hello this is sitcom geeks podcast it's a little bit chaotic here we're at the writers guild and we have some special guests with us which is very exciting there's dave karen here obviously hello we also have the wonderful case on them hello we have the lovely carrie quinnon hello the delightful joe morris hello and the amazing abby albertus hi a series of adjectives there you should describe people please don't read anything into them we've just been meeting as well let's record a podcast right afterwards and talk about the thing that writers love to talk about which is money they do say that aspiring writers talk about writing actual writers talk about money um i think there's something there's some truth in that the word is not talk the word is moan yes that's something that we do people have said a collective of writers a moan of writers i think is a good description so good reason with good reason so um let's talk a bit about money from a comedy perspective it's all about having the uh right expectations about writing and money so for example did anyone here when they started writing comedy think oh i think what would be a great way to make money would be to write comedy did anyone think that or do you see it more as an illness do you know what i kind of did i'm embarrassed to say that i kind of did but that's only because in my defense i was an actress and you know that's so you know i didn't know what i was doing yeah no i didn't want to step up i realize i'm in my mistake but they are a writer just acting who can't be bothered to do bar work i was talking about something i wanted to do as a kid but the first person i wanted to give you advice was ian davidson who wrote a story about barry humphries and he had a very nice house i remember leaving his house there's money in this so i was kind to talk about the fact that he had a very long and good career writing but they met them ironically as comedy writers we are among some writers who actually have a chance of making money and i often say to people i'm very lucky that i happen to be able to write comedy because if i was equivalently good at writing poetry my house would not be as good as it is now there's not great money in poetry but as it happens i can write situation comedy rather than poems and that's that's not fair i mean in the 1600s sitcom writing skills very limited but i would have cleaned up as a bar i'm sure what's happened in the last few years and you could have said novelist instead of poet because certainly in the last few years the amount of money that has been available for writers has diminished at every level and certainly i know a lot of people i know people who are novelists and uh they their careers have basically finished because they were uh they were doing okay they were selling a few thousand uh books but now the world of publishing is such that they they've kind of fallen by the waste and a kind of similar thing uh if you don't the committee uh bear me out on this but it seems to be happening with comedy as well there seems to be less money around even though there's not necessarily less shows have we found that generally there's no development there's only something's happened if you're working publishing if you're going with a good idea for a book they now say okay go and write the whole thing or they used to give you money for a couple of chapters there's you should probably prove yourself a last one to write the whole novel which i'm sure wasn't always the case back in there i've pitched put in publishers and be told to go and write it um here's something so you can eat while you're writing you should go away and write it oh thank goodness you're right yeah because i think with comedy it was always that you were doing the job as a craft because there's lots that you feel it's not like writing a book of poems or a book of poems it's a process isn't it yeah you're part of a bigger it's a collaborative thing so the information was always there for you to develop work and increasingly they're asking for scenes for free and whole scripts for free which is new and wrong yeah there's also the problem is whether there's more money or not in the system i don't know because there are now more channels and there are lots of comedies and the same number of comedies used to be on three or four channels and now on 15 channels but the other issue is that there is money but to what extent is our experience of having thought oh i bet you i could get paid if i came up with that kind of idea or did that kind of show and then you've slightly resented it or it hasn't worked out or the game has changed and you just think oh i should have just written a show that i wanted to do rather than a show which i thought i'd be paid for does cynical writing work you get asked to do cynical writing i think that's the difference is that you can always get some work if you're a professional comedy writer and write to order and i would expect oh right can you nobody told us and if you did that someone asked you to do it i wouldn't do this one ask can i have some of your jokes and i would expect you pay for that and i think there's a blurring to that and pure creative expression that they're expecting increasingly do not pay in terms of the writing where you've got a blank sheet of paper and you think i am a sitcom writer i would like to write a sitcom or i bet you they really want and at the moment they do still want bbc 1830 pre-watershed three camera sitcom shows and it may be that you think oh i've only had to think of one of those and actually you're not that kind of writer and you'd be better off writing a single camera channel 4 show is that worth jumping through the hoops or well i've done that i've certainly done that at least twice in my career only twice wow that's good well two years development that stretch oh wow a stretch oh wow a stretch oh wow a stretch oh man oh man and so yeah i have done that and i've got mixed feelings about it because that was in the days when you did get paid for a script please so you know i got paid for my work or whatever but i was developing probably slightly outside what i felt was my voice as a writer a little bit and then when i did the thing that i was asked to do which was come up with a big old you know sitcom that's got a big lead in it and an audience a sitcom multi-caravan etc etc i was then really didn't get it commissioned because it was a female lead and there were so few people who they would accept as a female lead on bc1 right so once the people they would accept didn't go forward then i didn't get a commission were there any women they'd accept as a female lead no actually that did become a male lead at a certain point are you saying that you came up with mrs brown's work that's what i'm hearing i've been told once and it's not that long ago where we pitched in a sitcom that we said we'd like to run something that's a female lead there and we had a quite a bit different and we suggested olivia colman and we were told the pvc i would never make anything with olivia colman as a lead i love that film there was a world in which she wasn't a bad product she's a character and plenty they're very very similar aren't they how long ago with that i probably said my third series of my wife so she did okay there's a list isn't there for a channel of like people who they will or won't accept i don't know if you've told me that either because the number of women who were accepted to be able to lead a show instead of a show was tiny well to be fair it's the same with men there's a list of men as well but there's a much bigger list of men so you've got more chance there was a period where that list of men by ITV contained only the words sean bean that was it no matter what you typed into a day casting database the word sean bean came out that was it we had a few questions well a couple of questions we asked on twitter if anyone had questions bearing in mind we're making this podcast somebody christian corley has asked us what is the difference for instance between bbc audio rates against something like youtube bill bailey always used to say they always have comedy these sort of joke contests they used to have at stand-up gigs i don't know if they still do them and the question would always be something topical what's the difference between and bill bailey would say right he would put in the answer every time would be eight quid and he would win the joke competition several times what's the difference between theresa and am article 50 eight quid it's a very versatile just an answer to that though about the audio i'll make a quick answer first of all about the youtube aspect which was that the answer would almost certainly have been don't even think about youtube in the last two years that has changed now it is actually possible to make a small amount of money from royalties from youtube but or a large amount of money if you're an unboxer yeah if you are a kind of youtube star you'll be able to be you're boxing with a way of boxing you're not unboxing you find something from a shop you find something from a shop you have the rest you unbox it on youtube and you share it to people yeah then you do have enough of youtube stars the look on Carrie's face is priceless it's not the technology if it's boys or make-up with girls but not exclusively but if you want to unbox you have to be like 19 yeah i'm just saying i'm getting distracted from this thank you i'm going to go back and become a much younger i'm just going to go back and get an old zilla we should just very quickly before k answers that we should quickly refer back to the more general question because jens and i have dealt with this is it worth me making a youtube sketch or is it worth me doing a podcast we would always say podcasts are a hell of a lot cheaper youtube however much money you spend on it however good the people you get to do it it never is going to look as good as a proper broadcast show so we would say if you want to do something off your own bat podcast is probably a wise choice unless you're really good looking unless you're really good looking unless your idea is strictly visual the beauty of podcasting is that you can do something that's almost broadcast quality for zero money to make a youtube video that's almost broadcast quality you can spend thousands of pounds and still not manage it but that said if you have an idea that is very easy to do like jenna marbles it's just funny talking to her screen and that works for her and that's great isn't it the same as making a film if you have a low light of features just use what you've got so if you've got two friends who are good looking at a shed and that's all your film needs then you're going to be fine it's sounding like porn I'm just saying go where the money is I'm going to start an unboxing podcast I'm going to start a porn unboxing podcast I'm going to go on your own I'm going to have to unbox it I'm going to have to unbox it can you say something about audio rates no I think you were just wondering whether we were going to answer the question no I was just wondering whether you were going to answer the question because I was going to say surely nowadays you probably could make more on youtube I don't think so and I think radio is still viable I don't think the money has gone up in radio for quite a long time but it's a great place to make a start it's proper it's broadcast people can hear it it'll end up on iPlayer so you're not really doing it for the money at this point anyway and so if you do something with it's going to be BBC radio you're going to be produced you're going to improve as a writer whereas if you do anything on youtube you're really learning in the dark but also you're learning in plain view of everybody else so I think it's a very double edged sword there's no barriers to market which is good in a way but there's another way in which those barriers are actually there partly for a reason and do increase the quality obviously sometimes you might listen to the radio for and just want to dive into the central reservation but actually the standard's pretty good and you know that is not the case on youtube also 90% of learning to be a professional writer isn't learning to write it's learning to take notes do work with other people and have to learn to take advice and have to work in a collaborative environment so if you're just doing it on your own at the beginning if you stay on your own you won't actually really learn yeah we've been from a really privileged position of being in a position we've all had commissions we can all get on radio at some point and not everyone can do that it's true to say that if you can't and you're out there and you want to write stuff do yourself go for it that's true I came off the internet and it's really good and it's really cheap that's where you could just build the gift of Sandra Cohen and get a book deal but also although anyone can not everyone can get a radio show that may be true but everyone can write a script everyone can write a PDF script everyone can listen to the radio hear a radio producer who creates stuff that makes things that they like or produce the stuff that they like and can send it to them and I think if you've got time after work to actually work hard on something I think working hard on the script which will get you work rather than a YouTube video for some people will reap greater dividends can I actually ask you about because as you said you came through putting stuff up on the internet didn't you the glorious family examiner I tried laughing obviously the internet has changed slightly there was only two of us back then it was us and Charlie Broker and America was the onion what would you say to someone now who's thinking oh I shall set up like a spoof website the point about it is it's got no barriers to entry that's what I'm concerned it's about YouTube there's no barriers to entry what you've got will work and look good and it needs to look as good as a professional one then do it because I don't do one that doesn't look as good as that because actually it's not hard to make it look as good as a real one because the technology is the same it's different than you can't get an HD camera and lighting and access but you can make something that graphically looks like an innovations catalogue or something and it will stand alongside the real versions of the Christmas time but to be honest do something that looks like this you can do that online but it's aimed at something you can achieve and then it will stand on to you and get forwarded and the joy of the internet is to be forwarded to each other in a way that they don't do radio so you can build an audience and it is a different audience as well I mean Radio 4 radio comedy best in the world it is a slightly older audience you know if you're on YouTube then you're looking at a different kind of audience a younger audience the reason that we did in the first place we wanted to have access to comedy and do comedy and we found out it cost £25 to our website and if you say compared to how much it costs to launch a magazine or do a sketch night or something like that it's quite cheap and you can do it you can fit it around other things you can do it in the bedroom at night you can do it at working length of eight rather than or with two friends in a chef and when you send off your script your nice media script that you've written and you say look I've already done this do it more critical it's a bit of a bait but it's a bait I've just time for one more question from that internet that we'll be talking about specifically from Twitter yes no I'm not quite sure it says if one was to choose from Jonah Faisal it says if one was to choose crowdfunding models for a podcast sitcom project what perks seem pointless perks for funders now I know what it is I think that's when you do a Kickstarter or something for a thousand pounds you get a free copy of the video you get to come round to my house this is the chef so I mean I've just this is a push for time I'm going to jump in so I've run a Kickstarter campaign to turn a play I did into a DVD called Google Podcast and that went quite well but it's worth saying I think people do think of Kickstarter as a little bit of a magic wand in terms of suddenly money turns up from the sky and I would imagine and I spoke to one or two other people who have run Kickstarter campaigns that you probably know or know people who know every single person who backed your Kickstarter campaign the number of people you've literally never heard of suddenly deciding to give a total stranger some money I think is very very low so there's a sense in which the people who are giving you money to do it don't really care what they get in return because they just want you to succeed now I may be very wrong about that but in terms of zero budget comedy type of ideas that we're talking about on this show they're not going to money's not going to appear out of the sky I think the perks can be a little bit of a red herring so they offer what you can but I think any obvious do's and don'ts on that has to be with the framework of the fact that everyone we've all been invited to kickstarters and that kind of stuff what are the things that make you want to join in or not join in? I think you can sometimes get there can be specific instances where it's worth doing a Kickstarter at all but I think it's probably only worth niche interest so you've got like if you say I don't know you've got a thing that you want to sell you've got a particular you've got a neurological condition that your main character also has then you know sure do that and sell it to people who are also interested in that neurological condition but I think generally unless you've got a I mean I want to see a Kickstarter for therapy niche interest of feminism, and so we did get a few strangers, but we did get a few people who were strangers invested because it had a particular interest, but I think it's, I think you've got to be, I think the general fund me to do my idea, which I basically want to do, and yeah, it's a little bit, would you like to sponsor me to go on holiday? I disagree with Dan now, I totally disagree, we've now had a sitcom pilot totally funded on Kickstarter, haven't we, Brendan Kilnett is on it. Yeah, but she was already famous, and all her fans are famous who were in it.
Brendan was able to ask, Jack Dean, how are you doing it? I'm saying that you're tied to something else then, because people put a fancy around the world coming, so if you, I went to see a film outside with a Kickstarter film about souls, and it wasn't because no one wanted John to make that film, it was that they liked souls, so you were tied to something that would attract strangers. Yeah, I think that's true that there's obviously much more point in doing it if you've got that, but I think there is a point in doing it, I thought what you were saying, Abby, was there's no point in doing it because it's a story and project, but I think there is a point in doing it, but you've got to market it, you've got to make sure you make a selling point and go with that, haven't you? I'll say about what would you choose me, there was a friend of mine made a film, and for £100 I could have been a producer, and I was too tired, I wanted to pay a bit, I wanted to have the producer credit, I wanted that, and I didn't, and now that thing, dozens out there, do any of our, let's go around, maybe, if anyone's got any advice for it, what to write, how to write, because one piece of advice you wish you'd been told maybe 10 or 15 years ago, is that would that be a thing that you could possibly pull out of thin air, with literally now getting so many stony looks and baffles, girls can start though.
I just turned up at the comedy conference last year, Kate Haldane, the agent said it, don't, I won't use the word to use, but don't be awful, genuinely, the number of writers who've had a really good career who were a bit pressy and demanding, be nice, be the kind of person you've got to spend some time in the room with or down the pub, it's just being a sociable person to get on with will get you way more work than being really good at writing. I'd say finish stuff, and then send it to people, finish stuff and send it to people, you know that is very, very wise, and you'd be surprised how many people, it took me a long time to stop going, but surely somebody will ask me, they want to see my script, they're going to come and ask you, and I'm like, why not be discovered in my front room? I'd say, don't be put off if you don't get somewhere straight away, and accept that there's going to be quite a lot of rejection, and that happens to everybody, not just you, because I think a lot of people get one rejection and are so broken hearted by it that they never do anything again. Brilliant, the last piece of advice I would say is consider joining the Writers Guild, not only can you be a full member, but you can also be a candidate member, I don't quite know what that is, but it's a way of being, it's like being student equity or something like that, it's a sort of entry level thing, so look onto the writer, look at the writer's I'll probably get you this council, loads of comedy courses.
This council, comedy courses and things like that, and so that would be a great way of making a start as well. Next time can we hear how Abbie's first social feminism is going? Yes, we'll definitely check in on that as well as, as well as, as well as Joel Bertrand in Hongria. Thank you very much for listening, Dave Cameron's got one last week.
The Writers Guild of Great Britain, just a couple of weeks. WGTV, the Writers Guild of Great Britain, just a couple of weeks. WGTV, the Writers Guild of Great Britain, just a couple of weeks. Thanks very much guys, and speak to you again soon.
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