Tubular Labs, powered by Sharp-Eats, is a leader in global social video intelligence and measurement, providing a unified view of the passions and behaviours of audiences across YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, Twitch and more. With the largest social video database covering more than 15 billion videos and 45 million creators, Tubular helps household name brands, leading agencies and the largest media properties grow their business and lead on social by anticipating trending content new creators and what's next in culture. For more info, visit tubularlabs.com Telecast Hi, I'm Justin Crossby and welcome to another Telecast. Now and again, we record interviews with execs that we hold onto and play out on the show a few weeks later.
And that's the case this week as we rewind to Mia in Rome, where I met executive producer Kiyara Messineo from Raw and also back to Mipcon, where I had a quick chat with Danny Fenton from 6L Productions. First up, here's Kiyara. How are you doing Kiyara? Hey, hi, Justin, I'm doing really well.
It's a great, great day, the sun is shining and I couldn't think of a better place to be. Yeah, makes it all more pleasant to come to industry events, doesn't it? Oh my God, yeah. Yes, especially when you're coming from London.
That's right. Yes, where Autumn has definitely started. And I come from Sicily originally, even though I've lived in England for nearly 30 years. And I have to say that even though I love London and I wouldn't live anywhere else, I really miss the sun.
This level of sunshine is like my average level that I function best at. So thank you for agreeing to have a chat. So you're an executive producer and director who's worked on lots of premium factual shows for Raw. Tell us about a few of those and what you think your specialty has become, because a lot of them have got a UK and Italian mix and flavour.
So tell us a little bit about that. Yeah, I started working with Raw about five years ago because they were looking for somebody to develop the CNN programme that went on to be searching for Italy for Stanley Tucci. They obviously were looking at somebody who had an expertise in travel logs in Italy. I have done a lot of travel logs, even though I wouldn't say, I mean, it's not exclusively what I've done in the past because I've done a lot of spatula-s, spatula stuff and food and culture related and art stuff.
But when I started working with Raw, it wasn't for you to develop that series. And it was a fantastic experience. And we worked together for several months to create what went on to be a really extremely successful series that is now on the BBC and has won multiple Emmys. And for me, I was part of the very first series.
And for me, really, like establishing a new way of looking at Italy through the gateway of food with a fantastic host like Stanley. It was a great, great challenge. We wanted to create a sort of new language and I think we succeeded in doing that. It was a great time for me also to experiment with a different way of making things.
Because I spent nearly all of my career making things sort of on behalf of English people or American people in Italy being Italian. But working within the set up with Raw was really a different experience for the first time because it didn't feel like I had to have a sort of like British mentality or a British way of looking at things. They have always been cutting edge storytellers and they were really open to seeing things from a different perspective. And it was really great for me to be able to really bring out stories that were quintessential Italian, not very well known, not your stereotypical Italian stories.
And give a voice to Italian people and situations and stories that had never been heard before through the medium of food with Stanley, who is a great collaborator and host. So that made me feel like, OK, so maybe this is like a place where I really want to work. And in the meantime, I had started developing a series that was a completely different series. It was an Netflix series from the beginning, I thought about it, four Netflix.
And I brought it to Raw. And it was an Italian story that's very, very well known in Italy that went on to become the Vatican Girl series, which has again been a great collaboration with Raw. Because they had just done Don't Fuck with Cats, which was amazing and had been super successful for Netflix. And Mark Lewis, director, was interested in Vatican Girl, the project.
And so we started this collaboration. And it was a fantastic experience because we managed to elevate a very, very local story into a global story. And in Italy, it had an amazing cultural impact. It became a social-cultural phenomenon.
And the Vatican opened an inquiry as a result of the series. And the parliament is, in fact, voting today, whether they want to open an inquiry, coincidentally, this morning there is going to be a vote at the Senate. There is a third judicial inquiry that's been opened. And all of this is a result of a series, which is phenomenal.
I think for a documentary filmmaker, there isn't anything more than you can aspire to than have an impact, a real-life impact in what you do. So for those who haven't seen the Vatican Girl, tell us a little bit about it. And not only the story, but how you got the access. Because that's something that you've done throughout your career.
It's access to something that has been a real sort of specialism in your superpower almost. So first of all, tell us about the Vatican Girl for those who haven't seen it. So it's a four-part series. And it's a story that happens here in 1983 in Rome, a 15-year-old girl in Manuela Orlando went missing.
And to this day, we don't know exactly what happened to her. And the story of a very, very simple disappearance has majestic geopolitical repercussions that still to this day have shaken the world to the core. Because they involve the various different powers within this city that are the criminal powers, the Vatican, and various other political influences. And it's really difficult to imagine how something that seems so small and consequential, like one girl disappearing, can involve a whole nation and more than one nation and a pope that is considered a saint for the Catholic Church.
And entire groups of criminal organizations that have operated within the capital, this is exactly what the story was. It still is a very difficult story to tell, but a very important story to tell. I worked on this access for many years to go with my colleague who's no longer with us, Orelio Lino. And we thought that one of the most important things, the reasons why we wanted to tell the story was that the family of this girl have been fighting to have the truth without stopping for 40 years.
And somehow, we thought that if we managed to tell the story in a way that it was never told before, that could be elevated to the rest of the world, not just to Italy, the telling of the story could have a really big impact. And that's definitely what ended up happening because I think that Netflix spearheaded the interest for the story. And it sort of ballooned and it made it so that everybody who is Catholic, probably that has Netflix in the world, has watched it. And in some way, especially the youngest generations have decided that it's no longer right for the Vatican to not do anything about this, which is why in the end, the Vatican probably felt like they had to do something about it.
So you were asking me about the access. And I think that for me, access is the most complex thing about what I do and the most exciting thing about what I do. Because it's not just about getting a signature, it's not about a contract, it's about an ongoing conversation with the people that you are working with. Because at the end of the day, for you, it's always going to be just a job.
And for them, it's their whole life. And it's the case definitely for your LANDY family. But for every single person that we interviewed, they had a stake in the game and this story was a fundamental part of their life. And even thinking about them and with the contributors, about the implications of telling the story and thinking with them about how they want to tell that story has to be a real ongoing conversation and making people aware of what the consequences are going to be is a very delicate kind of relationship.
And for me, that is also the most rewarding part of what I do. I never would take on a project unless I thought that it was beneficial in some way for those people to tell that story. Because I feel like there are many ways in which human beings make sense of the world and sometimes them sharing the way that they make sense of the world or a story is all they have to give to the world. So like guiding them while they are doing that is a great, great privilege.
Being behind such an impactful series that has had such repercussions, how has that affected you? Obviously it has huge effects for the family. As a filmmaker and with this getting elevated as you say up to something parliament, etc. How has it affected you since it came out?
I felt like everything that was done was useful. It was an extraordinary feat and definitely probably the biggest thing I've ever done and an ambitious project beyond any comprehension in a way that I've never done before. But it made me feel like nothing was wasted in some way. It also made me really reflect on the power of a really well told story.
And I think that we are surrounded by stories and taking time to really think about how to tell a story is so important because I think that without a doubt if the story hadn't been told so effectively this impact would have not been the same. So I think it's changed me as a person because I think as a documentary filmmaker I put a lot of emphasis in trying to find the right story and I've put a lot of emphasis in creating the opportunities for the stories to be told. But I think in this time I had the opportunity to really invest in the craft much more than I've done before. And I think that effort paid off.
One of the things that we are doing at Raw is very much like sort of Jan Robasting work and thinking about how do we tell the story in a way that's never been told before? How do we do this in a way that's never been done before? And all of these questions and the people that I'm surrounded with are super, super talented. The idea of like all coming together and thinking about okay so this is the story but really what is the best way for this to come across?
That really is amazing. It's a great, it's a great balance. It's a real intellectual challenge isn't it? Because when you see stories and multi-layered stories in a way that stories are told and revelations when they happen and how they happen and how that takes the story on is what makes factual production elevate it up to that super premium level that does have that impact.
And that's something obviously we've seen Raw do that on a number of different occasions with a number of their different projects. Before we started talking you mentioned something about country busting which I thought was really interesting term in terms of what your special is and has been which is working on Italian stories and working with Italian stories from a different angle perhaps that they've been saying before but not exclusively Italian. Not exclusively okay. I think I'm very much starting to look at European stories not just European but stories like from places where we normally don't hear stories from because whether we like it or not there is a monopoly of British and American stories out there.
Often we often hear stories of like the big names and the big names in mainstream culture are Hollywood or maybe still quite from an Anglo-Saxon world. I just feel like for me it's such an important thing to remember that there are so many other cultures and it's a little bit what I was saying before about not telling stories from an imperialistic background even when I worked in the past on other programme from a sort of the BBC or from American corporations that would come to Italy and I would sort of make programmes about Italy from their perspective. And that was always really difficult for me because I really sit across these two cultures fully. I am sort of a mix between I don't really even know whether I'm more British or Italian anymore to be honest and I think I don't want to know.
I don't want to choose and I don't want to because what I think is really important is that a story is a story, a good story. It doesn't matter where it comes from. Everybody should have access to more than just American or British stories and it's a matter of how you tell the stories. It's not a matter of whether the stories are from America or from Spain or Portugal or Italy.
But one of the things that I've been trying to do is finding those stories that have the potential to be elevated to universal global stories. And I have started a lot of really great conversations with some producers in Europe and I'm really hoping to be able to do that more and more because I think that we're all hungry for different perspectives. We really all in need to really look at the world more deeply, more profoundly from different perspectives that are different to what we've seen up until now. Obviously it's the human condition but it's just different ways of looking at it.
That's really interesting. Now you're working on another Netflix project at the moment which you can't talk about. I know you hate that. You can't talk about that.
It's going to be amazing. That's like a tag. Well I'm sure it will if it's anything like your previous projects. So let's talk a little bit about me.
Is this your first time here or are you a regular? My second time. We presented about a girl last year. Now I have become part of the world which is a great honor because it's great to be on the map.
Also somebody who is Italian but works in a British company. It's great for people to know that there is a possibility out there to collaborate with people in Britain. I'm one of those always looking for amazing stories. Do you think that UK and Italian co-productions have there been many in the past particularly?
I'm trying to think of any that's spring to my man. I can't really think of any. No. I think that I'm trying to do the impossible.
It's not impossible but it's such a really different way of thinking. But I do think that there is such a huge benefit in collaborating with another culture that is different from yours because we all learn so much more when these collaborations work. It's always challenging but I think at the end of the day when you're working with super creative people it's mind-boggling how incredible it can be when two different people from two different cultures that are very talented come together. It's like nothing else.
It makes you feel like this is why we are here doing this job because at the end of the day art has only one language and I'm not saying that we're all making art. But in some way even if we're not even when we're not making art a lot of what we do, we have to do with art. And I think that really stories and human stories are a common language that we all can share and so when we find those points where we find the point in common there is actually nothing better. I'm just going to ask you one final question as well.
It's going back to an earlier point you made about searching for those stories. How do you do that? I mean is it just the case of being up a newspaper or hearing a radio conversation or where do these story leads come from? When we get ahead in digital first content, the drop is the go to newsletter for industry professionals delivering insider news, trends and insights straight to your inbox.
Navigate the fast changing landscape of digital first production, distribution and monetization. Sign up now for free at dropmedia.co.uk and stay involved with the drop. Well it's interesting that you're saying that. I think obviously there are lots of people whose job is we have an incredible team, development team, who's job is looking at newspapers like you say and looking at all of the like sort of like reading the zeitgeist and thinking about what is next.
But I think the really really good stories are always when you make connections that you never thought were possible and I think that I'm very lucky because I am a really innately curious person. If I'm sitting in a bus, I'm immediately listening to what the people are around me are talking about and if I'm curious enough I will ask people questions. I just don't have any shame when it comes to that and it's always like that. So the best stories and the best things in relation to stories that have been gifted to me have always had to do with connections that I could make only because I am slightly weird.
And so it's my weirdness and my ability to just open my life out and my ears out that has led me to the places that are less known. And so that like inevitably there will be somebody who has heard of something that will come up to you and say you know I'll tell you this is what happened. And often it's not something that's been published in a newspaper or maybe that was published in a newspaper but 20 years ago buried somewhere and nobody listened and then you're like wow like this is incredible. Best thing that we can do I think as producers is make those connections, make things happen that wouldn't happen if it wasn't for your own special lenses that you look things through.
Stay curious. Yeah, yeah. And this is also incidentally what AI will never be able to do because AI will always give you what's already been digested by some other human being. But I think if the people that don't normally talk to the media types are interrogated about the stories that they are carrying, they're not going to be inside any AI system.
And so that's kind of what our job is to stay curious and look for things in places where we haven't looked at. Kyara, thank you so much for spending time. It's really fascinating conversation. I can speak with you a lot longer and I'm sure there's loads of other projects we haven't even spoken about that are equally fascinating.
When's your next Netflix show going to be out? Is that going to be 2024 or is it going to be a little bit later? I think it's going to be a little bit later. But I'll definitely, they're content to you and I'll let you know when.
Alright, fantastic. Well, it sounds like it's a big one. Yes, definitely. Okay, thank you again.
Love it to me. Great. Thank you so much. So here we are day one of MIPCOM2023.
I'm here with Danny Fenton from ZigSag Productions. Danny, how are you? I'm good, Justin. It's lovely to be back in South France.
It is indeed. We spoke to you a few weeks ago for the telecast podcast and we talked about how you were going around the world and seeing what new deals you could do and what new markets you can unlock for a factual production. How's that going? Are you doing lots of international meetings here at MIPCOM?
Yeah, I mean, the great thing about coming to MIPCOM is that all of those people come to one place. So the conversations we've been having I told you about with Saudi Arabia, with China, with South Africa are all happening here as a follow up. Unfortunately, the only ones we're not able to have are with the partners of Evan Israel who haven't been able to attend for obvious reasons. But generally speaking, all the people that we've been speaking to in other countries are here.
So that makes us sort of a one-stop shop. And you're one of the hardest working producers I know when it comes to working the market and getting the right meetings in. How's it looking this year? Is your diary as packed as ever?
It's very kind of you to say I'm one of the hardest working. I'm sure there are many more and more hard working. I always feel like I like to look like I'm a swan, you know, gliding on the surface kicking furiously underneath the water. You know, working hard is an necessity in this industry.
I always think there are a lot more clever people than me. I think I have to work harder to keep up with the clever people. We have, I have 68 meetings the next three days. So that's a meeting every half an hour, no toilet breaks and a couple of breaks for eating.
Extraordinary stamina. So what are you pitching? We're pitching many things to many different people and obviously every show that we're pitching is a bespoke beautiful thing. But part of our philosophy and my philosophy is if you're shaking off trees, some coconuts will have to fall out.
So even this morning on the first day of the market, we've had two offers on two projects. So those offers almost make it worthwhile in itself to be here. We are pitching, you know, factual projects. We have access to the International Legion Ukraine for a six part series where we have half the money, which one for the rest of the money here.
We are pitching some formats. We range all the way from sort of feature length, award winning documentaries all day through to shiny floor game shows. We have a game show that we are partnering with a South African producer on that we're looking to launch here as well. So there are numerous different projects that we're pitching here and looking for numerous different buyers.
So lots of international countries coming together more than they have been probably since before COVID. So you're finding business has been done. Business has definitely been done. So we're going to specify that just from this morning's interesting couple of our projects.
What's interesting is that UK producers with a US presence is there are a lot less UK and US buyers here than they've been historically. But as we discussed on the podcast a few weeks ago, the UK and US markets are quite flat. So what is great about being here is if those buyers from other countries who are looking to buy and what you hope is that people are coming to Bitcoin as buyers are coming because they want to spend money on buying shows, not just on having nice meals and a good time. So we are seeing when I say we've got 68 meetings, I reckon we're probably seeing people from at least 50 different countries within that.
So it's a real across the board geographical reach. And you told us about your project in China, the Great Wall of China Project Travel Show. China are back and back and forth for the first time in about three, four years. Are you seeing lots of Chinese businesses and working with them in terms of co-production and new projects?
So we have this new project that you mentioned that is launching at this market, the Great Wall with Ash Dikes, which will be airing in China I think next week on CCTV. Yes, China's back in a big way at the market, which we haven't seen since pre-pandemic. We are talking to China about other projects. I'd say Asia is back in a big way in general.
There's a lot more people from Korea I'm seeing here and Thailand Singapore. So I think the Asian market is back in a big way and the other big market seems in the Middle East, there's a strong Middle East in presence as well. So from an experienced producer to a newbie who's attending the market as a producer from whatever country they're from, what would be your top tips for having a successful mipcon? I mean my top tip, but it might be a bit late to tell people this now, is pre-book your meetings.
So I bumped into a producer actually at the airport who booked last a minute and I said to him, you know, how many meetings have you got? I said, I have many meetings, I'm just going to go down and see who I can meet. And I'm not saying that's a bad idea because if you're a new producer when you're at a flavour market, you want to walk around the pally, you want to see what ideas are out there, that's great. But I think if you really want to get business done, you have to be prepared, you have to plan your meetings and you have to have the 68 meetings back to back over three days.
And that takes a couple of months to set up in advance, right? Yeah, I think, you know, Mia is exactly, you know, very well. She started booking meetings in August and I bumped into somebody last week who's a broadcaster and I said, you know, when did you start booking your meetings and they said they closed their diary about a month before mip? So it's almost like you can't go too soon, you're trying to put your meetings for mip.
And I think if you want to get something meaningful out the market, you want to have pre-part meetings. Alright, that's good advice. Danny Fenson from 6A Productions, thanks so much for joining us. Thank you very much.
Well that's it for this week's show. Telecast was edited by Ian Chambers and recorded in Rome and Canada. Next week we're chatting with award-winning Digital Studio, the sole publishing. Until then, stay safe.