Episode 26: Hellier's Connor Randle

As soon as I had stopped, there was a door open in the side of this vehicle, and this man stepped out and came directly to me, or came to the truck. He walked to the right-hand side of the truck, and he told me to roll down the window. He asked me to roll down the window on my right-hand side of my truck, and I had done what he asked. And this man stood there, and he first asked me what I was called, and I knew him it, and I told him I knew him.

And he asked me, he said, but why are you frightened? He said, don't you, frightened, we wish you no harm. He said, we mean you know harm, we wish you only have it. And I told him my name, and when I told him my name, he said he was called cold.

This is gonna be the time to slip on the door open. Hey, for the spirits of anybody that still remains, I have a device in my hand. If you would like to talk to me, please come forward. Tell me your story.

And maybe I should have killed four or five hundred people, then I would have felt better. And I felt like I really offered society something. You are listening to Serial Spirits, the podcast. Alright guys, welcome to this special episode of Serial Spirits, the podcast.

It is me, your host, Brendan Shea, and with me as always is the beautiful, the lovely. Annie Weaves, how's it going, Shea? Are you excited for tonight? I'm excited for tonight.

I told everybody that we only had two more things we were releasing this year, and that was the snippet that we just released, and then a Christmas episode. But I was able to secure a final interview for the year, and I'm kind of excited about it, because as you know, we have Doug Deep into the world of Mothman and all that crazy phenomenon. And tonight we're going to have Connor Randall, one of the producers, investigators, and the team of the series, Hellier, and they just released their second season, what, last week? Was it last week?

Black Friday. Black Friday. Hellier too, and it is absolutely freaking phenomenal. And I'm so excited to talk to Connor, because if you haven't watched episode or season one of Hellier, you got to do that first.

There's my disclaimer is that you have to do that to get the history behind Hellier, and then dig deep into the second season, because it travels down a serious wormhole of weirdness, and we're going to get into all of that with Connor tonight, because he plays a huge part in season two. And let me tell you this guy, you know, if you follow anything that he's done in his career, he's had a pretty interesting paranormal career, and he is a freaking genius in my book, and he's the reason, you know, I really wanted to talk to him and pick his brain about some things. So what follows is going to be our interview with Connor Randall from the Hellier series right here on Serial Spirits, the podcast cast cast cast. Anyway, here's our interview with Connor.

All right, guys, so on tonight's episode of Serial Spirits, we are so incredibly excited and honored. So welcome from the documentary that is taking the Paranormal World by Storm. You guys, please help us welcome Hellier's Connor Randall Connor. Thank you so much for being part of Serial Spirits tonight.

Thank you guys for having me. I'm excited to chat about all of this strangeness. Let's do it. Oh my gosh.

All of the high strangeness. There are so many things that we want to discuss with you, but our first disclaimer is that if anyone listening has not already watched Hellier season one, then what does it matter with you? Right. Number one, what's the matter with you?

Where are you in? But number two, go back and do that before you launch into season two, because there's just so much detail there that you've got to get the history underneath your belt before you dive into season two. So Connor, before we go into the series, give us a little rundown about how you got involved with the Paranormal and how Hellier's project kind of fell into your lap. You know, it's kind of a funny.

I like many people who I'm sure are your listeners are was, I've been interested in the Paranormal Esoterica, high strangeness and just strange stories since my early teenage years. I am located out in Colorado. I'm lucky to be about an hour away from the famous Stanley Hotel. So I loved ghost stories so much based off of some experiences when I was younger that I was like, well, shoot, I want to I want to be around this.

And so I got a job when I was 17 as the concierge slash a history tour guide at the Stanley Hotel up in Estes Park, the shining hotel. It's more well known as. And so I had that job for about five years, and then I eventually became sort of their resident Paranormal Dude along with Carl and my friend Michelle. And so we basically spent four years at that job.

In the meantime, I joined up with I was a big fan of course of the show, Ghost Hunters. And so I joined up with the Colorado Taps team. So any weekend that I wasn't at the Stanley, I was out with those guys and other places looking for ghosts. And then he got to a point where Carl and I, he was starting to get more interested in photography and video work.

And we kind of thought, well, shoot, we have fairly interesting jobs. Why don't we start to document some of that? And so we essentially created this series that was called Spirits of the Stanley, which was about the ghost stories of the Stanley Hotel and our experiences, which is on YouTube still, if anybody wants to check it out. And that sort of became sort of the preamble to Hellier.

That's where we kind of cut our teeth, learn how to do documentary work. And then the Stanley kind of nixed and cut off a lot of their paranormal stuff. You know, they were like, we're not really, the owner's not really interested in continuing to do ghost work necessarily. And so we were like, well, shoot, that's too bad.

But we had met so many friends at different conferences and things at that point that we were looking for something else to document. Carl's ear was caught by Greg Newkirk telling this very strange story about goblins and creatures in rural Kentucky. And so we hit up Greg and said, hey, man, can we come out and make a short about your case revolving around the Kentucky goblins? And then it just, we went into it thinking it was going to be an hour, hour and a half long.

And then it turned into an entire series that now spans 13, 14 hours of content. And people are really digging the case. So yeah, yeah, it's good. I can say I've watched a couple of the Spirits of the Stanley.

And from day one, I think it's just besides the content of it, it's a very well shot like series. Well, thank you. I mean, and that's one of the things that always catches my eye too, and I watch a lot of these documentaries is that how well shot they are. And Hellier is mean.

It's extremely well, well done. The production wise, everything. But I mean, yeah, you guys, you know, that's what I told Annie before, like we watched, we finished the second Hellier. We were like, I kept telling her, I was like, when you see people who actually have done the work, they do the research, and they've investigated so much, like, all right, now we're going to put this on camera, and we want everyone else to see, you know, I think it means more to people watching it, because especially investigators, they've seen, or they've investigated, and they know the steps that it takes to do all that work.

And then when you actually let somebody else be the eyes, you know, what I mean? Like that camera is now their eye being part of the investigation with you. Like it's it's a very well shot show. Well, thank you.

I appreciate that. You know, and 90% of that is Carl's eye. He's taught me some tricks, but his his camera work is just phenomenal. We're lucky to have him.

I do I do the audio recording, but he's really the mastermind behind that part of it. Yeah, big up to Carl Fife because he does have a beautiful eye. So let's go back to, like I said, season one, tell everyone if they don't know what this is about. What is Hellier?

Is it a place? Is it a person? Is it what is the premise behind the Hellier series? Yeah, so Hellier is a town in rural Kentucky about 45 minutes away from Pikeville, Kentucky, is the next largest near town nearest large town.

I should say so it's I mean, it's it's a very tiny community. I want to say maybe 700 residents. I mean, it's it's out in the middle of coal country in the middle of the hills of Appalachia. Essentially, Greg received starting in 2012 a series of emails from a man named David who said that he lived outside just outside of Hellier, Kentucky, and said that he was he and his family were being terrorized by these creatures who were breaking into their shed who were tapping on the windows, these little beings who were three and a half, four feet tall, had three toes and were just very mischievous.

They said they took his dog, they said they were vandalizing his property. They said and he said nobody would believe him. Greg had continuing contact with this guy for a number of months. And then when Greg finally made plans to go out and actually go in person and see this guy, he just completely disappeared.

And so it sort of became this this mystery where in a way that's sort of this paranormal catfish, you know, where it's like, well, who sent all of these pictures, who sent us the footprints, who sent all this information and where did he go? So it became a search for the real guy, David, and it became a search for for the creatures themselves. And it's interesting because, okay, I'm from Huntington, West Virginia. So I grew up, you know, 45 minutes from Point Pleasant and there's so much history in this area.

My family is actually from, I've traced them back to Johnson County, Kentucky, which is near the Picoal area. And you're talking about a very religious and superstitious people from that area, which I think plays a lot into the story behind Hellyer. I had the chance to chat. It's been a few months back now with Geraldine Sutton, Stith, who was one of the her family actually kind of told the story that happened back in the 1950s that they called the Kelly Green and the Hopkinsville Goblins.

And so you've heard these stories kind of replay out over the years and feel like as, you know, Hellyer gained more popularity, people started talking about it even more kind of like, you know, Mothman in the 60s, when all of that phenomena happened in Point Pleasant and, you know, we'll get into later in this interview talking about some other places that Mothman appeared that you guys also visited. People are talking a little more about it now. And it's so funny because we had the chance to talk with you guys very briefly at the Mothman Festival this year. And I remember my own grandfather, who was a coal miner and an avid hunter.

So he spent, you know, thousands of hours in the woods, especially at night talking about what he called, he called them Hanks, which basically meant ghosts, spirits, and, you know, in the woods and warned us about going out there by ourselves and very superstitious. And so it's so crazy to me to see all of this coming out in the public now, these stories that we grew up hearing as kids that nobody ever really believed, but now you're seeing them all surface and it's just, it's crazy to me. Yeah, no, and that's fantastic. So you, and you also probably would agree with this potential assessment, one of the most difficult things about trying to log sightings in this case.

And we have, you know, we're using all sorts of methods. We're looking on like local, like next door forums and topics forums and stuff like what, what are people talking about in this area? One of the most difficult things is that there's no agreed upon name, you know? So like you said, like you're, like you're, like you're, he called them paints, people call them critters, they call them eyes in the trees, they call them the hills have eyes, this little, little men, goblins, it's, it's all over the place.

It's not like Bigfoot where it's like clearly, this is the thing. What is going on in this area? It's, it's a continuing sort of frustration, but, but also a fascination. But that's one of the credible things too, about this area.

People are reluctant to talk about these things. And that's what they said about like in Point Pleasant Mothman. That's why John Keel was so he was believing is people because these are people who didn't believe in this kind of stuff, didn't want to hear about it, but they were the ones coming forward and saying, yeah, I saw something, I couldn't explain it. And that's why to me, a lot of this stuff was really credible because these people really didn't want to talk about that kind of stuff, but they seen something they couldn't explain or understand.

And it was like, wow, something really must be going on. Yeah, absolutely. It's, it adds to the credibility of the witness if they're a little bit reluctant at first, which makes our job a little bit difficult. I mean, we're sitting here with a couple of cameras, you know, talking to these people about some of the strangest things they've seen in their lives.

It can take a while for them to open up. So in the first season, you guys get together and basically you follow these emails out to the town of Hellier, Kentucky. Let's start in Hellier as you're driving into the town. What's your first impression when you come in there?

I think this is a very poignant moment in the first season when you're seeing the place that you're going to and realizing, oh man, what have we gotten ourselves into? Yeah, there is Hellier, you make this turn off of the highway, and then you drive for another 30 minutes and you go to the spot where there's clearly, they had thought about the highway sort of continuing over that area and it's just sort of sitting there vacant. What's funny is that you actually see in season two, they're starting construction on the highway again. So at any rate, you realize that it's a very isolated community.

There is, and I don't mean this in any offensive way at all. It's this way in a lot of towns. There's there's no reason to go there unless you live there or you know somebody who lives there. It's not, it's not a through way.

And so it's there. There's a lot of, a lot of no trespassing signs, a lot of, you know, stay off of my property, a lot of, there's only one actual place of commerce in the entire town. It's a gas station slash pizza store slash, you know, post office and it's all in one. And I think a lot of people sort of shake their head and they're like, okay, I know what kind of a place you're talking about.

So we roll up with the thought of trying to find David and going around talking to as many people as we can. And it sort of takes off from there. So let's talk about you get into Hellier, but there's also, okay, you've had the emails from David who is this person who says he's being, you know, his family's being tortured by these little green men. Let's talk about Terry Rist.

And where that name comes into play, because it's such an integral part of the story from season one in season two. Yeah, Terry is the continuing enigma that we find some answers to, but are still on a continuing quest. Terry Rist is, so the person who puts David in contact with Greg, that's the first time the name comes up. Greg receives emails from this guy named David and all of this information about what he's experiencing.

One of the questions that Greg asks David, he said, how did you get this email address? How do you know who I am? And David said, oh, through a mutual friend of ours, Terry Rist. And Greg, of course, doesn't know anybody by this name.

He doesn't know anybody by this online handle. The only reference that could be found of Terry Rist was in an interview in the index of a rather than obscure occult book called The Secret Cipher of the Eufenauts. Eufenauts being an old-fashioned term for aliens, the pilots of the UFOs. And so there's an interview with this guy named Terry Rist who says, I've been using this coded cipher to get into contact with aliens.

And I'm interested in caving, and I'm interested in all of this sort of strangeness. And I went out and I met Andrew Cole, the alien from 1968 in Point Pleasant. And Terry Rist in this interview is claiming all of this stuff. It's obviously the guy who, apparently David knew and put him in contact with.

So that's Terry's background. Of course, the case took another turn when, after David disappeared, Terry then started to email Greg. Did you ever think I was wondering, like your theory on to go back to David Christie, because like, you know, there was no record of him anywhere. And I thought maybe at first, like I know there's a couple colleges around Pikeville that maybe he was a doctor who came there for a short term to teach in the college.

Maybe that could have been him or, and I said this right away. I was like, I wonder if he was using the student and he was using his first name and his wife's first name just to, you know, I mean, I don't know what kind of theory did you guys have on him of what who this guy was. What's funny is David, it's not like it was a one-off email. I mean, this was this was months of contact.

I have stacks of papers of emails from David Christie. We read out one of them in the series, the big prevalent one, but there was other context. So he, he was very clear that he wants anonymity because Greg and his wife Dana, they run a paranormal website, you know, planet weird. They run a museum and travel around with haunted and cold objects.

And so they're, they're public figures in this field doing research. David said, you guys can come out and record, but I have to remain anonymous. So, so yeah, we think that it might have very easily been a fake name to begin with. What's funny is you do all of these searches for a Dr.

David Christie. There are a couple of the pop-up and one of the things that, of course, we didn't include in the series because nothing came of it was, you know, people send us an email, have you seen this Dr. David Christie in, you know, Washington? Have you seen this one in New Mexico?

Oh, yeah, we have we, I was there when Greg left some hilariously awkward voicemails with those doctor secretaries. I'd love to hear so those included in the outtakes. Yeah, it's great. So, but we went to the source.

We went to the county records office. We went to everything we could. Nobody ever had any residency in that area. So it's, it's a fake name.

Of course, the other thing is that David sent pictures. One of the things that we don't, didn't include in the series that we also did is we looked at the ex-if data from those pictures to see what's going on there. That's something that might come in later. I hope I'm not given a future spoiler away.

But basically we found out that the pictures were taken when he said they were taken. Of course, he took them with an old-fashioned point and shoot camera. So there's no geotag. There's no, it's not a smartphone where you can tell where the picture was taken.

But those pictures were taken within the time frame of the emails correctly, as he said. He's, he's, it's fascinating. He's a really articulate guy, very well read. He's an educated man.

You can tell off of that based off the way he writes, somebody sent those emails and it's, it's a mystery. Well, it makes sense to think that it could have been someone who was not born and raised in the Pikeville area. Like you said, if they're identifying as a doctor, like Riddin said, you know, whether they were coming from the university or there are several, I work at one of the local hospitals and I know that there are several hospitals down there in that area where a lot of residents pass through as well. And so it's, that was my inclination is when this guy said he had been there and you know, all of a sudden he disappeared, either number one, he was too frightened to talk about what had happened to him or his family, or maybe he had been in residency there, or he was a professor for just a short time and passed through and was gone because I know this area vaguely and I don't know how many people would have been following Planet Weird at that point.

You know what I mean? Like it's, it's just would seem kind of, I don't want to say out of the ordinary, but I think someone who had a little more maybe exposure to the paranormal world would have known who Greg was basically. Hmm. No, that's true.

It's odd. I mean, let's be honest, a 60 something year old doctor is not Greg's primary demographic, you know, it's like, but apparently Terry was keeping an eye on him. So, yeah. So you guys are in Hellyer.

You go there and you just do the boots on the ground, you know, kind of discovery of, okay, you get there and there is no David. So you guys are staying at a cabin out there and I think one of the most interesting parts in season one was a really interesting session that you guys did on the porch, the Estes Method, that they actually, you were kind of the guinea pig for this experiment that yielded some really interesting information that came into play at that time, but even more so in season two, once you guys started connecting the dots. Yeah. You know, part of this, it's kind of a two-pronged search and that's, I think, part of the fun of it.

It's a search for seemingly very real individuals and it's also a search for this phenomena, this high strangeness. I've gotten to the point where I don't necessarily attach labels to things and so I just sort of, we all just sort of refer to it as the phenomena, you know, whatever is out there. And so, yeah, one of the things we did, basically in the daytime, we'd be doing our boots on the ground, like let's go to all the records, let's knock on doors, let's see if we can find this guy. And then in nighttime, we would sit and try to do different psychical experiments, different alien contact or spirit contact experiments to see if the beings would talk to us.

So, yeah, when we sat down and decided to do an Estes Method session on the porch. What did you, what do you remember? Because it's so, I've done sessions like that when we've gone to different locations to investigate. And I find it to be very disorienting because your senses are all blocked.

You're not hearing any outside. You're just hearing what's coming through on that box. What was going through your mind as you were doing that session? What do you remember from that?

You know, I remember, so I am the Estes Method is something that Carl and Michelle and I developed in Estes Park, Colorado, naturally. So, we basically were blocking off, we're creating sensory deprivation combined with a spirit box. Because it gets so tiring and being like, well, people can kind of hear what they want to hear out of this device, you know. And so, we thought, well, let's just totally have one person listen to it with big soundproof headphones and with a blindfold, so they just get lost in the noise.

So, it's not like it's something that I hadn't done before. I mean, I had done it for dozens and dozens of hours. And I sat back a little bit weirded out because we're sitting in this very foreign territory for us, asking these beings to get in contact. But I remember it being a long session.

I was under for probably an hour and a half. And then they were, they just kept saying a lot of words that related to the mountains, that related to different animals and creatures. And then at one point, I received, it was the weirdest thing because I just get lost in this sound. Like we said, you know, like we're all kind of like sound snobs, you know, I just get so used to using my ears.

And I'm just sitting there. And then suddenly, as my eyes are closed, this clearest thing just pops up right in front of my vision as if it's just right in front of me. I see a bright pink background sitting on a table and on the middle of the table is a tin can. And so, that's, it felt so weirdly poignant and random that while I was just in this almost trans-like state, that would just show up in my vision that I'm sure glad I said something.

Oh, yeah. I mean, when you said that, I was like, we were watching it. I'm like, what tin can, but then it all obviously becomes clear. And you make that connection, which I'm sure we'll get into.

You make that connection to something else too, which was like, you know, I've read a lot of John Keel's stuff and I didn't even like think about that. I was like, holy crap. But. Well, and you're talking about if you take one word away from the Hellier series, it should be the very first word that Carl speaks in this series, Synchronicity.

Sure. Yeah. Synchronicity, which is, I mean, it's such a beautiful thing as all of this plays out over the course of the two seasons. You see all of these random things that you think are so random at the time, start to fall into place and you realize that you guys were all there together in those moments, saying those things, seeing those things for a bigger purpose than you could have ever imagined.

Yeah. Tying it all together. I mean, and that's one of the things you brought it up the Estes Method, you know, when you watch a lot of these shows and you know, I've been on tons of investigations where everyone's listening to the spirit box out loud and they all interpret something that's being said differently, you know, like I thought it said book well, I thought it said couch, you know what I mean? And there's no real clear picture.

So it's kind of like a toss-up to being like, where's the spirit leading us? And I think it's incredible to do that to where one person is just completely unaware of what anybody's asking. And I think the clarity of stuff that was coming through when you guys were sitting on that porch was incredible and you had no idea. You had no clue.

You were just repeating what you heard and it made sense. Well, thanks. You're just to make a phone for whatever you're hearing. You're just spouting it out.

And you know, it's funny. I've obviously spent a lot of time thinking about what makes this work because we weren't expecting it to just sort of go out into the paranormal world and have all these people doing this. You know, we thought, and you know what, honestly, I think one of the theories that I'm starting to possibly coincide with, I think that that basically gives your subconscious brain an excuse to hear sound. If you were just listening to white noise, you would think that you're just sort of like making it up.

But maybe it gives just the right amount of buffer, you know, for whatever it is to appear within that sound. Absolutely. Yeah, that makes sense. So you've done your experiments there.

And what did you think was the most important part of your first visit there in Hellyer? If you took away anything from that, what was the moment that made you stop and say, Oh my gosh, there is really something to the phenomena that people are experiencing here? Honestly, I think it's realizing that it wasn't an isolated incident that we're talking to these people and realizing, Oh, David's not the only person who's had something strange happen. There's there's this whole town.

There's a lot of people who've seen weird things. So a that added some validity to it. And then be kind of coincided with some of the reading that we that we started to do where I think there's a possibility that Hellyer from 2012 to 2013 was, as John Keel would say, a window area that something appeared, some weird stuff happened. And then it kind of closed off.

That was a pretty big realization. And it sort of changed the whole game where it's like, Well, how do we find one while it's open? How can I go to one of these places? And that's becomes a continuing theme in season two.

So what do you think happened there in that time span? Why why Hellyer? What would have been so special about that little town that John Keel's phenomena that he wrote about in the Mothman prophecies, like you said, these windows of time that kind of open, we're talking about interdimensional time travel. And like I said, you guys, if you haven't watched the first season, do that before you watch the second because the second gets deep really quickly.

It's just like this, you just dive head first and you're like, Oh my God, this is this is intense. But why do you think that time period, why Hellyer, what made that area special enough that these people were experiencing this phenomena? It's an excellent question. You know, I, I think that the people there, so so Hellyer, and this is one of the one of the words that comes up a lot in season two is liminality.

I think that Hellyer is an in between area. It's an in between town. It's sort of is transitioning. I mean, even economically, the coal mines are shutting down, you know, the big power plants and stuff, people are moving out of that area or in a sort of area mentally where they're sort of in a transitional space.

I think that that's an important overall mental subconscious factor between a community that can enable something to open up. Of course, what exactly made it just strange enough? I don't know, but that's that's my educated guess. So some being someone who was born and raised here, I can tell you I 100% agree with that theory because even in the time, you know, I'm 36, I've lived almost my entire life in this area.

And what I have seen over the course of my years are the coal mines closing down. You see a lot of chemical plants, you see a lot of natural resources in this area, but a lot of the business is moving out. People are moving out and generations are dying out that have been here for so many years. And so it is it has gone through this transitional period of, you know, a lot of people don't know whether to say or whether to go.

And but on top of that, they mentioned something that I found very curious. I can't remember who said it in season two, but talking about the number of and I say this in all due respect, mentally ill people in the area that we live in drugs have become a huge problem. And so it's almost like a zombie land in some of these places like with the people on drugs. I mean, it's bad.

It can be and but even in the town that we live in in Huntington, 50,000 residents here roughly, this town exists because of Marshall University because of the hospitals. But I can drive from my house five to five minutes in either direction and hit a major psychiatric hospital. And talking about psychiatric hospitals that are absolutely filled to the brim with people to the point that we are transporting patients out to other areas. And so you do have this area that is almost in this physical, emotional, financial unrest to say the least.

Yeah, it's funny. I don't think that, you know, I think Greg's gives a really good analogy in season two where it's like the people who have high strangeness enter their lives and surround them, the people who are inundated with poltergeist activity, the people are who are have live in haunted houses who have all of these strange sightings. So many of them have difficulties in other areas of their life. And it's an easy thing for the skeptics to pass off where it's like, well, of course, a lot of people who claim this are have mental illness.

Well, maybe that's because their conscious mind exists in just the right place for contact to occur. Maybe everybody else is just blocking it off. And so part of our game is changing our mind, as much as we can, even artificially or with technology as you see in season two, how do we shake up what our brains are thinking about? That's sort of a continuing idea.

Yeah. It's this evolution that you see from season one to season two after you've been there and you realize the place that you're dealing with, the people that you're dealing with, you see this very poignant evolution of what you guys are doing. And so when you finished up season one, where did you guys think you would go from there? Did you know there would be a season two?

Did you know that this would all continue or was it more like, we got to wait and see if we get more emails? Yeah, it's funny. We thought that we were going to continue the story simply because after season one, so we had already, I guess to clarify the timeline, the first three episodes of season two were already filmed by the time season one was released. I mean, this was all within the last year and a half that we did all of this, you know.

So yeah, we had a general idea that we still had more we wanted to tell and we got so fascinated with all of the reading that we were doing that we were like, well, this seems like a story that the paranormal world should hear. We had no idea that Greg was going to receive emails from another witness that would become fairly crucial to the ongoing investigation in season two. And is that witness you're talking about the young woman, the young lady? Okay.

I wanted to bring that up just in the simple fact. There's something that she said to you guys. And it reverts back to a story that I had heard years ago and I had listened to this podcast where I was a comedy podcast. They did a lot of paranormal stories.

Maybe you've heard of it, the unbelievable podcast. But they had did this story about this guy and his name was Richard Shaver. I don't know if you've heard the story, but he talks about these eraser of aliens called the daros and peros. And basically, the story starts out with him working in this factory and he starts to hear what he thinks is his fellow co-workers, like he's hearing their thoughts.

You know, he's hearing these voices and he's like, what is going on? And then he starts to realize that it's not coming from his co-workers. It's coming from somewhere else. And it ends up, he finds this secret passage to the basement.

He gets in the elevator and hits the basement button twice and he ends up in this cave system, this cave city with all these creatures called the daros and they're kidnapping humans and putting them through what he called meat torture. Now, one of the things that I think was said in that girl's email is like, there's some kind of where she maybe is when she's on the video chat with Greg. She says something about how you access this tunnel to an elevator that takes you down. Yeah.

I mean, and that to me was like, well, this is something kind of strange here. There's two different stories tied together. This guy from like the 1930s is telling this story. And then she's telling it now is like, I thought it was kind of strange because it brought up aliens underground in cave systems and murder and kidnapping.

Of course, putting our skeptics on, it's like, well, is that the story that she had heard or read? But honestly, that's what I thought too. But yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, after talking with her, it doesn't appear to be the case.

This is clearly not her bag. You know, so she, yeah, basically presented this entirely new, but she hit on some key points. She knew things that she should not have known, such as, you know, things like the stuff that related to the emails that hadn't been released. I mean, the project had not been released.

And so it was just bizarre that she was hitting on this stuff. It was worth looking into, but also a lot scarier because her claims were scarier. So yeah. Well, that's a that's one of the thing like we are, we do a lot of true crime on our podcast, but we wanted it to make it kind of like we do a little bit of everything because our background were both paranormal investigators.

But if you look at some of the statistics of like these areas, you see a lot of these places that have these cave systems. There's a lot of people who've been missing or murdered over the years. And a lot of them are unsolved. So could it all tie together?

And that's what as soon as I heard that, I'm like, holy crap, this could be that whole wormhole of that effect. Like this could be why some of these people are missing because maybe this is true. Did you got it? You got to land in Tyler Strand Tyler Strand's messenger.

He'll chat with you all day about this stuff. So man, like, it's, it's, it's, it's crazy. And you can see the kind of the fear in like, you know, and that's why I love watching Tyler Strand on this because I've been that way with Annie. We've done cases here where it's like, let's go talk to people and she's like, no, this is a bad area, but I'm the first one to jump out of the car and run in there without, you know, the fear and I see Tyler, I think you can see almost that fear on Greg's face when he hears the story and he's like, Oh, what if this turns into like some murder thing like, what are we supposed to do?

But I would have been the first one down there like, let's go, let's go. There's, there's a balance for sure. There is, but that's, that's part of why he is on the team. He gets us out of the car, you know.

So you guys receive these emails from this young woman named Amy who has these claims, just some unbelievable things like you said before, we're talking murder, torture, little green men underground. I mean, it just, it goes deep really quickly. And so how does your mentality turn from there? How does that kind of turn everything on its head for you guys?

Well, I think I come from a, the same background as you guys, but I think I, I and the rest of the team has a pretty hard wall where it's like, Nope, I don't do, I don't do true crime. That's, that's not my thing, you know. And so I'm like, well, well, shoot, what this, this isn't fun. It's not fun for me anymore to sit back and be like, Oh, should we look into a missing person's report?

Should we do this? You know, it's like, that's, I don't, that's not my thing. I'm nervous about being here. Of course, I was suspicious of Amy, but we all have enough curiosity naturally to go chase this, this down and see what we can see ourselves.

But when it actually got scary, it was when we talked to other people in town who were corroborating some of the stories where it was like, Oh yeah, there's, there's people who meet up in the caves and do like crazy stuff and we don't know what's going on. I don't think we know anything that law enforcement doesn't know, you know, so it's not like I have this like guilt on my consciousness. We're just talking about what the town's people talk about and kind of putting it out there. But that's man, it's a, it's a whole other, other ball game at that point.

I mean, it takes an entirely different twist because you're watching it expecting just, you know, aliens and little green men and all of a sudden you're talking about some of these insane and like you, I think we had all had to set back and say, okay, is this person really legit or could, you know, because it turns out, you know, she had been in some trouble. And so you have to take everything with a grain of salt except for the fact that there were other people talking about it too. Right. Right.

She also said a couple of key words. She said, this is a direct quote from her email. She said slough is little troll looking things but powerful. How would she have possibly known that word is our question because that relates to what Terry had emailed Greg.

There's a little, little tiny bit of handwritten text in the corner of the image that Terry sent to Greg that said slough S-L-U-F and I, that was a weird one. That was, that was odd. And she also didn't she use even knots too. She said, you have, who says you for knots?

Right. So we, exactly. And so we're breaking down. Nobody I've ever heard has used that but you guys.

And I mean, and from the area, you know what I mean, why in that area would that, that would be a, that would be a turn. So I'm looking back at some of the old stuff that has been posted about this case. And it should also be stressed that like when she sent this to Greg, there was no public indication that there was going to be a documentary about the goblins case. Like it was just an article that Greg had made five years ago, you know.

And so it was very odd that she started to talk about this stuff. And so we thought, so Greg thought, well, somebody's, somebody's putting us on. We have to figure this out. And I'm looking back at old articles that he posted and I'm like, well, maybe she saw this particular JPEG that's way back in the image that says, maybe there's a text here that she saw, maybe and then it's like, oh, wait, she's a real person.

We found her. It's not like David. She's there. Yeah.

Did you ever think that she and David could have been related in some way that they were sharing their stories and that's how she knew to contact Greg as well? We thought that maybe we thought that maybe Greg, yeah, that there was, I don't think that her and David knew each other. I think that it's possible that there's some sort of bizarre sub-sect of the occult community that has Greg's on speed dial for the weirdest of the weird. Congratulations, Greg.

I know they're just like putting him into this this contact. But honestly, you know what I think about it too? What would it have been like if this was never pursued? Well, shoot, I've gotten a peak into this man's email inbox.

I'm sure you guys get emails like this too. I'm even starting to get a little bit of reports and I love it. You just eat it up. But how many, not to discredit or say that they're not as cool, but how many thousands of reports have been sent into weekend weird and planned weird about UFOs, about ghosts?

Well, whoever talks about goblins, that's something that peaked Greg's interest. And so it was almost like it was just the right story to continue the pursuit. Yeah, and it makes them pictures to back it up that seem pretty legit. You get people who look at footprints for a living.

People like Bigfoot researchers or whatever and they see these dermal ridges in the picture and they're like, there's no way to fake that kind of stuff. I mean, that's legit footprints. I sat back. I got a chance at the last Michigan paracon that I got to go to for the first time this year.

I was all stoked on that. The guys from Finding Bigfoot were there. So I walked up to it with my little photos and I was like, can you help me explain this? You know, it was the goblins photos.

They had not seen them before and they were wigged out. It's got dermal ridges. It's if David's a hoax, it is the most elaborate hoax that I've ever seen. I don't think it's a hoax because it's so you know how okay, we watched season one of Hell Year and we were telling everybody that who was into the paranormal field and into podcasts, you know, check it out because it's so interesting and especially because you know, you guys were in our backyard basically.

And so I work at a hospital. One of the security guards that works there knows that we do a paranormal podcast and he was asking me about new things to watch and I told him about Hell Year and it just so happens. And this is how you know, these weird synchronicities come about. He used to be a park ranger at a place called Carter Caves State Park.

That's in Kentucky, close to where you guys were and he lived there for some amount of time. And when I start to tell him about the footprints, the three-toed footprints, his eyes get really big and he says, I've seen those before. And I said, what do you mean you've seen those before? And he said that when he was living there, he went to work early one morning.

It snowed the night before and he saw these strange footprints and he described them first as bird-like. But he said they were much larger and what he noticed was strange between them was the long stride. And so he knew that they couldn't have been made by any type of animal. And he says to me, you know, I've lived here for years, I've worked in the caves for years, I've never seen anything like this before.

And he sent me the picture and it is much like what he's what they sent to you guys. Oh shoot. It's incredible. And I'm like, holy cow, you know, it's just one more incident of all of this stuff kind of coming together.

They're not as pronounced as the ones you guys got because the ones that you guys had were in mud, these were in snow. But I mean, they're almost, I mean, a dead ringer. They're pretty similar. Three-toed, weird like that.

And he was like super stoked the way he's talking about it. He's like, oh my God, really? So yeah, that's weird. Well, send them in.

Well, yeah, we'll get them in there. If that's weird, that's what we want. Absolutely. And he then told me that he, before he left the area, he had talked to an elderly woman who lived there, who used to tell him about some type of creature that they saw on this road.

It was very remote that she described in almost Bigfoot type description. So there were other people who were there who had seen the strangeness and he just so happened to get a picture of it that day. Well, I mean, we were, yeah, like you said, we were lucky that our the footprints that were sent to Greg were in Coleslery kind of mud. I have not seen a snow footprint though.

So yeah, it's, you know what, there are creature reports that and 2012 was not that long ago, you know, this is something that could still be going on. We got to, more people need to get in the caves, see what's going on as time. Right. No, it's true.

So, so let's talk about we're transitioning into season two. And you guys, like I said, you get in super deep straight from the beginning. And one of the things that becomes a huge part of season two are the ciphers that you guys begin working on. So you end up in a place that's in my backyard, Ashland, Kentucky, literally 15 minutes from where we're sitting right now.

What took you to Ashland? How did you link Ashland to Andrew Cold? Yeah. So, just out of curiosity, how long have you lived in Ashland or near the Ashland area?

My entire life. Oh, yeah. So you, so you could have been, if he was there, you could have been a little girl while he was there. You know, here's what's funny.

We think that basically what Terry Rist says, I feel like I'm staring at my conspiracy boards right now, trying to narrate this for your audience, what Terry Rist says is the ink and black are isolated still. Terry Rist essentially sent Greg a coded email that has taken several, you know, five years now to break the code. And that sort of becomes without giving away in a huge spoiler is a big part of season two. Well, one of the very first parts of the emails that we deciphered was Terry saying the ink and black are isolated still.

Ink and black is a direct reference, sort of a nickname of sorts for injured cold. We learn that because Terry Rist in the interview, in the back of the occult book by Alan Greenfield, Secret Cipher, he says that he essentially uses this cipher that Alan Greenfield helps promote, where he takes different values of different aliens names, sees what number that value equals out to, and then basically looks at all of these other phrases that correspond because his theory is that when an alien or an ultra-terrestrial, whatever you want to call them, gives a witness their name, what they're actually giving is sort of an address, sort of a code to find them. And so that's the basic thesis of Alan Greenfield and Terry Rist. So the game then is looking at these aliens names, which are usually odd, they're their odd names, and plug them into a cipher.

And what they use is the occult text, the book of the law by Alistair Crowley. They see what phrases from that jumbled mess of a book, all of those phrases equal out to the same number. And then you have basically the aliens location right there in the form of different clues. What he says is that he went to meet injured cold in a town based off of clues from the book of the law.

He doesn't really give much more than that, except for the clues that he used. So we all sort of got into the cipher, but Carl was the first one to take it to another level, where he thought, I think we could do the same thing. I think we could try to find this location. And based off of all of the clues that he gives, it led us straight to the town of Ashland, Kentucky, which is where we believe injured cold and Terry Rist had a meeting sometime in the late 1970s.

And that's crazy. And my mind was instantly blown. So we're watching this episode. And the crazy, crazy thing is we had just been talking about going to Ashland for a couple of days before that.

There's the community park that's there. And every year they do the Christmas lights there, but they also have the Native American burial grounds. And for several days before we watched season two of Hell Year, we were like, we need to go to Ashland, go to the park, take Shay's daughter. And then we were sitting there that night.

We were actually going to go that day, and it rained here. And instead, we sat here and started Hell Year season two. Right. So you went to Ashland anyway?

Yeah, we went to Ashland anyway. And so I can't remember. It may have been you who said in the series that we, they hoped if we were watching, whoever was watching would stop and actually Google things and replay and rewind. And that's exactly what we did.

I looked at Shay and I was like, you got to stop right there, because you're talking about Route 52, which runs the span of Ohio, Kentucky, West Virginia, and areas all along the way. And I'm mentally plotting out this area that you guys were in and connecting the dots. And was floored. Like we stopped after episode two.

I was like, I need to process this and think about the Mothman sightings that they had there. Why would injured cold have been in Ashland, Kentucky, looking at the time frame because a lot of the Mothman sightings were linked to tragedies that happened in these areas. And so I spent the rest of the evening, you know, just googling things, trying to make sense of all of it in my own brain. That's exactly what we wanted to happen.

It's like, we're not, we're not sitting here. Hell year so weird because, and people, some people, some people get completely turned off of it because for this reason, because there's no closure. We're not claiming to give people closure on this case. We're just saying, here's all of this strangeness.

And we're not going to be able to wrap it up in a bow because that's not the nature of paranormal phenomena. But we're, that's what makes it legit. That's what makes this whole series legit. Well, thank you.

We're trying to tell the whole story. And so it's like, how do we track backtrack this, this story? And in the process of learning everything that we could about Terry Rist, it led us straight to Ashland, Kentucky, which oddly enough is also directly on a straight linear line. You know, I mean, it's hard to draw a straight line on a globe, but still it's, it's right in line with Point Pleasant with all those other spots.

So you guys are right right there on the line. So Carl brings out a map at some point and starts literally connecting the dots of all of these locations, even out west, that some of this activity had occurred because at one point, Tyler goes to Minnesota looking for something. And so what was your kind of summation of all of these lay lines in this area for lack of a better word, I guess? You know, we don't really know what to do with that except for to use it as a potential part of the toolbox.

Greg would if I were Greg, of course, he would want me to bring up the sort of the idea that, and I don't, I can't correctly cite this author, author, it might be Robert Kirk, it might be somebody like Josh Cushing or something, I'm not sure, but basically the theory is that the Fay, these beings, maybe they can't travel in straight lines, or they have to travel in straight lines. And so the idea was like, oh shoot, well, let's see what, where these straight lines are. And then it was found that some of the sightings are absolutely straight lines. If you draw them on a map with a ruler, some of the towns and things like that.

So, you know, it's weird, but it just becomes another thing just like the cipher where we're like, well, shoot, yeah, it could seem like it's you're taking a stab in the dark. And you know, sometimes you are taking a stab in the dark, but it's, it's another thing on the toolbox along with nine or 10 other things. How far out west did you trace those lines on the map? I mean, I'm just curious if it like doesn't go through places like Skinwalker Ranch, does that line continue all the way through?

The only hard hit that Carl had way out west was right over the peak of Mount Shasta. Mount Shasta up in, I think it's in Washington, maybe northern Bay Way, northern California, which has its own set of strange reports. But I don't believe that Skinwalker has been connected as of yet. My theory, and I'm not in any way, any type of theorist, conspiracy theorist, is that when I started to, and this was something that episode two and season two put together for me, was that if you draw, if you look at those lines that call Arl Drew, the one factor that I'm aware of in this area that connects all of those are natural resources.

Because you are, you're right there on the river, but even more than that, you have all of these power plants, all of these chemical plants that are in this area along the river. Plus there are underground, and I, this, I don't even know that I should say this kind of thing, because I don't know how protected this is. My brother works for the Department of Environmental Protection for the State of West Virginia. And he has, when you guys were talking about Route 52, that's what spurred this memory of this conversation that I had with him.

Along the Ohio River, there are areas of underground tunnels where they store natural gas, and they are literally cave systems underground that run for miles and miles that are full of natural gas. And so, I didn't know that. I mean, the caves are all over the place, but I didn't know that specifically. Yeah.

So if you're following some of these areas, he started drawing those lines on that map, and I'm like, these could be exactly where these deposits of natural resources are. Could it have something to do with that? I mean, if you're talking about alien beings that are here for a reason, is that why they're here? It's possible.

I mean, it's so weird, and that's what it's another difficult thing to wrap your mind around. It's like, well, there's alien beings. Of course, the first question based off of our natural defensive tendencies is do they have good intentions or not? And so, everything that I've read about injured cold shows that he's a good guy.

But apparently, according to Terry Rist, he is in actuality in alien who's in hiding. And so, it gets into this question of like, well, shoot, if this guy's in hiding, should we be broadcasting all this? I don't know, but it's fascinating enough, and we want to see if it's true. That's an interesting connection there.

Did not know that. And I've thought about that for years, too. You see, there's been reports of UFO sightings over top of power plants and all that kind of stuff. And maybe energy and fossil fuels or whatever is some kind of thing, even if it's like dimensional.

It could be. We're tapping into something we're not supposed to. I mean, that even gets into like the sort of theory about Roswell being connected to, you know, the dropping the inola gay and the dropping of the atomic bomb and all that, you know, because of Roswell in the airfield. So, if somebody's watching, maybe that's the places that they're paying attention to.

And the TNT bunkers and point pleasant that are tied to, you know, that all goes back to World War II, where they sort the immunicians there. And if you go there to the TNT bunkers, you see those old chemical ponds that are still out there. And it just, you know, it's another, I guess another layer of, I don't want to say government conspiracy, but you know, that's why that area was created was to store all of that, because we actually, the person who owned that property before it became the TNT bunkers, we are friends with his grandson. And yeah, he just passed about a year ago, and he lived well into his 90s, and they owned the property for years.

And he is the one who sold it off to them. And when they created the bunkers, just for that reason. And so you go out there now and you realize there's nothing else out there. That was its sole purpose was to be kind of a one and done, create it and leave.

Yeah, I mean, yeah, you go ahead. No, I was just gonna say they're just sitting there now. They're just abandoned. When you guys went there in this, the second season, was that your first time going there?

Yeah, yeah, it's my first time in Point Pleasant. It was awesome. It's pretty crazy. But we're watching this.

And this is something else that's weird. And I said this to Andy too, every place place that you guys have visited, it's like weird because I've been to every single one of them. And it's like, you know, and especially when you go to Somerset, I was like, I had no idea that all this phenomenon was going on there, either when I had been there. But when you walked into the bunkers that you guys did that session in with the Spirit Box, we had just been there from Authman Festival and we go every year with a group of our friends.

And after the, you know, the festivals over at night, we go to the TNT bunkers and you guys walked into the same exact one that we did our Spirit Box session and we had no idea. And the only reason I knew is because it said something about Russ on the wall, our friend's name is Russ and then it said Connor inside the bunker. So I was like, holy crap, we've been in that one and we've done the Spirit Box. That's awesome.

I think it's like the third one in way back there. Yeah. And there's so many of them. But I mean, it's just crazy that you wound up in that one.

And he had a really weird experience the first time we went there with something that could essentially have been injured cold or somebody because they say he's called the grinning man too. And so that place, you know, it's weird. It's got a weird vibe to it. Whatever remnant is still there, it could be like we say, you know, maybe it's just a side effect.

Maybe that weirdness is still lingering. So it seemed like a natural place to go. So you guys go in there and you do another session. But this time, Dana is wearing the God helmet, which I think is freaking phenomenal.

So tell us about that experience in the TNT bunkers. So what we decided to do is, you know, even though it's not like Terry wrist in his email was saying, you have to go to Point Pleasant. There wasn't any direct answer. Basically, our thought was, well, if all of this stuff is about injured cold and it's about potentially tying into the Mothman prophecies or whatever could have been happening there, if Hellier was a window of high strangeness, it seems the Point Pleasant probably was too.

So let's see what happens when we go to another window area. And basically we sat down and what we decided to do was sort of take the Estes method that we did in season one and we've done in so many places since then and to amplify it. So what we did is we had Dana, Greg and Dana got a hold of from, it's not like they bought this on eBay, but they got this from like a research lab in Ontario that is something called the Corin helmet or the God helmet or the person's or helmet, something that was developed by a couple of researchers, person, and Corin, I believe they basically have this band that you can wear around your brain that is putting little electromagnetic fields in certain areas around the brain, thus potentially inducing a paranormal sort of a higher level of consciousness, sort of entering into another state of mind. And so, and I should also say as a disclaimer, don't strap magnets to your brain.

That's not what we're doing. And a lot of people, I mean, honestly, and I don't want to harp on anybody directly or anything, even there's even some like little shows and series that are, they say doing a helmet session, but and they're just putting like magnets into you know, like superhero masks and stuff like that. Like that's not the way it works. It's something that's an actual research device that you have to get from these particular people.

Basically, what our thought was is let's have Dana strap into this and send a signal out to whatever is there, mentally think about it, try to get in contact with this phenomenon, the aliens, the beings, the critters, whatever you want to call them, and then we'll just kind of put that big beam out there and see what happens. So much like your first session in Hellyer, what was your thought process as this was going on? Was it more intense because Dana was there doing that in conjunction, or maybe more intense because of the location that you were in? What was your feeling?

What were your feelings and your thoughts as that was happening? It was intense. It was louder and it was a little bit more unsettling. Mothman's a scary thing, you know, and we're sitting in these bunkers, right?

And you guys have been there. It's a freaky place, but we're going to sit down and we're going to ask for aliens to get in contact with us. I was never nervous. I was more interested to see what happens.

One of the important things that I think we want to stress in order to keep the validity of your results and check is that you want to make sure that the person who is acting as the receiver knows as little as possible. So I didn't even necessarily know. Of course, I couldn't hear the questions they were asking. I couldn't hear what Dana was talking about.

But when I do a session, I try to go in as blind as possible so that everything is so I don't have something on my mind. And I don't want my own mind to be playing tricks on me. And so we always recommend, I would recommend if you're ever going to try a session, go into a location and whoever you're going to have do the method, don't tell them anything and see if that corroborates results even further. So I didn't know exactly what their tactics were, but I was interested to see that when Dana's session ended, my session ended as well.

And so when you guys left there, were there any, I guess, residual effects for her using the God helmet or the location that you've been in? Did anything freaky happen after that? Did it take some time to recover from that mentally, physically, emotionally? Did it take a toll on you guys after you left the bunkers?

Yeah, Dana especially, she says that it takes her sometimes as much as a week, especially the first three days after she does a session like that. It's not like this is something that she's doing every night. This is something that she's only done several times, maybe 10 or 12 times, I think now. But yeah, she was weirded out by the experience, but she was so excited with the results because she's thought that there were, and she might be right, that there's some potential breakthroughs or ideas in how extraterrestrial, extraterrestrial communication can occur.

I don't want to give too much away for people who haven't watched at this point, but something was mentioned in that session, it was a gateway. And it was mentioned several times. I mean, did you guys, I'm sure you realized it, but did that play out in any potential way? Because it was mentioned in several different sessions that you guys had done throughout the episodes, throughout going to different locations.

It was mentioned in Carl's thing as well, that he did. Yeah, you're right. It's a continuing analogy. Yeah, I don't have the answer, but yeah, it's there.

The gateway in the flap, the flap interests, I think that just that terminology, because again, you start to think of physical locations that can tie into these, I don't want to call them psychic experiences that you have, but as you're doing these experiments, these, again, these synchronicities all begin to line up, and that's kind of how you guys begin making the connections, especially with the numerology of all of this, which takes a huge turn at the end of season two. Yeah, you blew my mind with that shit. I was like, I was like, my hand on my head, like, are you serious right now? Thank you.

I had the same reaction over and over again every time I stared at that, for sure. I wanted to say something early, because you said, you know, some people don't understand it or don't get it, because he didn't gift wrap some conclusion at the end of it. And I've said this before, like talking about the Mothman Phenomena. If you watch the movie, the Richard Gere movie, The Mothman Prophecies, one of the guys in that movie, it's the doctor that he goes to Chicago to talk to, he says something in there that I think is absolutely like a great line to say.

And he, Richard Gere asked me, because what do they want? And he says, would you explain yourself to a cockroach? And I find that intriguing, because it's like they, you know, whatever these, these are, you know, ultra-terrestrials, aliens, some kind of elemental, they might be on a different thought process, obviously, than we are, and maybe they're higher, they're a higher form of thinking. I mean, why would you look at a bug and explain yourself to that bug?

I mean, that makes sense. Yeah, whoever we're getting glimpses of or tapping into for brief moments certainly seems to be something that is potentially beyond our intelligence, which I think intimidates and scares a lot of people. Yeah. And season two, you guys have the opportunity to speak with Tanya Darrinberger, which I thought was an incredibly interesting interview.

So for anyone listening who doesn't know, you know, what Darrinberger was the man who in the 1960s had this communication with Intercold. And he said that this communication lasted, you know, basically the course of his lifetime. He moved away, he came back to the area, but Tanya remembers, Indrid as well, along with members of Indrid's family. What was it like meeting her, talking with her, the information that she gave you guys?

What was your gut feeling about all of that? What was your takeaway? Ah, it's so strange. You know, I think that there is, you have to, you have to have sort of a skeptic hat on sometimes and a believer hat on sometimes when you're talking with people who are claimed alien contactees.

You have to go in and sit and talk with them in a full-on believer hat. You know, like, let's see what did he look like? What did he sound like? How, what do you remember about this about this about this?

And you know, if you're talking to Tanya Darrinberger, she's claiming that she's also been in contact with Indrid Cold throughout her life. Not only that, she goes to say that her son, his sons, Indrid Cold, the ultra-trestral, his sons, are on Earth now, and they're going around doing work. And she gave us descriptors of them. And it shakes up your world view a little bit when you think that there's actually a possibility that these two beings are amongst us.

And maybe we can't tell. And so I sit back and think, okay, if the Indrid Cold story is true, let's follow along with the family and see what else they have to say. And that's the thing that kind of shocks me. It seems like nobody else was talking to her.

You know, so many people are fascinated with Indrid Cold. Well, she's saying that Indrid Cold still shows up in her house, you know, every several months. Like, that should be somebody worth talking to. And so it's like, well, shoot, what's going on?

Of course, she says that something happened with Indrid, and I won't necessarily give that whole thing away for people who haven't watched yet. But how can we find him? Let's figure it out. With also the idea thinking that it's possible that she has her own agenda, you know?

And so it's like, well, how do we walk that line? I'm still kind of finding my way. But trying to be healthily suspicious with it, with talking to these people, because it's fascinating info, regardless. It is.

I messaged her. I don't know, it's been a few months back. I didn't hear anything back from her. I know that she wrote a book that I have not read about there.

Basically, their life, you know, after her father had this contact with Indrid Cold. Did she ever say to you guys why Indrid or his sons were here? What their purpose was, why they continued the communication seemingly just with them? She says that they are here to bring a message of peace, which is a classic alien thing.

And I kind of love it, you know, where it's like the, yeah, we're here to bring a piece with your people and from my piece. Yeah, exactly. I'm looking for it. And so they're sitting there, but they, she said also, she told us that there are other families who are in contact with the colds as well.

And she said she got that information from Indrid and his sons, but she does not know who those other families are. So she thinks that there are others out there, that they are trying to talk with people, but they realize that they can't just come out and talk to the president because etc, etc. Then you kind of fall into these Hollywood tropes, right? So it's, it's a fascinating space to walk in because we are getting these descriptors of people.

She said that Indrid colds sons are in their late 40s and they hang out together and one of them has dark hair and one of them has blonde hair and they dress in jeans and t-shirts. And I'll be honest, I don't know if I believe her. I like, in classic X-Files fashion, I want to believe, but you know, of course, every time I'm at the grocery store, I'm looking for guys who look like that. You know, let's see, let's see.

Well, you have to be a healthy skeptic because if you fell into all of these stories, all the wormholes, you would never get anything else accomplished, basically. You have to kind of step back and say, okay, we've heard the story, here's that part, can we tie any of it together? Does it make sense in what we're looking at? And I think when we watched the interview with her, we were kind of the same way, just, okay, that's good information to know.

We'll keep that in mind and it can take you on your way, exactly. Now I'm going to be looking at everybody like, well, that guy's got a t-shirt on. That guy's got a t-shirt on. Does he have a mullet?

Looks like the 80s, something going on. So she gave this whole descriptor of them and that is also, and I hope that people are thinking all of the same things that we are. So Terry Rist in a weird way, and I'm really not trying to discredit her in any way. She's a nice lady, but Terry Rist gives this almost seemingly more realistic account of Intercult where it's like, he's basically saying this being came down had an initial contact with this guy on the highway and then sort of went into hiding.

And so if he's out there, Terry gives us more clues to continue to pursue that, for sure. There was an interesting experiment that played out in season two on a couple of different occasions with hypnosis that I thought was interesting and a little frightening at the same time. And so they show clips of something that Greg and some other, some of his other friends had done a few years back, I believe, of one of his friends being put under a level of hypnosis and kind of having this experience that was almost like an alien abduction. You guys repeat this with Carl not to the level of alien abduction, but to kind of how it played out for you guys.

What are your thoughts on that on hypnosis to kind of suggest that these, maybe if these people are saying they're being abducted by aliens, they don't actually have to leave their own body to do this, that it's more a mental state of mind that they're having. It's really, it's a really fascinating experiment that I was happy we were able to get out in the wild. That is one of Greg's many brainchilds about in terms of contact experiments where basically his thought was, I want to get, we want to get abducted by aliens, let's see what it's like. And without, you know, knowing him, he's also done this as well, going to these contact despots and laying on the ground and say, take me, it's my turn, you know, but it's like, well, how can we potentially induce that as well?

Maybe alien abductions have a non-physical aspect, is the basic theory. And that, of course, I'm sure upsets a lot of the nuts and bolts people who are into UFOs, maybe there's something to that as well. But the thought was, maybe abduction scenarios occur within the human mind, but that doesn't mean that they're not real, you know. And so the idea that he had was, let's get a hypnotist who was willing to come in and hypnotize one of us into thinking that we're being abducted by aliens and not let him walk us through the whole experience, just start the initial encounter and see what happens.

And what happened was frankly terrifying. I mean, you watch, yeah, you watch it. And it's like, this dude is in something right now, he's having an experience. And so, you know, I think that there's three possibilities.

And I think any of the three of them is interesting with that kind of experiment. I think that it's possible, first of all, that his subconscious was making it up. I mean, who knows what was down there? And that was, and that was something that was happening within his own mind.