Hello, I am Paige Yaupanyak, and a tutorial director at Promax, and this is the Daily Brief podcast. Today, I am thrilled to be joined by three executives from Denver-based Creative Agency's built, owner and executive creative director at Ryan, and then his two newest senior creative directors, Ryan Summers and Ryan Ilo. Ryan comes from a motion design background, and Ryan is like many of our listeners know, from a live action background, and our friends at 2C. So hi everybody, welcome to the podcast.
Go in, hello, hello, nice to see you. See how you guys are ready already? All right, so yeah, so for listeners, you know, these guys are like, they're outfitted out. So let me start with you.
So tell me a little bit about your background, when, how, why you started built, let's just start with that, and then I'll go from now. And also, like, what the heck is built doing in Denver? Well, I think that that's an amazing story in itself. For a couple of reasons.
One, I didn't actually start to build. I came in as a partner in 2015. What I had done before was honestly, I went to school for geology, and literally the love of the outdoors brought me to Colorado. I got involved with working at Skiing Magazine, and doing live action production for outdoor entertainment brands, and then just realized I had this love of animation and compositing work from, you know, movies in my youth and growing up.
So I actually went back to school for that at that point. In 2010, I started my own company, Freed Motion, after a brief sit in LA. And at that point, you know, like most first ventures for an entrepreneur, like that went well and then didn't go well. And I always been very close friends with Ryan Bramwell, who was the founder and owner of Spill at that time.
So in 2015, we merged together. And then right after our lovely global pandemic, you know, he decided to move to the mountains of Colorado and get out of the entertainment industry and I took over as the sole owner of Spilt. All right. And then what do you sort of consider to be Spilt's unique superpower?
Yeah, thanks. I've thought about this a lot, because we get this question. And I always feel like in my head, I'm designing like a Marvel-esque superhero treaty card with what's cool is, and like what our key factors are. I think, you know, it's something that continues to evolve as I try and grow the company and have brought on Brian and Ryan.
So it's not one thing that always stays the same. I think that the core fundamental that we have, we would say is embracing the mess. For us, that's coming up with unique and creative methods for approaching an ever-evolving world of creative and technology. That's, it's like creative itself is an imperfect and ugly process.
Generally, like you could consider it to be a mess. And a lot of people try to avoid that, I would say, and don't want to open the back doors of what like what actually goes on within their studio and the fact that people actually take jobs and they might not know exactly what they're gonna do, but they know that they can do it. Because that's just what you're taught in the long run. But here, I feel like we really embrace it.
And what we love to do is think about any possible approach and know that if we follow that, that's our true path to getting the best work out of any possible project. And also why did you choose, or why did you and your co-founder or co-owner, whatever that guy was, what had it come, he chose the name? Well, I think like originally it came from the founders sitting and having a round table essentially of, what is the name for this thing that we're going to do? They all came from different backgrounds in New York and the Denver local market and decided to post up in 2008 and open up spilt.
And it's kind of comical in the sense of like, a drink was spilled literally on the table. And it was like, hey, that's okay. And I think from there, it evolved into the idea of like spilling ideas and spilling creative out and cleaning it up and getting the best real effort. I think it ties into what you just said too about embrace the mess.
Yeah, certainly. On the super power side, I think there's also two other things that are really core to who we are as a company. And I would say one of those is honestly listening because there's so many people out there that listen only enough to get a job in the door, prove that they're the right fit to then push out what I feel like is essentially their own idea with or without regard to client needs. And I feel like we are people that actually really enjoy diving in and learning what clients are dealing with, like what their role is within their company is like what challenges they face.
It's frankly one of the things that I love about the creative and motion design industry is like I get to learn about like this year alone, all kinds of technology and vaccines and how we can clean up watersheds and aquifers. And there's so much knowledge to absorb. And I feel like we actually truly do listen and that brings a very distinct approach to our clients because we're trying to put ourselves in the same position that they are. What would you say, first of all, is your sort of core client base?
And does it have anything to do with being in Denver? Is that irrelevant at this point? I think at this point, it is irrelevant. You know, in the beginning, we had a lot more local work.
I feel like probably now only 5% of our work actually comes from within the Denver market. The client base has changed over time. We started out as primarily only a broadcast design and animation studio. As we got more involved in the local market that led to advertising, which led to hiring sales reps on both coasts and expanding more in the advertising realm.
And then we love telling stories. So we purposely made work internally to be able to pitch to Netflix and places like that that do streaming content. So now our areas are really in the broadcast entertainment world, advertising direct to clients as much as possible. And then also a film and streaming area with Netflix and Hulu and Apple TV and HBO Max.
How did you identify Ryan and Brian as the right fits first built? And was it because their names rhymed? It makes it so much easier on the phone call. It is actually a mandatory that all the names rhyme.
It did make it easier. I identified that. I mean, Brian and I have known for over a decade now, we've both worked at Impossible Pictures and Denver together. And at that point, I was a junior animator designer and Brian had just stepped out of being the senior editor role into like Assistant Creative Director and then the full creative director by the time I left.
And I just always, I've always really valued and loved his passion for really diving into projects and thinking of them in different and unique ways. And the ability for him to think of the things that editorial mindset too is frankly amazing for us in the sense of being a creative studio that does a lot of animation and design work, having that editorial aspect of looking at those projects brings a lot to the table. So we had talked for years about how do we work together? What do we do?
How can we make this new marriage kind of thing work? He started helping us out on pitches. And eventually I was just like, what am I waiting for? I love working with this person.
I need to make them an offer and do my best to bring them in because it's frankly like, I would say a very important thing for me running a business is to like, we can all do this work anywhere, but working with good people that you like to work with day to day makes the job so much easier and so much more fun. And I knew that Ryan's an amazing person and what he would bring to the table. So once I offered it and he came in, it was truly an offer I couldn't refuse. Yeah.
You hired Brian because he was amazing. And then you're like, now I have to find somebody who rhymes and then you got Ryan. Exactly. Ryan was a, I mean, I think in the middle of the pandemic, like people just started reaching out and talking to each other more, not necessarily in the sense of like physical or even zoom communication.
But like I started talking to Ryan online about a bunch of things. And I'm heavily involved with the revving team. I've worked with Joel and Tim for a number of years and I think through that forum, I got to know Brian a lot better. And we just started to chat every once in a while.
And there was one day he told me, he's like, I'm gonna leave school in motion and I'm interviewing with people and I'm really excited to like, I love the education side of things, but I'm really excited to get out of there and get back into making things and like working with clients and be back in that world. And I was like, you know, hold on a minute, like let's chat because I also need another creative director right now. And you know, just in our few conversations, I felt like values were aligned, mentality was aligned on what we think motion design is. And you know, I think we chatted for what?
Maybe two or three weeks before I got a wonderful call that said like, yep, I'm gonna turn down every other option I have and come where he spoke. Yeah. Brian, are you here in Denver, are you in LA? No, this is the thing that I love about the post-pandemic or mid-pandemic world.
I'm actually in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Oh, wow. I've never looked to anybody on the park has a Milwaukee actually. Welcome.
I mean, if you want to talk about cheese curds and beer, we probably have a... I'm in Colorado. I know everything about beer. There you go.
Yeah. But cheese curds. Yeah, definitely got you. You went on the cheese curds.
I mean, I lived in LA for nine years, eight and a half, nine years. We're all like reformed LA people. That's funny. So I feel like I'm still there a lot.
And I was considering a move to LA from Milwaukee. I haven't been in Chicago for a few years before that. But yeah, that's one of the awesome benefits of this is that, I mean, we really do spend our lives on Slack and Zoom and phone calls and huddles. But it's amazing how well it actually works now in a world where it seems like that was not even a remote possibility.
Yeah. It's funny because so Ryan used to be a chemical engineer and used to be a geologist. Brian, what's your engineering pilot? I went to school to be a pilot.
Oh, really? Aviation was my sort of first love. And... Yeah, sure.
Yeah. Honestly, aviation physics was definitely an area where I was like, I'm not sure I'm cut out for this. All right, let me stick with Ryan for a second. So what led you from chemical design to motion design and to talk a little bit about that journey?
Yeah. I'm going to say the word journey. Journey's a great word. I love that.
I'm from the South Side of Chicago, where honestly, I run into a lot of people, you know, talk about LA, that are all from the Midwest. We kind of had this common thing running through us is that if you're doing anything other than thinking about safety and security, you almost feel a little bit selfish, if that makes any sense psychologically. And I didn't know anybody who was an artist, a working artist or just kind of even as a hobby, right? But you know, growing up in the 80s, like you're a child of like that Star Wars generation and comic books and video games and animation and movies, like all that stuff was kind of like for the first time, like available to you culturally.
And it's crazy now because I feel like pop culture is culture, but I was living in a world where I should have wanted to be an animator or a designer. I just know that was possible. So when I was in high school, I was drawn and doing all that stuff all the time, but they pointed me in a direction of kind of like science, you know, because I did okay at school and I seemed like a pathway and it was very easy to just say, okay, cool, go to this place for four years. These are your three choices.
This is what you can make your set up. You could want to think more. I mean, the mistake of taking this just like off the cuff one time offered in my college, a class in 3D studio. It wasn't even 3D studio, Max.
It was like 3D studio. It was DOS performance. 3D studio, minimum, yeah. Exactly.
It wasn't even on like Windows, like good, but it was, I've said this many times before, but it's the first time I've ever, sure Brian can talk about this, you know, musician. It's the first time I've experienced flow, right? Like you hear people who like they pick a guitar and it just kind of like 10 minutes turns into 10 hours. And I literally, you know, I had a 12-week course and I loved it and I had an affinity for it and I just switched on a dime.
It also happened to be like the same summer when like, I think like two major newspapers or magazines both said like three animators, like the new hot position. So I was able to kind of have like anecdotal proof to go to my family like, hey, it's cool. I'm not going to be like a star of an artist, but yeah, I'm going to switch. I went to school for two more years doing that.
And then got into my first job and kind of working my way into motion design without even knowing motion design was like a thing. It took me 10 years to find motion design. But once I found it, I've never, never left since then. Okay, so you didn't ever, you were not a practicing chemical engineer.
No, I was two years in. Yeah, I went to my first two years. I had like no intentions doing anything other than that. And then like kind of flipped the switch and dropped it.
And then you mentioned you were at school of motion. You've also worked at imaginary forces, which is well known for many main titles that I love in digital kitchen. Okay, and then you're going to stick around in Milwaukee. All right, let's go to Brian.
I have to tell a story about Brian that he probably doesn't even, it will be, he'll be like, why do you even care about this? But one time I was moderating a panel and it was with Chris Sloan and Brian was sort of managing it. And you handed me like a pile of laminated cards. And I like never got over it because I just do my own panels and I was like, um, I have the sheet paper.
I'm good. Thank you. But it was so organized. So then it makes me laugh because now you're at this agency that says embrace the mess.
And I feel like you were not a mess in Bracer, but are you? Well, I mean, in that situation, like, and I want to caveat all of this by saying how much I love Chris Sloan. And I think when you go into projects with Chris Sloan, you have to do everything you can to sort of manage the process and sort of keep it on the rails because Chris obviously is a, he's a very energetic person. And so therefore that situation is happening.
Yeah. Yeah. So just kind of help, you know, and I think his expectation was that I would, you know, I would present you and make it as easy as possible. And so but I'm absolutely a mess in Bracer.
I think, I mean, interestingly enough, like I guess we've talked about this a lot, but I think really it's almost a subconscious thing about what creative is and how you find things. Like it's almost the most unorthodox ways are the best ways to like arrive at a solution. And I think that's, I think that's what it really comes down to. I think, you know, going to school to be a pilot, like that's very rigid, strict, there's checklists, you're, you know, checking the water and the fuel, you're certain, you want to make sure your Colton window is set to the right, so your altimeter works properly.
I mean, all those kinds of things. It's kind of avoiding that, so that seems right. Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, there's obviously a reason, but I think what I realized is that I was really like, repressing my sort of creative mind. And I think whether it's making mixtapes or playing in the band, like the creative process is this thing that's like, it's intoxicating and it's intoxicating because it's like, there's no sort of like, set way to always arrive at the result. And I think that's the piece that like, if you're going to do this and you're going to do this for any amount of time, you have to get used to the idea that like, yes, there's learnings along the way and there's procedures and there's potentially, you know, good practices that you can follow. But at the end of the day, like you're always like, learning something new on every project or you're learning something new and every interaction with a person or, you know, how you're going to sort of get from point A to point B.
And so that that's chaotic. It's messy. It's uncomfortable. And so like, if you don't embrace that, then I think you kind of go insane.
How are you guys then splitting labor? I want to say splitting labor, it's split. But it's built. But anyway, I mean, it's like strictly motion design versus live action.
And you guys kind of, you know, like leave it through or how is that working? I mean, that's kind of a great example of the beautiful mess, right? Like we kind of have like a major and minor skill, but we all kind of also just overlap in terms of interest and experiences. But I mean, we've even in the short time, I've been here and we've had a couple of projects that I think because of that overlap, we've actually approached some jobs pretty interesting.
Do you want to talk about the O'Dell's project at all, Brian? Yeah, that's great. I mean, I would agree with Ryan. I think the reality is that, I mean, to me, it comes from a place too of like, you have to love what collaboration really is.
And it's not just receiving notes. It's not just getting things from people, but it's literally like kind of, you know, in some ways like arm and arming some of these projects to a degree that makes sense. I mean, obviously there's a creative lead and there's that person who sort of takes that role. And so O'Dell's is a perfect example.
Like we, it was a really kind of a quick turn, call it not necessarily budgeted for live action, but as we as we delved into the project, we just kind of realized like, we were going to maybe do something with 3D fluid and the pores. And again, the more you talk about it and you're like, wait, it just feels like we need to figure out how to shoot this. And so with Ryan's awesome 3D skills, like he was able to basically do an animatic and kind of a pre-vis that we worked on together collaboratively, so that when I went into a shoot, like I had almost like a motion board. And so to me, that's like where, you know, the fact that we're able to kind of speak both sides of, you know, I mean, Ryan's an accomplished director too.
So it's like, it's one of those things where when you start removing yourself from the skill sets, right? It's not about shooting, editing, animating, those are the means, right? It's more about how do you problem solve and being able to fluidly move between those disciplines. And I think that's where, you know, that's certainly one of the, I guess, major philosophical tenets of Spilt is sort of being able to wear those mini capes and, you know, costumes and whatever, and be able to like, you know, fluently speak and understand both sides of the house.
And that's what makes for great collaboration. Well, and also I think coming at it just from, I have a point of view or I have a skill set, but I also, both of you saying, if we consider this project together, we actually think this is our best approach, not, first, not, I do this, you do this, so let's just silo it into it that way, but what's actually the best approach for the client. Yeah, I mean, that's an easy way to do it. And that's one of the, honestly, one of the reasons why I chose Spilt over some of the other opportunities that Ed doesn't necessarily lean into the easy prefab, kind of easily replicated structure kind of flow, you know, that's again going to that idea of just like embracing the mess.
We get ideas, we get production methods, we get creative inspiration, because we do kind of just throw it all on the table every time. And sometimes at the very beginning, it makes a little bit slower, but when everybody believes in the process, everybody trusts each other and is honestly also ego-less enough to like actually embrace friction, it sounds silly, but I really do think like being able to be in a place where friction is the engine for creativity, where you can throw an idea that you think someone might get upset about because it's not using their skill set, but they're cool with it and they add something, that kind of ego-less area where everybody works together, it is messy. There are definitely times where people's kind of like emotions get ruffled or people ask them like, why are we doing it this way? But I think at the end of the day, when you look at the final product from the outside, it looks like it was the only way to do it.
It was the only production possible method, it's the only kind of final creative solution. But if you just peeked in the door, you would see that it was not streamlined, it was not clean. But I think that's the only way you can really get to some of the cool solutions that, I mean, already that we've even seen when we're working together. Have you found that there is ever an ego-less solution to anything?
That's how I would like to come be that with you. I feel very strong about this. This is probably probably what Ed was talking about with our discussions, just about what motion design and motion graphics are. I think it's really cool because it is this, because you are working for advertising a lot of times.
But people are coming for your unique set of skills, as Brian likes to say. There is always a teeter totter, a sliding scale of managing your ego and your humility. You have to be humble because a client is asking for something that they have to be the experts in. But you also have to approach it with a certain amount of ego.
So you're not just reacting to everything that's been asked for, because the real answer might not even be a question that the client even knows to ask yet. So you have to always have this thing. And yeah, I mean, I do think like there, I wouldn't say that there's strictly no ego, but there's like a cumulative spilt ego that's starting to be built when everybody works this way together. I would sort of jump on that bandwagon as well.
I think, yeah, this is definitely a business heavily driven by ego, right? There's a lot of it. But I also think that's one of the things that I feel like Ed has done a really good job is seeking people that are willing to kind of put that in check to a degree and make it more about the team aesthetic. It's about what's the best solution, regardless of where it comes from, who's leading it, how we get there.
And I think that is part of the special sauce. I know a lot of companies say it's about our people, and it probably is. And I guess I look at it a little bit like a sports team. Again, if we're a football team, we do the same things that all the other football teams do.
We have designers, we have animators, we have shooters, we have editors, we have sound people, and all those commodities are similar. But again, what makes it special is the idea that it doesn't have to be about me, and it doesn't have to be about Ryan or Ed. And it's all about kind of this collective, let's figure it out as opposed to, hey, follow me, I have the perfect vector. I think that's always hard with, I mean, I've had that conversation a lot with different creatives about, because you're serving the interest of the client ultimately, and then also in the world of digital, you're getting sort of constant feedback, right?
So you're learning is this working? Is this not working? Do I need to tweak it? In that case, you're really, because there might be something, oh, I'm completely convinced that this will work, and then you put it out there, and it doesn't.
And so you have to retrench and fix it. So I think, but I mean, most of the people I've talked to have gotten used to that dynamic, but I think that I could see that being hard. But also, Brian, I want to ask you, I've always wondered this, what do you think it is that leads clients to agencies for certain projects? Because I just, I was just putting up something yesterday and they have multiple agencies involved, and I really was thinking about like, I wonder why they picked this agency for this thing when there's, you know, hundreds?
Yeah, I mean, well, look, the number one thing is relationship, right? So like, you have to understand, and it's not always transparent as to what that relationship is. And so like, I think that's always the sort of first place is like, do I know somebody there? Do I want to work with them?
Did I promise them, you know, my first one, if they're hanging out somewhere? I mean, it's just how it goes. The second thing, you know, I guess my feeling is like, there is a visual style to some of this where it's like, hey, I'm looking for a very, and look, we can all pretend like we're reinventing the wheel all the time, but there's such a mimicry that happens in the business, right? And so like, if I'm looking for something and somebody has it on their reel, I'm going to make, hey, they know how to make that thing for me.
And we might barely turn the color knob, but it's exactly the same thing. So it's like, I mean, you know, for better or for worse, like, that's one of the key things that, you know, that people sort of walk on to. And then, you know, I mean, I guess maybe the next thing is like, it's coolness by association, right? So there's that, there's that, what does it do for my reputation if I'm seen working with player X, you know, if I'm working with Nick G, or I'm working with, like, I'm blanking on that crazy animator guy's name who listens to the headphones really loud, you've heard from the Ryan, like he's the, he's the guy they always bring in to like, just throw me an idea.
He's that guy. There's a handful of those guys. Yeah. So I mean, so that's, I guess maybe the third thing, right, is like, what is it what is it going to do for my?
That's a very Hollywood thing, I think, kind of. But yeah, yeah. I mean, I think not to, I think imagine, of course, it's kind of that. Yeah, there's a certain amount of um, sometimes it's a cult of personality, right?
Like it's got to be associated with the heat of this person. Sometimes I was bringing it back down to, to like, yes, and what Brian is saying, I agree with all those things. And I think it's really summed up by trust. I think it's either trust that you can deliver the amount of time, trust that you're listening to me and you're going to give me something that's for me, not for you, or trust that you understand my problem in a way that I don't even know it.
Like I said, it's like even question it. And whether that's Kyle Cooper or Patrick Claire or Karen Fong or whoever it might be. Good name dropping right there. Uh huh.
Yeah, I mean, but there's truth to that, right? I've been in the room with some of them. And there is, there is a certain amount of either it's, um, hey, leading get out of my way. And they have the track record of like, well, I trust you because you did this for Netflix and for IBM and for Microsoft and maybe even the creative solutions are the same, but your track record is there.
Or it's, oh my gosh, you listened so much and you're including me and you're not pushing me away and you're saying, oh, actually, you want to know more about what my experience is like, my guidance all the time with clients is always that like there's always a meet, right? A client always has a meet, right? It's an RP and a 30 second video that's going to go in front of a YouTube video and it needs to be turned into whatever deliverables for all their social media areas. But there's a want underneath that, right?
And if you can really work on that wants, which it's a Brian's point, it really comes from like listening and research and being, you know, managing that sliding scale ego and humility. The want is the thing that I think is really what makes studios or makes brands or agencies come back to you. Like, oh, you service me in a way that wasn't just, oh, you got me a video on time in our budget, but you helped me elevate, you helped me understand. Like there's something like a second order, a second degree of like, um, like relationship that I think the good studios know how to do it.
And they don't even have to have written down as a procedure. It's just part of what they do. Yeah, I definitely heard that a lot where people say, you kind of figure out you go behind the scenes or you delve in psychologically, maybe it's not the right word, but it's almost like you go, actually, your brand is this. And so as a result, you kind of need that and they go, Oh, I never even thought of that.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I guess thing I would add to Ryan's part is like, that's the good stuff that people bring people back, right? Because sometimes I think it starts with the superficial which I was talking about. Yeah.
But then ultimately, like, like he said, the good agency is the ones that the ones that you want to work with over and over again, it really is I mean, fundamentally, like certainly from production side of things, like I feel like that's the number one thing you're selling. It's not even so much the vision or how you're going to do it. But it's the confidence and the trust that you're going to be able to deliver what you're what you're pitching or what you're selling. Yeah.
Do you want to jump in on this at all? Yeah, certainly. I mean, I think, you know, reflecting on like our position and where we are in Denver, you know, being in the middle country, not in the coast, it was a very strange thing in the beginning of, we wanted all these big jobs from local agencies and exactly what Ryan was saying, like reputation made it go that like anytime there was actually money in the Denver area, the jobs went to the coast. You know, and when there was smaller jobs, it would be like, Oh, we'll go to smoke to do that.
And I think a huge thing that Ryan was able to do. And I helped when I came in was try to turn that around to be like, we are still a big player, you know, like, yeah, we're not in LA, we're not in New York, but like, we can do all that work. And in the beginning on necessity, I feel like we needed to do a lot of different styles of work to be able to compete at a certain level and get jobs and stay healthy as a business. And I think that really turned out to be a strength in the long run where, you know, certainly you can go to Buck for their style, you go to Trica for what they do, you know, imaginary forces, anyplace like that.
But what we really had to do was like hire smartly and hire people that worked in, I would say like a symbiotic relationship with their styles and their skill set and experience to be like, yes, we can take on this 2D character animation job, or we can also take on this large live action job or a full 3D network package. I think what that came from an necessity in the beginning, and then has like turned into a major strength for us in the long run. So some of this you kind of have touched on a little bit, but as you kind of, hopefully we are now on the down, you know, the downward, what is it when you land a plane bat on the and so as you're looking forward. Oh, yeah, thanks, pilot.
What is what do you sort of see in the near future for not just in a time at marketing, since you guys do more than that, but just this sort of industry in general, what are the things you're looking at right now? I need a question. I still feel like it's kind of the wild west of like what's possible and how things can be because, I mean, literally everyone walks around with a high tech computer in their pocket, right? And like the streams for marketing and the streams for creating content are only expanding all the time, right?
Like as we see, there's certainly a lot that happens on linear, but like everyone now is pushing to create as much content on their streaming service as possible. Yeah, you know, like we're, what's that too much? It is almost too much. Yeah, I mean, like my wish list for watch list grows more than the things that I can actually watch, but there's so much content out there of everyone, you know, battling to make their impression that I feel like for us it's an incredible opportunity to be involved in like a nonlinear approach to content itself, you know, like we did some work with TLC where we, we did the show open.
We also worked on doing like bus wraps for New York City and then we did digital billboards. Yeah, I'm square. Yeah. And like that whole thing is really what interests me the most in the sense of, you know, it's no longer, I mean, it's been this way for a while, but there's no longer the sense of we can make one awesome commercial, 20 million people are going to see it, you know, Friday night, prime time TV, the old, yeah, like the data and the analytics behind things, I feel like it's so incredible.
And, and all that does is open up an opportunity for people to craft content that sends the right message to the right people at the right time. Yeah. And like, that's only going to keep expanding in my mind. Yeah, I guess I would pile onto that a little bit too, because I feel like we're in a time where like there's all these amazing new tools, right?
And so then you get, you get sort of enamored with the technology. But at the heart of it, it's still like, what's a great story? What's a great way to, I mean, Ryan, Ryan frequently talks about this, especially when doing title sequences. And I think it's a really good thing.
It's easy to lose sight of it, because you just want it to, you want it to look cool, you want it to be splashy, you want it to go through certain spigots, you want it to like move the needle, but at the end of the day, you know, that's the kind of the tenant of content is that you still have to be able to tell and craft a good story. And then, you know, to make that cool, like then you have to understand it, like, okay, how does, how do I get that out of an AI tool? How do I get that out of meta, you know, any of these places? Like, so it's still that.
And I don't know, Ryan, maybe you can, you know, sound on that because I feel like you do a good job of evangelizing. Well, I think the thing that really opened my eyes was a few years ago, when I started working at Digital Kitchen, I learned to stop calling them screens and start calling everything a canvas, because the opportunity to speak to people isn't just like on your phone, it isn't just, you know, on TV, it's everything, it's everywhere. And it's only increasing at like orders of magnitude, right? Like we're talking about VR right now, but as soon as we have Apple releasing goggles that can actually overlay information on top of the real world, the game's over, like everything's changing, immediately, right?
Like that's going to potentially become a whole other world beyond just like metaverse or beyond just like single like station implementations of it for experiential. So for me, I just started like really getting amazed by like the amount of canvases, the sizes, the ranges, the interaction with them between people. And what it really, really meant to me was there used to be a time like maybe like the 80s where like if a very famous band like the Rolling Stones or Madonna Bruce Springsteen showed up to your town, everybody stopped and everybody showed up and the pilot and says 60,000 person arena and they stopped and they watched it, right? And everybody talked about it.
That those days are gone. The fact that every single person, every single interest group and every single kind of fandom can have enough people making stuff that speaks just to them, that reflects them, that talks about their life experiences, that validates them, that justifies them and gives their experience more credence to the rest of the world. That's where I think what Brian's talking about is it's not about the technology, it's about the ability to reach everyone and be able to talk about everyone and talk to everyone. That's where I feel specifically, again, I'm always carrying the flag for motion design, motion designers because they do have to wonder about how to solve the problem, not just creatively, but because they have to work with agencies and have to work with brands.
They're thinking about the holistic kind of like campaign in a way that's very different than film and TV animation, visual effects, the music industry. That's why I feel like we're right on this cost. I think, as you said, Wild West, it is to me, we are almost in a trough. There was a moment where motion design four or five years ago was kind of starting to calcify around this idea of it's semi-40 and after effects and whatever screen you can stick something on and just kind of make it and it's a ephemeral and it disappears and it goes away and there's no real resonance.
I feel like we're poised as motion designers and animators who work with design and live action to integrate all that stuff, that the world is going to need what motion designers have known for a long time. They're going to be knocking on our doors a lot more often. I don't know if that sums up everything we were saying, but I feel like all those technology things are cool and they're exciting, but there's a reason why VR still hasn't taken yet because there hasn't been a killer application of it that has made everyone resonate with it. There hasn't been one thing.
There's a reason why your cell phone as a smartphone is the most important advice that's been created because there are multiple reasons why it resonated, but I think we're right on the cost for that. Again, motion designers are going to be the ones who I really do truly believe are going to find what that is and find a way to exploit it and use it and leverage it. I think what's interesting about that is, so tying together what Brian said with what you just said is that in light of this, all this content and content producers trying to reach everybody all the time, so then that storytelling, that emotional resonance, that connection becomes all that much more important because if you can't connect, then there's nothing and you're fighting such a huge battle to even break through it all. If you can't do that, then there's not even a point to putting it out there.
Not people will certainly put it out there. That's just noise. It's so much noise. I mean, so to find something that actually breaks there and connects with people I think is the key and it's not easy.
Well, I think a great example too is even if you go back to movies, it's not enough to what Brian was saying is to just be cool or just be beautiful and I point specifically to the movie everywhere all at once. Maybe the most impactful movie for me in the last 10 years, it was not just this giant, what looked like a huge blockbuster about really nine VFX artists worked on it for two years. It had a resonant story that was something that could take a specific viewpoint and then they made it universal. They made a specific type of person, a specific character, a specific actress who's never had a chance to act in this way and they showed how her emotions and her experience and the character is universal to everyone and all the other cool stuff, the razzle-dazzle, the editing, the cool visual effects, the multi-verse storytelling, all that stuff was great to bring you to the yard, but once you're there, it goes back to those true things like how can you make someone care, how to get to truth, how to make something universal, the real tenets of storytelling and all those people, a lot of those people were motion designers or have used motion design before they'd say they were VFX or TV animators.
So that's like a real world practical example that a small budget movie is the breakout of the year. Yeah, yes, I agree. So sort of along those lines, I think this ties into everything you just said, right? Although honestly, I haven't even heard about Apple Goggles, which kind of terrifies me.
We're all going to be walking around like Terminator living in like a half metaverse, it's a little scary, but- Wait till they're context, when you're up to that. Somebody just, I just saw something where people have chips in their hand and they're exchanging identity like business cards. Anyway, this is how you know you're getting really old when you're like, oh, hell no, to the chips in my hand. But what do you think about- You already have one, no.
Yeah, you already have it. Five G put it there. Yeah, right. What do you think about like web three metaverse NFTs?
I feel like those have been the buzzwords that people have been talking to me about in the past year or two, although I have to say like, because Ryan, what you were saying is a little bit adjacent to all that. And I wonder if, not too much web three, but I wonder if what I've seen to five metaverse I've been kind of unimpressed with. So I just sort of wonder, are these things real? Are they just sort of buzzwords?
Do you think that those are things that marketers and designers really have to think about? Absolutely. I absolutely think they have to be in the same way if you went whatever it was. I don't know when credit cards became ubiquitous, but for the five years before that, and people are going up to a counter at a grocery store and they're still writing checks and another person had a credit card.
I feel like we're not seeing transitory phase where everything seems crazy because- Because I'm a check person right now. I'm not saying that for sure, but you might want to think about opening up a credit card account. Okay. I am not like an advocate for like all in disrupt everything with web three and NFTs and Bitcoin and all that.
But I do think that there's going to be a certain amount of like the plumbing for everyday transactions at some point will be powered somewhat if not entirely by some of that technology. I do think at the same time that you have to look at who's pushing the current flavor of all that. I think NFTs are wildly interesting. I think they're also potentially, you know, could create or at any time because the entire like backing of this like art movement is really driven on speculation.
That's not unlike options trading, which we can have another conversation about like kind of the reality of that. But at the end of the day, the idea that an artist can create something controlled distribution can create an audience, can create value from digital work that previously was always thought as a femoral and disposable and just a means to an end. I'm excited about that. All the other kind of things around it politically and emotionally like those will change day to day.
But when one artist who normally had to work, you know, 60 hours a week to make a certain money could spend two days and make that money and then control that audience. And I think opening up the world of what we used to think was a commodity to being considered art to me, that's important. I think also it's kind of like, if you think back when I think it was Twitter showed up at Southline and it was Twitter, maybe it was four square and either of those technologies were an Uber too, actually. And then all the sudden people were like, what is this?
Do we need this? Why do we need this? And then now if you think back, like you look at those things every day, it doesn't have so much four square, but Twitter definitely is still here and Uber is, you know, lift all that rideshairs. Those things have integrated in a very short timeframe where they're totally innovated.
You just don't know. So they're throwing everything against the wall and see what emerges from that. That's exactly what I was going to say. It's like, I think, you know, you look at the list you have there and it's like, okay, there's whatever, five or six things.
And of that five or six things, perhaps two or three of them will end up being sort of the call them the mantle moving forward, right? And whereas, and so like, and you know, in the case of like a metaverse, like it's so fledgling and in terms of like what the experience is like, yeah, they just don't have the content there. I mean, I remember when I was still letting day to day and it was like, everything was going to be stereoscopic 3D, right? And so we had to like explore all of this technology and it's like, it's going to be tomorrow.
We're going to use new cameras. We're going to need all this workflow. And guess what? It didn't quite hit that way, right?
So like, you know, you still you still maybe go experience stereoscopic 3D for certain things, but it's like, it is not the widespread call of the, I mean, I guess pop culture and culture and human communication is that way, right? Like it's ever evolving. And so like, these things that sort of feel like they're the absolute path of the future, like maybe, and but you have to take seriously and you have to, you have to explore what it means and how to like leverage it in, in service of telling the story, right? So I think that's, that's the piece like, as long as you don't lose sight of like, that's our principle guiding North Star is that still has to be about effective communication and storytelling, and then figuring out how, how it sort of goes through that pipeline of meta or, you know, whatever, you know, how best detail that story, how best to distribute back content to tell that story.
Yeah. Yeah. And ultimately, I feel like it's, it's another like, spoke on the hub of the wheel, right? Like it's another tool for us to use another way to tell the story.
And I think as both guys have said, like, some things will stick and some things will fall by the wayside and become like the Myspace of new technology. But like, it is, it is a cool and interesting world to be in, you know, and like, I know plenty of people that are making NFTs and like some that are like, I'm not even going to freelance anymore. Like, I'm just doing that and they've gone all in. And it's great.
And if they can continue to do that, I think it's awesome. And it's also, as Ryan said, it's wonderful that they're actually supported as artists instead of contractors for a company to help make an ad that's going to go out for a month and then disappear. It is one of those things, a crew value back to them necessarily. Yeah, but it is one of those things where time will tell and certainly someone's going to stick and it's going to continue to evolve and spot new things and other things will eventually fall by the wayside.
Yeah, I think it speaks to how powerful and all consuming like marketing has become from back when like internet was just becoming a thing because basically what we're doing right now is we're, we're arguing about whether or not like the plumbing is going to be worthwhile 10 years from now or 20 years from now. It's the equivalent of like gambling or speculate on whether like TCP IP protocol or like RSS feeds, we're going to be here 10 years from now. Like, we're basically just like somehow someone decided to take those things and market them as if something is going to replace like the rest of the economy where it's like, these are just things that have to be built on and like applications created for them. But somehow somewhere along the way, I was like, you know what we can do is we can make a lot of money on all the exchange rates and trading all these things if we hype up all of the kind of like underlying plumbing for it.
So it's a weird time to be involved because everybody's like, so what do you think about Bitcoin? I'm like, what do you mean? Like, what do you mean? What do you think about dows?
Like, what do you mean? Like, what part of it? Like it's, it's a buzz word that people just hear because it's being kind of marketed right now underneath the surface. There's a lot of very interesting things that in five years, you may not even know that you're using this stuff, but it's powering everything, you know, great example, the new Photoshop came out yesterday.
And there is a setting in the new Photoshop that you can literally go to where you normally save something and says, learn how to save for NFTs. Like, to me, that just proves like how crazy the world we're in right now is like, nobody even knows what it is yet, but we're kind of like trading people's like financial futures on whether or not it will work, which is, you know, again, I think just speaks to the power of marketing right now. Yeah, can I throw this will be my last topic, but and it's a complete curveball. So let's try it.
And if it doesn't work, I'll cut it. So, okay, it's really a curveball. But so we were, I was joking with you about you were named dropping like Patrick Claire and Karen Fong. And the reason I laugh is because it's a very specific group of people that even finds that name dropping, right?
Like, I'm not that many people who know those people are. I mean, there's no such thing as MoGraph famous. I mean, every little cult has its own name dropping, but in that one, this is a very specific one. But along those lines, what is the, what's some of the coolest main titles you've seen lately?
I'll start with Ryan, but Ed, and Brian, feel free to jump in. Um, I think severance takes the kick. I love severance. So cool.
And that guy's so like out of the blue, that's actually the reason the reason why I would say it is that this might be controversial saying people like it, but I really think there's not a lot of actually good title sequences right now. And I have to count it up. I think there's a lot of beautiful title sequences. I think there's a lot of title sequences that look like they're very, very hard to achieve.
And I respect the work and the craftsmanship that goes into them. But I don't think there's a lot of title sequences that actually do the job of what it's supposed to do, right? Like a, it's supposed to make you want to watch the show and ask questions about it. When you come back to it, you want, you should want to watch it again, because it should offer more based on the previous episode or the previous movie that came before it.
Um, I think a lot of times because the nature of motion design is so much, um, geared into like, we're working for advertising, we're trying to solve a problem, we're trying to sell a product or a service. Then when you finally get to the point where you get to do a title sequence, you're like, this is the one for me. And I've been gifted it myself, but you do get like probably too far on that ego scale. Um, but when I watched severance, not only was it like very different, it wasn't just, um, beautifully designed type being slid back and forth.
It wasn't editorial, where it was just like random shots to together to create meaning. And it wasn't a 3D camera just moving through like static 3D models with type point up. It was, it looked unique, but it, it made me lean in and be like, what the heck is this show? And it added, it added questions that wouldn't be solved unless I continue to watch the show.
And I was rewarded for watching the show every time I came back to it. Um, so for me, I think, um, in the last four or five years, it's like the standout title sequence. Yeah, that is a very good one. Ryan, do you have one?
Yeah, I'm kind of my brand. Unfortunately, I feel like mine aren't the most current, you know, I mean, I mean, I would always circle back on the true detective stuff. I just feel like those titles were groundbreaking and so widely imitated. Yeah, that's it.
I mean, I think that's what it is. It's almost like the, you know, to use a musical parlance, you know, it's like when Bob Dylan wrote something and then everybody tried to, you know, copy it or, you know, when you're, when you're talking about sort of a voice of a generation that then spawns all of these like imitators. I mean, I, but I think, I think also like, you know, it was, there was some of what Ryan's talking about, though, is like it, it was intriguing because it made you want to know more about the show. It certainly the way it was presented.
There was all these sort of like hidden things where you watch title sequence three or five times and you're still finding new things. And so I guess those are the kinds of title sequences that excite me and then I kind of, and I think the other thing that we're, at least we're encountering too, is like, it's hard to actually get people to give content time to a real title sequence anymore. Like, it was so much of where it is. It's like, oh, you get a five second title.
Yeah. Or you can get by Netflix. Yeah. Those are Patrick Clay, all right, but you're detective.
Yes. Yeah. Ed, you have one. Yeah, I do.
Like, and I don't know that both of them are super relevant. I mean, it's one of the like, so James Bond titles originally is like, what made me want to do motion design work, you know, like back when they were just all film and composite and nothing digital. I think there's two things that I really, truly love right now. One is Ozark because mentally, like when you see that, oh, with like the four images in there, you're like, I am trying to already solve the problem in my head of like, what's going to happen?
Why are these four little white silhouetted images being shown to me now? And what am I going to understand later on when I see it? And this is from like 2000 or yeah, 2020, but I love the morning show titles. Actually, that is one of the most click down post we've ever done already for those morning show titles.
To me, it's just it's um, it's an abstract way of telling the story and the tension and everything that you're going to see, but it's literally circles and dots. And it's still a great story and it's still interesting to watch. Yeah, those are elastic, those are really good. And I just add one thing to that too, that's important is that to me, the stand out person in the last three or four years, and it's telling to me that that we can name drop Patrick Clare or we can name drop Kyle Cooper, but that's Hazel Baird at Elastic and the run that Hazel has been on in the last five or six years.
I feel like it points to some of the inequities actually just in the industry that Hazel's name and voice and her ability to do wildly different title sequences that serve the show and not just have a look of like a designer or director. I think it's been unheralded that she she has not been celebrated in a way that I think some of the other people that we talked about previously, it makes me wonder why because when I look at something like Andy Warhol Diaries, when I look at what should be just talked about, like the run that she's had the title sequences, the variety of American Horror Story, like it has been I think honestly unprecedented the range and the amount of high caliber work with a lot of different collabbers and a lot of different things. And I'd love to see more people, the same way we just said, oh, that's Patrick Clare, but he worked at Elastic. But we just said, oh, the thing Hazel did is elastic but not Hazel.
There's something interesting to uncover in all of that because I think it's her body of work is astounding to me right now. I think it's more a matter of what I remember and what I don't. And there is a Hazel Baird, I believe that's up for an Emmy right now. I'll have to look it up.
Yeah, I was just going to throw in that I love the white lotus main titles. But it might be because I love the music so much, but the titles are also beautiful. I feel like that's one of those ones. Those main titles are kind of like eh, but I know what you mean, like the music.
There's something about the construct of it and I guess now because it's almost like the equity of the show itself. So it's almost like it worked in kind of a first order, right? Like instead of the title sequence building sort of that curiosity, it's almost like the show made all of this stuff happen. And then it's like, okay, every time you hear that crazy keyboard sound like, I mean, I'm transported into this.
And there's nostalgia to it. That's a familiarity to it, right? Like you see that and you know you're about to hop into something good, which is really cool. I mean, it's the same thing as like hearing Star Wars music open up in the main title and you're like, yeah, like this is going to be awesome.
So that's why I go to what I was saying before is I think that that that's another one that it is a cultural like touchstone, right? Like the second you hear the music and you see that red glow with a little bit of that fonts, not only does it echo back to what the show's like a title sequence and opening title sequence, it's whole job is to be the palette cleanser from wherever you came before to when you're about to sit down and take something in, right? If it's a movie theater, you're getting your popcorn, you're sitting down, you're walking, you're trying to forget about the day and title sequence. It clears the palette, it sets the tone for a TV show.
You couldn't ask for something better that technically was it all that difficult? Probably anybody with that for me to animate it, right? Like stylistically, is anything new? No, it's literally referencing like the covers of those 80s like dime store like novels, but it immediately in a short amount of time.
And honestly, I don't know if I ever skip those titles because they are brief, they are, but it feels integral to the experience to just let it soak over. To me, that's a great title sequence. It may not be difficult to make, but it just it does everything you were asking for it to do as a showrunner or a director of something. What do you think about main on end titles?
Because you're going to be like, again, page you are the check writer at the grocery store, but I didn't even, I mean, I knew there was main on end, but I didn't know that what they were called until really like last week, but that seems to not serve what you're saying, right? I think the titles are at the end, like, why? I mean, they're built to honor the people who made a credit, right? Opening title is a set the tone, main on end is to celebrate the talent.
And again, it's that sliding scale of like, okay, well, that's the as a motion designer, if you get a chance to make a main on end, that's like the Super Bowl, right? Like, that's like, oh, my God, I'm getting a chance to make my thing. But at the same time, I think there's a lot of them that just my big problem with main on end titles is that the majority of them now are just victory lap sequences. They are like literally, like, I just watched the movie pray, loved it, best part of the movie, I think almost maybe better than the first one, but best one since they made the first one.
And the title sequence stylistically are interesting. It's this like kind of like, like Native American art, and it's really kind of poppy in terms of the animation style. But all it literally does is tell the same story that you just watched, but in this other style. And I literally like tune out, like, I'm literally like, oh, like, okay, this time for me to walk away because it's not adding anything new to the experience, and it's also not celebrating the talent.
It's just like, cool, we got a little bit of time, a little bit of money. What's the thing we can do victory lap? Just like we say everything we just said. So to me, I agree, like, it almost feels like it's not certain purpose.
No matter how beautiful it might be, or thoughtful it might have been. Then there's a Lego, Lego 2 movie, and that is spectacular. Amazing. I was thinking of main on ends when they don't like, I think like it was one of the Disney plus, I think it was, anyway, where there was only main on end.
There wasn't main titles. That was the moment I was thinking where I'm like, I don't, I want there to be a main title. And then find what you're going to do with your main on ends, but all right, I'm done. Anything else you guys?
Thank you. Yeah, no, seriously. Thank you. This has been, I was looking forward to talking to you because you're always a really energetic person.
So like, I love that part. So yeah, no, it was really fun. I really enjoyed it. And thank you for indulging my main titles, conversation, which I did not prep before.
You did a very good job with it. Nice work. We can talk about that. Oh, yeah.
I would throw in on that as like American hard story to me has always been like the penultimate, like it's fresh every time, but it's the same every time. Like you can expect it, but you, but you like, you know, you're getting introduced to something new that you're going to dive into. And I it's what season eight now and it still is an amazing title sequence. I'm not note.
Not note. I'm going to end. Thank you guys so much. It was awesome talking to you.
I really enjoyed it. Have a great day. Thank you so much. You too.
Thank you page. Bye guys. Okay, bye bye. That's it for this episode of the daily grief podcast.
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