Hello, welcome to episode 47 of SickConGeek's, I'm Dave Kerri. And I'm James Kerri. And here we have again, we're going to have the second half of James's amazing interview with the legendary Eric Chappell, brilliant Eric Chappell. And you actually went to his house, didn't you, James?
I actually went to his house. You know where was he? He lives near Grantham. I can't give out his postcode if that's alright.
But I got in contact with him after there was a documentary last year on UK Gold, I think. Maybe a free documentary about Rising Dampt and the Banana Box that played it's based on. And then I just looked him up online, found his website, and then I just sent him an email just to say, Hello, I'm a fan, I do a SickConGeek's podcast, would you mind being interviewed? And we too preferred a bit, but ultimately it was yes.
And I said, once I worked out that he must be in his 80s, I thought, well, I should probably go to his house then shouldn't I? And that's exactly what I did. It's perfectly reasonable. Yes, and so I was invited into his house, I didn't break in and hold him hostage.
And he gave us a interview, he was, what was rather interesting was he was rather puzzled that anyone would be interested in this level of detail on how to write sitcoms. But I did have to assure him that this isn't just a standard five live interview, it's two and a half minutes. So how'd you come up with the show and don't you think it's a bit racist? I'm not going to get your ideas from.
I might get your ideas from. So, I was going to say, if you haven't listened yet, the first half of which is mostly about rising down to how I got started. And it's a really fascinating interview. So do listen back to that episode as well.
You can listen to this one now and it's not like you're going to miss, it'll still make sense. It'll still make sense. Yeah, it doesn't change the ending. But before we get there, what is our latest news?
Our latest news is that we are, well, in fact, the Writers Guild of Great Britain are holding a very special event on Monday the 22nd of May at 7 p.m. The Museum of Comedy, which is in Bloomsbury in London. It's fantastic place. They've got all sorts of things.
They've got the original grandfather clock that was used in Step Zone Sun is there. And you'll never see all this memorabilia if you actually come to the show. You get in free to the museum. You come to see the show, which is basically Marx and Grant talking about the state of sitcom.
In fact, the show is called, the panel is called, Situation Critical, who can save the sitcoms. So it's going to be very interesting. In fact, James is going to be hosting it. We're hoping there may be other guests as well, no pressure James.
The Writers Guild have chosen you to know this. So it should be great. And more details, we'll put the details on our Facebook page. You can find out all about it on our Facebook page or go to the Museum of Comedy and go to their events page and you can book there as well.
Monday the 22nd of May at 7 p.m. Let's go without further ado to part two of James' Interviewing Eric Chappell. Right, that briefly. So your process in terms of writing, you know, written over 200 episodes of broadcast comedy.
Presumably you sort of, are you a planner or are you a do you write and rewrite and rewrite on your own? No, I think it's hard to say. I don't think you have a set plan that's a rigid thing. You think that will work up to this point.
And then something's got to happen. Someone's got to come and do something. You've got to develop the story in some way. You have to develop the story and the second development.
I said, I don't consciously accept pages. That's how it works out to the right. To talk about 28 pages because of the TV. And even now I'll be hard pressed to say, I'll have to take a script and go through you know to say.
Somebody rang me up the other day and I wanted to tell you about a situation coming. Only when I laughed. Because you know, you had a friend who had been in it. There was a line he wanted to refer to.
And I thought, yeah, it was the one where there was a prisoner came in. So I thought the prisoner comes in. He's in handcuffs to someone. We don't see that.
So it's a chat, the discovery of the prisoner. And everybody meeting him. That's the first seven pages. And then the misunderstanding and the guy wants to get out.
So that's the second seven pages where he's leaning on Peter Bolz to get him out. And all the other people and the ramifications of that. And Ricksby. I'm sorry.
I figure it's helping it. Because natural figures. And then the second half is the physical action of getting out and creating out the window and all this business. And then the payoff at the end when they're covering for him.
So, you know, the pace of it. That's the difficulty. And all over the very seventh place. So about that.
So about that. I think I represent then. At what point, maybe a month or two earlier had you had an idea of, oh, let's imagine that there's a prisoner patient. I think I've seen it once or twice.
But I think it was a railway. So I saw a guy handcuffed to another guy. I've never seen that before. I've never seen that before.
I've never seen movies. I've always seen a prisoner. And I thought, well, that would be interesting. And then somebody said, oh, the guy came for an operation.
He's from the prisoner. So it happens. And I thought, that's a good idea. And it's a good idea.
But sue it. Did you roughly plan out those story beats before you started typing act one scene one? I think you did put it off too long. I think you can sit planning it forever.
And I was studying. You'll study before you actually do it. You might fail. You've got to get into it.
And so I have a rough idea. But I wouldn't say I've got to do this. But it gets out of the game. And I'd say, I'd take my dad for a pie done Sunday mornings.
And I was used to worry it's a death because he could think, I don't know if he could do this work. You might never get survived. And I'd always be able to say, I've cracked it. That was my famous lie.
I was used to think I've cracked it. And that's when I knew that the plot would work all the way through. You just know. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
There's that tipping point. Isn't there a great way. You relax then. All you've got to do is be fun.
Yes, that's right. But then again, that's a bit where you have to kind of trust your instincts and trust also the actors that have been cast. Oh, yeah. Go back to the actors.
To what extent were you involved in casting all the way through? I think when you're a comedy writer, in my day, that's you're more important because you know what works. There are still no more works. And that's all short.
So they take your remarks about actors more on trust than if you were a straight drama. I think I'd tell you what was what in drama. But comedy, you think he's going to be able to do it? You believe him.
Yeah. So I can't think there was anyone that came into the show. I didn't recommend. Really?
They wouldn't say that. Okay. And they rarely hide people either. You just thought, oh, I don't know why they've...
I guess there's some day players or people with small parts that you didn't. Oh, yeah. I didn't do that. But generally speaking, I made suggestions.
And certainly the leads. I think I thought there wasn't anybody I didn't ask for. I didn't ask for them because he did the play. And when they told me they got there, I thought, wonderful.
You see, when you think I was a lot of the truth, the actors didn't want somebody to tell me, they're going to do this play in the West End. I couldn't believe it. I didn't quite believe it. But they said they got there at the roster.
So for example, with Hunter East, you were actually going to John Thor was quite easy. Did you have John Thor in mind as you were developing that show? That's the idea. I don't think I thought that John Thor was bad because he didn't do much comedy.
I did one of the two things. But generally speaking, it was really straight. Which is part of the charm of the show, isn't it? It was touring in something.
And I didn't think he'd do it. Because he was standing at the National Theatre, sort of former. And I'd been going into that area and I thought, I don't think he'll fancy this. He was a time when he hadn't got a lot of work on and he thought, yeah, this is good for me.
And we did four years. I mean, I know we only had seven shows a year, but I think it probably took three or four years to do. And we got a good lad with Reese Dinnestale. Yes, where did you get him from?
He was working with... I don't know if he was... I mean, obviously I didn't recommend him. I didn't know him.
But when I saw him, I thought, there weren't many good young actors. Not like Hollywood, where they got lots of young actors. He was a bit older than the party played, but he was good. And I can't think of it when I think about it.
He came, recommended, and saw him. He was the only one that was there for him to know that was good enough. Because he had a lot of pressure. Because he lived up nearly.
His family came to see him every Friday. And that made him worse, isn't it? Don't come for moral support. That's actually...
It makes it even worse. Because I used to be in Aga as well. Yes. Going back to ITV, it's interesting to me that all of your work was right, TV.
BBC, I'm just going to know that because you didn't do a single BBC show, but also you didn't have to do any radio either. Did that not appeal to you, Radio? It was a progression. You sold your stuff where you could.
There was more of a market for the radio in those days. I think I did about three or four plays. I can't think. John Tydeman was a producer then, being named there.
He did one or two of my plays. And there were all pilots, what followed afterwards. Not as good. But you say the BBC for some reason they didn't...
No, I don't know. Once you go to ITV, they don't like you anymore. I sent stuff to me, all my agent did. And they swears this was said.
The script that I had sent them was too funny for their purposes. Can you believe that line? He said to me, he said, you will not believe this. He said, because it's too funny for what the situation is.
I don't know what we were saying. But it was too funny. Now that doesn't sound sarcastic. That's what he said.
Anyway, I did a play with them. He was very badly directed and very badly done. And he was able to try them anyway. He was in a series.
It was about 73. And he was by a very good producer, but he did work. And I slightly ashamed of it. But I did do that for BBC.
That was very early on. I don't know that. But he never went back. I don't think I wanted me.
For a 20-year period, you were incredibly busy. In about 1991, when you were doing Haggard finishing home-to-roost singles, I'd show that I'm not going to go. He wasn't going to go to the movies. He doesn't get repeated.
But at the time, I don't because I watched everything when I was young. But it may have been because I was at a boarding school for a little while. So that may have taken me out of evenings there. And also Fiddler 3.
Which was a real remake of Squirrels. Was it a remake of Squirrels? In fact, some of the shows were exactly the same. Was that known at the time?
Or was that only you mean? I think we had to pay something for that. I mean, I knew. Those Squirrels were your show, so you had to pay you.
A.D.V. Right, produced Squirrels. And so when Yorkshire did it, as Fiddler 3. I think they had to be some.
It could be broke. I'm not quite sure. That's really interesting. I watched some Fiddler 3 last night.
And it really did feel early 90s. I know why it was because I wasn't using computers much. Because of the way they did. There was definitely a difference in tone.
When I watched some Squirrels that felt like a sitcom from the 1970s. But not just, but not comedic necessarily. But just in terms of the way work looked and the way people related to each other. Whole series of different things.
And I've often thought that you could document British social history over the last 10 years. You've got to go in the book history. Yeah, that's right. Whatever you like to call it.
From the 70s, well, I started 70s through to the turn 2000s. There's a history there. If you analyse sitcom. And since the sort of early 90s, at the end of a very, very busy period, was there a period where you just thought, Well, I said, you're doing too much sitcom.
You're doing too much of it all. And I said, one day they went one tip. And I was right. I finished 93, 94.
I did a series that nobody wanted. And I was surprised. I called it. Double vision.
And it never got made. And I wrote the two more and I submitted it. Funnily enough, Bernal Lawrence would have been doing all my stuff at York. She was then head of ITB.
Right. Commissioning. And he wanted it. That was a very awkward moment.
Well, that was a very awkward for him and for you in terms of former. I get very enough of his choice. He turned it down. Why do you think he turned it down?
He didn't like it. He didn't like it. He didn't want to do it. He didn't like it.
I was right. I was asking himself. Is he good enough? Looking back now, that's a while ago.
Maybe it wasn't the best or one thing I've done. I wrote it as a play and did it on stage and just once or twice. It's printed. I mean, it's with French's.
But then I've got 23 plays published. So I'm now accused of churning out plays. So my plays now, what I do, you were saying, how do you get them on? People publish them.
Amazon's loved them. And now again, the pros do them. I've got the play being done in Budapest coming up. Translate it, I've got plays running in Poland.
What? The mid Europeans love me. Really? It's the people here.
I mean, because you have been revivals at plays and all those sorts of things as well that you've done. In a way, do you feel though, that when you're at Saturn, the bar thinking I write a play, that hand on hand, you are a playwright and that you had a good 20-year run? My writing last two sections, 20-year sitcom, 20-year stage with one or two over that. And that's what I wanted to do.
So I'm a happy man. It's just like everything else. It's not easy these days. Plays these days are generally musicals or celebrity-based or something.
Sometimes it's like a karaoke. I mean, people are up in the audience singing. Yeah, yeah. I mean, writers like you and I don't want that.
Oh, good is it, too. And that's happening more and more. Turn it into a musical. Turn what into a musical.
I mean, I could begin to toy with you. I don't tell you a musical. Jukebox musicals are getting on songs and I think, why? We're getting back to the Victorian times when they used to have dances, jigs and comic performances.
I wonder if it is a bit of a feedback, because although there aren't lots of writers who've come from plays into situation comedy, although I note people at Esmerd and Lobbie, they wrote a couple of plays as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, lots of Sundays he wrote. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
One of them. Yeah, but it's, but I wonder if we struggle to find that mainstream studio sitcom because we have lost that rep theatre sort of angle. I think we've lost the gift for turning lines like the comedic writing. When I started, when I was writing the film, it was about ten people in the country could do it, or twelve.
Writers are you, he's good. He can do it. And they're as good. So you're working in a very distinguished company.
And, obviously, much in demand. The demand went, then the skills began to evaporate. And I wonder now whether people are trying to write that sort of, I mean, things are much crazed now, they're not that good. As I say, Jack D and Lee Mack, they're the people who could do it, and there aren't many.
And years ago, those have been top. They've been in the first three or four shows. Not now. Yeah, yeah.
No, it's. Or that other one, though. They've been one of the young kids. Our numbers.
That's well written. Yes. Yeah, that's, yeah. Andy Hamilton is a major thing I'll tell you about writing.
Are there any shows, though, that you do the back on, you just think, you know, everybody talks about writing down themselves this day and anyone I laugh in secret? Are there other shows out of all the ones that you did do, where you just think, people just didn't go for that show. Like, I thought they would. That's really surprising.
I mean, home to roost, which I loved, you know, I think was pretty damn good. Beautifully acted and everything else. Was in the top 20, but it was not as sensational and good as maybe they liked people to fall about a bit more. You know, maybe they did want comic performances like you get now with them.
No, no. I can't remember the notes of each other. There's one or two shows that are rather broad and vulgar. Yeah.
Mr. Brown, that's the other one. Yeah. Yeah.
It's also pointed out to me that, because all of you are working studio comedy. Oh, yeah. Which I, again, personally, prefer. And with my writing partner, Richard, who I've written a number of things with, he pointed out to me that it's interesting now that the mainstream sitcoms, for sort of, for the eight, thirty slocks, it feels that that's a family show and therefore it should sort of be about a family.
And the idea of having a workplace sitcom as a mainstream sitcom almost doesn't really exist now. They're all a certain computer. Well, yeah. I mean, the way that we have changed our work patterns is that the new statesman was a studio audience show.
That's a good show. That was a good show. And you had, you know, obviously, anyone I laugh with in the hospital knows all the things. And there's no expectation that if you did a show in the hospital, well, you'd obviously shoot that on location in a single camera show.
Well, whether by a sitcom, they ought to say, why are they still in the hospital? Yes. What's wrong with these? We took a segment of life.
I mean, we didn't care how long they were in. It was out time. It was stage time. And it didn't seem terribly ill.
No, it didn't seem always well enough to have a good opponent. You were running about. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that was a delightful show.
In fact, I rated sitcom, I've done a lot of writing for Radio 4, and one of the sitcoms I wrote was a show called Cut 33, which was set in Bleckley Park during World War II. Oh, yeah. And it was only after I'd sort of written the pilot episode or two that I realised that I'd essentially written only when I laugh because you had a, you had a Glover and you had a figures. Yeah.
And you had someone stuck in between them trying to keep the piece. You see, with that show, I was writing well then. It was the early days. I had to keep five balls in, four balls in the air, and dealing with, I mean, Richard Wilson felt it should be a play about the doctor.
Right. Chris Troy felt he should be a play about a young man guy, quite fighting himself with the boss. Yeah. And the other two guys could imagine.
So I was conflicted, confronted with all these egos and all these trying to write for everybody, and always being accused of not writing people. It was that way Richard Wilson is a much forgotten member of that show in terms of he wasn't the well-known actor that he had had. No, it wasn't there. Whereas with that show in particular, what was the starting point for you on that?
Had you been in the end of the hospital? No, I mean, I'd moments in hospital, but I had been only length of time. I think it was mainly, it's very claustrophobic. Yeah.
The fear of death is always lurking. And I don't really know the play as well, which was more true to life and death. So it was important that everything, the only ingredients were there and they couldn't go anywhere. And then that one needed an authority figure, which was Richard.
And it all worked. The only thing was people kept saying they should be out by now. They wanted to do it in America. The Taft wanted to do it.
And they said, well, it's a bit of a problem, isn't it, because in America they're out of Simms account because they've got to pay a fortune to get it. He said, no, what we do, we set it in the bedroom of the hospital. And that's what they plan to do and how they not got butched. But something, how they not disappeared, I would have had that done.
They were keen to do it. That would give also, it would make it a new version which would then have its own life of its own life. They would probably be back from Vietnam. One would be the sweat and one would be the pot.
And all this sort of thing would work. And I've got the plots for good. I mean, I drove to 28 of those shows and the plots worked well. The other amazing thing about the show is the theme dream.
Sorry, the theme dream. Yeah, I was slightly, I was slightly, what did it slightly different? Oh, yes. Because James sang it softly.
I wanted it, like a little breath. Because I'm going into the operation. And that didn't quite come across because he sang it. I don't know if that's the way that he was directed but I wanted it lower key.
Well, I think it felt like that anyway. Because just because everything on TV, especially then was, he was a bit like that. And then, you know, here comes a new funny sitcom on ITV, turn it on. I'm going to show you, please.
Well, it's meant to be at the different point. I think it might have been too much to have had it. I think it would have made you uncomfortable. I didn't mind that.
I think you might have been there for a worry that you weren't going to have a good time. I think for me in the end, I think that probably literally hit the right note. But it was a bit... So, I think mine was in hospital recently.
Oh yeah, the nurse came in singing that. Do you remember that we said that we were in hospital school? Well, that's interesting. Because where art, life imitates art, because you must probably do still get a bit of feedback from that.
As a whole generation of people. Well, I think it was used in Ireland Bennett play long before. I'm not sure. I retired a couple that went to the seaside and he died.
It sounded very much like Ireland Bennett but I didn't track it down. I didn't know. But no, it was such a lovely show. A lot of people hated it.
Really? Some critics never gave it a good review. Really? I think it strikes you see some people who like hospital things.
I think you all don't remember that there's always going to be some people who don't like what you're doing for a reason. A personal reason and a reaction to that. I wonder if we've done very well to get this far without talking about critics. Because I would imagine that I don't know whether TV criticism has changed over the course of your television work.
It seems now that the critics are just literally, especially from ancient sitcoms, they are literally lying in wait ready to have multiple, I've had, I've mentioned this podcast before, I've had AA Gill in the Sunday Times give two whole pages. How much he hated my show. One joy it means I didn't work for AA Gill. And he'd been writing review, I'd have dreaded them.
Yes. And I enjoy reading his devastating videos. Absolutely. That's a thing.
You sort of enjoy it when you're saying, well, I might be next. Yeah, quite. I wasn't there. No, exactly.
But even so, I would imagine it would be a very mixed bag in terms of TV criticism. I think the danger with criticism, TV criticism, think about it. Seattle critic is used to review in place. That's what he does.
That's what he knows about. Now these people are reviewing gardening programs, they're reviewing travel programs. Why? And they're reviewing plays.
Now, you can't know everything. You can't review everything. But they are qualified to review anything that's on the box. And that's a week.
Because ultimately if they're reviewing everything, it's the only real thing they can say whether they liked it or not. If I liked it, it was good. And if I didn't like it, it was bad. And that's not how it works.
You obviously suffered. I don't look for review. Yes. Now and again, when I do have a playlist, I always avoid reading it.
Because it affects you. No, exactly. You spend hours and days on their field. Yeah.
It's almost like it's almost like over-driven advertising giving birth to your own children. Yeah. And have a total strength to go. Oh, that's lovely.
They're either too close together. You know, you want to punch them on the nose. Right. But no one sits easily with the rulers.
I mean, Osborne said that they were like eunuchs in the harem. He said they're like eunuchs in the harem. They know it's not like they say it done every day but they can't do it themselves. That's interesting.
That's a great expression. I'm not going to come across that one. The other thing, the BBC in particular obviously famously have just revived resuscitated old shows and all that kind of stuff. Do you find that interesting point?
I was approached recently to redo rising depth. I didn't approach quite often. Yeah. But every two to three years I was like, yeah, can we bring it up to date and do this and do that?
They don't pay me much. But they want to do it. And I say, no, that was great. I've always been disappointed about revivals and bringing things back.
I can't think of any of them particularly successful. So I also know. And I don't need the money. So what the hell?
Yeah, absolutely. And so, yeah, I guess it's a real mix. You can sort of see it becomes a spectacle, doesn't it? If you resurrect an old show, you're watching it not submitting to it as a, I'd like to have a nice time, but is this going to be as good as?
Yeah. I mean, there's one or two of them. One of them is the worst idea is to bring about the old cast who's in 95. That's even worse than that.
There's two ways of doing it. Bring the old cast back or bring people in and getting new writers. Neither works. I think that they've done an inspector more suddenly.
That's another sick copy. Yeah, and never, they went back. They've done a prequel and then they've done sequels and stuff. But with them, are you being served?
They did a sort of set it in the 90s. Oh, that's right. But with a different cast and it was slightly... It says it's an opportunity.
I mean, if you've got to go back to those ideas, why not do a new one? I mean, there are people that are doing it now. I mean, also, if you're a theory, you want to start doing it going back and resurrecting. Yes, it does.
It really does. It really does. And also, these days, people like me aren't just competing with the new stuff that's on. We're competing with the repeats on UK old.
Yeah, it's quite a bit. Of really good shows. Yeah. Well, I've been paid a little bit for them doing IDV3.
It crops up every so often. They did rising dappo. The deal now is they pay for six showings over a period of two years. I did that.
I mean, the wall to wall going on forever. I thought six. And this is the writer's guild agreed to. I mean, but I think it's criminal.
We don't get paid that much. I mean, it's just wall to wall comedy. Yeah. And wow, we've got this far and we've been just talking about money.
Somebody said that company arises to me that aspiring writers talk about writing actual writers talk about money. I think it's a... I worked in the interest board. I never once asked for a penny.
I was paid on a grade and that was it. I accepted that. I went into the office and said boss, I'm not getting enough. Well, it's a starting writing.
It was not done. Absolutely. The first time I wanted a thousand for a script in the early seventies. I think we could bring other writers in there.
You know, and all this threats were made, you know, like that. I said, I sold off. Yeah. Quite right.
Just a thing, we should probably draw this for a time. It seems to me that we've talked a lot about your processing of shows and how you started. But it feels like you've slightly figured out how to do all this all on your own. I didn't speak to another writer when I was starting to write.
I didn't know any writers. The first time I met a writer, I wanted two writers, was... When they were ruining the squirrels. I was just saying Michael Cauldron was interested in doing the banana box.
And I did a run of it. A rehearsal at the hamstead on a Sunday night. I went there and I met one two actors and one two writers. I'd never done that before in my life.
I was never influenced by that. I never wrote two writers. Could you help me? Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, do it to me. I'm sure they do. Quite sensibly. I didn't know any.
I didn't even go to the theater that much. I would now again go, but not to go. I was not a theater goer. I just found a way of writing novels that no one wanted and I wrote plays and I wanted.
What was there any particular advice that you did end up picking up? Maybe not from a director or a producer. No, I know. No one gave me advice.
No one ever gave me advice. I advised myself and I realized one of two things. Like six week jokes. No one could go to one.
Right. Things like that. You don't know the hard way. Yeah.
Well, I mean, I didn't write the week jokes. But I realized if you wrote week jokes, I'm writing a comedy. Oh, the trip of the comes through the door and you do this. No.
Deal with the subject. Deal with the character and the comedy will come. If you've got it. I mean, I went, I did one or two courses where I spoke to people on, what was that?
I was an orphan foundation. Oh, yes. No. I did one or two courses there as a lecturer.
And I realized, okay, I see, they said, no, I'm not going to the pub. I'm writing. They've been to frivolous. I thought, no, you can't learn it that way.
You can't learn it by sitting down and writing seriously about taking notes from writers. It's got to be in you or it's got to be observational. Which is why it does help to have a little bit of experience in life and having done a proper job. Absolutely.
I mean, there was no good sitting in a little room and writing. I was lucky. I was an auditor. I went all around the Midlands meeting people every day and looking at them books and doing chats generally to finding out about their attitudes and things.
I met a lot of people, a lot of people. Before then, I'd been at the Clark in an office and never met anybody except for your writing. They were very rewarding. As you said, how did that bass reeks me?
I knew I loved him. I was with him for several years. That was important to me. He never knew that and died before I made it.
I wished he'd seen it. But he didn't. You never quite know. You might have taken it the wrong way.
You didn't mind the blood of him? He did not. He did not. He was a little bit later.
He loved him. He was a little bit later. He was a little bit later. I don't know why I was funny.
He was a little bit nervous. He wasn't, he was just give himself that. He wasn't funny because... Sorry if you said that.
I thought for him, he is a good one. Yes. He is a good one. I think that is what you say about not only meeting people but liking people.
Oh yeah. Because I think writing characters that you like and you understand their perspective. James, you have to be vulnerable. To write good comedy you have to be vulnerable.
If you don't feel pain, you can't write good comedy. Because, you know, there are brush people who write comedy. On their brush! There's no feeling.
There are walls. You've got to feel for the people that are injured. I mean they often say, If this is funny, keep it in. If it's funny, keep it in.
I can't quite take that view. But I know what they mean. And there's pain inflicted sometimes in your work. But you don't want to do.
But you've got to do for the story. But I know I wrote Natural Causes, which is a funny play about suicide. And a friend of mine said, I've come to see a player, because I've just lost a dear friend who's killed him. I said, don't go.
I said, don't go, because it's about suicide. Oh, God, I can't face that. I said, no. It's funny.
But you've got to be too close to the subject. You know, you can't be too close. See any ear of the thing. Is that what they're the George Carlin?
Oh, right. Oh, my goodness. He was a, you never worked on television with George Cole. Yeah, he did the play on television.
He did the play on television. That's right. Natural Causes on television. Of course I did.
I did. I'm not talking about the bounder with him. And George, and Peter Wells. Oh, was he in that?
Sorry, I hadn't. He was second lead. He took it very well. I said, I remember we met him.
And I said, I was with the director. And George came in to talk about the play. I said, in the ideal world, the part I think was Kevin as the name. I forgot the name.
Would have been George Cole in the ideal world. And if we could have got him, it'd have been perfect. You've got him. Just like that.
And he did it. He never mind it that Peter had the lead. He was the bounder. And I did that as a play as well.
Was that originally a play? Was that a? I can't remember. If it wasn't, it became one.
I said I was going to play first. Because that way you've got legs. You've got mileage. Because you've got a lot of material for one.
You're right for two hours. And you go then, look at the sitcom. You've got about four shows. In the comedy, comedian terms, at least.
And also, but in a play, there's a, it is akin to a movie in the sense that it does have a beginning in the middle and an end. Absolutely. But I guess that the sitcom is the middle. It's the middle 80 minutes.
It's the middle 100 minutes. Because it probably helps knowing where the character is coming from. And even in Rising Down, where you basically took off the ending. I'm going to have a quiet short.
You've got that start. So you've got that start. So I guess the pilot is the set up for the play. And then you don't need the ending.
It's a play that never ends. No. People don't want it to end. They're in legs, mileage.
And these are things. The first thing you ask, I'm sure you can come up with it. Will it run? Can you keep doing it?
You can run. We always said 28 shows. We always said if you can do 28 shows with it, because less of a multi-40 towers was 12. Well, I think that has quite a legacy for that.
Because I think a lot of people now think that because multi-towers and young ones only did 12, that that's the perfect number to do. It's not enough for him. I agree. I agree.
I'm one of my favourite shows in the world. It's not enough for him. I think they've got writers. I think they've got writers.
Yes. But I think when you're watching a movie, they're reinventing the wheel every time about, are they going to like these characters in this situation? But when you've got a situation that you know you like, it's just the most wonderful thing. Yeah, I think.
Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, the story lies will come if you've got a good character. A good character. They'll come.