Episode 212 - What A Plot Is Not

Welcome to Sitcom Geeks, I'm Dave Cohen and I'm James Carey. And this is episode 212 of Sitcom Geeks. We take 212 episodes in that we've discussed, most of the things that could be discussed about Sitcom, but actually there's one subject we haven't talked about for a long, long time. I was sort of trawling through the back catalogue and I noticed amazingly because it's something we're both really interested in and it is plot.

What is a plot or rather what isn't a plot I think is what we're going to be. What is a plot not? What is a plot not? That's a really, that's a govian starting point.

This is something, there's a few chapters about plotting in my new book, The Complete Comedy Writer. And there's a lot more in it than there was in the first draft I did with that, but partly because I realized there was a lot more to it than what I thought, partly through spending so much time talking to James, who is I think probably one of the great experts in the country are Sitcom Plotting. I think, wow, I've worked with a lot of plotters and James is pretty well therey. I mean, you might think, oh, well, that's just the two of them.

He's bound to say that, but actually, you know, James is really, I think, you know, plotting is, it's been a thing that's sort of got you a ton of work really and people are always impressed by your plotting, I think. Well, that's very kind. I'm going to have to stop you before you properly flat to me. And so, obviously, I'm an English male, so I can't take a compliment.

I look back in the archive and we last talked about plotting on about episode 137 or something, 127 it was, which was quite some time ago. I have subsequently done a free webinar on it. And if you want to join that webinar, you can watch that back for free if you join my mailing list. So go to my blog, sitcom.com.

But I just want to kick off by talking about some of that introductory material, because there are some really massive misconceptions about what is a plot and what a plot, I'm afraid, is not. And I think we've found this a lot in our Sitcom scripts that we've read. So we read quite a few scripts a year or so ago for our competition we were doing and we continue to read scripts. And plotting is the one big problem with scripts.

I think that's fair to say, isn't it? Definitely. It's overall, and there are many reasons which we'll go into, but and there are so many ways to get it wrong. So, that's it sort of feels like something that people feel people have not put enough work into.

And I think that's part of it, because I don't necessarily know what the work is that they have to do. So hopefully you can shine a bit of light on that. Yeah, so some starting points just around off that thought though. So quite often we'll read a sitcom script that has an interesting situation and you think, oh, that would be cool.

And it's very hard to judge from a script whether it would or wouldn't be a good situation for a sitcom, because you could probably make anything work if you've got the right plot on the right characters. And then often we read really good characters as well. And quite often there are jokes, but there isn't a plot. The plot has gone AWOL.

And so here are my sort of four things, sorry, three things to begin with about what a plot is not. And I think one big misconception is a plot is not stuff happening. So, you know, a road trip goes wrong. You know, we lose the map, we can't get the internet, we're now lost, flat tire.

Those are a series of events that are happening, but they do not constitute a plot. They are challenges, they're beats, we could use them, but they are very much things happening to your characters as well. So they're an even worse starting point, because in a way, there are things often over which your characters have no control. Of course, my brain is already thinking, if your characters are lost, well, that may be fine, because one of your characters who said they brought a map with them hasn't done that and they were specifically asked to do it and they didn't do it because they're forgetful and they resented the fact that they were accused of being forgetful, but they then forgot.

So, you know, you can turn these things into character moments, but they don't really make a plot that's just sort of stuff happening. I suppose in a sense, could you argue that the character is acting, that the character is being proactive by not necessarily on purpose, but having been insulted about being the one who always forgets that the map, they almost kind of deliberately forget the map. I suppose it says, I'm trying to get quite a clear distinction here of how that would be, you know, obviously you are going to come on to what plot is, but could it possibly be that a character's error then, we would consider that to be a plot? Well, the plot I would say is, well, where are they going?

Why is our hero, heroine, why are our hot couple jumping in a car and going somewhere? What is the plot? They're not just going on a trip to the shops to buy a loaf of bread or to buy some milk because they run out of milk because that's kind of boring and doesn't really say anything at all. So, we're looking for a plot which is going to give us enough to get us through an episode.

It is a quest, and we'll get on to that in a moment when we think about what is a plot. Maybe they're going to visit a relative, the one who doesn't really want to go and visit the relative has subconsciously or passively accidentally on purpose forgotten the map, which could potentially be a plot, I suppose. Yes, exactly. So, there was a plot version of a thing happening, but in a way we're starting in the wrong place.

The other thing is like a plot is not an event, so it's easy to think of something big happening or even a party or a hostage situation or an inspector can't. Ah, your favourite. Yes, or it's a there's going to be a fire drill. And what is that?

What is that? What is that giving you? That's not really a plot. That's something that is happening.

It may have consequences, but it's still not quite a plotty enough. And again, we'll get on to how we can make that a plot in a moment. But the third one whilst we're on what a plot is not is I think people think plot is a big reveal. So discovering something or discovering something about someone or a long lost brother shows up or an old diary that was hidden in the attic has come to light.

That might turn into a plot, but it isn't actually a plot. It's, you know, what does this represent? What is it doing? What plot is it going to give us but in itself is not a plot.

And so sometimes, and you get this on scene levels as well, where when is a scene not a scene, a character revealing something that has happened, doesn't actually give you enough for a scene. It is, how does that revelation change the action of the character? How does it modify the plan of the protagonist in that scene? So that they've gone into the scene with one plan.

Information is given to them by another character. And then, okay, now what are we going to do? Oh, I thought the map was in the glove compartment and it isn't. Okay, so now we're going to have to stop and ask for directions from local people whose accents I simply don't understand.

So now new plan, we were plan A, sat now, that doesn't work, plan B, map, that's not there, plan C. So that little event has given you something, but this idea that something is revealed, we discover who somebody really is. That's again, that's not really a plot. That's that's revelation.

And I think I'm currently writing a murder mystery at the moment, and it's really hard to make sure that all of your scenes aren't just detectives discovering what happened before the episode started. You really need to get your detective to lead and drive the investigation. And that is really hard because you've sort of got all of these characters sort of whirring around and back story, and you're trying to tease it out, but you need to do it in a way that it is part of the quest of the hero who is the detective in this situation. So it's already sounding very complicated, isn't it?

And that's why this is very hard to get our heads around. But we'll have some clarity about what a plot is in a moment. But Dave, do you want to come in on any of them? Yeah, I mean, first thing I would say, I'd just like to add one more thing.

And this is something that I have said many times, but it can't be repeated enough. The other thing that a plot is not. And it's a common mistake that the plot is not the premise of the show. So the premise, and this is we do get a lot of scripts where the premise is we've got a character, let's say it's David Brent type character, you know, complete that somebody who's completely lacking in self-awareness, they might be really well drawn character.

But then the whole episode hinges on the complete self-awareness. But it sort of doesn't really, that's the thing that's there, and that's in the background and that's driving the character. But it's not the actual, it's not this week's story, it's how the character always responds. And it's, you know, this is partly why it is very tricky, isn't it?

Because that's a sort of subtle distinction, isn't it? It's not easy to just say, oh, well, that's, you know, Basil Forti is a liar. He's always a liar, or he's a snob. But in this week's episode, he's going to be putting some money on the horses and...

And then lie about it, yeah, it's not about it, no about it. But the underlying thing is, you know, he just wants the place to be, how he wants it to be, and you know, in his perfect world he's able to do. I mean, it's not the better thing, maybe not such a good example, but that, you know, when he just sort of doesn't like that, the pretentious Moir character who comes along because he's the wrong sort of customer. So he tries to do everything to get this customer to leave, you know, but that still, there is a plot going on there that isn't just he's a snob.

So, but it is a finder. How do you kind of come do you come do with that distinction? It's a tricky one because I think sometimes we're going back to pilot episodes and what they are and that kind of thing. And I, in general, your first episode needs to demonstrate what sort of show you have.

And it's the hardest episode to write, absolutely no doubt. But if you've got a sitcom that you want to be set in a fire station, and the whole episode is about one of the characters applying to become a fireman and completing the training and then turning up at the fire station, well, then you've not given us any sense of what the show actually is because if you're thinking the whole show is going to be set in a fire station, we've already been there. So this is kind of not setting up or whether or if it's like the business collapses and somebody goes off as a result of the episode, they've been fired and they've, you know, at the end of the episode they're going to go off and start a whole new life for themselves. Well, you've just turned the premise of their breakdown or end into the plot of the first episode, but it doesn't give you, doesn't show you what the episode is actually going to be.

So you've just got lots of these things to line up to make sure that what you're doing is showing what the show actually is. So if we just talk positively about what the plot is, and hopefully this will become a bit more obvious. What is a plot? What is a plot?

A plot? So I would say a plot is a quest. It is a quest for one or more of your characters. And therefore, you may need an A plot, a B plot and a C plot so that all of your characters have got something to do.

And your your A plot may involve your two main characters in their relationship and your B plot may involve two other characters in some kind of rivalry and your C plot might involve two or three other characters. So they're all involved in someone's quest. And so you need a plot which is, for example, lose weight, run a 5k, steal a magic amulet, get your sister to apologise. You know, all of those things, you know, which is like a clear tangible thing about what they are trying to achieve, which they think will make them happy or reorder the universe in some sort of way that will give them satisfaction.

And of course, it doesn't. And we're going to go through the same old rigmarole again. And I think those are the kinds of stories where when you see them, I mean, I just, it sounds like it's basically the same episode every week. It is.

I've just watched, when I watch series 10 of Modern Family, which has just dropped on Disney Plus, I think, when I watched episode two or three, I just thought, oh, that was great. That was just like series one. Even though everyone's 10 years older, everyone's still in it. They're all having the same arguments.

They're all having the same discussions. In this particular episode, Cam and Mitch are basically saying, are we sure that Manny's girlfriend isn't imaginary? Because you know, this Canadian girlfriend was a euphemism for I'm gay, because both Cam and I both had Canadian girlfriends who actually didn't exist. And so in the end, it came that he really did have a Canadian girlfriend.

But all the arguments that were going on around about Phil Dunphy desperate for his father-in-law's approval, all that kind of stuff. And it was just like, this is why I love this show. It's the same. You know, it's the same.

So in a way, that's kind of a feature, not a bargain. I think sometimes with a plot, people are trying to change everything. But actually, just what you want to do is give your hero or heroine a very simple quest to fulfill. And I think that that is what we need to do.

I think that there's some at this point as well, it's worth mentioning. I mean, obviously, we are talking about plot. This episode of Combeaks is all about plot. But it is also about character.

And the reason we separate them out is because it's just a little bit easier. You know, when you are coming up with plots, you want them to do this and you want to do that and the other. But you kind of, especially when you're creating a new show as well, and you're kind of developing a character. And one of the ways that you will help to define your character will be through coming up with stories for them.

And so when some people say, oh, sick comments, all about character, and other people say, oh, it's all about story. Well, actually, as far as I can see, it's impossible to kind of pull the two apart really. Well, I mean, not impossible. Well, Robert McKee, story is character.

There you go. 500 pounds, please. And the book is that thick as well. He must have put it in 5,000 points to make it last time on.

But he needs to because we don't listen. We don't listen after page one to three hundred. But that's interesting. So what you're saying, and basically, you're just looking at it simply form, you know, your character wants two things.

They want to be, they want to have enough to get by to be living on. They want to, you know, they want to be able to survive. And they may want a little bit more than that. And they want, and that's the external goal.

And they just want people to accept them or like them more than they do. And that's the internal goal. And that was the classic girl you mentioned, you know, like Phil Dunphy's story every week is invariably something that is is it's a thing. And it's about him and his real estate and his image of himself as the superdad.

But the external, the internal, which is all the way there, as you said, James, it's in series one, episode one and series eight, episode 10 or whatever else is, you know, it's all that every episode. I want my father-in-law to respect me. And it's comedy. And it's never going to happen.

And I think, and I do remember the one, there is the one episode, I think, I've got a series nine or 10 or something, where Phil does something and wins the respect of that. And it's that one I've heard about it so much. We all, we all totally lose respect for him at that point, because he's just so kind of, he does it with such bad grace and you sort of think, well, let's go back to the Phil who is just trying too hard because we sort of like him a bit more. So, you know, when you're on episode 240, when you get the luxury of being at that place, you can afford to break out of what the character is.

But for the first 239 episodes, you know, he is that. So that's what the point of the quest lose weight. Yeah, that's a great thing. Okay, if I lose weight, people will find me attractive and I will be loved, not necessarily.

It's you're losing weight, not changing your personality. So that's a kind of, that's how the internal goal of the person is affecting the story. But yeah, so you're prompting a physical story on that. I am going to lose weight.

And probably the fact that you have this in your head that I am losing weight, not because I'm overweight or whatever, but I just think because for all the wrong reasons, whatever, because then I'll be able to just kick sand in the face of whatever that person or whatever, or the women are like me more, you know, that's not going to happen just by you losing weight. So yeah, no, and that's, and so therefore that's the second thing is the quest should be based on their complicated wants and desires. So why do they want to lose weight? Is it about being slimmer?

Is it about self image? Is it about putting one over on someone else and not wanting to be? I mean, you should know why your character wants to lose weight? What sort of what would cause this character to do that?

Is that an important thing for them? And it may not be a good story for this particular episode, but think why is the hero going off to steal a magic amulet? Is it so that he can kill the dragon and save the princess because he really loves the princess or because he wants to be known as the brave knight? And he actually, you know, the princess can be pretty generic for all he cares.

It doesn't really matter. It's not about the princess. Or is it that his father doesn't respect him and a bit like I've just rewatched Lord of the Rings and the massive favoritism of the student of Gondor for Boromir over Faramere, even though Boromir was weak and was found wanting. The younger son was desperate to get his father's approval and just does this heroically bonkers, suicidal charge, you know, at the orcs and the goblins.

And so there are reasons why. So the quest should be based on their complicated wants and desires. So once you've thought of something for them to do, ask yourself, why are they doing it? Is this a really good test of that primary characteristic that we love this character for or that we're interested in this character for?

You know, why does your character want to get 80% in a test? Is it because Susie got 79% and I want to get one more than her? Or is it because I have to, if I don't do this, I can't be a doctor. And if I'm not a doctor, I can't help people because all I want to do is help people.

And that's the only way I can think of doing it. Or, you know, so all of these quests are for all kinds of different reasons. So you just want to be really clear about why is your character doing this? Because they need to really want it because otherwise anyone would give up after a while.

If they don't really want to do this thing, after about eight minutes and they failed once and about to fail again, they would they pack it in. So why does this matter so much to them and why are they going to put themselves to absolute hell to get 80% in that test or to steal the magic amulet and crawl through the caves and fight off all the bats and then, you know, kill the goblin king so that he can get the amulet. I think that's a really good point. And I think I want to, something that we talk about when we talk about big overall what's your show going to be about.

The big question we always say is why me? Why am I the only person who can write this show? But let's break that down a bit smaller. You want to be doing that when you're thinking of plots.

And so a kind of smaller version of that might be, you know, what did I do once to try and impress somebody that was so ridiculous? And from that, you might find a really nice comic. I'm thinking of a pair of trousers. You know what I mean?

I really thought those trousers made me look amazing. And that's a story. I mean, that's like, would your character wear a pair of trousers that seemed like a good idea at the time in TK Max? I bought a pair of trousers.

They're a pair of Paul Smith trousers. And I only bought them because they were in TK Max reduced from 112 to 11 pounds. I mean, they're almost unwearable and they only just about fit and they look ridiculous. But I couldn't resist a bargain.

And that's why I bought them. I've never really wanted to own Paul Smith clothing. It's not really my brand, my thing. But I have very big problems resisting yellow label food in Tesco's.

If it's discounted, I suddenly want it because I'm getting a bargain. So I can't imagine that. I mean, I can certainly think of, I was remembering just the other day, a particular time when I was starting on a new show and met some new writers and things and went to the pub afterwards and knew that, you know, I couldn't really stay there much, much longer. And then cut to 1am and the very far end of the Northern line, I'm being woken up by a guard.

I've missed my spot slot. I'm in High Barnet or somewhere and I'm trying to get to Camden Town. I remember that I just drank and drank because, you know, that was the thing you had to do. And I'm sure I was very garrulous and effusive and the light and soul of the party.

But some boy did I pay for that. So that's a sort of, that's my personal story. That's great. So that's taking an event.

I missed my stop. It's like, so what? Why did you miss it? What were you doing?

Who are you trying to impress? You know, and then what happened? And how did that stop you going forward? I have a similar story of a guy I was at university with who fell asleep on a train and woke up in a railway siding in Darlington.

And he was told that if he'd fallen asleep on the train before, it would be non-stop to Brister from Newcastle, which is where he got home. Darlington, but it doesn't sound quite so bad when I realized that he would probably talk about someone from Durham. Yes, that's right. So I was at University of Durham.

This guy had been about for a big night in Newcastle, fallen asleep on the train and the train had been switched off and they hadn't cleared it and he was still on it. But they did say to him, it's a good job. He didn't do this yesterday because that was a non-stop to Brister and you literally wouldn't be able to get off. So I think you'd be missing a few lectures that next day.

So we've got these things for our characters to do. There's quests that they really want to do for character-based reasons. But then here's the next thing, which I've only recently been discovering. The quest should be attempted according to their own character or personality.

So if your character is over-cranked and very organized, they will assume that being organized will mean that they can get it. If your character is a hopeless romantic, they will assume that everything will just fall into place but they just need to get themselves into the right mood or they can talk somebody around. So people try to achieve their quest in a way that is consistent with their own character. They wouldn't try to do it as you would do it.

How would they try to fulfill that goal? Because that is probably the wrong way to do it and they're going to learn a bit about how they do things and about themselves through the course of trying and failing because they just don't understand why. Then conversely, the other characters recommend doing something in a completely different way. I've really noticed this now, once you see it, you can't unsee it.

When somebody asks for advice about how to do something, if you're a list maker, you would say to this person, okay, what you need to do is you need to make a company, sit down and make a list. You need to make a really big long list. Because that's what they would do. But if you're not a list maker, that way of doing things is probably not going to be very helpful, even if it's the right thing to do.

So your other characters may have good advice about how to achieve this goal. But that's also based on how they would go about it too. So who should they listen to? Who do they trust?

So that's when it starts getting extremely complicated. And that's where the originality comes in. You've got all of these moving parts, which is why every sitcom episode is a symphony. There are only a certain number of notes, certain number of instruments.

How is it that we've got millions of symphonies and millions more to be written? Because the complexity means that you get endless infinites. So how your character goes about their quest is part of the quest. And it's consistent with how they would do it, not how you would do it.

And that's quite a big distinction. Interestingly, and again, I'm really watching The Gilmore Girls, which I know you haven't seen, but one of the main characters that I thought is about six or seven episodes at the end of season three or four is about to go to college. And she is the ultimate list maker, the pros and cons. The whole thing is about the various pros and cons of which college she wants to go to.

But in the end, she ends up at the place that's all the cons, but there's one pro that kind of over super-seesical. It's beautifully done. It manages to tie in with everything from series one, episode one. But you're right.

And I'm just really enjoying watching how the other character who never makes lists and always acts impulsively is really, really trying hard to not do the opposite thing and just say, you're doing this. And they end up doing that. So that's kind of interesting. I mean, I'm trying to think if you've got a specific example that you could give us that will be familiar to us maybe or other characters.

In how a character goes about doing the thing. I suppose I should be able to really, shouldn't I? I don't know. In a way, it's so embedded in how a sitcom is written that it's almost impossible to say.

If I may dare mention the Go-Free word as in the birthdays, the Monopoly birthdays. So Claire wants, doesn't want a fuss. She doesn't want people to know that she's another year older. She doesn't like it.

Phil, as we've already established, he wants to be the greatest dad, the greatest husband, the greatest son-in-law. And so this is his chance to be the greatest husband, the big party, which of course is the exact opposite of what she wants. So they're both, he is proactively being Phil in his preparation of that birthday. And so that just goes completely against what Claire wants.

And it's going to upset the father-in-law as well, across Claire's upset. And so, and I can't remember, I know the kids, there's a couple of at least two of the kids that involved in the plot, but I think that's probably quite a good example of what you've just been saying. Yeah, I mean, so if your character is charming and they find themselves charming, they're going to try to charm their way through the problem and discover that this problem that they've got, Plan A, charm your way out of it, isn't going to work. And then they may turn to another character for advice.

She will give them a Plan B. And firstly, Plan A has already made it worse. Charming someone has actually meant that the goal has become bigger and higher and closer. And the deadline has moved forward because this guy seems to be so short, you know what I mean?

So for example, character has exam and doesn't particularly want to do it, goes in to say, it's all going to be fine. And then they say, oh, actually, we're moving it forward by day or two, we weren't going to, but you seem so sure that you've completely got this. Then that's going to be all right, isn't it? It's like, oh, okay, so his Plan A has now made it worse.

So now what's he going to do? He's going to say, okay, get a list, sit down, make a place. Okay, he's not the kind of person that does that. How is, you know, and another character says, you've got to really love the subject that you're studying.

How can you fall in love with it? This is what you have to do. Then ends up falling so much in love with it that when the exam is cancelled, they're devastated and do the exam anyway. It's like, it's all about motivating those things.

And I think once you've got that motivation, once you've got fuel in the tank, the plot itself could sort of go on for as long as you need it to. But I think quite often, we end up with these plots where someone tries to do something slightly arbitrary and fails, tries again and succeeds. And that's the end. And there are lots of jokes along the way.

And actual facts, we need someone with a clear quest based on their own characters, great dreams for a better life or great desire for how to correct the universe so that all is now just and well. They go about it in their own slightly flawed way. It gets worse. They try a different way, make it worse still.

And then they have to rediscover something, unlearn something, say sorry to somebody, do the one thing they didn't want to do once all is lost. And then they will adjust about able to dig themselves out of a tunnel and get back to the situation they were in at the start of the show. That would be my mental template if I was just spitballing plot lines. And I think, again, that's just character.

It's so important here because and it's a very strict discipline because again, this is something people do. They'll come up with a character and the character will have their quest and they'll do the quest in that way. And it won't work or something will go wrong and then not the thing will go wrong. And there may be an escalation of problems, but then all too often I do find that writers and I think I'm sure I do it myself as well sometimes.

It's I got to make it worse for my character. This thing's going to happen. And so an external thing comes in, but that's never going to work because you have to keep coming back to it's got to the character has to own 100% of why things are going wrong. That's probably one of the hardest parts I think with plot is getting to that point where how bad this is as bad as bad as bad can be.

And it's all my doing. And in order to get out of it, it's also going to have to be my doing as you say they're going to have to unlearn something or they're going to have to do something or to come back yet again to feel done for you. They're going to have to learn for just long enough to correct it. And then by the end of the episode, they've unlearned it, which is believable, which is what people are like.

So I think that that that act two to three transition, which I believe is the case when people are talking about writing movies, I don't know, they three acts five accidents and rematter, but that kind of going from the middle into the final act, that is the hardest bit. And in a way, I would say until you've cracked that you haven't got it. So that would be the one thing to make sure that you've got. And if you can do that and get that into your script, your script will be in the top 3% of scripts that are being read for that particular competition, because you very, very rarely come across that in pilot scripts from you writers that you just don't get this level of plotting of, which is basic in all the sitcoms you actually see on TV, but it's so hard to replicate it if you don't quite know what you're doing.

And we're telling you you're welcome, do join us on Patreon and say thank you. That would be nice. But I think, yeah, if you can do that, but I would say until you can just work out what is that all is lost moment? When is that moment when they're at the end of their rope, they just don't know what else to do.

And then that little glimmer of light, which isn't a Deus Ex Machina, it isn't a piece of good luck that they haven't earned, it isn't based on them, or something they've done, it isn't a reward for something they did earlier, to help somebody. And that favor has now been returned at just the right moment. And that is the really, really tricky bit. It's hard to replicate, it's hard to have a formula for it, but you sort of know it when you see it.

Yeah, and you might be saying, yeah, but people only read the first 10 pages, you know, what's the point of getting to all that to do all that? And you know, you won't see it in the first 10 pages. Well, the fact is that I think you do, and I think generally, if you have put in the amount of work that you know that that end of Act 2, Act 3 thing is going to be. And then you can sort of work back from that.

And we'll know when we read those first 10 pages that are right, there's a lot of things here, because you do, this is this whole thing about when we say in the first 10 pages, where you need to find out who your main character is, what do they want, what is the obstacle in their way, what is the world that you've created, and what is this week's plot, and that's a lot of stuff that we ask for in the first 10 pages. But if you don't, if you have all of that, that already suggests there's a possibility that you're on track to get to that point, another two thirds of the way through the script where all is lost. And I would say, you know, well, what's the point if they're going to make up the first 10 pages? Yeah, that's why I said, if you can get this right, you'll be in the top 3%.

I wasn't saying that you get through to the next round and that your script is now readable. I take it if you enter a competition, you want to win. I take it if you send a script to a producer, you want them to give you a call because your script is brilliant as opposed to passable or not bad. And so it's interesting that the ones that the scripts that were contenders for the winner of the hatchery competition, we did, did actually have this, but they were very, very few and far between.

So it may be that out of the, you know, hundreds that we read, dozens got through to the next round, but then it was like, when the bar gets higher, you want to clear this bar, and this bar is, do you have that moment where all is lost and you really don't know how the character is going to get out of this one? And also it does all of the other things that you've just said, which is setting up who the character is, what this show is really about. And so in a way, that's the last of my four things about the quest. This quest they're doing should be part of their uber life goal, not just based on their short term desires at once, but emblematic of how this person is going to write the universe or get what they really want.

Or, you know, so the first episode of Bluestone 4 2, Captain Nick Medhurst, who is the brave, bomb, this folks disposal guy, meets a woman who is the Padre and basically he's used to being successful with women, but she is going to propose him a much greater challenge because she has theological reasons for not wanting to surrender to him as quickly as the other girls do. And so he basically wants this, he spends this episode trying to get off with her. And you know, that is him. He is a, he is a liberty, he is a head and is, he uses his bravery to leverage to get girls and to get what he wants.

So although he is brave, sure, he's also, you know, selfish and greedy. And so, and in another episode, I think episode two, he's trying to get the nice food, you know, he wants, he wants the best, he's not trying to get it for his team particularly, he wants to get it for himself. So that's kind of, we found plots that were emblematic of what this character was about and what this show kind of was about as well because it was very much based around, around that central character. And it wasn't about the injustice and the horror of war, even though we saw Mike McShane get shot through the head about seven minutes in, it is about those little desires you have that keep you going.

When the enemy are trying to kill you, you know, that's, that's not what the show is, you know, it's not, it's not Hurt Locker. It's, it's the in betweeners with guns. And so we were trying to show them sort of scary pitch. Yeah, but that's what it is.

You know, most of these people with guns at the age of slightly older in betweeners and their thought processes are very, very similar. I'm thinking that having watched several parts of the Prince Harry Netflix thing, I think he would fit it pretty well into Bluestone 4-2. I'm sorry to say that's probably true. Without much trouble.

So that's just kind of bring this all, bring this all to an end. And so we've reached the, all is nearly at the end moment of this episode. Yeah. I don't know if there's this, there's this the absolute secret of plotting which we haven't told you yet.

And, and you're not going to find out. So, but no, hard, hard work and more hard work and more hard work is the key. But is there anything else that you, I'm on this very particular thing, you know, what is a plot and what isn't a plot and is it, is there a phrase or sentence that you think could sort of sum up mostly what you're, yeah. I'm not sure there is a phrasal sentence, but it's just a question of just lining everything up, lining up your character, your main characters, personalities and desires and ways of doing things with what the overall show is about.

And those are the kinds of stories that you want to be using as your plots rather than a bunch of characters in a situation and the fire alarm goes off. And we see how all the different characters react to that. And then when they turn it off and then what happens, I mean, that's, you know, I've read scripts like that and they're not compelling because there isn't a plot. So, and good characters, good situation, whatever, fine.

But it's not, it's not a plot. Your characters need to be doing something that matters to them in a way that's consistent with their character. And the reason they're doing that thing is it is emblematic of what your show actually is. And that all sounds like a horribly large amount of work, correct?

It is. And it doesn't just begin with the plotting. It comes right back to be, you know, what is your idea and how are you putting that idea together and what's it about and what's it really about, again, these are the questions that we have dealt with a lot in other episodes. But I think that when you get to plotting, you have to put in that equal amount of work.

And again, another thing that we have talked about before, and as James has mentioned before, you know, you just, when you're starting out coming up with plots, you just have to sit down and brainstorm and come up with loads and loads and loads and loads of plots. And gradually, you start to see which ones might match your characters and that thing. And we'll have twists and turns that you'll be able to kind of develop really. So I think we've kind of covered the introduction to plot.

I think we've got more to say there for these say James. There's a 90 minute webinar version of this. So if you go to my blog, sitcomgeek.blogspot.com, then you can find some details there and how you can join my mailing list and then you can watch it for free. So all you need to do is get on the mailing list and then you'll get that plus other web webinars I've done for free all there.

So do go and make use of that. Dave, do you want to remind people about your book? Yes, I've got to say that a complete comedy writer is out and there can be a new book as well. I'm sure the book about how to get your career moving when there's a recession on whatever the recession might be.

And also don't forget the comedy conference coming in April and we'll be talking about that again later on this year. Not too late because it happened in April. So thanks again James and we shall see you again in a couple of weeks. Cheerio.