of still get their jobs and have let this happen. We're not talking about that, we're talking about gaffos and grips and out of work, right? That is the thing that I really feel for. And so I see what's going to come next and that's really exciting.
But right now, there is literally tens of thousands of people who are still being told everything's okay as well. That's the thing I have an issue with. So in a word for a sir, 2024, so it can be better or worse than the TV production sector. Want to get ahead in digital first content?
The drop is the go to newsletter for industry professionals delivering insider news, trends and insights straight to your inbox, navigate the fast changing landscape of digital first production, distribution and monetization. Sign up now for free at drop media dot co dot uk and stay in form with the drop. For who? Like for who?
That's 2024. It's for who. There's going to be a lot of money made by some people. And I think there's going to be some very difficult times for the vast majority.
Yasmin, so coming back to you, I can understand why you're not dipping into your editing in an interview really now following the ball of phrases. Well, a lot of people listening to this will resonate with them. The self publishing opportunities out there, as you say, you want your voice to be heard. And this is really pop view.
And that's why you're focused on writing to the Guardian and other publications to make sure your voice gets heard. Isn't there an opportunity now for you with the platforms that are existing out there to start making your own content and building that? Because presumably you know that there are audiences out there who are being underserved. You know who they are.
You know what sort of content that they want to consume. You know what sort of stories you want to tell? Is that the next step for you? Of course.
But basically, I'm a product of the television world. I want those big budgets to make the kind of films and projects that I'm interested in making, which I feel might find an audience. I think the problem with all this is that is a difficult time. But the truth is, OK, if you want diverse cast or diverse production maker, it's expensive.
And it's expensive at the moment because it is coming from working within the kind of the big, I've worked for pretty much all the major production companies in this country. It's expensive because often they don't have the same experience and they don't have the same kind of sort of the know-how. And they have to be taught those skills. So for example, like we wanted in the last project to get a black editor to edit our film.
There's no one around. There's barely anyone around. And there's no one around who can maybe deliver in six, seven weeks. Say that was the production set of editing, said, well, six, seven, eight weeks, you've got to be incredibly experienced.
You should have made loads of these sort of films in the past to be able to get a job like this and then cut a film like this. You might be more comfortable with a 10, 11 weeks schedule, which by the way, it's not generous. It's still, it's what it used to be when you have to do hours and BBC or channel four. But now because of the budgets have been reduced, it's not easy to find that editor who's from customer diverse background, who's got all this experience, who's been given all these opportunities over the years for them to then be put onto a project like this.
So unfortunately, with this whole kind of diverse thing, it's not just a commitment to like everyone wants a diverse thing. It also means putting resources. That's why people are kind of sort of shying away from it. And just kind of coincidentally, when I was doing a bit of research on another story today, I don't know why they're because of the, my thing, I picked up, I was looking at black history.
I came across this article and I don't know the journalism is true. Okay. So, but it did say that more white people have benefited from black history more this year than black people. Okay.
And I don't know that's true. And I could be complete. And it wasn't like a lot of the production companies were not kind of black production companies or whatever. So I think that when they're so kind of budgets, you kind of, if you're committing editor, which if I was in that position, I'd be looking something interesting.
I also be looking for reliability. At the end of the day, I was going to go bang for those who all by pushing a program and he wasn't delivered. So I'd be looking for people who could, you know, be reliable. And so I think people do, but very in these difficult times, two things, companies which are just more standard and more conventional and can deliver and those.
And that might not be at the moment, all they've come in flux that people came in in the last four, three, four years, it might not be them. I think we've been caught in a terrible place. But I also do feel that people are getting for, I mean, you know, by government television was I'm still thinking quite dimensionally, but in terms of sort of, yeah, I could go and do a podcast. I could go and do a tick off whatever.
But you know, it's not me. It's a generational thing. So yeah, but I mean, my kids, I've thus told you their world and that's, you know, when I want to find out about what's going to happen, I'll speak to them about it. So there are those outlets, but why should this world be closed off to us?
I don't think that it should be either or, you know, people are interested in this world. They should be, I think we need to create a better environment to bring these people along, because they, you know, most of them will get bored and move on. I mean, I'm actually working in television drama now. I have got another way of making this work, but that only came out because I had a voice now they want that voice.
So I may, I'm making it work for me, but it's easier for me to get my own work off the ground than if for me to be a producer on a film about sort of the European Union or whatever. If I have a take on it, then I'm on it. Yeah, of course it's an avenue, but I still, I think I want the bigger kind of budget program. How are you looking at 2024, then?
Yes, I mean, in terms of your TV projects, are you hopeful? Are you optimistic? Are you more on these sort of pessimistic real estate? I'm not pessimistic.
In terms of making a kind of current affairs program or something, I can make it happen. I'd have to do the journalism when I find a story and I could make it happen and get a commission. That's not wrong. But that comes out of many, many years.
So many years behind me, I can identify a quick story. I know how to do it in a day, you know, find people and access and how to access. But that's because I've been given those opportunities. So it's fine for me, but in terms of getting those stories, commission, I think if a story of color, whatever, I think will be difficult.
I don't think it's an easy market to sell those stories. But then everyone is a very competitive market. You're looking for stories of the lowest common denominators that you have, kind of wide access. I think that's where I have to gear if I'm going to, that's what we're going to be looking at.
In terms of our company, Red Bicycle, we do podcasts, we do a lot of podcasts here. So it's kind of international. But it's not a great time. But if you're talking about time, the diversity, I think it's going to be a tougher time to come.
It's going to be a hard time. And you mentioned your show Britain's Human Tuts early on. Can you just touch on it? Can you just talk a little bit more about that and where our viewers and listeners can see that?
I think you can get on the channel for website now. It's there. And I think there was a lot of coverage about this on the story. It's one of those stories which I really didn't think there was going to be much there and then a whole world exploded.
And there were so many stories which didn't make it in the end into the film. And I think what for me would be really satisfying is in the long term, if you see a drama or if you talk about Victorian England, that is a part of the tapestry of Victorian England that actually is not going to a musical show. They might be going to a human zoo. And that for me would be normalizing.
Really interesting that is to be back into the way we look at Victorian England. That for me would be successful. But otherwise it's available on board digital. And we're trying to do what we've been asked to look up, develop more ideas when a diva.
They're very keen on her channel for. So it's about trying to find projects which work. But it's hard. I mean, it's hard because we don't want to always do niche stories.
And she's actually a medieval historian from Oxford. So she's got this other kind of background. So it's something we're going to have to tap into and find a way to make that work. And it's just a surprising voice herself.
So, it's going to be hard. It's going to be easy. And now it's time for Story of the Week. Where my guests get to nominate their favorite TV industry story of the past seven days.
Fraser, what's your story of the week? It's quite my favorite story of the week. That seems not my favorite story. But the cancellation of doctors is my story of the week.
So the BBC in their infinite wisdom decided that doctors is to be cancelled after 23 years, I think it is. My wife was actually in the pilot. My wife was in the pilot of it. They did it at Pebble Mill, isn't it?
And the reason I bring up this story is it certainly speaks to what's happening in our industry at the moment in terms of that clearing out, that shifting, that pivoting and that changing. But doctors was also my first TV writing gig. I have literally benefited from the part they bang the drum about it, how it's a pathway for people to open doors. And I've seen over the years, everyone knows any Red Main and all these crazy actors that were in it.
But through Peter Lloyd and the editors there, some curtists, there are pathways in place on that production that don't exist on any of the production. In a way that they kind of old school, like the casualty in the bills, that kind of pathway stuff. But doctors maintain that. And so many people cut their teeth on that as directors, as writers, just on production.
There is a space for learning in there that doesn't exist in literally every other production that's all about money and time and the clash of them both. And so I'm really sad that that's gone. BBC have said that they're going to commit to the area and put more money in to kind of Birmingham. We will see as talks of another series coming down the line.
But maybe that conversation about it's time for something new. And I understand that. But my concern is, and as we've been talking about, what turns out to happen is that we don't tend to improve on what was there. We tend to like bin what was there and then try and start again.
And my concern is this conversation about access, which is about inclusion, which is about working class people, which is about the people of Birmingham. My concern is that those things aren't going to be in place in a way that doctors have had them for 23 years already. So yeah, that's my unfortunate story of the week that one. It's interesting.
Just, you know, many people just look at this as a canceling of a long running TV show. But then you realize actually, what else, how many people? Thousands of people, the infrastructure and the pathways into our industry for 20 years. And that's all going to be gone.
Because I'm a writer on it. You're talking about 200 people who are now not writing for doctors, and they're the people that were writing. And they're regional writers. And they haven't got those relationships with production companies saying I'm the high-end drama TV because they've been doing the daytime TV.
And in our industry, the perception of the difference between those two things is awful. Because it's not true story, story and script is script. I'm sorry, it just is. I know that as a show.
And the truth is that you have 200 people there that will make excellent script editors, would make excellent high-end TV, will make excellent et cetera, et cetera. But because of the perception that they wrote on doctors, they're not going to get those opportunities. So again, you kind of have this 200 people bag of incredible talent in the Midlands that our industry possibly isn't going to do anything weird, really. And that's the bits that I find sad about that story, really.
All right, that's the passing of doctors. Yasmin, what about you? What's your story of the week? I'm celebrity, get me out of here, Nigel Farage.
He's not that object to Nigel Farage being on it. He's whatever his political views are. I think my problem is I've seen this in television in the last 15, 20, 10 years is when you have these controversial kind of often far-right people on your programs, the producers pat themselves on the back. They do feel like they're doing something quite risque.
And it's going to be very controversial and drive up the ratings. However, what they don't have is often the presenter, especially news that they're presenting or there isn't anyone to rebut. There isn't enough of a way of especially in the environment like this. And I don't know whether anyone's going to be able to take Nigel Farage on successfully.
And at the moment, when you read the kind of cuttings about it, it sort of says, Fred, a guy who presents first dates, he once wrote, he's got problems with Farage. So they're now looking to Fred from first dates to take him on. And they've got this one black woman who's a Nella Rose who's an influencer. They're kind of quite keen.
And maybe she might take him on. But I mean, what a pressure on this poor woman. Okay, that she's the one who's going to have to now. This guy is brilliant.
That's sort of his API. He's charmed people. He's gone through this very clever. He knows how to play it.
It's an extraordinary politician, whether you agree with him or not. Right. I mean, he's convinced a whole nation without having a party or a paper or without being an MP, right? So he's changed the nation.
I don't mind him being on the programme, but there's got to be someone who can take him on and be kind of, and I can't see anyone in that environment who's going to do that. And again, the programme will go out. People will really like him go, you know, make excuses for him. And there is a non-bromification for people like that go on there for people like me.
It just is, you know, there is hostility. There is kind of, and that's, I don't know, I suppose I've just seen it so many times where people feel the producer, really pleased with themselves. And then the programme goes out and no one's been able to challenge them quite a bit. But let's see.
I suppose this is the when it comes to the commercial aspect of TV, right? £1.5 million, Nigel Farage has reportedly been paid, which is five times as much as the health secretary who was in last year. I forgot his name. Thank you.
Thank you. And everybody was loving seeing him eating bugs and all the rest of it as a slight punishment. But it doesn't seem to have buffed his career up. He trousers 300 grand, and that was kind of about it, really.
It wasn't it. I don't think we think about him in any different way. No, he said, I'd put for Arjan. If I was commissioning, I'd put for Arjan.
But I would also make sure that there was someone in there, and it doesn't fall too personal colour, I'd be taking on. Or there was some mechanism, some way of doing that. Because, you know, you're right. I don't think anyone's going to change their mind.
But he will, in terms of the debate that I'm in the great, I think he might win a lot more people over before he went in. You never know. James O'Brien parachuted into the jungle. He might be able to stand up to him.
You know, let's have a bit of balance. Now it's time for Hero of the Week and Get in the Binyazmin. Who's your Hero of the Week? I'm guessing it's not for us.
I just don't have any Heroes at the moment. I mean, I feel so, I mean, God, I find it sound grim, but everything that's going on in the Middle East, I spend a lot of time there doing a lot of programs that I just find it very grim. However, I know it's not meant to be content-themed, but I was kind of taken with, there's a story I read today, some of Alice Ball, who's influenced a marketing strategist, and she's actually combing through TikTok and exposing all the people who are getting paid by corporates and brands, and who don't flag up that they are being paid. And she's now calling that out, which I think is quite brave.
And she's basically insisting that, if you're going to be promoting things, they need to declare it, which you should do anyway, which is done in social media, you can get away with it. So I think that's kind of, I thought that's quite interesting. I'd say she's not heroin, but kind of down the road. Yeah, yeah, well it's a murky area, isn't it?
But I think a lot of the social media giants would say, you know, you have to, you do have to declare it, right? Whether it's a button that you click or you actually, you know, and I think all of them have the ability to do that, whether or not people do it, or it's very difficult to regulate, of course. Fraser, how about you? Who's your Hero of the Week?
Yeah, I stretch for this one as well, myself at the moment. I really did. My Hero of the Week is Jim John Lewis, Commissioner, who got us out of Black History Month. She's literally fought for four years and literally, and this is the interesting thing.
She's fought for four years to get us out of Black History Month. Within the broadcast that supporting us, she's been fantastic. Our show goes on out after I'm a celebrity of here. So you have, you have, no, exactly.
And so you got all that, excellent. You're going to get the inherited audience. We now get the inherited audience of racism. Brilliant.
So you get the people who have tuned in for that guy, now tune in. And the next thing they see is a whole Black entirely show. So am I getting the bin for this week? Is everyone involved in that decision to let that man on our screen?
Yeah, that's brilliant. Right. And Yasmin, what about your, who's going in your bin? I think I'll be lifted, the producers, off this very ground, the fraud, thing.
But otherwise, there'll be lots of people in the Middle East and whatever, but I won't go into that one. Yeah. Yasmin, Fraser, it's been brilliant chatting with you. We could go on for a lot longer.
I'm sure there's lots of things that we can keep talking about and lots of opinions, which is great. We love that about the show, everybody having great opinions and expertise, which both of you have. So thank you so much for joining me. And good luck with 2024 and everything as we go into it.
Thank you for joining me and we'll see you soon. Thank you. Bye. Well, that's it for another week show.
As always, thanks a lot for listening. Telecast is edited by Ian Chambers. Until next week, stay safe.