Hello, welcome to Sick Congeats. I'm Dave Cohen. I'm Danes Kerri. And we have a special guest with us today coming to you today from Lion TV, home of TV's Horrible Histories.
Because today we're talking to Ben Ward, the writer, he's a performer, he's a lead writer on Horrible History, the uncrowned king of Kids TV, I would say. Danger Mouse, if you've watched it on Kids TV, Ben has almost certainly written it. So, hello Ben. Hello.
Very nice to be here. No, I'm not. I think I'm coming. Great to have you.
Thank you. Well, thank you for having us. We've come to you, really. Yeah, when I say I'm happy to be here, I'm happy to have not had to move since my last meeting.
Great. Very useful. Very useful. So, we'll start with that.
We're going to tell this first about your performing career, and how you've found your way into the world of Kids TV. So, I started out as a writer performer doing sketch shows and kind of stand up and Edinburgh Festival and all those things that everyone did. There was a sort of, there was a production line when I got into comedy that you went to weekending and the news headlines and shows on Radio 4 Ready 2 that were set up for new writers. And you did the circuit with your sketch group or your stand up routine.
No, you two back in those days? No, absolutely. No email. We were trying to talk to somebody the other day about that.
And that just revolutionised writing. So, we did Edinburgh as a sketch group. There was a group of us called the Cheeseshop who met at university. And I sort of organised that in our first year and got everyone together.
And we stayed together as a group for about 15 years. In those early days. I mean, we still work together now. A lot of stuff to go.
Yeah, yeah. On horrible histories, essentially, four of the six of us have worked on horrible histories or work on horrible histories. The, you know, I had lunch with one of the other two the other day. It's, you know, we all kind of inter- I was talking about 60, but in the sixth one, we all were going to talk to him.
No, we all were going to have to. No, one lives in Australia, obviously, so we don't seem as much as we'd like. So, I was following in that route. I was writing, you know, there were probably 20 people doing exactly the same thing that we all had.
We all ended up with sort of radio shows on Radio 4. She shot did four series, I think. We did something like 26 episodes. We had a TV series on the Paramount cable show, which was the pre- Oh, I remember that.
Yeah, it was basically Comedy Central before Comedy Central took it over from the US. So it was a Comedy cable channel. Is that when they had on from the miller? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So they basically were four shows when we did it. There was Armstrong and Miller. Simon Pegg had one where he was like in a spaceship. It was just like a blog thing.
He was in a spaceship, I think, talking about computer games and stuff. I'm not sure what the other one was. I think it might have been Matt Lucas and Dave Welling. So everyone else did brilliantly.
And Ben Ward. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Dave Lamb did brilliantly as well. He was in Africa.
But so we were following down at that route and I was earning more and more as a writer, a solo writer. I was co-writing with Dave Lamb at the time. He was the co-writing with me voiceover guy. He was a very funny writer and performer as well.
But we used the Radio 4 over the years as well. Yes. So we wrote together for, I guess, about 10 years or maybe a little bit less. And performed together a bit on some shows.
But basically we were slightly getting pulled in different directions in a sense. I was doing more and more solo writing jobs. And he was doing more and more performing jobs, solo performing jobs. And so as a pair, we were solo getting pulled in different directions a little bit.
And I decided, we did an Edinburgh, I think in about 1997, something like that, where I basically took work with me. And so I carried on writing the TV shows that I was writing. I can't remember which ones I wrote. But I was sort of writing for Helen Pace and Russ Abbott and being a terrorist.
Yeah, that kind of stuff. And so I just carried on working in the fact that we were going Edinburgh. At that point, I think I kind of decided that I was better as a writer than a performer. Probably, but they all, I feel like they're going to have to go into this.
The image of all these performers rolling in drunk at three and morning. Definitely that. Yeah, definitely that. Like 90 o'clock in morning or whatever.
Oh, look at him. I think he'll be successful. It was very much, I can't, the way I always felt about Edinburgh is that a lot of people go there and kind of pretend they're still at university. And kind of do all that kind of drinking.
The grown-ups aren't here. We can be whatever we like. We can never special well enough. The more you're in the greatest, the younger pitch.
Yeah, and some people just get caught in that. I feel like they have to do it every year. It's quite a piece of relationship isn't it? Yeah, yeah.
It never hurt me because I just, I think that side of university, I didn't like anyway. So for me, if you go to Edinburgh, if you need to get seen and you don't know people, go to Edinburgh, if you're going to make money. If you're somewhere in the middle, don't go to Edinburgh because potentially the damages are more damage than you're going to be. Don't go for fun because either of these funds are going to cost you a lot of money.
If people have seen you a few times before, they're going to be more excited about the new people that they haven't seen before, who are likely to make waves. It's not so can't be done and that people have gone up and surprised everyone. It's an amazing new show and rejuvenated as a cam. But I personally, I was in a place where I was like, I don't really want to do this.
We've done this. Yeah. So coincidentally, so the point I decided to stop performing, they just told me if this gets a long window, but the point which I stopped wanted to stop performing, we as a group were offered or asked if we wanted to replace Trev and Simon and life in kicking. And up to that point, I've never done any children's television.
And half of the cheese shop kind of went, no, we shouldn't do this at children's television, we've been all the adults. We've hardly grown up for that. And there was a genuine thing at the time that it ruined Trev and Simon had struggled to get into adult TV. Various people then struggled to go back.
I don't think it's the case anymore about long-struck. But back then, it was certainly perceived that way. The case through phases, I think, it was probably the first attractive people to the idea of having even though it's not performers. Yeah, I think that's right.
And the goodies, you know, you had radio on details about the Netherlands doing children's shows. And they went too good for that. Now, it's extraordinary people were getting on. Danger masks were seen Friday, we have, you know, it's on the...
It's on the... How are we worried? That's the idea. We'll be fine.
Good. Kevin Elden... We're on actors. Yeah, we're on actors on the whole history.
It's just not a thing anymore. But back then, it was. And so half of the group didn't want to do it and half of the group were interested. I was on the group that was interested, hardly because I just decided to stop performing.
So just at the point when it couldn't hurt me. Because I was no longer... I was like, well, I'm not performing. And somebody's age would want to, you know, do sketches with me for a couple of years.
I was like, I can't hurt me. And I literally phoned about five of the execs that I was working with at the time on adult writing shows and said, if I do this show, will you carry on hiring me? And they also know. But we weren't going to anyway.
So yeah, they all said that it wouldn't have any effect. And I said, what about some of the other people have done it? And they said, well, they started on it and then couldn't break out. Whereas we know you already.
Yeah, yeah. You've got to track record. So I thought, well, that's fine. I'll give it a go.
And so that was the first children's television thing I did was me and Jez and Richie, who both were probably histories. We, the three of us, became Ben Jez and Rich as half of the cheese shop, doing live and picking, doing sketches and live and kicking. And we did it for two years. It was reasonably successful.
We certainly didn't become anything like driven Simon in the consciousness. But it was okay. But we don't have to do any harm. And you're not getting student gigs now.
No. So there's 12 years on. No. So we rarely get recognized.
I mean, they did it for seven years and we did it for two. But what we did, and we were much more, you know, they're stuff is crazy and they're very good live. They're very good at reacting live. Whereas we're all writers.
I don't actually find this in a stack. I always think there's two types of standard comedians. There's two types. One of writers and one of the performers essentially.
And the writer ones have got a routine they're doing. They don't like being heckled. Yeah. And so we will, and I think that there was that distinction between terms of nuts and we will essentially we'd write quite crafted sketches that worked in the celebrities that were on and we did great stuff with, you know, Cher and big, big stars.
And that was fun. And so we, over those two years, we kind of developed a way of writing. I was a big fan of Gary Shandling show. That's one of my big things early on.
You know, more so than Harry Sanders, which I obviously is a big fan of as well. But timing wise Gary Shandling was a good thing. And so when we were doing live and kicking, it was always the Gary Shandling show that I kind of thought of is that you kind of go, oh, here's the caretaker. And it's Cher, hey, how's the talk going?
Anyway, can you do some cleaning for us? Which is what happens in Gary Shandling? You know, the post becomes and it's, you know, Tom Petty. But he's still delivering letters.
It's like, hey, you know, great love to your bass. You know, it's kind of like a pathway out. So we developed doing those sketches that we did. And I think probably the BBC basically, ITV had SMTV in the last year that we did live and kicking.
SMT, which was the Antedecia. It was a bit chaotic. There's great things about it. It was a bit chaotic.
Live and kicking was beating it in the ratings. But it had to be rattle enough that the BBC was looking to change live and kicking, make it more music based, you know. And they were trying to re-launch it. And so we, they kind of said to us that we probably won't have comedy on it, but we're not really sure.
And around that time, a friend from Radio 4 was working on SMTV and got wind of the fact that we might not be doing any more live and kicking. So I say the rival basically, basically, Famed Me and Jezeb, which was doing more and more music by the family in Jezeb. And says, look, those sketches you've been doing live and kicking, why don't you come and write them for Antedecia? And they were already doing such a secret.
We moved from BBC to ITV. Yeah, I mean, it wasn't, you know, SMTV, I'm sure, would have gone to great heights anyway. But we, you know, we, and it was already, it was already a good show. But we, we, we came on board and started writing much more narrative, I think, stronger narrative things.
And they were, there was a very good, um, as a very good connection between the people they already had, the Dean Wilkinson, brilliant. And particularly, sort of, Spike Milliganish in his craziness, which is great. If you add it, particularly if you add it to people who are getting the structure and you end up with this perfect thing, which, you know, makes you care, but also surprises you. And so that hit SMTV, I think, perfectly.
And so we ended up doing, you know, I come around, you know, 120 episodes, that's something, and it won't be. It was a huge show. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was, it was, it was a great thing.
Yeah, I remember the exec stopping at someone point and saying to it, you know, at a party, calling everyone together and going, I know you don't understand this because you're new, but this doesn't happen. You know, we just turn up at all of the same, we're going to win, and we would, you know, there's other people here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They don't know if it's not in your big time.
And so the second show I ever did for Children's was SMTV. The first one, you know, I'm thinking one of the last of our last of the show, SMTV won, you know, in the same category the next year. And these are shows that are literally, you know, sort of, sort of, seek, seek of your parents, kind of, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know, you're really throwing in there on your own every week. I think it would be very useful when it comes to being slightly, slightly more to think well, but still, you know, kind of a fraught world of making TV. Well, I think actually that live and kick, we can, you know, those shows really help me. So I learned doing, we can, where you, my way of doing a lot, so it was a weekly topical sketch show.
And every week I would write 10 sketches and 100 jokes. I mean, some people would write one and five jokes, right? But my way of doing it was a carpet bar. And so for two or three years, that's how I did it.
And I just churned out with Dave a lot of the time. I mean, Dave became head writers of We Can In Our Last Year. And we would, you know, we'd just churn it out. And then when you come to do live tele, let's say we're going to have to do 20 minutes, you know, every week.
You're going to have to do 20 minutes live. We need, we've got three days to do it. I mean, like, 10 minutes now. And so, yeah, I mean, it was, it was difficult, I guess, at times.
And it's hard, you know, when you're still working two o'clock in the morning, whatever the day before rehearsal. But it wasn't anything we hadn't got used to doing. So I got basically the short, the short story after that. I kind of, I lucked into live kicking, which got, was my first and was a big show on children's.
Got a very lucky guy in SNTV. And off the back of SNTV, I think I was sort of seen as somebody who could do kids telling without. Yeah, and the big turn that's right. But also, because our background was, was adult TV, I think there was, at that time, there was, you know, again, a sort of perception that kids comedy was end of the peer.
And so we were coming in with spitting image and, you know, if I would use for you kind of credits. And then writing that. And then, you know, they were getting Martin Mar and, you know, all these big, trendy stars, wanting to be on those shows. And so off the back of that, I was offered various things and kind of, I did a, so I became kind of head writer and very briefly produced a lesson to be.
Very briefly. Never done that before or since. And I, off the back of that, I then head wrote a Disney sitcom that did, that only did one series, but did very well, I was very well thought of. This country, but there was a, they then did two pilots to do it in the US.
Right. And I went out and sort of, those were done by the people who did rub-rats. Okay. So it was Paul and Joe who were big, some names out there.
Paul was the original producer of The Simpsons, I think. And so I got to know them and kind of connected a little bit with how things were out there and briefly thought about moving out there to be honest. But then my teeth went white and I couldn't drive. That's just true.
So I got teeth white and relapsed, I just in case I couldn't get it. And then I did various things, basically, I just, every couple of years, I seemed to luck into a hit show. And I, people always think I'm being falsely modest here and going, well, of course, we can all see the fan. But I really don't think it was that.
SMTV was already getting good. That's awesome. They've made anybody's stuff good. I mean, I think what we were giving them helped because of the narrative and all that stuff, it wouldn't be good anyway.
The Disney show was good. You know, again, it was slightly lucky that it was at that period. And that kind of got once rewards and got nominated for some things. And there's luck and also, I mean, I do remember working with you once at Big Breakfast.
I'm saying, I think you hadn't had a holiday for like 10 years or something. Yeah, I'm going to leave that. Eight days, two weeks ago, it was the first time in 22 years. So that was true.
I've been to a two weeks ago. Right. So when you're already bored on this holiday, it's so worth it. No, it's a different thing to have on it.
No, I think luck, I suppose. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're just the right person in the right place because, you know, the right place is where you are anyway. It's interesting, then, that's, I suppose, rather, I was going to ask you, you know, well, the bad best thing, you know, one gets asked when you write the kids thing that you want.
The difference between writing the kids and writing the adults. It's sort of effectively your career. You kind of breached the gap really from where writing for kids was a much different. Yes, right.
So it probably shows the like-liven taking their something, but you kind of made it more well apart from not swearing. You kind of write pretty much the same way. And that maybe, if there is a thing that I brought to children's TV at all, and other people doing it at the same time, you know, like some pioneer or anything. But I think that at that time, there was a sense that we weren't writing children's TV.
We were just writing what we'd written before. And I think that anybody who writes any kind of television, particularly stories, it's all about jokes, it's all about choices. You know, there's every feed line you come up with, there's ten punch lines. You know, it's, and there's not really one that's significantly bad in the others.
You know, there'll be, you know, there'll be just different ways of taking jokes or stories. And if you're doing children's TV, you just take it, you just take the choices that fit on children's TV. But as a result, they would probably, you know, I don't think they wouldn't work on adult TV either. I mean, I think it was interesting because they tried, when we were doing SMTV, they tried to do an adult version of SMTV at the time, and we did some writing on it.
But they tried to make it out of it. And so it was just bizarre because they couldn't work out how to do it, apart from kind of adding bits of writing and making a bit more adult concept. The truth was we've been writing an adult show anyway, so they haven't. Exactly.
The only thing that's in the TV was negative. Yeah, they should have, they could have just put SMTV minus the media, could have just put it out at six and nine when it makes it. Yeah, we're just making it sort of issues. There's no good trying to make it adult because as an adult, because the reason people like it is because it's what it is.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, sorry to inject some kind of grown up adulting other days. I think you're pointing it up. I don't want to see Cathy do you, sorry. Does me.
I want to see Hannah and Cathy do the things that they do. Yeah, I think that's right. And I think that's one of the reasons why there's been a lot of good children's comedy, whether it's, you know, adventure time and things like that as well. But horrible histories and danger mouse and, you know, there's shows that just hold up to everyone.
I think, oh, I'm just kind of realisation is coming to me at this point now. I'm thinking about how children's TV has had a lot of success in recent years and partly, I mean, you get paid less for doing children's TV. But the result of that is that the model for a lot of children's TV shows is much more like the American model. So, Princess, you, you're like a head writer on horrible histories, but you're also what Americans would call the showrunner on the reboot of danger mouse.
Yes, I'm closer to being, I mean, the term has been different things to different people. But how do you think like the process of making like these sort of kids TV show where you went to make 13 or 20 episodes? Yeah, 52. To say just doing a sitcom or, you know, like six episodes.
Yeah. I mean, are you aware of that? I think the most, I mean, most UK Adoxet comes a short, you know, there's only a few episodes in the written by one or two people. And I think that's maybe being gagged up.
You might have ruined people, I mean, jokes, but generally that model. Yeah, I don't, I think that it will change. I think in children's, the programs that I've worked on, it recently, it's much more inclined to have writers' rooms. But I think that's the real adult as well, actually, that they're more and more writers' rooms as well.
Things may also try and get as many people to have a hand in every script as I possibly can, because I think everyone has different approaches, and there's certain people within the show who have a voice that fits the format, but is subtly different to somebody else's. And so, you know, in an ideal world, there's sort of five or six people I'd like to have a pass in every single script, but that costs too much. In terms of one of the things that we have on iTunes, and I think people trying to break into the industry, or just what the next step would be, I think there are some table-written shows that we're actually not. There are some, but actually a lot of them are on the radio that you mentioned before, but also on children's, because there are more shows for writers.
So people here were sort of starting to get an opportunity in that area. What sort of, what are the kind of rough dudes or don'ts of like, if you take a chance of someone to say, okay, maybe you might have never heard of this show, you might be thinking, and then one of the things where you go, oh great, they're going to be fine, what are they going to be to think. Uh-oh, this isn't going to work out. I imagine if you work with people you work with a lot before, but there's a few people who have heard of it.
I do, yeah, there are. And particularly high profile shows, you know, you do get contacted by a lot of people who want to work on them. And it's very hard. I don't mind just the email.
Probably, yeah. You know, my, it's tricky, the more high profile show trickier is to get people on board, because, you know, there are, like, dangerous comes in sorts of blocks of 26, we did 52 the first time, and then we're doing another 26 at the moment. We had tried a few people. It's been particularly, this in site digression, but Dangos has been slightly tricky because everyone's seen the original.
And so everyone's writing it. Initially everyone was pitching for the original, and ours is very different. People don't necessarily appreciate it. Just have to brat out.
We've got to be pleased with the original. I've been telling them to my kids when they get started with Banger when they were on their own time. They don't quite understand why it's slower and not as funny. Banger, they still love, they're still lots to love, and we love this.
And it was obvious time because if you played the current version in 1980, people have seen it all over the time. I think we tried to make, you know, from the first meeting that we had, we tried to make the show that you would do if you didn't have. There's something I, the full of trite phrases. One of my kind of watchwords, watch phrases.
That's not a phrase. Catchphrase. Yeah, watch phrases. Yeah, for Dangos has been that I've tried to make the show that I remember not the show that happened.
Yes, that's because I, as far as I'm concerned, the show we made is the same show. But it's not because it's, I remember the show as it was in 85 or whenever it was. I remember it as a kid and I've updated it in my memory. Yes, it's gone up and I've made the show that I think happened.
Then I watch the original, that's not that show. Yeah. And there are some big changes in that, you know, there's some people haven't noticed, which I really like. I mean, there's no people in it.
Dangos is a mouse in the original. Then he's a person in the original version. No, he's probably up. Wow, have you been noticed that?
Yeah, he's a mouse. He goes through a little mouse-sized entrance to number 10 next to the big door. In the next, he walks through the door. He's a person mouse.
More like he's wrong. Right, okay. So the original set in the human world with animal agents, whereas ours is future army. It's a world populated by human animals.
Which people are access now because there's been so many things like Madagascar. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It seems to be. Talking about animals that are like the size of humans.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It came up very first meeting. And people literally, when they got out, I was doing it, people were stopping me in the street. They're leaving the townhouse, but I can circle my nose and me.
And people are stopping the chicken, or you can do that. I can do that. People are stopping the chicken. People are talking to people.
It's really a thing that people have noticed that things come out of a mouse hole and then go eye to eye with a nail. Right. So the scales a little bit. And it was funny.
They didn't matter about them because it was much more like Goons show attitude to reality. Whereas now, people watching over and over and over again get obsessed about it. The original thing, the overlap, David Jason's voice overlaps in a few places where he's not just thinking about the character. Yeah, he does.
And the voice over as well. I mean, he's just saying, wow, don't you get away with that now. It's me having to take you limited. Which again didn't matter at the time.
It didn't matter. And if we were doing that show then, hopefully we'd have done the same show. It's a huge show. And my kids are loving it and I'm loving what's here.
In terms of over the course of our five or ten years you've worked with newer writers. Yes. What are the kind of face-for-a-moments? It's a fun moment to say, oh, please don't do that.
I'm sure you're a bit writer but boy, boy, I just don't like it. I think that thing about choices is, I think, you've got to enjoy the thing that you're doing. I think a lot of people try and write for kids. I think that always goes wrong.
Yeah. You know, I think they kind of write something. And if you're saying, what do you like about this? Yeah.
I think that's a good question. Whereas everything. There isn't a joke in any episode of Danger Mouse that I don't think is funny. And any of it.
You know. They joke with the fact that our kids will really enjoy that. Yeah, not one. No.
And we'd cut it. You know, and occasionally, you know, I've kind of fought to cut things that people don't but our kids will think that's funny in the game. But we don't. So, I don't know what to think that's funny.
Well, I know. But how do I know that? Yeah, exactly. But you have to use only to think otherwise it's funny.
I think it's funny. Yeah. I think that's funny. I mean, the reality is that there are so little, I mean, not not that there's huge options in kids TV but a number of options available to new writers.
You know, a lot of people think, well, I want to get into kids TV in the same way that our generation started writing in radio. They're not even there anyway. But we've all got, well, you write for radio and then you get to write. I guess, when you're doing it, didn't you feel like I'm doing comedy?
That's why I feel about it. When I'm doing comedy. I think it's so obvious. I'm doing comedy.
I think it's so obvious. I'm doing comedy. They feel that they're doing comedy for the sorts of people we like for a year for in which they don't include themselves. Yeah.
I think that's why I did this for a year for when I did this for comedy. So for me, writing, I'm literally just called the talent, but I was writing for it, still thinking I was writing for me. Yeah. But I do know that there are others who are slightly trying to do comedy in Spanish for Italians.
Right. This is the way you're going to have to do it because if it's good enough for the Pythons and the Pythons, I've got it. Yeah. Well, it's your friendship.
Never made the board. Mine and mine and mine are on the board. Oh, well. Yeah.
It's like taking five-weekets at the Lord. But yeah, yeah. It's a different situation I suppose because I thought, yes, I grew up loving radio and I was buying Bish and to write on a radio show and then that happened. Oh, what next?
I think for people starting now, there is much more of a sense. Well, if you want to write comedy, you kind of have to start at this place. And a lot of people probably think, well, Kid Stevie is one of the few places where lots of comedy is being made. I guess that's true.
I think they would find it as hard to get into as adult TV. I think it's really more sketchy. Well, I was saying that to somebody earlier, I was talking about it. Oh, it's, I remember who I was saying.
But I was talking about how there are opportunities in kids, although actually I would love to get my own kids to take on one TV. And that's pretty much what I wanted to do since I left university. I wanted to do my own show because I loved Kid Comedy growing up. I was slightly too old to make Marion, but that's one of my favourite shows even though I think I was 15 when I came out.
And I've always wanted to do that. Can I get to take on one? Forget it. I've been trying.
I've eventually given up and then tried again and then came up after eight years and then tried again and actually unfortunately you've got such a tiny market. You've got Nickelodeon that hardly made any UK stuff. It doesn't make time but you can see it. You've got to see who you see.
You make a bit of comedy. Especially when I was trying to do it. They had no entertainment department and a drama department. And so comedy they never knew what to do.
For me personally, I've got more chance of getting something more people so you want to A-30. I think you're right. Because most of it aren't trying to do that. Or on radio.
Or on radio. Rather than getting my own kid show away. Or on Amazon Netflix now. I think the game has changed.
I don't think that kid's second. You know, you'd be just as smart taking it to Amazon or Netflix or something as you would be taking it to BBC. I think particularly with the BBC as budgets get contracted. The overall budgets I think the number of new sitcoms they're going to get away every year.
It won't be many. So it is hard. My only piece of advice, I know people ask, I think, is to cart people. And this is what I did and why I wrote 20 sketches a week or whatever it was for weekending.
Because there are a hundred reasons. I said this a few times before. It sounds trung. But there are a hundred reasons why anything is not going to get on.
Three of them is because it's not very good. So just having all your eggs in one or three baskets is insane. Because chances are it's not going to get on because they don't want to show about pirates. Because it turns out somebody they know is, you know, or it will turn out that all the things they told you they don't want.
They just have a new boss in and know he doesn't want to think. Or the budgets, they're not going to see anything this year. Or I think it's my worst experience. Back to that Disney show I mentioned.
So our Disney show, it was called Bus Life. There were short episodes I think there were 10 minutes. Which was quite a new thing back then. And we still got nominated for the BAFTA's.
We didn't win. But it was an unbelievable experience. It really was. Oh yeah, it was.
It was. It was. It genuinely was. I was like that can't be.
Is anyone? Really? Really? Yeah.
So that show. Unheard of. Short form show. BAFTA nominated.
Best writer. Best performer. No, not best writer. Best show.
Best whatever it was. Best intent. I can't remember that. category.
We then won several awards at international TV festivals. And we won a big show in the world at the New York court. They literally made a special award. It's the role of boxing of boxing.
Yeah, it's the New York television because we care. But at the same time, it helps the story. At that point, we just won best TV show in the world. And it was decommissioned after one series.
It was very popular on the network. It was a better show in the world. Any kind. Not just kids.
Any kind. We won best children's comedy. We won best children's overall. And we won the other one.
It was everything. It was decommissioned because. Michael, I'm not sure if it was at the time. It was head of Disney at the time.
Made a policy decision which was that they weren't going to make TV programs. John programs. I'm not sure it was all TV. But they weren't going to make scripted programs outside of the US because they were competing with themselves.
So if they make something in France or the UK or whatever, it's going to be going on instead of something that in America. So they're repeating business and it made no sense. So they made a business decision and nothing to do with 20 stages of where we were. Which cancelled.
The best show in the world. And so at the time, we were like. Who do we call that they made? Who do we call that they made?
And even at the time I looked at it, I mentioned it. I'm really right. From a business point of view. They're right.
And so from that point of view and from that moment I'm never surprised by anything that happens. And so you can spend a year writing the perfect sitcom. But you won't get it on because somebody, you know, there's something about the character that's no longer Zeitgeisty. There's something in it, it feels off-fashion.
Another one that's quite similar will appear on some network and be very successful or not very successful. You go, yeah, but mine's better. It's killed pirates. It's not.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I would say, you know, if you find anybody who reads stuff, find out what it is they've ever read. I think they've said it to them. If you've got shows it's easier.
Yeah. I mean, we'll talk about sectoral in a second. I mean, in terms of sketches, I mean, you're reading hundreds of sketches here. Whether it's, I mean, with horrible histories, because there's another series now, we've called them in the process of making video episodes, sort of about 80 to 90 roughly.
Yeah. And so you've got series seven, the horrible histories, and you'll be getting all these sketches through. I mean, what, how... At least about 200 series of sketches that come to you.
How do they, how do they keep it fresh? And what are you kind of looking for? If you're asking genuinely. Yeah.
I mean, what, what, what, what, what are you looking at? What's the perfect two minutes, two three minutes sketch for you? It needs to be history based. I mean, this is a, it seems like a simple thing, but a lot of, particularly when people start out on it, what you find is that people approach it from a comedy perspective.
So they'll go, they'll do the what is sketch, which is, you know, this crazy thing happened in history. Just imagine if it had been worse, you know, or imagine if this person did this slightly amazing, same amazing thing. Imagine if he did that throughout his life. Or imagine if everybody in that time did that.
And what you end up with is a sketch that projects an image that isn't true, because that's not what happened. Yeah. So the first thing to do, if the sketch, make sure that the sketch projects, the impression you're left with at the end of it is true. That's the thing.
So, those are the rules of your show. Yes. They're sketching to obey those rules. Yes.
Even if commindically another sketch maybe works better. Yeah. Imagine if everybody did what George III did. Wouldn't that be hilarious?
Yeah. I know you're trying to leave them. They weren't. They weren't.
Yeah. Absolutely. And if it gives the slightest impression that that that's the case. Or what if, say there was a sketch, again, a valid sketch show, comedy sketch show.
The sketch show, comedy sketch show sketch would be that George III was faking it. Because he didn't like working hard. Right. And so there's a war on, oh, I think I'm filming my madness coming on again.
You know, it gets George IV out. Prince Regent, he can deal with the war. You know, you could go down that route, for example. And you have a very funny thing, like faking being mad to get out of being king, because it's during war time or something like that.
It's not true. Yeah. Right. And also, say, I don't know why he was up with George.
But, you know, that's why it's a sad situation. He was ill. So, again, you need to convey that. So, I, if you said a two minute sketch, which is very different to say a 30 seconds sketch.
So, two minutes go, very long sketch for probably three. So, first thing I would say is that you need three or four, at least three or four big facts to justify that length. Each of which, thinking of it like a sitcom, like an act structure within the sketch. So, you know, do you remember we did a sketch?
No, no, no. Two series of girls. I remember there was a king Arthur one, where he's got piles. Right.
I think it's king Arthur. I might as well see him. Alfred, maybe. Anyway, the joke is he had piles.
So, there's I think to hate sitting down. You know, he's got a throw, and everyone's trying to crown him. But you can't sit on the throne because he's got piles. So, there's initially a funny thing.
Famous king, great warrior, didn't like sitting down. True fact. True fact. But for me, if that's all you've got, that's a 30 second sketch.
We also know that he was in touch with kings and the Pope and people from around Europe. Biggings just get very important letters back and forth with them. And I think several of them certainly wanted to send him suggestions for how he might deal with his piles. So, he's getting these, you've got these big potential.
Now, you've got two parts of this sketch. You've got a bit where he doesn't want to sit down and he's embarrassed by the thing. He's trying to be the big king. He's going to tell you that.
Let me know. Don't worry about it. Let me talk about this. Sorry.
So, he's not part of the image of a great king. And then he's going to, anyway, let us know the Pope. He has more pomp and surface. So, this is showing me how to get out.
Read it to everything. And then you get that sketch. I can't remember the others, but there was another two big facts like that around that two minute sketch. True.
Every part of the story. There's no section of that sketch that is based on something that isn't a cold, hard fact that I think people will remember. People are going to go to the Pope's Senate ideas for things you can do with his bottom. We're praying for your bottom.
Don't even heal that. That's not bad. It's the horrible history that I've written on where I've had a joke turned down because it's only been verified by one historian. And he's going to have to be at least two historical references before he's allowed to use that point.
Look at Peter. It's not enough. It's not about starting time. Yeah.
It's a good matter for over pan. Yeah, yeah. Great general horrible history. Historians, supremeo.
He says Wikipedia is actually not bad now. It's got a lot better than it used to be. Which one to stop us making cheap jives about how crack Wikipedia is? I suppose in terms of new writers of people selling out.
You've written episodes of sitcoms and obviously like a danger message and that's a narrative to every episode. Yeah, it's a very strict part of sitcom. When you're looking at sitcom episodes, what kind of thing are you looking for when you get an initial picture or story? For something that I'm working on.
I would say danger mail at this point because obviously it's a lot of... In these types of strong character stories for one of our central two characters, I'm open to stories that center on the kernel. I'd be open to a story that's centered on someone like the Baron or we have a professor's school and clerk who's at Q character. But with their of 78 episodes or whatever he's working on, there's maybe three or four of those so far of all the others.
They're very clear. Character story, three act, break, broken down character story for one of our central two characters that we've not done before. Possibly one or two that are similar to things we've done before but we'd have a very different outcome. So I look for that.
Personally, I need a big hat. So the perfect example I always think there's an episode we did earlier called the World Wide Spider. Right? There you go.
So I'm the Spider. And the... So the World Wide Spider has both of these. And clearly, so the first one is it came from idea I had which was what if the World Wide Web was created by World Wide Spider.
And that's a silly, doon show idea. We've already got a giant Spider. We've got all the people using the internet and now tweaking his web. That's funny.
So good. Big hat. And you go down where it's where we hide. There's a bit where he's in a rock on the planet.
Big enough for it. He's a rock and a tour guide. So that's one. We've got the funny hat.
And a big story. It's big. It's world. That story needs to have global implications.
So it can't be... Because he's global. And to pretend that it's only London based is London. Yeah, we've got a plan of eating Spider.
And so then what is the person who's scared of nothing scaled? Yes. Right? So what if it turns out that he's never come up before?
He's afraid of Spider. So he's afraid of Spider. And he's front to have a look. He doesn't reveal this.
He took a look at the big hat. So what else knows? So basically, end of act one is essentially he's scared of Spider's and there's a giant message Spider. Yeah, right.
Act two is him trying to cover the fact that he's scared of Spider's, pretend he isn't. And deal with Spider anyway. And he fails. And as a result of him trying to deny that he's scared of Spider's, the Spider is now going to eat the world.
So Act two ends with the whole world covered in webbing and the Spider who's got a line on is about to eat the whole planet. And so Act three is danger mouse faces up to the fact that he's scared of Spider's. Comes to deal with that in a particular way. And now no longer is scared of Spider's faces Spider and he's victorious.
And there's a twist which is that now that he's not scared of Spider's, he sees the Spider as a person, not a monster. And suddenly he realizes that actually they've thought about this all wrong and that he's just a Spider doing what Spider's do. And we shouldn't be thinking of him in this way and maybe there's another way of doing it. And so he ends up friends with Spider and sending him off into space to live on a planet where he can't hurt anyone, which is an echo of World War Hulk.
I don't know if you, because I had a sequel in mind, which we've now written. Okay, so he's quite exclusive. I really like about that just for you explaining that. Yeah, everything episode follows that.
I like you so that the key, the key to solving the act to end about is character. Yeah. That's always the thing that I try and say to people about sitcoms, that episode is that Jack Rose is the one who said it. The answer is, how is this going to end?
The answer is always in the character. Yeah. It won't be satisfying. That's what you've set up.
And also when you find that, you usually have to go back and change the beginning. If you've started without it, the joke thing is about it. Yeah, it's about somewhere. Yeah.