Hello and welcome to sitcom gigs the fortnightly podcast about sitcom writing all matters to do with sitcom I'm Dave Cohen I'm James Kerry and I'll produce a Katie story. Can't be with us today. She's actually got a proper job working on a proper comedy show So that's fantastic. That's a shim.
Sure. She'll be doing a brilliant producing job of this but in the meantime It's a very bad link because we've gone from Katie who is a very sensible person. We're gonna be talking about idiots idiots We are talking about sitcom idiots. Yes.
Yes. The people the character number four or five. I guess in your sitcom Yes, possibly. Yes, they believe that those are the kind of idiots in particular that I'm talking about This kind this came about partly because on Twitter I said there's only have any questions for me to blog about and Andy Riley a formerly of this parish proper sitcom writer We asked whether deep and black books and the great outdoors and hyperdrive.
He asked whether every sitcom needs an idiot Which may which may made some think why what's bizarre question? But I would sort of say that idiots I think are brilliant to have in sitcoms for a variety of reasons And I can give you I can give you those now and then we can talk about issues around idiocy We think I'll work talking about yeah But the reasons why I'm always a fan of the idiot in a sitcom and that's we're talking sort of trigger in any falls and horses Yeah, or Alice in Vicarot Diggly those kinds of idiots is firstly idiots are funny because they get the wrong end of the stick They say stupid things and they're basically joke machines Yeah, and visually as well they can be just people who are clumsy and funny things yeah Or they can walk in wearing funny costumes carrying strange things You can always pick them up at the end of they've just done something stupid So in one sense they just they are a gift to keep on giving they can also say the unstable Or bring their own weird logic to bear in a situation So first thing reason why they're worth having in your sitcom family is it were is that they're funny second is because they're useful Idiots often don't understand what's going on And therefore someone explaining the plot to them is very useful which as we've said before We don't we're not fans of exposition in shows So if there's any way that you can disguise your exposition, I guess one way is oh for God's sake trigger I told you we are going to do this thing this time because that's the information that the audience needs to find out exactly Can't tell them that in this way. Oh, I see right. So funny thing Yes, yes, Prince George in black out of the third.
So which one of us is Wellington? No Wellington is the man at the door You know, it's all they've swapped clothes and you know, so somebody Continually getting the wrong into the stick gives you a chance to give the audience the right end of the stick with some jokes along the way Just sort of thinking about black out of the Classic Richard Curtis Ben Elton series they're kind of all idiots aren't they really apart from apart from black out? He is surrounded by yes most of the people in the second Baldrick is an idiot and Lord Percy is an idiot. Yeah, the Queen is an idiot I mean she's almost a dangerous idiot So that gives you jeopardy I suppose you have your head cut off in series three you've got Lord Melchit is an idiot And you've got your just need years and you've got all drinkers and idiots.
Yeah, I was accounting darling is not an idiot But that's about it, right But you've got you've got a whole you've got a gallery of fools Kind of gives the black out of character extra. He's like it's like I'm the only I'm the only voice of sanity. Yes, and I'm actually also That's not not the nicest absolutely so anyway, yeah, so that's an interesting observation So they're useful from a plot point of you and you can explain to them what's happening next to their audience and then they'll probably give you a joke at the end of it and the third reason is that they are wild cards because they They're often sort of strange in what they do they can turn plots on their head They can throw spellers in the works. He's not quite an idiot, but Kramer obviously is an example of I think as a character He started out as an idiot who lived opposite.
Yeah, and in the end he's become this character who just generates very strange plots for the show I think from what I know that show is that when they started writing it they were There was a they were writing with in Jerry's flat and there was a man across the corridor called Kramer Yes had crazy ideas. I think you might be called Kessler in real life and I think in the pilot you called Kessler I think they changed it to Kessler in that actually Well, yeah, he was definitely a real person so I'm not sure I don't think even in those early episodes that he was ever an idiot But yeah, he certainly I mean that's an interesting thing is if you can disguise your idiot. That's always a good thing I think you very much some like doogal in father Ted is he's a child really isn't he's not I mean he's an idiot I'm sure that that line comes to mind. I have your idiot.
Yeah But he's not he's just innocent They're using not going out which yes often seems like an idiot But actually is I'd like to give us a character who just takes everything literally yes, and so yes working out what kind of idiot You've got to because there are idiots and their idiots. I've got We had our idiot in Bluestone 4 2 was Rocket who was sort of a child in terms of he just wasn't he was just very slow It's partly he was very bad educated. He is naturally very slow and he's never really left his hometown as a way until now The first time he's left Edinburgh is to go to Afghanistan obviously but actually as we as we got to know the character a bit more we found what really worked for him was that he's got he's got an absolute heart of gold and he loves animals and he And he sort of he's sort of naive and thinks the best of people so there's a naivety there's an animal over there and I think the more it goes on there's a really nice episode we enjoyed writing where he has a rat called smoky and You get the sense of a book it's found something that finally understands him it's a rat So I think yeah, there are lots of different kinds of idiots that are worth playing around with Sort of sheer stupidity is only really one of them, but you sort of you do have your innocence and you do have your naive personally do have your take everything literally person yeah But yeah, this throws up a few questions In terms of to what extent are we worried that we are yeah, let's take let's take the most troublesome Idiots who's actually a lead character of recent times, which is Derek. Mm-hmm right yes That's uh, yes You take I mean if I guess you start with the office yes, and Ricky Ricky's face was feeling like he was pushing against boundaries You know he would have deliberately he would deliberately countenance racism or sexism or misogyny women, but he would this is coming from It's not coming from me.
It's the other person's I know he's sort of he could put a ironic distance between himself and David Brent Even even then I was still slightly uncomfortable with that kind of thing, but yeah Derek I'm going back to this thing with the office for a bit though Mackenzie Crook's character is a real idiot in terms of lacking self-awareness. He's actually not a particular night at it as well he's rather a relying influence and Sorry, yeah, I don't know he probably doesn't technically qualify as an idiot in terms of I suppose Keith is more the kind of staple Idiot to character in the office isn't he in that sense of yes, I suppose so very sparingly used but he isn't for me Possibly the funniest thing of the whole series where he's going through his stuff What the options one very much so to some extent three not at all or they don't know Don't know okay don't know weren't there what would you say what the options Was the same it's a lovely scene. It's a lovely scene He's um, he's brilliant actor You know Just brings great laughs to any scene the moment he kind of comes into it really and but yes, so Yes, let's make a sitcom about an idiot And what if you go back a little bit really to the character in some others who haven't frankly since sir, you know At what point is somebody with special needs? Are they a comedy character?
And kind of fell between two snails I think everybody felt anyone who watched that show I felt that he was having having made the decision. I'm gonna be the bad boy I'm gonna make a funny show because you know in the past he's always said oh well mong's funny You know you've always got that sort of sense from Ricky should base of his sense of sort of breaking taboos And he's obviously sort of trying on the one hand to annoy politically correct people but on the other hand he feels like he is He's sort of championing on their behalf and I think that show always fell between those two still so it was It would always the more kishness for me always got in the way of the human I thought it was you know kind of a nicely observed character actually and I thought there's something interesting stuff But it just it he kept having to sort of pull back from I think I think what's nice about not to say comedy It's are useful because they're not the protagonist they are the engine they are they cause chaos or they cause frustration But they're not the protagonist and therefore I'm thinking of people like Alice from the Vic of Dibley she's really really not clever at all you know She's sort of really quite thick bubble from our fab as well I know our fab is very cartoonish as well, but you've got these characters who really are Worryingly low with IQ But they're not the protagonist really because your protagonist in a sitcom has to make has to be the author of their own downfall And therefore they have to be culpable for a personality failing in that so Ricky Gebes As David Brent's David Brent is the author of his own downfall because of his lack of self-awareness And so that works, but if you've got someone who is educationally subnormal bad things are gonna happen to them Well, they don't really deserve that and suddenly it's quite awkward. Yeah, and therefore I think you've slightly hamstrung your digital counter does have an IQ of 65 you've got a you've got a problem on your hands because they're not going to be able to give the audience a satisfaction They deserve which is your protagonist being their own worst enemy and being hoisted by their own potatoes Yeah, as a counter I remember very clearly from my childhood to sit on watching those show that I love called please sir By Esmin and lobby and it was kind of based on the film to sir. We love it John Alderton and sort of well-meaning dithering Nice working Tough sink school.
Yeah, he's sort of an optimist who thinks that education can fix people and that he's a bit of a crusader in that He's basically got a class of thugs But apart from this one character who was played by Peter then yeah, Dennis Dennis Derek I can't help him. Sorry. I'm getting my Dennis is my derricks mixed up He was talking funny way and we did a funny answer You kind of you know clearly now you look at that character. This is a character with special needs in some way and interestingly that I mean the good life.
I think was the next sitcom they don't know maybe wrong crumb logically But certainly their biggest success after please so was the good life I don't think that's an idiot free sitcom isn't it? Yes, I mean you could possibly argue that Richard Breis is a bit of an idiot in it, but ultimately It's that's second Any sitcom character as a rule has no self-awareness that is therefore inherently idiotic So I had a slight muck what argument is it with Andrew Ellers formerly of this parish? Who who argues that the Niles in Frazier is an idiot to which he would sort of say well, yes I know what you mean, but I don't think it's any more of an idiot than any other sit-com character It's partly possible to count in my contention that Daphne Moon I think began that show as an idiot In early days she was quite mystical wasn't she had a bit of work I think the pilot she's interviewed and there's a whole thing about her she's so she's so totally wrong for the Frazier doesn't want her at all right She's the only one but Frazier loves all the ones that come these sort of strict nanny type people to come to look after his dad and That's of dismisses every single one finally Daphne comes along and he's completely bonkers and all over again Whatever's you know, I'm picking up signals or whatever She's obviously completely bonkers and Frazier go, of course, we go, greece's terrible. I love her I want her and it's I can't say that she is definitely The idiot, but she's got a very few problems.
She is the she actually character She's not but she sort of she in the pecking order of the show at the start She's probably at least character number four between Frazier Niles dad. Yeah, and even maybe to some extent rose But how character starts and how they end is when you're doing hundred and fifty three hundred episodes is very different So I remember her starting out as an idiot and I think seeing her much was the end You sort of can't really imagine that but actually this glacial speed which sitcoms Change and you could argue that Leslie no been part of the record But actually she's I don't think she's really you know I think she's got too much of a other kind of purpose in life Yeah, and you know she's just she is very proactive I think idiots tend to be a little bit reactive And again, she has a childish manner Yeah, so that when she doesn't get her way she can be back especially when she's talking about Eagleton and how much they suck and Eagleton And how much does they hate them she suddenly turns into a sort of a 14 year old who hates the parents So I think there's an extent to which Any sitcom character is an idiot because they don't have that level of self-awareness I think the kind of idiots that we're talking about are your stock character wacky neighbor idiots to some extent Yeah, and who are who are very useful one that name that came up in the idiocy is a Manuel from Foxy Towers Yes, yes Who I think is purely an idiot by did of his grasp of English. Yeah, and the joke is normally is normally on basil Isn't it it's usually Basil's refusal to teach him English and to treat him with respect It usually backfires on him and through sort of no real fault of Manuel really isn't well again you watch shows that are of their time and We're possibly adding layers of meaning that were necessary there It was like all right people who English people who put on a funny foreign accent in sitcoms are funny Yeah, and that's kind of probably as far as they had it with 40,000 and in the sense that faulty is always at the wrong end of things You know, he probably is is is the more stupid one, but nine times out of ten man Well, is the one who ends up physically beaten up or whatever? Yeah, well, you feel sorry for him.
Yeah in a way that you when basil gets well after you sort of bank feels It's you Has normally got in there, but then you are laughing at Manuel Manuel. There's too much about it on those trains None of those not on those days all know the other place. Okay slap across the face Yeah, it's sort of like the you know when Eric slaps early on the cheap Yeah, man will get to flip around the ill and we you know you are you are I think in the 70s People were laughing at him. Yes.
Yes. Yeah, he to that extent he was the idiot. We can look on it now and say oh No, yes, he's definitely you know, that's always the idiot in that case, but that's how these things change I mean it's just a scab at it as a lovely again and the character Again, this is a show that Comedy writers talk about a lot that you might not necessarily know that well circle ever decreasing circles Which is a big favorite of a lot of comedy writers and that had the lead character Richard Breyer's playing a character who even though Asperger's didn't exist as a diagnosis back then is almost certainly a character who has has asperger's and is a sort of He's an idiot in the sense. Yeah, he doesn't he doesn't know how to kind of he doesn't he's not able to Yeah, it's just socially really and he's in his wife is a sympathetic, but obviously Very long suffering and possible to live in it's almost painful everything else is more than he's sort of on He's it's it's almost a natural follow on from the good life and you're watching a man's essentially having a nervous breakdown Not least it's not exacerbated by the fact that Paul played by Peter Egan moves into the close and his handsome and is rather effortlessly brilliant and he and Richard Breyer's character is sort of constantly frustrated by how easy this man seems to have it and also I think I'll Because I rewatch the first episode what he's the beginning of it not long ago Peter Egan's character was divorced in a time when divorce was not very common It was happening but that he'd he came across as a little bit of a jerk in terms of a little bit of a selfish person who rather lived only to please themselves and And Martin Bryce over at your browser's character is someone who is incredibly communities minded at the very very start the episode He's waving off some boys that he's just taking to a football match to play and they've clearly been beaten 10-0 or something Yeah, and he's still beaming and comes in and smiling and everything It's a really good.
I think I used on my blog as an example of when you first meet a character The phone yeah, he walks in he turns the phone round he hands it something everything he says about him It's just like wow here is this this character And I think it's a really good way of introducing him so I do recommend going back and watching that yeah But it's worth so it's worth working out if you're going to have an idiot whether you're on the side of the angels or not And what sort of idiot you have rather saying are there an idiot or they're stupid I mean in what way are they stupid are they naive are they too trusting are they? Or are they not trusting enough as an idiotic in the sense of they're a conspiracy theorist and they don't trust anybody and or So there are lots of different variations you can play and how useful are they to your yes your show generally and You mentioned friends how they don't know kind of you've got two idiots there roughly I mean you got Joey and and Phoebe who are sort of idiots But then again like you say they're they have at their each other purpose beyond just being an idiot Yes, so yeah, Joey's idiocy is shallowness as well as not being very bright because he clearly hasn't really read any books and Phoebe's idiocy is cookiness and not quite concerned but sort of Guy a mother nature e stuff But then they sort of bring out a kind of a street smartness about her that she clearly lived on the streets at some point So you have a terrible terrible terrible backstory. Yeah, find out about two seasons in yeah And it's sort of it kind of allows suddenly you kind of think yeah, no one's here. Yeah immediately Tipathetic more sympathetic to and also with Joey for you know, he is yes, okay He's good looking he gets although attractive women and he's an actor You know he doesn't have any responsibilities etc, but he actually then becomes quite a good Good, he's the right friend for he's the wrong friend for Chandler's having so many ways yeah, and that you know Chandler is obviously a neurotic mess But as a sort of classic odd couple And we've talked before that odd couples and that's just one aspect of friends is that the odd couple of those two sharing a flat and he's actually his directness his He becomes a kind of Almost like a sort of guiding light for you know Actually if I could be if Chandler could be a bit more like Joey a bit less too smart for his own good Yeah, yeah, then you know he can he could become a best person and also Joey actually can help him as well in ways that You don't imagine yeah, but they were because Actually the idiot is quite a good person to have around with that point.
Yes. Yeah, yeah The idiot says the funny thing and it's a it's a good it's a good funny thing to have absolutely And I think I'm just running this off the the other so you've got idiots who are So what maybe it's a function of the fact that people are now feeling slightly ethically icky about idiots Because it seems that the new world card that we're getting a lot in sitcoms is sociopaths Yeah, and you mentioned this to me and I couldn't really thought about that before and you're right It's definitely there are these kind of characters who just and that they don't have to have a reason to do things do they know They just seem to be mind-mind-mountingly selfish and unapologetic There was one in The the girlfriend of the Sun in mum which I tried which I was episode off Which is I mean for the right. Yeah, I didn't much like him and her either It's not really for me and I was interested to say for me. I just thought no one would ever say what you've just said You made some really crass comments about this And I just thought I don't know I mean people seem like that shown it's done very well And so it's not for me to explain why it's not been successful because it has been but for me I just thought that's quite we're getting quite a lot of sociopathy.
Yeah Quite sociopathic and yeah, you'll see a lot of these characters where they're in one sense we've with these idiots We sometimes feel guilty, but now instead we're getting characters They were doing terrible things and they feel no guilt for the way in which they are and I've wondered if there's a sort of backlash because And this is a bug where that James and I we both have is when producers say to you can you make your character more likable and You sort of say well actually not really you know It's quite good when a comedy character isn't necessarily likeable and that some of these characters are nothing is it? I watched a little bit that show flowers. Oh, yes, and they were very sort of dysfunctional characters and you know that it's not about the fact that they're not likable it's sort of about Engage it. How do you engage with a character and you don't have to like the character to engage with them?
And I do find sometimes with these sort of sociopathic characters I'm not as interested to know what's gonna happen because I don't feel I don't I don't feel invested in these people I would do in the character like black and I don't necessarily like but I'm really curious to see He feels sorry for the people surrounded by idiots. Yeah, you also don't house you gonna He's quite clever. How's he gonna get out of this? Yeah, and you sort of think of it in the ways that I know you mentioned that the more I think about it.
Yes, a lot of modern sitcoms and have these characters who just don't it's like they don't have any kind of moral No, it's all it's kind of on you version of idiocy maybe um there was Camping on Sky which I was talking about and that again my initial reaction to that show was being pushed away by a character by Vicki Pepperdine who was just a truly a genius Yeah, because I'm a writer of 1990 which was also Yeah, associate pathic in it. Yeah, the heroine was you know I'd yeah, and I mean I could take so much of that and I know that you know people who are self-obsessed We know people who are self-obsessed and that fantastic opening scene in the 1990 where Kevin Elden's playing the husband and the doctor says I've got some bad news You know you've got you've got cancer You've got six months to live and the wife treated David's cancer Oh, why do these things always happen to me? Yeah, it's just a beautiful brilliant. Yeah, but then This comes to so unsympathetic.
I do find it hard to con I know a lot of people love you know It's rising and she's a brilliant writer, but I find it quite hard to To kind of really get something you know get Investing that But maybe that's the thing maybe that is the yeah, I do feel free feel free to email us on your thoughts on whether Sociopathy is the new idiocy in sitcoms. That's a piece of my email is But I just really throw out those are theory anyway for me the take home is just I think in answer to Andy's question Are sitcoms disserted to sitcom the idiot? I would say probably the second is our idiots, but they are very very useful But it is worth once you've decided you're gonna have an idiot and who they are It's just worth thinking what kind of idiot are they and is this someone who we need to be a little bit worried about? in which case you just need to handle them quite carefully because Because attitudes now are not what they were yeah, and that's probably a good thing.
I think so I think it is generally a good thing. It's always generally a good thing You know to just think about really think about why your characters there? What are they doing in that show and if they are there just to get just a bit left after other than with then I'd say They've got a fairly limited shelf life anyway, but that's what that's so there we go sick. Yeah, yeah Controversy carries on.
I do not have definitive answers on this but I would agree with it with James generally there. Yes Idiots are useful. I use for videos. Well, yes, there is there is expression of these videos So called coin by learning, but apparently probably not anyway.
We're done. That's us. Yes. Well, and we'll be back again soon I must have just mentioned that we you've got a sitcom on the radio by the time this podcast is being pushed out into the ether It will hopefully be on iPlayer and it's called be lucky on BBC Wales radio It's on BBC Radio Wales and it should be an iPlayer it stars Milton Jones and Elks James and Joe Joyner And it's a bunch of old nonsense written by me.
What's about? It's about two people who live in a cottage in the middle of Snowdonia and they only contact with the civilisation apart from the internet is by the postman who was played by Milton Jones and It's I was aware as I was writing this and getting close to the deadline. I didn't really know what the show was about But I think there's a lot of self-defeating logic in it. It is a little bit sketchy in terms of its a lot of ideas So we're floating around In the sense in which they're all idiots actually I think all three of them are idiots.
So but anyway discuss Yes, be lucky. Yes, be lucky. I shall be tuning in on my player or heading off to Wales just So I'm jumping around. I'm not sure I get.
You are doing some workshops, I believe. Yes, that's right. Come and join me actually I'm doing a couple of days a day about how to make a living at comedy Which is something that you have done for decades? 33 years coming up November 1983 when I started Man of Boy.
Man and slightly younger man. And how to write sitcom and Although don't ask me for a definitive answer on the idiots or sociopaths because I haven't without yet I'm still working out the answer on that one. That's on the 16th and 17th of November in the canal museum in Kings Cross No reason why except for the only venue near the West End of London that I can afford to hire. So perfectly decent room Yeah, and where can people find out about that?
Dave Cohen.org.uk. Thank you for that feed line there Dave Kevin.org.uk. I'm sure you'll learn about it. To write to us we are, apologise we're behind on our 10 pages, first 10 pages We've got lots of them to catch up on which we will be doing very soon and we promise any questions email them to us at Congeeks.gmail.com Facebook with Look at us on 6com Geeks on Facebook, like us and make us feel happy at 6com Geek on Twitter for James and that kind of Dave for me and yes well thank you very much I'll produce a Katie story and I'll hopefully have turned this rambling into comedy gold and so we shall speak to you again In the front mic.
Bye