Hello and welcome to sitcom geeks the podcast about all things sitcom I'm James Carey. I'm Dave Cohen and we will also have occasional interruptions from our producer Katie Storing and she will be making sure that we don't get too high up to sitcom geek uh I don't know what the sitcom geek what she'll be making sure that we don't get too high our own sitcom backside I think that's really the way putting it this is a podcast about sitcoms writing sitcoms the technical boring business of making sure your sitcom doesn't stink and today we're looking at larger-than-life characters and this is something that I've spoken to Dave Cohen quite a lot about and he's got some theories about sitcoms and how they need larger-than-life characters yeah um I just want to say also that every time you have a theory there's always somebody comes along and especially in comedy and they'll prove your theory wrong which is fine because that's how new things happen but let's try and save time and create it wrong now yeah yeah well for the moment though I will stick to a way hypothesis my hypothesis is that really there are two types of sitcom and the two types are there is the larger-than-life sitcom about one person or there is the odd couple sitcom about two people which is a fantastically simplistic way of putting it um so today we're gonna look at larger the knife and for the the odd couple two people show we're gonna look at in a future podcast right yeah cool that's right um it's at this point I will mention the ensemble sitcom like for instance Friends which actually was supposed to be about Monica and Joey wasn't it they were the original apparently so I went to a workshop quite a long time ago where they had one of the early writers on the show and they all thought this show is going to be about Monica and Joey they are going to be the hot couple and they are I think that was the only romantic arrangement which didn't happen in the whole in the whole ten or eleven years of the show yeah so um so even the ensemble sitcoms are not necessarily ensemble the it crowd is another one or the it crowd which however you pronounce it that's got three larger-than-life characters but again I'd say I feel like that's an exception um that proves the rule and so yeah characters who are larger than life I mean literally in the case of Miranda which of course shows that you've written on James and you know literally metaphorically physically larger than life and actually I often wondered when I was watching Miranda if there was something about the sets that they've been made to look physically a little bit smaller than your average set so they should go even bigger because that's kind of such a kind of pro part of the whole well we'll be I think in one sense the the joke shop with all the shot that she had was in anything slightly bigger and nicer than I was imagining I was imagining something slightly smaller and more cramped but certainly it helped that Stevie her best friend is considerably shorter than Miranda is so that kind of did heighten the difference but actually I mean that show I think Penny and Gary are actually quite tall as well but in her but when she's on her own you know with Stevie certainly that difference is quite accentuated but yeah in one sense she is a larger-than-life character and in a sense she's someone who's always trying to fit in because she feels larger than life you know and so she's always trying to you know so yeah the show is very much about Miranda the glues of the title she's in every single scene and when she leaves the room the scene is over so you know exactly what's what's going on yeah yeah but so in terms of the character though you're mentioning that how you know she's always trying to fit in and I mean it's it helps us isn't it that when we've got these sort of physical clues about someone not fitting in but that's kind of in terms of going back to what we talk about when what's the show about and what's it really about I mean it's it's about someone who is an outsider and that which is a very common sitcom character isn't it yeah I mean it's sort of the fish out of water sort of character and there's a sense in which Miranda feels like she doesn't really belong and so she really tries hard to belong I think and that's why I can take no credit at all this is entirely she created this sort of character that I don't think we'd seen before and I think it was very popular because a lot of people women particularly watch the show and thought oh my goodness this woman has seen into my head and a lot of men watch the show and thought oh my goodness I know someone exactly like this but you've got that fish out of water character and sometimes it works in a realistic situation like that which it is comparatively and other times I mean I've worked on a show called My Hero where it's basically hey I'm out in an alien show and there were quite you know there's a proud heritage of alien shows going back to more Quimindy third rock from the Sun my parents aliens actually I had this idea a while ago it was a joke and then I just thought I remember thinking about thinking of a rubbish sitcom and called My Stepmother is Galadriel and then it was and then occasionally more thought about that the more I thought oh maybe that is actually a show where a guy you know sort of meets the Queen of the Isles she sort of washed up on the beach and she hasn't sailed to the west with the owls and now she takes her home and I was like oh that's no that's the show is this no no no that way Madeleine slides so yeah I think I think we can safely put that one in the bottom draw yeah absolutely yeah so in one sense you get the the characters who don't really belong and then there's another character there's another type of character in one sense whose time has passed and I was just thinking of a big example of this which would have really big show at the time and it's not quite so well remembered is to the man of born where you've got there'll be Keith playing Audrey Forbes Hamilton is that right? Double F on the Forbes or something? which is someone who can no longer afford to live in the manor and has to live in the lodge and now a sort of a Robert Maxwell type character has bought but played by Peter Bol somehow and I quite understand how that works that he's some Czech multi-millionaire or something and I quite understand it but someone who is a fish out of water in the sense of the water has changed yeah it's that sort of she's now in a situation where she doesn't belong where she used to belong her world has changed I think you know I'm thinking also of Reggie Perrin as a example of that as well somebody who is like he he is us he's the one sort of sane person but the world the world has gone mad the world around him is completely mad and everything is selling and the superficiality of life is completely passing him by really he's stuck in that.
And just thinking laterally that character now you mentioned him like that I'm just thinking of Yozari and in Catch 22 where you've got a character who's sort of standing up in the middle of the crazy world that we recognize as our world but going this is crazy can't anyone see how crazy this is I suppose you get that then feeding into action that kind of thing but that Reggie Perrin thing is a really good example of he represents us and yet he is a fish out of water because the world seems to be mad I think I'm sorry clever I think you're mad at it. And I always say larger than life but I mean there also it's one step further to actually say well these characters aren't just larger than life some of them are like complete monsters really aren't they and the monster is as a sitcom character as the main sitcom character. Yeah it's sort of I wonder if it's two categories or one you know I think it probably is two categories because you've got your larger life character who was an accentuated version of us maybe or an outside or something but then there's a monster which is someone who's sort of just completely off the chain in terms of exaggerated or I don't know it's difficult isn't it? I mean who are we thinking of in terms of monsters?
Well obviously David Brent is the one who kind of springs to mind and kind of I suppose Alan Partridge as in I'm thinking father godfather of that. Yeah absolutely yes I'm thinking hi 6th bouquet as a monster I mean is she larger than life or is she a monster I mean I would say she's a monster because she's absolutely deranged. And yeah it's kind of interesting. And bezel for the year the monster.
You've got about 40 you've also got Victor Melgerie and there's sort of people who were driven to the edge and are almost forced to behave like monsters and yet if you said to them you're a monster they wouldn't understand they would say I'm an entirely reasonable person. Yeah maybe I suppose if you include Larry David as in the character played by Larry David and the characters who they kind of just don't have the sort of social capabilities I'm wary of saying characters being on autism spectrum but I mean there is definitely a sense that these characters that we've discussed they don't have a self-awareness they don't have an ability to they don't have some social communication skills. I think I mean a good really good case of that because it is often quite a lazy thing to say and you're right to say that somebody somewhere on the spectrum because David Brent is a really good example of someone who isn't but who just has no self-awareness in a very very believable way. I think one of the reasons that show was so successful is because it absolutely nailed a character that we really do recognize so it is completely believable and yet you know he really is an extreme character.
Yeah I mean that's an interesting thought really well we say it's saying about you know the monster character it's like it's you know well you think you know this is sick on its tail it's exaggerated isn't it it's not like real life but actually you're right there is a sense in that that these people they are familiar to us aren't they sometimes. Yeah that's true and that's because you know and I think maybe that's one of the reasons that if you're starting out writing situation comedy or even actually when going a while you can sort of shrink from writing stuff that you think is cliched or over the top because it can feel a bit desperate or broad but actually I mean in the first instance you'll sit on these to be clear and understandable the audience needs to know who is them who are the main characters and what are they trying to do what are they like and so you do need an instant recognizability which you get with David Brent in a way that doesn't feel over the top or monstrous and that's why I think it's probably such an impressive show because you know you have other characters who are much more over the top like Hijas into bouquet and you think well no one's really like that but actually they are though I mean we all have every family has someone I'm sure Katie has this and where there is a member of the family who has just decided to be way posher than everybody else Oh that's you and the rest of the family going oh yes that's basically actually posh um my um my team the producer she's a producer now oh yes my um my wife's family have had a great auntie who who died recently aged about 107 but she was much more well to do I think in terms of wanting to be like that and other relatives here and there who were sort of they've just decided to be like that so when you actually stop and think about it you think well these people do actually exist and actually even the real monsters they actually monsters exist in real life too I mean you you get them as you know football managers you know Alex Ferguson goes in Mourinho they are real people they actually existed um and you get that particular sport you mean like Jeff Boycott Jeff Boycott my hero he's a hero he's a hero you know it's my fault I was born into the leads and and uh just at the time that his cricket career snarred in fact the first his first century I remember was like slow hand claps and his home ground that was my introduction to Jeffrey Boycott yes he's a he's a very good example I mean the other thing to say about these people is yes they might be the famous people or like you say people in your family you you think well that couldn't happen I mean surely that can't happen all the time but actually you're sort of asking for six incidents that happened in a year really absolutely it's big events that each of these things you turn into like one episode of your sitcom and actually in terms of what people are like that's I'm thinking of some of my relatives I think six is that's quite a modest number really absolutely so so I mean so all these people who are real I mean another great football manager and you there's a great film about him is Brian Claf so Brian Claf is was real and I'm now moderately obsessed with the down-gnite is and because it's just such a good film you think this guy was actually like that a lot of the stuff that he says he really actually said and you know you also get them on team you know gorn ransy he's real Alan Sugar he's real Simon Cowell he's real and I know they're sort of televised versions of themselves but you do get the sense that they are like that and that's fine and if you're writing a sitcom you might want to write about something small and everyday that's that's fine but I tell you what I'm on still we'll get you a heck of a long way very quickly because again they want him to know who's it about and actually want to establish them they're kind of they're rubbing their hands very excited about what this monster is going to do next sorry that just reminded me of the scene from Outnumbered which I know he's not your favorite sitcom but there's a very funny episode where German exchange student comes to stay with them watching telling with the kids and they're saying and he says oh you like comedy yes you like English I love your English comedy I like your guy what's the guy Ricky Gervaisie he's very funny and he's saying that and that other man he's really funny the the blonde band he plays he plays the the mayor of London yeah no no that's Boris Johnson that's a real person no no no no he's really really love him so funny well there you go Boris Johnson is real and that's why you know these satirical shows can often you know sort of always struggle to top the reality of it it's hard to write stuff for Boris Johnson somebody isn't all Betty that he hasn't already actually said so so yeah these these monsters but actually I think you've had an interesting observation about them and about about how about where they come from and how they originate um well in terms of the um the particular people I suppose one of the things which I think the obvious monsters like Brenton Partridge and Basil Folti they are actually the guys right wrote them themselves themselves I'm supposed to have said Miranda as well but I think that's and so Mrs Brown you're another one of your favorites I've learned to love Mrs Brown man I've learned to accept that you've learned to live with the reality the world in which Mrs Brown is the most successful comedy on UK terms at the cinema everywhere else in the books whatever but yeah so obviously in terms of you writing your sitcom you new comedy sitcom writers you're kind of obviously unless you're also somebody who's playing a certain character live and have nailed that character perfectly and it's and it's you then or an exaggeration of you but that's probably not most of you so you're gonna have to kind of settle for somebody who's a big like that or a big like that someone you know absolutely but no it's interesting yeah the number of the number of characters who are larger than life even going back like um adena from Ab Fab you know actually quite a long way back there's a lot of these monster characters are quite right performers yeah and that's a really really interesting observation I mean that's another area that we've we've we've discussed it meant before the writer performer and the sitcom and where that where that takes us we'll get another podcast for that one yes let's go to the right of the former we'll call that no no we won't call that one um well I mean one thing that um it's worth thinking about when you're when you are trying to think of these characters um is um it's to think in cliches because although you don't you don't write in cliches but the reason that cliches is because they are basically shortcuts to instantly telling you something about a character so even though the phrase larger than life is a cliches that it tells you straight away something about that person uh and then if you if you're trying to find with your main character what what you're looking for is is whether it's like an outsider as we mentioned or is your what what is the big flaw what is the thing that that makes them do the same things badly every week and what makes us want to come back and see them and so you think about things like he's larger than life he's he thinks he's it she loves too much or you know so so you kind of when you find those kind of if you can find one of those cliches that hasn't been done with the character you know Basil Foltik he has ideas above his station yeah it's really but I think that Brinter is on to something said to understanding your monster um because you know we're gonna we'll go on and talk in a moment about a different type of comedy character but whilst we're still on the monster I think it's easy to just sort of create a monster and have them to stomp around the place chatting at people actually the reason that our monsters are monsters is because they are pushed to two-month-stosity because they think that they are misunderstood and I think it's just working out you know there's no one to be said on character but asking what your character wants our situation who is your monster what why are they a monster I mean Victor Malto isn't a monster he's really good at being angry but actually the thing he hates most which is an entirely reasonable thing he hates being overlooked I mean the first episode he's a security guard who's made redundant and replaced by a box you know it's like well here you go you're now out of work we've replaced you with a box how do you feel about life now um Basil Folti is another great example you know he he is driven to demented comedy behavior because he's a snob who wants to run a classy hotel and he is unable to do that because he's not very good at running a hotel and so therefore he's permanently crossed with people because he's probably crossed with guests because they're the wrong kind of guests he wants to run a classy hotel but he doesn't have classy guests and so apart from the one who turns out to be a conman yes that's right you know he forms over this man is a lord and then he was just able to be a fraud but I think that's another good question to ask which is one that I've learned from you Dave where you say the world's worst you know as a sort of a sitcom character it's the worst something in the world yeah there's another good way of thinking especially if you've started with a situation or a setting or a place you think oh let's set a hotel and set a sickleman hotel right who would be the worst person in the world to run a hotel um they didn't need to answer they didn't need to answer John please you need to ask that question because he just stayed in a hotel which was run by a guy who was completely over cranked um and they still ended up with yeah with Basil Folti right um I'm sorry I mean I'm still I'm still prepared to stick with calling these people larger than life I think but um to come on to another type of larger than life character and I think this is definitely something um post-fature characters I would say um that's yeah there's a lot of life character it might be a patch yet well he was not fictional no that's true unfortunately for some no but I was reading something saying John Snow saying how he used to fancy her when he interviewed her which is just kind of done terrible things to my head just putting all those that together um but yeah the opportunist basically the character who's you know who's up for a the the chancer that you know the sort of they're kind of in it for themselves and all these characters were from the 80s and 90s really so you've got like um black had a father-tared Delboy and actually also I forgot this name now from uh Minder um George Phil yes yes right uh after the day of course how could I forget that um you mentioned Fletcher as one of those I think maybe I suppose like you say it's little victories not but these other guys these are these these opportunities yeah in prison so he'll make the most of any opportunity in prison so you know when I watch the other day where it was we're going to go with Dix and Ditches he just thought right how can I turn this to my advantage and he manages to get a drink in the pub yeah the other the other guys don't right but he does he manages to borrow a pound of uh mr barracluff to go and get some ointment for somebody sat on a bee or something and then he manages to get and he also manages to get a free drink out of the vicar um you know as well and then and then nix the church warden's bike so yeah I think he's an opportunist yeah but I mean that's the chance of characters really they kind of uh yeah they um he's more of a you know he's sort of always looking out for god but I suppose always looking out for Rodney as well but yeah it's a mix because he really I think Delbourn really plays out brother thing both ways because he'll use the memory of their mum to justify anything that he himself wants to do and will tell Rodney that it's for his own good whether it is or it isn't so um but again it's a character that really evolves as the you know as the years went by because early episode he's almost a crook isn't he? It is so much kind of harder for the original series of only fours and horses certainly feels less I mean there's much more kind of threat and sort of heavy kind of gangster kind of stuff in there. It's a menace there isn't there yeah yeah there's a lot of that and obviously as it develops as a writer of course John Sullivan and the characters develop and they they they you can't keep that up that kind of level of monster character up for so long and so he becomes more sort of well drawn but I mean I think that that's um certainly Blackadder and Father Ted and Delmour they all feel almost let they're all from a kind of very similar period and they all feel like they come out of that kind of you know there is no such thing as society it's all you know each uh everyone's in it for themselves and that that that so again when you're when you're thinking about your your monster character what is it as well about the kind of without being too specific and sort of nailing it to April or May 2015 you know what what is it about this specific character that makes them kind of of the of the time and I think um and I think this is maybe why I'm slightly disagreeing with the fact that you think they're monsters or you know he's a monster the same as a fish out of water probably not but um are these people monsters here's one observation I sort of recently came to which may or may not be true is that there is a contrast between a monster and these characters because I think a monster is someone who is out of step with their surroundings and their times so there's someone who is sort of raging against the world because they don't understand the world and the world doesn't understand them whereas I think so a monster can be a throwback to an old time or actually a visionary of the future you know and a profit in his own lifetime is not you know listen to but an opportunist an opportunist I think is someone who understands their times and understands the opportunities they can you know so I think like so I think Fletcher and Delmour and Father Ted and Blackadder they do understand the times they live in they just can't quite capitalize on it maybe I don't know this is I mean we're all putting theories out of the air here to be honest aren't we?
yeah yeah but it's a matter of the great isn't it I mean it's a bit of a manufactured disagreement with the other one I don't know I mean I think Delmour is a really interesting character because again going back to him he really does reflect the times of you know so in the early 80s or whatever he starts you know there is that kind of menace to it but then he really encapsulates the Thatcher dream you know this time next year will be millionaires you know and then he sort of ends up going through his sort of yuppy phase as well and his upwardly mobile and so the sense in which he's always trying to get in with the times and work out what opportunities they bring him as opposed to you know a relic from a bygone era or someone who's sort of you know I'm thinking about Gordon Brittas for example who let's be honest was ahead of his time because he foreshadows the health and safety culture now somewhat taken granted but I'm not going to be in a comedy theory on Gordon Brittas too much. I was also having one thing we haven't mentioned just as thinking about the various monasterism and the obvious prototype monster was of course Al Fgharnit and the interesting thing about that and again when you think about when you're writing your monster characters Johnny Spate was when he was writing Al Fgharnit was really thinking you know how horrible can I make this person I really hate this person so much I'm going to make the most disliked despicable person in the universe and the more horrible he made him the more popular he became and the more Al Fgharnit became this kind of and for years and years afterwards you know that he became this I'll tell you what who should be prime minister this country Al Fgharnit that's so he'd set the place right I'll tell you he's the only person who ever talked any sense at all and you know Johnny Spate was totally thrown by this he wasn't expecting this at all and this character is because the most adored character I suppose so Paranel would be kind of fuss has been that some jerry Clarkson in recent weeks I guess you know Al Marry Popland or some extent is that kind of that kind of character that's a place with all that stuff of what's acceptable and what isn't yeah so yeah there's so many ways to go on this but overall I think just to wrap things up a little bit there's an extent to which he really is a comedy writer need to possibly push things much further than you think you should or that you can because the audience really need to understand you know who your character is and they'll only really get that if you get a really strong sense of who they are and so in general I would urge you to start big and then maybe dial it down if you feel you have to but in general I don't think that you can start too big No no as long as there's a sense that you know we're talking about how you know people you know if you know people who've done certain things or like you say if you use characters big characters from sport or or just TV you've seen these things okay family okay team yes yeah yeah just take take that exaggerate it a bit for comic effects and change the name yeah yes that does help yeah and see where that takes you and so that's we haven't got on to the odd couple that's all yet we'll talk about that in another podcast but I think that's basically that's your larger than life cancer absolutely and any questions about this if you want to talk to us any questions about anything sitcom related email us and it's sitcomgeeksatgmail.com Great so before we wrap up finally we're talking about what we're watching at the moment what are you watching at the moment well we just finished watching Pompidoo which was on at the famous comedy slots of songs of praise when normally it's on Sunday early Sunday evening on BBC 2 not even in the not even the songs of praise slots no so bizarrely but but I mean a good time because I watched it with with the kids and my kids absolutely loved it and it's the first week of not having it they were completely bereft and they were forced to sit and watch country file there is nothing wrong but when you're hoping for Pompidoo yeah they're very much not the same basically Matt Lucas played the character sort of loosely based on the character he used to stand up at Bernard Chomley but it's more of a sort of character but a bit like a bit like Audrey Fort Wilson yes it's for Faded Grandeur it's fallen on hard times lives in the caravan at the bottom of the state they own with his with his man so faithful man servant and his faithful dog and it's a silent comedy although there's lots of grunting very much very reminiscent of the roly bark of the futtox end and if you remember that but so it's probably still kicking around and I play really nice but it's great the kids absolutely adore it and yeah I thought about what you're talking to my kids are probably a bit too young for it I just watched it for my only job I watched the first one I really enjoyed that and I haven't got rent watching the other ones yet but I certainly plan to do. Katie what have you been watching it's not that recent that's Series 6 Popsmock Series 6 you were obviously going to go Popsmock Team you're a serious ahead of me why do you love it so much yes love in Paula and I think I compared it to 30 Rock a lot obviously for 13th but I think whereas 30 Rock one of it way win a bit mad Popsm actually is very tight like you really care about these people all the way through yeah and then they make significant life changes and character changes. It's a small world isn't it but they manage to every episode that I'm sadly watching on BC4 or BC2 so I pick up episodes here and there randomly but every time I watch it it sort of goes that their main characters are put in themselves or are put in seriously every episode it's all it's completely believable.
And yeah they are actually larger than life characters in fact all of them are larger than life you know I think obviously Leslie Knope is you know is really over the top in some ways as is you know my favourite obviously Ron Swanson but actually again if you worry too much about that you really don't need to because as the episodes progress they are humanised every single time even even Stone Cold libertarian Ron Swanson is actually a very warm-hearted friend so Leslie and gives her really good advice whilst trying to pretend like he really doesn't yeah but I'm serious behind you so maybe this will go that window but I suspect it doesn't yeah so it's because it's because it's good I've also been watching it's not quite in the same class but I still just watch Brooklyn Nine Nine it's just funny every week and it makes me laugh and I don't really I don't really analyse it too much although occasionally I this is how pathetic I am occasionally I just think oh that's not a regular storyline I could have written that one because only things are so good you think oh my goodness why do I even bother but with that one or two you just think hey I could do one that's not quite as good as the others maybe I could write for Brooklyn Nine one day but thank you for alerting me to that show which I haven't heard of at all then I watched it on your recommendation and that is great it's kind of scrubs in a police station but you know slightly slightly different but it's got that pace and that playfulness hasn't it? yeah it's just really good and again lots of larger life characters even though it's not an audience show we'll talk about audience shows not audience shows on a future podcast but that's a really good example another good example of psychopaths and rapists Joe Joe Joe Joe you can still have the same intensity and the same funny but you know without the studio audience although for me I love a studio so we are wrapping things up that was today's episode we have been thinking about lives and life characters and all that don't forget you can email us at sitcomgeeks at gmail.com thank you to Katie Story Art Projuser and to Rushforth Media for hosting this podcast and recording and hopefully we'll I'm going to say we'll hear from you next time but of course we don't hear from you and you hear from us but again if you want to tell us what you're thinking then email us at sitcomgeeks.com thanks very much thank you Dave thank you thank you Katie bye