Episode 324: The End

To appointment television, our podcast about the TV you want to make time for. I'm Margaret. She's fine. She said that's Margaret.

That's Margaret. Uh, there's also Catherine and Andrew. Hello. We're all here.

Yeah. Yeah. Here and send in the cloud here at the end of all things. Yeah.

Well, not really. We've already got a very good and thorough pitch from Andrew for our next thing. That sounds really doable. That's I endeavor to write a doable pitch.

Yeah. Okay. Margaret. Margaret needs a minute.

I'm fine. No. Uh huh. I was debating how much to like twist the knife just like as a funny joke.

But I discovered that I was like pre twisted. Yeah. I'm discovering that I don't have to. No.

This is like when she was sent me the like birthday video she'd made of Henry. Jesus. I still can't watch that thing. I knew I was going to cry, but I started crying before I even opened it.

Like I just I wasn't even I was unprepared for how much I was going to cry. I don't cry a lot. It's just not a reaction I have to a lot of things that I've cried or almost cried at. And like the last two years are that video and playing Mario Odyssey with Henry.

And I can't explain the second one. It just is what is happening. I mean, I think that that's just beautiful. I mean, I think that that's just that's parent.

That is what that is. That's a parenthood. Have you ever cried at anything on TV? Like have you ever cried at TV show Andrew?

No, like never? No, not even one time. No, it's all pretend Margaret. That's the premise of the last episode of our TV progress podcast is that TV are we just doing out and that's all three of us inside a snow globe?

That wouldn't be very like this is individual medium. Like that would take a lot of describe it. But picture Catherine's dad holding a snow globe with us all in. Right.

Yeah. That's the end I see. That's right. I would be so honored to be part of the Mark Van Aarinder.

Wow. Mark Van Aarindonk universe. Yes. Which is it?

St. Elsware's a snow globe show? Yes. But then there are a lot of other shows inside the top of the US.

Oh, yeah, obviously. Obviously, including maybe the show that Mark Van Aarindonk is on who could say could say so guys other than me losing it periodically, but giving everyone updates throughout on the cheap Amazon eyeliner accidentally applied earlier and how it's holding up to the waterworks. What are we going to talk about? Is it final?

I want to be clear that you did apply it on purpose. It's the accident is that it's bad. The accident, the accident is that this is happening. Yes.

I forgot that we were recording tonight. I timed it poorly. We're going to talk about what finales. We're going to talk about what makes a good ending for a television show.

Yeah. And then we're going to talk about how TV has changed since we started doing the show in 2015 and how we have changed as a result. Margot's fine. Margot's going again.

There she goes. Off to the race. So far, I landed on it pretty well. Yeah.

I'm impressed. We have recorded about three and a half minutes. So it's your. Yeah, but I've tried for like two of them.

So I'm just saying, there's more minutes to come. It's true. Many, many more minutes to come. Oh, there is a non zero chance that at some point, the French bulldog asleep on my lap will start snoring.

Mm hmm. And if that happens listeners, you know what? You're welcome. Wouldn't be appointment television without some kind of minor listenable audio screw up.

Yeah. That is definitely that's not going to happen in the next version of the show. I don't know. No, no, no, no.

It's going to be gold. Yeah. Christine, like a crystal. Yeah.

Oh, tiny snoring bulldogs there. It's like a windy. It's like a window that a bird flies into because it can't. Yeah, exactly.

Exactly like that. The bat would fly into it because the echo location wouldn't return any sound. Yeah. That's how clear the sound would be.

Yeah. No, that's how I go. That's not how I go. It works, but I think I got it perfectly for no problems.

OK, moving on. Television television television television. What what is what else is there to say about our dear friend television, which is better than movies? Yeah.

Uh, it makes me want to do the Connor eulogy in succession, but for television Kat and Ben are not quite interested in television from a very young age. Very young age. It's so true. So true.

Um, a lot of TV shows and bad and is a real I mean, it is possible it is possible to have good finales television television. They haven't long running television shows and some finales age better than others. Mm hmm. But a lot of them suck.

A lot of them suck just because ending stuff is hard. Like as you're listening to right now. Yeah. Um, I think first do no harm should be the rule of a finale.

Like end your thing without ruining everything that came before it. Yeah. Do you know how you talk about Game of Thrones again? I think it's implied.

We're talking about cute. But doing less is definitely always better than doing too much. Yeah. I mean, I think part of the problem of finales is that there's so much emphasis on fan service often and this sense of like not what the story needs, but what the audience wants out of that experience.

And it is this moment where, you know, I think some of the best writing, but especially some of the best television writing is about killing your darlings, you know, looking at the story and looking at the characters and saying like, what are the things we don't need here? What are the things that are that are too much? What are the things that maybe we really love and like we know people are going to really love, but ultimately he's not going to serve it and cutting that stuff away. Yeah.

And finales are the moment when everyone's like, nah, just chuck it in. Just do whatever you want. Just leave it. It matters anymore.

We like it. A question for the assembled. Mm hmm. Do you consider the ending given to Stan and Peggy on Mad Men fan service or not?

I mean, the closest that that episode gets to fan service. Yeah, it's pretty fan service. I don't agree with the letter thing. I think it's the closest it gets to fan service, but I don't think it's fan service.

I think it is what saves it from being from feeling like the bad kind of fan service is that it does feel like it had been telegraphed and that it was happening organically and not just because the show is ending. It was happening because the show was ending, but it wasn't exclusively happening because fan service would be if like what Don and Peggy got together. Right. Right.

They started their own. Well, Joan kind of hated. I mean, they're by the way, but that's why. But the way that you know that there are people who are like, ooh, what is that?

You know, and I think it's not just that. Yes, it's that they had telegraphed that that was coming beforehand, but also from the beginning, the question of Peggy and Mad Men was, you know, can she have this career? Can she actually hack it in this extremely male dominated world? Can she and Don actually be meaningful foils for each other?

And then what's she going to get married? Well, and yeah, like is she still she, is she required? Does she have to? Yes.

And so by the end, for her to have a romantic partnership is an interesting, meaningful thing to say about that character. Yeah. The point, the fact that it is with him is a little bit is like a tiny bit fan service. But the act of it in general is enough not that I think it saves that.

Yes. Like every relationship she has with the entire show is in some kind of conflict with the work that she is doing. Right. And in Stan, you have a guy who has done this work with her, respects her talent, has seen her at her worst and come back for more.

It does feel right in that way. It's appropriate that we're talking about Mad Men, I guess, because the unaired pilot of our podcast, which has not been posted anywhere. Wow. But I did listen to like the first 10 minutes of it, not the whole thing.

I was like the first 10 minutes. My starting, my opening statement was, man, man is over and I'm sad. Tell me what to watch. Wow.

I can't believe this show never existed in the same era as Mad Men. It was right at the end there. Wow. Yeah.

I think it's a lot of other topics. Oh, do it. Just throw it in. That's what we've established as being allowed in a finale.

Yeah. But it feels really, for me, the end of Mad Men is the end of a particular TV. I think that's 100% right. Yeah.

Moment. It was a moment that I think started with approximately around the beginning of Sopranos and it was this like huge, what if cable TV is a legitimate, like artistic medium? It is the, what if we think about white middle-aged men and their pain as like useful TV protagonists? The breeding antihero era.

Yeah. But you know what this is? The Sopranos, the wire to a lesser extent. Break your back.

Break your back. Yeah. Yeah. What if we think about television as visually interesting and sort of worth investing in from a like cinematography and from a design standpoint and not just from a plot standpoint.

Obviously television was doing all that stuff before, but it was a moment where like suddenly everyone was like, whoa, what if television looks good too? And they were like, whoa. And then everyone was like, yo, Twin Peaks has existed for a long time. And everyone was like, yeah, that was different though.

I mean, the other thing is that this is the moment of the, of the DVD box set and it's rise that, that lets shows like this become something that people can binge for the first time. And, and like TV discourse as shifting to an online space where like everywhere the online conversation, the television conversation is happening first in recaps and like forums and stuff and then it sort of moves into Twitter. And the end of Madman, I have felt like was this positive and negative in terms of like, I miss, I miss the fact that there were fewer shows at that point. Yeah, for sure.

Nice. And that there was some sense of yes, it was a problem that like everything that everyone considered to be good to television was that white, that male, that straight, that, you know, violent, all of the things that those shows, there's been a lot of writing about the like, difficult man era of TV. And you find it. But it was also possible to watch every show that was really, really doing that well and like, keep it all in your head at the same time.

Yeah. Yeah. Which is not true anymore. Yeah.

And it's sort of, it's really been interesting to think about the moment that this podcast has covered because the downside of the last several years is that there's too much increasingly every year, even more too much. And it's, and I also think there are so many different kinds of TV now. And one of the things that I really am so proud of about this podcast and like really happy that we did is that we talked about all different kinds of we were talking about Americans, but we were also talking about like network stuff. Good one, bad one.

Really made us watch a lot of different like network and cable and streaming kind of things. And I loved it. And I would never go back. We were functionally sponsored by the CW because I think every episode was about like either crazy ex-girlfriend or Jane the Virgin or I zombie.

Yeah. Honestly, a fucking great time. What the fuck happened to you? What the fuck happened to you?

What were you doing now, CW? What you done for me lately? Lois and Clark, the new and interesting. I don't know.

Do you want any of that superhero stuff? Oh, that's awesome. But also like Andrew, like I don't think you've ever watched Riverdale. I haven't watched Riverdale except for the pilot when Archie like fucked his teacher.

That's your old lady in the comics. Yeah. It's actually Archie. I just, that show is so deranged.

Yeah. I only experience it intermittently and it's a great way to experience it. It's a great way to experience it. And it's why I have my spider birch affectation, which is fire fashion choices.

That's the kind of show where you could describe to me two real episodes in one fake episode and there's a zero percent chance I would know which one was which. You couldn't make up something wild enough to not be a plausible episode of Riverdale. Right. I think what would actually be easy like the way we would trap you is we would describe a real episode of Riverdale where you'd be like you discover that the cheerleading troop has mourning uniforms for when they are honoring one of their fallins.

I mean, it sounds like people die off in enough that you would want to have to. Yeah, that's just a use of a little. There's a serial killer gene on the show. I don't know if you know, but that's a thing.

Yeah. And like a lot of people on the show have it. I mean, if there's one thing the US government has taught us in the last 250 years, it's that getting used to people dying around you and just kind of normally accepting it is a lot easier and cheaper than like trying to address the root causes. I mean, if we all like, you're in close.

And so, yeah, what a great time capsule this is going to be cheaper cheaper to buy morning uniforms than it is to try and keep teens from murdering each other. 100% what is our nostalgia for the Victorian grief culture going to happen? Anyhow, great question, Catherine. It seems like a good time.

I think that you're. I like, I think that you're. Teratually when? That's right.

You're men then like, and I, this is how I know that we work as a podcast because I knew that you were going to talk about the like the meta and like narrative end of how TV is changed. I could talk about like the technical like distribution end of how to change. So streaming services that have launched since our show went up in 2015. This is not comprehensive.

It's just a big one. HBO Max, Peacock, Disney Plus, LTV Plus, CBS all access, which was then renamed to Paramount Plus, YouTube premium, I guess, Discovery Plus, ESPN Plus, Yahoo Screen, Di, and I think we played Quibi was born and died on our watch and we did nothing. Quibi tied and we did nothing. Yeah.

I'm pretty excited. Yeah. So they come for us. I know.

So I will not object to that. When we started doing this show, that first wave of Netflix original content, so like your House of Cards is in your orange is in the black like they were just entering into their like secondary seasons, we were just at the beginning and we're still like in the in the middle of this like cord cutter transition where you could conceivably watch most of what was worth watching by subscribing to like two or three streaming services. Netflix is experimenting with the season prop format. They're experimenting a lot with episode length and the kinds of stories that the Orange is New Black, second season begins with an episode where the sensible protagonists of the show just doesn't show up, which I don't think is a thing that you would do if your show was airing week to week.

And the previous TV, or something, there's a lot of experimenting going on. There's a consumer-focused, save money by watching TV in a different way, sort of movement that's happening. And I feel like over the course of our podcast with the seven streaming services that you now needs to subscribe to to watch everything that's going on. Yeah, thanks, Patreon subscribers.

Thank you. It was a really interesting era. And now what are we back to? Like we are increasingly going back to week to week releases, which we have established in our Q&A episode is neither good or bad.

It's just a thing. We are going back to needing to pay high double digits to low triple digits for your TV service to get everything. It feels like we have just traded one set of shitty corporate overlords for another. And as much as I like having all this TV to watch, and all of these services have at least one, two, three shows that I would consider absolutely essential viewing, I don't know.

It felt like it was consolidating for a while. And now it's all bifurcated. Yeah. We're just going back to where we were.

And the streaming core coming era was supposed to stay west from west. Yeah. I will say also a preview of a hot take that I will surely have early in 2022. We're going back to you're saying we were experimenting with episode lengths.

And I've seen several episodes of shows that are coming out in 2022. And yeah, I mean, there's still everything. There's still half hours and hours and stuff. But my 2022 hot take is that the new sexy length for a TV episode to be is 44 minutes.

Like, we're seeing. It's weird how they settle on that. Exactly. So funny.

Like think of 10 last season two and how they all drifted toward 40 minutes. Like I was watching an upcoming show that I think is really great. And it's like, oh, I don't know if I'm a comedy or drama. Also, my episodes are like between 40 and 45 minutes long.

And I was like, huh, wow. I think that's one of the things that I would point to as a change in terms of content on TV. It is like a lot more shows that don't fit neatly into the comedy category that get slotted into it, just because they're short. And as a final nail in that coffin, the Emmy has just announced that they will no longer force shows to categorize as comedies or dramas based on one time.

They are now you can now self designate. You have to pick one. I mean, it's honestly fucking stupid that it was tied to length and not content in the first place. Yeah, at least title.

And hilarious. But like, I also think that for like, I don't know, like 70 years of television, we're like, yeah, that seems fine. Yeah, it's cool. Yeah, like short ones are funny and long ones are sad.

But you know, you know, in TV as in penis, is that right? Jesus. There we go. Yeah.

But also is succession going to be best comedy now? Like, it's a great question. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, what is succession?

Why what's it going to designate as because sometimes I feel like it doesn't know it adds a whole layer. It depends on who you're asking. Yeah, the people to be more specific, the people on it don't always seem to know. Yeah.

You know, are you asking or are you asking Keering Colkin or are you asking? Jeremy Strong. Thank you because it's Jeremy Strong. But I think Jeremy Armstrong is also the person who like Jesse Armstrong.

Jesse Armstrong. You can remember Jeremy Strong because somebody did a joke on Twitter where they did a live strong bracelet, except it said Jeremy Strong on it. Like in support of him after that real hit piece of an interview that I would love that our hero Aaron Sorkin took such issue with. What I would love to have change between now and whatever the next time we're doing like a watch change in television, check it.

I would love TV to care less about what the internet thinks, just like I would love for all mainstream media to just pay less attention to the internet because you don't know how to interpret it in a way that's going to help anybody. It is. I mean, this is another thing that I think has changed about television since we started is that more and more shows have attempted and some successfully to incorporate the experience of online-ness into like storytelling and like what how characters experience the world. We've seen a lot more about Black Mirror, obviously.

The most massive TV show. Our favorite TV show. Well, favorite after nailed it. Second favorite after nailed it.

What a fun, spicy cake. You know what we weren't round about? I mean, you see this in little ways and we've talked about this like the when text bubbles show up on screen and that kind of thing. But you also see it in more and more stories where there are attempting to tell stories about what it feels like to be online.

I mean, I'm thinking about like I made a story. You and that shows has a character who is on Twitter and like experiences Twitter as like having a real like in her life that does something. And I think more and more there are stories that are trying to grapple with that. But that is a frontier that very few shows know how to actually something out.

My favorite show to do any of that is easily American Bandle the first season, especially. Oh, here in Bandle. And how it uses its like found social media footage. It's so important to that.

God, I just want to watch American Bandle again now. A show that is also doing fire in terms of text incorporation. I'm watching the second season of work in progress. And like it's like next level up to and including like they feature gifts in the conversation to sort of popping up on the screen.

And I don't do what fucking Apple does all the fucking time, which is just put the person's phone screen on the screen, which as I put it out was both biggest and classist. Because my eyes are too old to read something that small on the tiny TV that was at the tiny only big. Margaret, how are you supposed to see the iPhone that you're supposed to buy if you can't if the camera's not zoomed out to show the iPhone? I mean, I understand.

I understand. If you think of a better way to do it, like let me know and I'll email Apple PR about it. But I would also say work in progress is another example of how things have changed on television, which is it has gotten way gayer as have I. And I'm here for both of it.

And I don't think I could think as a coincidence. You've just changed to reflect the culture that you lived in. Well, my friend Rainbow said that her friend used to say that she wasn't a futurist. She was a soonest and I was like, oh, yeah, me too.

I'm just like, I'm just like three to six months ahead of where everyone else is going to be. You both are going to be way more gay soon. I bet it's not true. It's not that true.

I mean, if you were Andrew, a lot of people would be very happy. A lot of people and listen, we've turned off anonymous tumblr asks because there's just like no reason to have that on anymore. Yeah. Well, yeah, a lot of thirsty folks in there.

But there's two ones are not the problem. No, there's two ones are not the problem. Yeah. So salty ones were the problem.

Y'all got to salty. So we don't want to let you assault us if you're not going to put your name to it. So yeah, come on. Step up and do what exactly debate us you.

How are you? Like as the TV landscape and all these streaming services are fragmented, like it's happened. But the good thing that's come of that is we have, I mean, it's TV is still pretty white and pretty straight, but there is way less way and way less straight. Yeah.

And there's a lot of gay stuff. There's a lot of neurodivergent stuff that's happened in the last few years. Like there are a lot more niches that are getting at least some kind of love, if not as much as they deserve. And also what's interesting is you're seeing things occupying intersecting identities and like not in like a like problem of the week kind of way, like work in progress is a show that's deeply about mental health, right?

And struggles with it deeply about queer culture deals in a really complex and interesting way with questions about transgender identity and the intersections between transgender communities and queer communities. And at the same time, it's just like a fucking cohesive baller sitcom from a really fully realized point of view, right? It's just exceptionally well done. And it's not fucking showboating about it.

It's not like, for example, the L word, which is showboating. Everything is including. Yeah. I think that's I think that's all right.

I mean, it is all it's so frustrating because it's so easy to look at the TV landscape and feel like we've come so far. Oh, sure. And also we have so far that we still need to go. And there are so many more shows that like need to exist.

And I mean, Pose is a show that did not nothing. There was nothing at all like Pose on television when we started. But I think there are so many more trans characters on TV. We really we had transparent and that was it.

And it was also like, is Amazon prime going to make television? And you know, and I think there are there were a lot of shows in that moment that I as I mentioned a little bit in our previous episode that I think foreshadowed, like I think girls really was a forerunner for a lot of what happened in like the half hour space in the next several years, girls and transparent. I think there are. Wow, Nurse Jackie erasure.

I'm kidding. How much show time managed to make shows that are almost good and almost relevant for so many years? So many. Not ever making anything that ever penetrates into the main conversation.

I mean, I've been talking about one that I think is exceptional and like no one's watched it and no one's going to. Yeah. Show time. I mean, there are there are a lot of these now and show time.

Anytime show time or show time. No time. Show time is like this. I think stars is also like this.

Yeah. Yeah. Can't spell show time without out time. I have yet to see proof that Peacock is not like this.

I would like to. But Peacock is for girls five in all the episodes of the office. Hey, that is saved by the Bell reboot erasure. Actually, it's genuinely great.

I mean, it's also shockingly great. Peacock stand runs a lot of similar erasure. Right. Right.

The most important thing on Peacock is right. But I mean, I mean, it is always Peacock is always like, Oh, right. That exists. And I think it has more promise than a lot of stuff.

But but it is also I'm very curious what in five years how many of these are still going to be a going concern. I mean, Peacock at least has the benefit of an absolutely astounding back catalog that is slowly going to revert back to NBC from other streaming companies. Absolutely. Over the next over the next few years, I mean, the office is one, but like there are many, many long running 90s and.

But also like is anyone. Like, I just feel like the office, there's like now they're like two micro generations that identify with the office and like no one new is going to identify with it because they won't have Peacock. So their whole office, I thought you met tiered subscription is just going to be. I thought you were going to say they weren't going to have offices anymore.

But I mean, they're like, I mean, maybe they are hiding their light under a bushel instead of building a thing that people will come to. I don't I remains to see. I'm not sure. I mean, I think it also like we were talking about Mad Men.

And I think it is a little bit up in the air how long amc is going to continue to be a thing that like it still has walking dead. But every season now, it's like, Oh, yeah, I guess AMC still has original programming. And for a while, it was like, what are they going to do next? It's going to be great.

They have poor AMC who kicked off, like arguably kicked off the, Oh, anybody can make shit. Yeah, right. And then was so thoroughly outgunned by every other company on the planet. Wait, wait, was it like it was accompanied by every other basic cable network?

Like they had basically like for that space, there was Mad Men and there was breaking bad. And then there was nothing. That's all catch by Rachel. Walking dead.

Walking dead was a huge, huge, huge deal. And it's still the only like major. I mean, Walking Dead is a big thing. Even though every time a new season trickles out onto Netflix, I'm like, is it still on?

So I mean, so many people watch those shows. I know, but it still feels categorically different in terms of like there were there were things like Walking Dead on basic cable before Walking Dead or slightly in that space. I mean, what I mainly mean is that for a little while, AMC was setting itself up as a place where creators could come and like it was very like creator friendly space. And they were willing to dab a little bit and it was like unexpected.

But then, you know, Netflix looks over at them and is like, well, hey, we're going to do this now. And then many other streaming services have just followed suit. Like they were the only fish in the pond for like three or four years and there. And then every other fish jumped into the same pocket.

Yeah. You know what hasn't done anything? I feel like in a minute, FX, I feel like FX has really dropped off. This is FX on Hulu, erasure.

I mean, I think FX, yeah. FX isn't a tough spot at this moment. And I think it's because Netflix literally just like poached all its big names. Yeah.

What are they on right now? Because like why the last man got canceled? Yeah. So they're there.

They're new season of Atlanta is coming out and that will be a big deal. And they have a couple of other things that they are that they are and they're they're partnership with Hulu also is is really helpful for them. But I agree that they are in a place where they have not yet figured out where their spot is in the new landscape. And I feel like they're hey, day was what like, like, back when like Louis was on and he was still the person that people associate with or like the Americans was a big signature show for them for a while.

Like, but all this stuff is like four or five years. Yeah. But what we do in the shadows is excellent. Like I have no idea how many people are watching it, but it's amazing.

It should be watching. It's a reservation dogs. Everyone watches. Everyone watches.

When I speak about these things, I don't mean to say that they are not doing worthy shows. I'm warming to say that there was a point where it felt like they were driving conversation and like that's gone. Yeah, that's fair. Except for reservation dogs and what we do in the shadows and when it it comes back, like I just say, these things.

They're driving a conversation. But like are like, are other TV makers, like making shows based on the stuff that they are doing? Like, like with when Louis was on, you had like, you had Master of None. And I think you and you had the Pamela Adlon show that came.

Better thing. We also have X. It was also still on FX the last season. We'll be this year.

Yeah. But it was like, yeah, Margaret, I agree that they were sort of driving this like comic driven, like weird sort of confessional kind of style of show, like based on the work that Louis was doing for a while. And right. And like, I don't think we can.

I don't think people are like rushing to replicate what we do in the shadows as much as I love. Well, and I think maybe what we're also speaking to is the degree to which this has gotten even further fractured. Yeah. Right.

Like I think that's what we're reflecting. It's a completely different landscape now. Like a Sterling Harjo created reservation dogs just signed an overall deal. Tycho ITT came from what we do in the shadows and then maybe it was a race reservation dogs with them.

So it is difficult to say like, there is no one style that they are trying to replicate because there are just too many, too many different things. I think a lot of it now is instead of a style, there's like a much more investment in writers, writers are signing overall deals with places. And I think Stephanie Robinson who writes shadows also has an overall deal with effects. And so it is less about like, where is our Louis and more about like, who is our stable of people right now?

Sure. Which is an interesting model. And if you look at say Ryan Murphy and the work that he's put out on Netflix. But why would you want to?

Exactly. That has his own dubious. Anyway, I mean, it's, it's there's not one conversation to have about like what TV is doing right now. I guess it's the end of the.

No. Well, OK. Then how have we changed since this podcast started? Margaret, Margaret, go first.

I don't think that's a good idea. Margaret, how do you feel about this big thing that we've done for six years ending and ceasing to exist forever? Margaret is your mic working? I don't you're not saying it.

It's fine. I feel fine. OK, that's the only time that's the only time I will do that to you. How we was it to go back and listen to the episodes when we weren't all friends yet?

Oh, so weird. Though I was comforted by the in the so in our first episode that we did post, I listened to the first like 20, 25 minutes of it. And it was very comforting how many patterns were establishing themselves without us realizing it. So Catherine bragging about being what was the quote that I put?

I'm a structure nerd is something that I said that I said that I'd almost finished the current season of VEEP and that I didn't know if either of you were caught up. And Catherine said I'm caught up and Margaret said I'm behind, which is code for I haven't watched this in two years and I will never watch. You know, I don't think I knew that then. And we also just like fucking slam body slammed Aaron sort in like three times.

Wow. It's a grad to us. Like, yes, it was, yes, it was different, but we were still ourselves. See, for there.

Um, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get like a motion like really quickly, like, what would I live even be? Like, I, I don't know how I would have survived the last five years without Andrew and my life. I mean, like, I want to participate in Catherine or Asia here. You already had Catherine.

That's exactly. And I have Catherine even more strongly now. And like, that's a really beautiful thing. And I'm really happy about it.

But like, I didn't have you at all. Oh, and things would have sucked. And like I'm being very sincere. And I think I'm not alone in this.

It's just like, this was a time when my confidence in, in like men as a gender was kind of an all-time low. Hello, Eb. Yeah. As under Harris would say, we're really in a flop era for men.

Um, and having you like in our space and like you are, like, you're not like a toxic Lee masculine, but you're very nice at Lee masculine. You're like, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're for sure a dude. And like the degree of comfort, it gave me day and day out to just like, be like, no, like they're really, they're really fucking good ones. And then I got to watch me come at dad.

It's fine. Yeah. So anyways, it's like, it's okay. I'm fine.

No, that's it's been one week. All right. Bye, everybody. We're done.

That's it. That's the podcast. Fuck off. Well, I mean, now's as good time as I need to tell everybody that our next project is going to be exclusively Shrek focused.

Why weren't there any Shrek TV shows? That's why they should bring back Shrek, bring back Shrek. They can have a whole programming block and they could call it what the Shrek. And it would be all about two hours of different Shrek in the Shrek.

So you, Oh, God, and they could just, they could call it a parfait of my CTV. Yeah. This, this, this lineup's got layers, baby. No, it's, it has been like to have accidentally stumbled into like one of my most important adult friend groups because I sent Margaret an email.

Everyone should be so lucky. Like on, I don't even like, I know I was in a bar and that's all I remember about. That wasn't why I did it. But that's what I remember about.

Like I remember enough about the circumstances of sending the email, but like, and, and yet to have you both in my life to watch Catherine go from, I know she's gotten so famous. I know we've got like noted TV critic Catherine, like to go from what I think was probably your primary outlet for like TV related thoughts to secondary, just being this like jumping off point for all of this like super compelling, super like impactful work that you're doing to like drive a conversation. And like, I would like to think that we're still a place where you can workshop ideas and you can, you know, you maybe like talk about Shrek and stuff a little bit more than you can your day to day work, but it's been just like so gratifying to like meet you and know you and learn how smart you are and then like have everybody else also do that. And, and in Margaret to have somebody who, who will just like send me links to shirts that she thinks that I like because because, you know, you can, you can see something that will make you think of that person.

And that's, I don't know. You guys are both really important to me. And that's I would not have the career that I have without, without Margaret. And I don't know that I would have it without this podcast.

I don't think I, I would have had the ability to think about TV at a moment when I really needed a place to do it where I could just talk to people and not, you know, and feel safe in a way that I could do it and talk out ideas and, and both in that sort of like pre I then need to turn it into something for everyone's space. And really to discover and then capitalize on the penis beat. Yeah. Yeah.

Which you briefly, you briefly were not super into as I recall, but then but now everyone needs to watch. Pan lean into the dog. Everyone needs to watch Pam and Tommy when it comes out in February. Yes.

That's unexpected. That is very I leave you with this piece of information about an upcoming television show you must watch Pam and Tommy. Right. This last, this last spur in the penis piece is an interesting choice.

Wow. I was just realizing that like when we started this, like Claire was not, was like barely verbal, but like really just getting there. I mean, younger than younger than Henry is now, right? Yeah, she was a little over a year when we started this.

So how is that you guys? And now she has her own favorite to do shows. Right. And now when you guys bring them, when you guys bring the podcast back, she's going to replace me because she's more articulate.

No, no, no, no. She's not more articulate. She's more capable of like following direction. She will watch every episode of a television show.

I will say that for her. There we are. There we slate clears articulacy. She is.

But no, she's she won't ever replace me because she doesn't have my Twitter following yet. That's true. And I don't know anyway. No, I think this is yes.

We need to wrap this up. But I I want to also just thank so deeply. I want to thank everyone who has listened to this podcast for all these many years. It has meant so much to us.

It has meant so much to me to know that you guys are out there and are so mostly loving and appreciative of like all of our many weird quirks. So often I see people pointing out stuff that I like I didn't really notice about how these conversations go and how all of our personalities intersect. And somebody will be like, I love it when and then name some extremely specific thing. And I'll think like, Oh, yeah, that is, that is us.

And just you can't to know that you guys have been listening that carefully and that generously. I can't tell you how how important and how special that has been all this time. And I don't think anything we say can ever thank you enough for that. But I want you to know that we really do feel it.

Yeah. Yeah. Like I don't we are in a moment where these like parasocial relationships are more important to people than they have ever been probably like for various reasons. And it's just like when people on Twitter or even occasionally people in real life, like just these complete strangers, like they know a lot about us and it could easily be creepy or could be like unnerving, but it's always just like unfailingly sweet and positive.

And like even the, I think even the salty people mean well. And I don't I don't think people just like are struggling with that natural thing in a parasocial relationship, which is like we feel like your friend, but you don't feel like our friend yet and figuring out how to like tease under those circumstances. Yeah, it's tough. It's a difficult tone to strike.

And some people go into the teasing thing like fast and then they don't feel like a friend they feel like a troll. But just to just to say like it's it means a lot to know that like we are important to really and we don't we don't end this lightly and like so in January on over to my other podcast, the three of us are going to be discussing with Craig a little book. Maybe you've heard of it called the Lost Simple by Dan. And so that'll be our next project together.

The knowledge that you can ask in Russell's book. Yes, right. It may go the other direction, but yeah, OK, keep going. I mean, that's the best joke.

OK, OK, I really, really hope that the book has full color photos from the show. Yeah, I hope that there is a version. Now a major now a major motion TV show now a major motion picture in 10. We're going to do more good and bad one in like I don't know, like April, give or take a month.

Maybe sooner again, the guilty day just coming up so soon. And I am hoping to figure out whatever the next thing is by like the summer. Like we are serious about continuing to do stuff together. Yeah, yeah, because that's been it's been really fulfilling and really good.

And I think there is they're still fun to be at. Yes, of all the projects that I do, this is the one where I feel the most reciprocal pair of social relationship. Right, because it's like, if you listen to me on this, like that's real love. Yeah, yeah, in all of our all of our things, sketchily edited ice cube, plinking dogs, snoring, Mike, input, choosing properly, open, no air conditioning, ceiling fan, glory.

You know, it hasn't changed about me. Still no, still no, still no. No, I know. I know.

I know. Actually, actually the blinds on this window, they fell off completely. It's just it's broken. I'm glad Margaret that we have gotten you out of the closet, both in terms of sexuality and in terms of your literal recording space, which was a closet.

We had to end our episodes before you would suffer. Yeah, don't buy don't buy blue yeti microphones because they are actually too good to go too much for for for at home podcasting. OK, OK, all right. All right.

Well, if you know of any men's button down shirts with really fun patterns, that'd be medium tall and very long and weird shape for a real human long egg, and just any ham. Or if you know of any great new queer TV shows, especially if they involve anyone solving crime, or if you have spotted anyone anywhere saying a television show is Dickensian in Prince of its serial storytelling. Andrew, where can they find us? We will still be on Twitter at ATV Podcast and you can email us at vpod at gmail.com.

I guess at TV pod at Gmail.com. Yes, I can. TV pod at TV pod at TV pod at TV podcast on Twitter. Yeah.

Ask box on TV podcast.com is still open just for people who will put their names on things. Yeah. And I guess that's it, right? Like Margaret, where can they find you on Twitter?

They can find you at Mrs. Righty next. I'm at K. And Aaron.

I'm Andrew writes now. Margaret has a thing to say to take us out. Margaret, take it away. If you enjoyed this, as well as into your hearts forever.

Because you'll always be an hour. So it's true. Yeah, that's nice. And thank you, Emily, for being a person who originally came up with that sign off, like forever and ever and ever ago.

So I guess that's it. Bye. Bye.