Welcome to the Pike Liners Podcast, episode 316, sponsored by InterSYS Corporation, providers of Poems, the Pipeline Operations Excellence Management System, compliance and operations software for the Pipeline Control Center to address Control Remangements, Data and Audit Readiness. Find out more about Poems at intersyscorp.com. The Pike Liners Podcast, where professionals, public eks and industry insiders share their knowledge and experience about technology, projects and pipeline operations. And now your host, Russell Treet.
Thanks for listening to the podcast. I appreciate you taking the time and to show the appreciation we give away a customized Yeti Tumbler every episode. This week, our winner is Dan Jirconi. I hope I said that last thing correctly with TC Energy.
To learn how you can win this signature prize, stick around to the end of the episode. This week, we speak to Jim Shar with Energy WorldNet to talk about operator qualification and record keeping. Jim, welcome to the Pipe Liners Podcast. It is great.
Wait, let me say this. It is a real treat to be here today. Ha ha. I was so surprised.
Nobody's ever said that before. You're the first. You've got to be kidding. You've got to be kidding.
300 plus episodes and you're the first to introduce yourself that way. I love it, Russell. That's perfect. That's perfect.
Well, you know, Jim, you're a podcaster from, you're an old salt of a podcaster. You've been doing this for a while. So, anyways, just quickly, I'll, you know, why don't you tell people who you are and who you're with and maybe tell people a little bit about your podcast. Absolutely.
Jim Shower, I work for the Energy Industry. That's what I always tell people first and foremost, been at it just under 25 years and proud to be part of the industry. I actually officially work for Energy WorldNet. I've been with Energy WorldNet now for five years.
Enjoy my roles responsibly with them. I'm currently Vice President at Energy WorldNet. And again, I, as, and I'm not joking Russell, I do tell people that I work for the industry because anything that we can do to bring better practices, safety initiatives, you know, all of it to the industry. That's what we do.
And that's how the podcast actually started. We started it during COVID and it was more so of a release for James and I, just to stay connected to the industry between James and I, we probably averaged 20 plus events a year where we would go and speak or present or whatever. And then we kind of got locked out. So we started doing things on our phone just as a stop gap because, you know, back in early 2020, that COVID was going to last maybe six or eight weeks.
So we just figured out a few weeks to get through it. And but lo and behold, it kind of took off and we're entering them our fifth season next year. Yeah. Yeah.
It's interesting. Once you kind of get this ball rolling, it's, it's amazing kind of where it takes you. You know, it's been, it's been certainly quite the journey for me and turns all the people I've met and conversations I've had and the things I've learned. I mean, it's been a, it's been absolute joy, frankly.
Oh, I would agree with you. And it's absolutely, absolutely a privilege and a pleasure to be able to do it for the industry. I think that's really where I think AGA 2021 in Orlando is kind of where you and I and James kind of got together because I think we're in the same aisle right down for one aisle apart and we're both doing our podcast there. Right.
And I think we're fortunate enough to be on yours and you were fortunate to be on ours and vice versa and it kind of took off from there. And again, anything that we can do to the industry again, as I said, to bring positively positivity, you know, best practices, anything safety that's been our mission on coffee with Jim and James. Yeah. And my mission has been education through conversation.
The whole idea when I started it was there's a whole lot of very vertical, very technical disciplines within pipelining. And what I wanted to do is capture information about all of them. And I'm 300, I'm 300 episodes in and I would say I'm beginning to get the crust off the biscuit and we got to eat all this. Well, it takes a while.
You know, it's, it's fine. You know, us two, we kind of hit our groove. You know, the first year was completely awkward. I mean, for instance, you know, reading things off of a script or a piece of paper or whatever.
And then you're two got better. And then really you're three and four. We just said to ourselves, we kind of leaned into it and said, the industry knows likes, respects us for who we are. And that's what we have to be of the podcast.
Just be ourselves. And just like coming, just like coming on here today, zero prep. And I don't mean that as a way of, you know, downplaying this by any means. I mean, think about this for a couple of weeks.
I've been very excited for it, but I didn't want to prep anything because I just want the conversation to be organic and real. And you know, I tell people, I tell people all the time that this is this is driven by my curiosity and your knowledge and expertise. There we go. There we go.
And I have low security. And I asked you to come on, and this will be a little different for you, but I'm asked you to come on to be the guest on the podcast and to talk about OQ and record keeping. And in particular, the reason I wanted to talk about that is I said into the AGA field operations committee meetings back in the fall. And there was a lot of conversation going on in there about OQ and in particular OQ and record keeping.
So just to tee this off, what I'd like to do is just ask, what are auditors and inspectors? What are they asking for these days when it comes to OQ records, when they're doing their audits? Well, the two words that come to my mind first and foremost, Russell, are tracking entries of disability. So it's really a key to unfortunately think about it that if you and I were out on a right away today doing a project, putting pipe down Main Street, you know, Main Street, USA, and it's really easy for an inspector to come by and say, okay, I just want to make sure that you, Russell, you, Jimmy, you guys know what you're doing, show me your OQs.
Now when years pass, that used to be, it could have been, and again, this has been around for just under two decades, the OQ rule. Could have been a piece of paper, et cetera, or something like that. And now they're getting a little bit more, and they are, and rightfully so, really into what exactly you and I had the knowledge skills and ability on, and we should be able to prove that and prove it real time. Because lo and behold, as we know, a piece of paper is only as good as the day it was printed on.
And now with OQ rules like an energy world that we are very much proud to say, no paper, all cloud based. So our question is that when somebody should be asked something on a jobs set that they could pull up a smart device, Android, Apple, whatever it is, and show an inspector as of right then and there, that day, that timeframe, what yours or what my, you know, what we have the knowledge skills and ability on, and that we are air quotes right now, OQ it on. And it's really important for that. Yeah, no, I think that's right.
Some of the conversations that were occurring in the field office meeting were around, well, who is the qualified individual on a crew? And different companies were kind of having different perspectives. This is my takeaway about who was the qualified individual. So is it the crew boss that's the qualified individual?
Is it the person working the shovel? Is the qualified individual? And how does all that go together? Right.
What level of qualification do you need for these different roles? Because it's not as simple as I need to be qualified to be on this job. I guess you would get that. Yeah, no, no.
And that, I mean, we could really unpack this baggage and really go into it because then we start to get into span of control. Meaning that is it acceptable for the crew superintendent to be quote unquote qualified and watching everybody and then, you know, the three, four, five technicians, utility workers, whatever we're going to call them are maybe not qualified in that, but they're being supervised. And it's very different. And there isn't a hard and fast rule in that.
It does go back to the span of control. There's a lot of talks about that. And it goes into both the OQ as well as that energy world that we also deal with manufacturer certifications. So you know, I'm really going to open up something here.
So the OQs again, as we all know, or maybe we don't know, but those are operator qualifications. So an operator, i.e. a major gas utility company, will set their OQs for all their employees, as well as their contractors. And we should get into the contractors.
I'm sure you're going to go there in a bit. But it's up to them to set what those are. And they can also say, you know, if we're going to be using a product or a solution that is driven by a manufacturer, we might have to follow those manufacturer guidelines so they would use a certification. So somebody on a job site, depending on what they're doing, could be the need of OQ air quotes as well as certified from the manufacturer.
And those could be, you know, span of control, could be one to one, it could be one to zero, it could be so many different variances depending on what people choose in that. Does that excursion? Yeah, no, it does. And it goes to the conversation that was occurring at the committee meeting.
What it really points out is every operator, and for that matter, every contractor can define their approach to span of control. And then that impacts what records need to be kept related to qualification. Sure. And then you get into a whole other set of conversations about, well, if I've got a crew and I've got a superintendent and I've got a backhoe operator and I've got some guys on shovels and I've got a welder, well, some of those people probably need qualifications, but those qualifications may be different.
It's not like everybody on the crew has the same qualification. The welder is going to need a different set of qualifications than the backhoe operator and then the superintendent. And I think one of the things that was also being discussed, and this is why this is interesting to me, because when you start talking about this from a pipeline safety perspective, we talk about the org bits or the organizational elements of effective safety, and that is, are the people trained? Is the training appropriate to the job they're doing?
Do they have written procedures? Are they following the procedures? Are they trained in those procedures? Are they trained in AOCs around those procedures?
I mean, this starts getting really quite big and quite complex quite quickly. And I think where inspectors are going is they're starting to ask deeper, more thoughtful questions other than just, what is your crew OQ'd? A hundred percent. I agree wholeheartedly with you.
And it's very interesting. I'll just take an example in the South that we might have a major contractor that is doing work for a major operator this week. And the operator says, you know, for the people on site, the backhoes need to have these OQ's that whether it's welders or maybe it might be fusion with PE Pike. You know, I have to have that, you know, this and the other thing.
And there might be some AOC's. So let's just pretend that crew does that job there for that major operator in the South this day. Then all of a sudden, we're just we're just hypothetical. All of a sudden they get moved up to Minnesota to work for another major contractor in two weeks.
Now we're in the middle of December. And if they're going to start a project in January up in Minnesota, what type of AOC's you think might be up there? I mean, we could have frost in the ground. We could have, you know, abnormal weather conditions.
And again, depending on the application, those AOC's can be very applicable. They might be doing the same project. But what the AOC's are in Minnesota versus let's just say in Florida could be very different. And so it really does take a lot on the contractor world, I will say, to be very well versed and to have your stuff really wiretight.
And again, as a contractor, you are an extension of that operator. There is not a separation of the two say, oh, well, that's a contractor. They're responsible as an operator. So if you and I ran a natural gas utility, any contractor we bring on board to do work for us is just like our having our employees out there.
So all contractors. Yeah, operator is always the one with the license to operate. Yeah, they have responsibility for all things related to their operation. None of that they can delegate that responsibility, but they can't advocate it.
No, they cannot. Absolutely. And it's interesting because as we said earlier, the OQ rule has been around just less than two decades. And I was actually at some meetings last, I don't know, end of the summer, early fall, where I was sitting with some smaller operators, municipalities.
And we were just talking about OQ and some of the realities. And they were talking about the need for bringing in contractors, which for them, it really works well because they don't have the staff enough to have enough people on hand to do some of these major projects. And we were talking about OQs and what they needed for their system. And a few of the operators said, well, as long as they're OQ, they could just come in and I said, well, whose OQs are you referring to?
And the operator, smaller operators said, well, just OQs. And I'm like, well, the OQs are yours. So you set the, I mean, it's everything in your O&M procedure and manual. And so it's still an enlightening, I guess what I want to, again, I'm not trying to throw shade or throw anybody under the bus, but it's just more so what you said about sharing education that we all still need to be diligent with continuing to learn and understand and track that.
And don't suffer in silence, but the hand up and say, reach out to a company that specializes in OQ that especially has, like Energy World that has consultative services. That's a perfect example where maybe have a four hour consulting session or somebody, first anybody, just to again learn or. I think what you're getting at, Jim, is like a lot of other things when you really start peeling the layers of the onion, this stuff starts getting very complicated. And when you talk about small operators, what small operators typically do, they don't have the staff to live deeply in these problems.
So they rely on others and kind of border place, right, way to say it, but kind of off the shelf, this is the way you do it, right? And that's probably appropriate, right? Their risk is a lot different too than the larger guys. You know, we have very large systems and lots of people that's different risk than you have a small system and a small number of people.
And the small systems with a small number of people, it's more likely that everybody knows everything about that system. Yeah, hopefully. And yes, you're absolutely right. I would say that.
And all of those things kind of go to the OQ. And I think one of the things that's very interesting in this conversation that we're talking about, it's not just the people, it's also the equipment, right? Is it? Qualified to be used for that purpose of that job.
Russell, you bring up a great point. And that's something also that inspectors are really becoming in tune with. Now think about it. Again, that project on Main Street, USA, and they're putting a new PE pipe.
So I mean, really, we have three major buckets. We have the people doing the project themselves. Do they have the knowledge, skills, and ability to do it? And then we have the material itself, the PE pipe.
Now that really falls back on the manufacturer, you know, with what they're making. But then the third piece, as you just mentioned, the equipment, you know, it might be a fusion machine. And inspectors are becoming very, very particular about that asking about, okay, especially fusion machines. When was it maintained?
When was it inspected? And when was it calibrated? And those, and that can even vary by state too. Some states are saying it will be calibrated after every fusion.
Okay? That's, okay. So when you have that, that, okay, let's just say, let's keep it simple. Maybe it's just going to be calibrated once a day.
Easy peasy, right? But you and I are there for 15 days putting this pipe in. And we're writing down in the piece of paper, as I like to call it the truck file cabinet, which is the glove box, right? Right?
Right, we write them down and we put it in the file cabinet and away we go. Well, gosh forbid, you know, three months, four months, nine months down the road, somebody says, hey, we have a question about that project Russell and Jimmy did on that. You know, what are the, what were the calibrations that you folks recorded every day? But you and I better have those ready and able to present those because at that time, it's most likely an audit scenario.
And it could be just a general audit, you know, that we just wanted to check on our, you know, what we did there. Again, if it's done on the last day of the project, that's a little bit easier. But if somebody comes back after a few months, I think your world's like mine, Russell, that you know, things that happen in September, if I don't have them documented, I don't have them in outlook, if I don't have them in teams, if I don't have those, it's going to take me a long time to find it and to make sure that it's correct. I want to tie stamped.
And that's where really where you get away from the pen and paper because pen and paper can be done at any time. But when you electronically stamp something that they know for those 15 days, you and I were OQ'd per the operator for each one of those 15 days. And for those 15 days, the equipment that you and I were using at the end of the day, we calibrated, we denoted that in the system and it's time stamped. And once it goes into the cloud, it's, it's in the cloud.
It's there for us to use in 15 days in 15 weeks and 15 months, whatever the case may be. Yeah, again, the, you know, we, we, we, this was talked about in the committee meetings, but they also talked about the some, sometimes it becomes quite difficult, even when that data has been captured electronically and stored someplace, it can still be quite difficult to pull that data up when it's asked for, because how that data gets asked for in inspections is very different than how it gets created and thrown into the database. Sure. And that's why audits these days, thank goodness, though, with electronic capturing are again, there could still be a great amount of work to get that data and to provide it and to make sure that you, you know, drill down into the needed data.
But I remember back then when I was working for an operator in the 2002 to 2012, I sat in or was part of a couple audits in those days, we had reams and reams and boxes of paper. Oh, yeah. And I'm telling you right now, I mean, part of it was like a needle in the haystack at times. Oh, yeah.
Well, you can, you can find yourself in that same thing in large electronic records if they're not well organized and absolutely. And what we do, we talk a lot about natural compliance. That's the idea that when I create these records, I'm storing them in a way that I can pull them back. And basically I'm storing them and tagging them that saying, well, this particular audit protocol question which relates to this particular paragraph of the code, here's all the records that support all that.
So, you know, that's just a filtering criteria, but you got to tag that to the record when you create it. Yeah. And there's should have could have would have, you know, as much as you put into the system right up front, the better you can pull out of the system down the road. And the more you can automate that knowing that, well, this task is related to this, you know, this act, this task, this activities related to this regulatory requirement, the more you can kind of build that into your systems up front, the more you move to, you know, our philosophy about natural compliance is you do the work, you use the tools, the records just get created and tagged correctly.
Right. But that means that upfront as you're writing your policies, you're writing your procedures and you're designing your systems, you have to think about all that upfront. Yeah, definitely. It's much harder to get there after the fact.
Yeah. And really when it goes, when it boils down to it, when anybody were to be looking at again, an OQ plan for their organization, it really takes a team. It takes, you know, quite a bit of people. Sometimes it takes partnering with outside third party experts in the OQ world to really marry that up.
It is not a, you know, so to say cookie cutter off the shelf in a way you go and you're fine. I know that the larger operators that I work closely with have, I get teams and teams of people and they're constantly looking at not only the past and the present, but really the future. What do they need to plan for going forward? What's the next 18 to 24 month plan?
And you mentioned that, you know, going to the AGA and some other, you know, community experts and such. That's why operators are so involved with that because that's where a lot of information, you know, especially drafts and such like that, that might be coming down. Operators want the first, you know, peek at it. If they have an idea that something is in a draft form, well, that's most likely going to become a.
Well, and for those of us that go to those meetings, we all know that the best conversation about those things happens at the coffee breaks. Well, absolutely. Because that's when you go find a guy and you say, Hey, what are you doing about this? How do you all handle this?
How's that working for you? Well, you're talking about this, you know, I mean, so there's so much learning that occurs in the coffee breaks that, you know, it's a lot of the back up there. I want to pivot a little bit. If I can, you brought this up earlier, you're talking about contractors.
I know that there's some, some initiatives going on around OQ for contractors trying to set it up to make it easy for them to do work for multiple operators. Right. Can you talk a little bit about what's going on in that domain? Yeah.
Well, one of the things too, I'll use an acronym now, but a B31Q, which is kind of a, a set of OQ tasks and such like that that a lot of operators are looking at now, they're not going to be complete. They may be 80% where they're going to feel that 80% of these are really good for us. So think about it. You major operator in Texas and another one in, let's just say Alabama and they're both using the B31Q.
Okay. So if you're a contractor right in the middle and you're doing work for both and you adhere to the B31Q that you have all those quote unquote OQ tasks and such in your arsenal. Now, there may be some AOCs that are going to be a little bit different or some other nuances, but that's been a thing with the contractors for a long time is that, and again, I was a contractor for a while, 2015 to 18, where when we did work for different operators, you know, we had our OQs for this major operator in Arkansas. Now our next project is going to be over in Tennessee.
We had to make sure that all of our OQs were applicable. Now again, some were good, but they may have some, you know, ones that we have that they don't really require, but there might be others that we need to do. So we would have our teams, our technicians, and at that time it was LNG, cryogenic technicians go back in and up those OQs. So for a contractor, you're really going to be on your game.
You got to really know what you're doing because just to say you're OQ'd, again, that just means the question should be, who are you OQ'd for, which operator? And again, you know, just want to make sure that, you know, apples, apples, that the right ones for this operating Texas or Arkansas and this one for Tennessee, that you are adhering to what they're asking for. Yeah. And I think that the DCAs got some work that they're doing where they're trying to get very clear about what are the elements of OQs that are going to be consistent.
Yeah. But I think that's what OQIP, I think that's what DCAs working on. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. And that's an interesting notion because I think even if you were to look at the common tasks, 80 or 90% of what people do is the same. Is that other 10 or 20% that you're changing? So, you know, the DCAs kind of looking at, well, what's the base level of qualification that's consistent across everybody?
And then what is the project specific qualification that we have to do in addition to that? Exactly. And that makes a lot, as a contractor, that makes a lot more sense as a way to manage that effort because otherwise you're, you know, you're causing people to have to go through the same thing over and over and over again with slight differences. Yeah.
A lot easier from a training perspective and from a performance perspective to know, well, this is what's consistent and on this project, this is what's different. That's easier to keep in your head. No. And I agree with you too.
And really when you look at the OQ world, you have two aspects like one is CBT's competitive computer based training. So you may need to go on to a laptop or device and take a computer based training and pass that assessment to make sure you're good in that task. Some of them will have what's called a performance evaluation. So that takes it to the next step.
So you go into the computer, you take your testing, you pass it, then you need to go do hands on where you actually perform it and somebody is watching you and grading you what you're doing. So one, you show that you have the knowledge skill or knowledge in the computer based training, but the skills and ability are kind of coming through in the performance evaluation when you go on the job. You don't learn to operate a backhoe by taking a test. No.
You learn to hopefully have a seat in it and understand how to put the seat belt on and hopefully you're sitting with a qualified person or a certified person next to you that will show you how to do that. And that's a prime example. You can't take a test and go do that. I mean, that's an art.
For people that are really good at backhoe's, I give them a lot of kudos because that is an art. Yeah. No, it is. I worked in high school for a couple of summers where my dad worked.
He was with a heavy equipment firm that bought refurbished and resold heavy equipment of all types. Man, one of the things I learned is it's one thing to get on a piece of equipment and move it from point A to point B. It's another thing to make a mess. It's another thing to operate.
Yeah. Right? Yeah. If anybody doesn't understand it, I tell them, listen, go ask a friend with a pickup truck and then rent just a little U-All trailer to put on the back of it and then back that up into a driveway.
You know? Yeah. And then watch somebody who does it every day back into a driveway. Absolutely.
It's easy. There's a lot of things that look easy when they're done well. Well, and that's hard. How hard they are until you stand off look at them.
And that's when I get to it. Go ahead, bro. I'm sorry. I want to pivot again because I was one of the topics.
You've talked a lot about AOCs. And I think that's an area that the inspectors are starting to look at with a lot more attentionality and detail. And I won't name any names to protect the guilty, but a number of years ago, I was working with an operator where they had got inspected and the inspector said, well, what are your AOCs? And they said, well, we don't have any.
They said, oh, yeah, you do. You just don't know what they are. Yeah. Right.
And they ended up in a little bit of a punitive action following that. So I think AOCs is something that's very interesting because how do you do OQ for AOCs? Well, that's a good question. And just to make sure we're clear, AOCs have normal operating conditions.
So that's anything out of the normal. And so when you're an operator, you need to really think about that and think about what those would be. I mean, folks that may live in the California area, AOCs could include seismic activity earthquakes. And how are you dealing with it there?
Now again, an operator in Tempe, Arizona, or Phoenix, or anywhere may not have the same concerns with seismic activity, but they could have concerns with excessive heat and how that could pertain on the system. As we mentioned, North Dakota, Minnesota earlier, excessive cold, when we start to get down into Louisiana, it could be, you know, how are you going to deal with running that pipe across, you know, or through or near that swamp land? Yeah, how I want to table. Yeah.
So there's lots of different things and they really need to be incorporated into your O&M and your OQ plan because, again, they're very specific to you and yours, meaning that, you know, again, if you have a majority of the task, common curve tasks that are working for you, there's got to be some nuances that you're going to be very specific. And I always say to folks, you know, what are the things that are talked around the water cooler about? Okay. So, you know, if you're in South Dakota and they talk about, you know, ground heating, what does that mean to you?
How far down is it? Is it only the 48 inches or is it now down to 54 inches that your experience is ground heating? And as a result of that, what are you folks doing differently? These are the things that are taking into account when you get down into Texas, ground heating generally isn't a problem.
So that, you know, but it could be, you know, in Texas, it's a whole ecosystem there. Well, you've got four major climate zones in Texas and they all have different requirements. If you're in the Gulf Coast, one of the big things you're going to talk about is excessive rain and flooding. Sure.
Absolutely. And having lived through ROV in Houston a few years back, I can tell you firsthand that the results of that were positively and concerningly seen overall by those who did and did not, you know, properly think about, you know, what that AOC, you know, flooding and or excessive water did to their systems. Or these systems. Well, and I think too, if you're talking about just field work, construction work, ditch work, there's a lot of things that are AOC centric that are related to weather and the ground you're working in.
Right. Absolutely. And you know, even within a city, your AOC is going to change because like even in Houston, if you're in, if you're in West Houston, it's all clay. If you're in East hurt, Houston, it's black loamy soil.
Right. So those two things are different if you're working in a ditch. So capturing all that into an OQ plan for project. Oh, yeah.
Bit my boggily, frankly. Well, it really is. And again, as we talked about earlier, the days of having binders and writing things down and or printing them out and saving them and cataloging them now to be able to use electronic mediums is helping absolutely greatly. And we're making strides and we're continuing to make strides in that too.
And we're, is it, it's one of those things that, you know, Russell probably will never be completely finished. It's not like it's like a API 1173 PSMS plan. You're never complete. You never done.
You're always enhancing and always getting brighter. And I would say, if you get a plan, if you get a plan that's pretty well documented and you're adding to it, it's going to improve it over time. It's daunting if you think about doing it from scratch, but it's very achievable. If you think about doing it over the course of five to 10 years, absolutely.
And you don't have to be great to start, but you have to start to be great and you have to get started on it. You have to get really not. That's good. I'm keeping that.
I'm taking that from you. I'm calling my own Jim. I stole from Zig Ziegler. So let's give Zieg credit on that one.
It sticks in my mind all the time. And again, when I talk to folks, it really is taking that first step and it's taking that first step and working with it, understanding what works well, what does it and then going to the next step and then taking the next step. And then continuing improvement. And when we talk about ONM, OQ plans and just general projects that we're doing in the industry, I think those two words, continuous improvement is always something that everybody can agree on.
We can always look for ways to be better, safer, more reliable. Well, if you think about OQ and you just take it to think about it from a different perspective and you think about it as detailed work planning, that is like, oh, okay, that's a little easier to swallow, right? Because it's something I need to do anyways, versus something I have to do to meet a regulatory requirement. The difference between the regulatory requirement and what you ought to be doing anyways is keeping the records in a way you can find them for the audit.
Well, yeah, absolutely. And OQs were, I mean, when you think about it, why are there regulatory requirements? Because we found a way to do it better as an industry. Let's just say that.
That if there wasn't some sort of issue in the past somewhere, somewhere along the line, it would not have become a requirement. But because it was found to be a challenge or an issue or an opportunity, someone, either regulatory body said, this is the way we should be doing it, if not better. So again, here's a baseline, but maybe again, based on where you're going, what are the nuances that you can add to that? Like we were talking about AOCs.
And that's really to when I look at a lot of the regulatory bodies, especially state, they try to work with folks, whether it's a contractor or an operator. It's not us against them. It's more so working in conjunction. Everybody wants a safe, reliable grid.
And what can we do together? What have we all learned? What has an inspector learned from somebody else that they can pass on? Not just ding somebody with a fine, but say, hey, I was over in this county and I saw them doing this and it really made a lot of sense.
Have you guys done that? And then it gets back to your comment earlier about partnering up and networking with our counterparts in the industry. Like you said, at an AG meeting, the amount of things where people say, hey, I got a friend with a pipeline that's dealing with this, air quotes again. And then these conversations happen.
And people, I mean, people are at the end, they're like, they might be a little apprehensive to bring it up. But when they get off that coffee break, they look for trusted friends that they don't for years and they actually start having these conversations. And again, it's for the betterment of our industry. Yeah, absolutely.
Well, one last question. Where do you see OQ going that it's not yet gone? In terms of types of topics? Well, in specific topics, I mean, I think the biggest part that I've seen just recently is, as I alluded to earlier about the manufacturers and really diving deep into those manufacturers that again, if you're using a manufacturer procedure that in the past was just reading the instructions and not really doing a little bit more, I've gotten a little bit deeper to that.
So I think that there's probably that triangle with partnering up with the manufacturers and getting those a little bit down more. So it's not just in the OQ follow manufacturer guidelines, specifications and instructions. It's actually having a CBT that dives in deep into that manufacturer process. I also see too that in the world that we live in with mutual aid and everything like that, a little bit more like you indicated with the DCAs where we can get into platforms where people are adhering to the base, quote unquote, 80% of everybody agrees upon this.
So whether you're in Kansas or you're in Wyoming or in Louisiana, we all agree on this. But again, there's going to be the AOCs, the little variances. But I really see the need because what used to be just in our backyard, so to speak, those world, that world has changed, where people are really going outside of their backyard and they're looking things regionally, if not nationally. Yeah, I agree.
Well, look, this has been awesome. I appreciate you taking the time and that just flew right by. It did. It absolutely did.
I enjoyed it so much. Thanks for having me on. And you always had a seat at our table, my friend, if you ever have a message to share, the door goes both ways there. Well, I appreciate that.
All right. Thank you. I hope you enjoyed this week's episode of the Pipe Liners Podcast, our conversation with Jim. Just a reminder, before you go, you should register to win our customized Pipe Liners Podcast JETI Tumblr.
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Thanks for listening. I'll talk to you next week. Bye.