Episode 567 - Jeff Garlin

All right, let's do this. How are you? What the fuckers? What the fuck boys?

What the fucking here is? What the fucksters? I am Mark Maron. This is WTF, my show, the podcast, WTF.

It's been fun lately. Been moving along. Some good interviews, some good conversations, some good talk. Last week, Paul Thomas Anderson, Richard Linklater.

Awesome. This Thursday, got Mike Judge, who I don't think talks a lot publicly. We're from the same place, Albuquerque, New Mexico. Had a great conversation with Mike.

Today, I got Jeff Garland on. Me and Jeff go way back, but I actually got a few words in. That doesn't always happen with Jeff. And in a minute, we got sort of a special guest.

Something's been eating at me, eating away at me a bit, is that last week, I vaguely addressed my feelings about the Bill Cosby situation by not even mentioning his name. And I'm starting to feel a little cowardly about it or something. I just don't. It's very strange the feelings you have around realizing or coming to realize that somebody you've looked up to or respected or thought so differently of is such a sociopathic monster.

It's a very hard thing to reckon with. I have no religion, and I can only imagine that on some level, it must be the same for Catholics wrestling with a local priest who has been rumored, but now is fairly deciding you've got to be a moron not to know that the rumors are true. How do you deal with that? And I think a lot of us use due process as a rationalization.

Absolutely. The predominance of the law is phenomenal. For the most part, it's supposed to be what makes our legal system so enviable and amazing. But at what point do we start using due process as a rationalization to not engage our common sense or our own logic or to overcome our own fear of speaking what we believe is true?

I mean, I'm that guy. I think we're all that guy. Hey, it's like innocent until proven guilty. But people in power are rarely proven guilty.

Certainly the type of power that Cosby has enjoyed his entire life as an entertainer, the money he's made for other people, it sort of makes him a bit untouchable. And there have been events in the past where he's been able to politically or financially get out of or crush articles or interviews with him. But those days are over. This is an old man, Cosby.

And it's hard as a comic to realize this stuff. And what is our responsibility around it? For me, I know a lot of guys are like, hey, man, if he did it, you know, it's horrible. Well, I think he did it.

And it's horrible. But what do we do now? Do we just let it go? Is that it?

You know? And I think a lot of people just refuse to want to admit it at all. But I mean, how much do you talk about it? I've not talked about it at all.

I'm not saying Bill Cosby's going to come onto the show. From what I heard a year or so ago, when everybody wanted to get him on the show, he wouldn't do it because there was the F word in the title of the show, you know, being a decent guy that he is. But something happened on stage last week that kind of, you know, kind of grossed me out. Apparently he was on stage in Canada and he made reference to the accusations against him, to the rape accusations by 30 some odd women.

You know, he averaged it out after a certain point. I mean, you know, he's a bad guy. It's true. I've decided and I'm nobody, but it's my personal opinion.

It's horrible. But he was on stage making light of it. Said to a woman in the audience who was going out to the bar to get a drink. He said, be careful, don't drink it around me.

So when he's using the platform of standup comedy to obfuscate, make light of and trivialize what he's playing off is, you know, empty accusations is, is heinous. And I knew that Judd Apatow was very public about it, his feelings about it. And obviously, you know, he's in a position where he can, you know, be as honest as he wants to be. No one's going to, he's not going to be punished.

There's nothing to be afraid of if you're Judd Apatow in this business. And look, I mean, I love, I love coffee as a comic and I don't know what to do with that. You know, it's all very mixed up. The emotions are mixed up.

How do I separate now? Am I going to be able to? I might be able to. Can I still say, we did some great comedy, but he's this horrible rapist monster.

Can I do that? Can I compartmentalize that? I don't know. I've not done those experiments, but clearly Judd is able and has been able to completely separate the influence of growing up with Bill Cosby as a comedic hero, respecting Bill Cosby as an entertainer and a, and a, a cultural activist.

He was, he's been able to separate all that, to put all that aside to assess the situation. But it had been eating me about, this is my show and my beat is the comedy community. That's where this started and that's where most of it remains. And I felt, you know, I felt bad that I was not talking about it because I didn't know how to talk about it.

And now I'm talking about it. And I want to talk to Judd about it because he's been very upfront about his feelings and what they mean and what this, what this Cosby situation means, the comedy to culture, to show business. And I just wanted to, you know, a lot of you have seen his tweets, but I wanted to get into it a little bit. So I called Judd Apatow a few days ago and we talked about Bill Cosby.

Mark, how are you? I'm fine, Judd. How are you? I'm doing well.

I'm in the final stages of ending the Amy Schumer movie train wreck. And what, what's that coming in under? Um, you know, we got it at about, uh, we're in a solid two hours. Yeah.

That might be a new record for me. So, all right, well, here's what's going on with me. You know, like I've been, uh, you know, I don't know if I'm shying away from addressing the Bill Cosby situation. I have to sort of really kind of question myself as to how do I, how do I talk about it?

What are my feelings about it? And I think ultimately what happens, you know, with me is you sort of lean on that, that, uh, well, you know, if it's true, then it's horrible. And then it gets to a point where we're at now where I realized it is true. There's no way that this many incidents can happen with these personal stories.

And so I know that it's horrible, but what, but what do we do now? And you talk about it on Twitter constantly. So what do you want to happen? One thing that I do know is I'm not comfortable with him running around the country doing standup, like nothing's happening.

And I guess on some level, I feel like I can't be a part of, uh, solving that many problems in the world. I do my best to get involved where I can be effective, but this is our neighborhood. And I do feel like there's someone running around who should be in a different type of building right now. There was a community named Vince Champ.

Yeah, I knew him. Remember he was arrested, uh, because they looked at his college touring schedule and in many of the cities that he was in on those days, people had been raped. He's in jail for life right now. Right.

But Bill Cosby, I think one of the other issues is that when somebody has as much power as Bill Cosby, and like, despite what, you know, Patton says, or what you may have known, I mean, I was not really aware of, of, of this, uh, of the reality of this. And apparently a lot of people were aware of it years and years ago. And until Hannibal said something, I wasn't really on my radar. And I think it's, it's pretty unbelievable for a lot of people.

And there doesn't seem to be any legal recourse. So the whole due process argument of, of kind of like, you know, innocent, but proven guilty does not really apply. He's a very powerful guy. So you wonder what justice looks like.

I understand what you're saying, but it seems like he's definitely been hobbled. His legacy has been destroyed. And he doesn't seem to be able to work much in this, in this country at this point. Would you like to see him in jail?

Oh, I absolutely would like to see him in jail. I mean, that's where, uh, you know, people who commit sexual assaults go, right? He should be in jail. I think that when celebrities commit heinous crimes, people don't want to let go of their love for their work and their lifelong relationship with them.

If we admit that Cosby did this, we're not allowed to enjoy everything that made us so happy. And I guess in some primal way, we don't want to let go of those memories and those feelings. And I think ultimately we have to decide that, uh, it's way more important, uh, that he is, uh, dealt with in the same manner anyone else is who's committed those types of crimes and he shouldn't be, uh, performing. Hey, he got two standing ovations last night and he has, he's booked through the, you know, through the spring.

Are people going to book him again? Maybe they will if we don't, uh, complain about it. And, and, and I guess on the, the most recent performances, he alluded to it and, and joked about it, you know, in a room full of people that were obviously adoring fans. And he got a standing ovation from what I read, you know, just from a massive amount of applause just for the joke he made, uh, you know, about, uh, some woman was getting up to get a drink and he said, where are you going?

She said, I'm going to get a drink. And he said, well, you better, you better be careful and not drink that around me. And it just got a huge amount of laughter. And I think that's what's sort of triggered my, uh, my, uh, I guess action or my, my desire to call you is that, you know, he's now using, you know, our, our form and his form to sort of trivialize this thing where he has not made a statement about it at all.

And now he's using jokes to trivialize it. Well, he's certainly not saying this on that date when they said I was at the playbook club, I was in Europe shooting the movie, but he, he doesn't have a response that's specific to any of the 33 people. And if you didn't do it, you'd probably be pretty pissed off. And it, and you wouldn't match up.

You know, so it is a Vince Champ situation in that way. He doesn't have an L by for any one of these people. And you only need one of these people to be telling the truth for him to deserve to be in prison. Well, I think people have trouble, uh, facing it.

What would it feel like to be standing with Bill Cosby? You take a drink of something, you take a pill that, uh, he told you something that it wasn't. And you slowly start passing out and you're looking at him and you're thinking, what in God's name is about to happen? It is bone chilling.

It's a horror movie. I don't think people really want to close their eyes and imagine what it's like as you're going unconscious to know that somebody is about to abuse you in that way. And then you won't be able to complain because he could say, what, we were partying. What, we were like drinking, doing pills.

Like it's a setup to make the person unable to complain. Right. And it's, it's so loaded anyways. And so many of these women were afraid of him.

And so many women in, you know, generally speaking, were victims of sexual crime, uh, or find themselves ashamed or unable to speak out. And, and, uh, and certainly with somebody as powerful as Bill Cosby, obviously a lot of these women just couldn't even think about him addressing it publicly. Well, I think a lot of people who want to get into acting and a lot of people he preyed upon were want to be actresses or actresses. Even if he did it, they think complaining about it probably ends my career.

People will think that, you know, I'm trouble. That's why he always went for the same type of person for the vast majority of the time. Because if you become branded that person, even now, he's people in their sixties and their seventies and most of them don't want any money. They're just trying to be honest.

Uh, they're humiliated because there's nothing fun about being seven years old and having to go on CNN and saying Bill Cosby rate you. Like, that's not fun. It's, it brands you in a way. It takes an enormous amount of courage to stand up and talk about it.

Uh, but I think that, uh, you know, people like to think, oh, they're all going to get rich. But believe me, most of these people are getting rich off of this. Might a few people get remunerated in some way? Sure.

Do they deserve it? Absolutely. That's why people sue people. If you, if you do something to someone and it messes with their life and it messes with their psychology and causes them great pain, he should pay those people.

But when I, when I, when we were, you know, engaging over, over text, that, you know, you feel that there is a, there's no response coming from, from Hollywood, you know, as our community. You know, I've talked to people, I've, I've said something, most of the people I've talked to, you know, fairly succinctly. Uh, I saw Rod Carmichael address it with a, with a very pointed joke. I saw Rob Schneider talk about it a bit, uh, in a more personal way, less pointed.

Uh, you know, I've certainly, I know that, uh, you know, uh, Chris Rock has said, you know, if he did it, uh, it's horrible with, there's still a qualifier there. I mean, what do you, what would you like Hollywood to say? And what do you think is disproportionate in terms of how Hollywood responded? Well, I think it's the path of least resistance.

Nobody wants to stand up for anything that can't help them in some way. So what are the chances that Bill Cosby pulled out a date book and shows that he was not in those locations for all 33 of those women? It's, it's zero. So even in a situation where Bill Cosby clearly did it, nobody wants to risk the idea that for the one in a billion chances, uh, that they're wrong, that they get in trouble.

But the truth is, if I was raped, I don't expect courts to need 33 witnesses to convict my rapist. You know, I'd be in jail because one person spoke up and said this happened. So we're so far past the normal, uh, bar for proof. And so everybody in Hollywood, for the most part, there's a few people that are standing up, like Rosie O'Donnell, there's some comedians that are standing up, but there aren't very important figures in our business who say, you know what, this is a racial issue.

We don't want people like this in our community. This is wrong. People who could actually be in prison. And I believe these women, there's 33 women, go on the computer, and there's videos of every one of these women in great detail explaining what happened.

It is bone chilling. The amount of detail that, uh, they remember. We're way beyond the point of, like, did this happen or did this not happen? It's just, you know, certain, uh, statutes of limitations are allowing him to avoid dealing with it.

Now, what do you think about when somebody like, uh, the showrunner from Blackish, Kenny Abarras, comes at you and says, you know, let it go? I spoke to him, uh, afterwards about that. You know, I can understand why someone would say, why does he just care about this? I don't know, I have two daughters.

I'm a comedian. I see him a little bit as our comedy dad. It's like finding out your comedy dad is a really evil guy. And you want to say, hey, does everybody care about this, that he's doing that?

And when the community is pretty silent, then I feel like, well, if no one's going to talk, I'm going to talk. If everybody was talking about it, I probably wouldn't have that much to say about it. But I don't want it to suddenly disappear. And then he just kind of goes back out on the road and just does his thing and has his hundreds of millions of dollars.

And all those women are shamed for coming out. They're all ignored, which is just re-injuring all those people. Yeah, I think, I think that's right. And I, and I, and I certainly appreciate what you're saying and what you're doing.

I just, there is a hopelessness to, to it in that he is still very powerful. He is not going to be taken to task. And I guess the only way to make him responsible, which he won't be, or at least answer to, uh, to the reality of the situation is, is diminished his ability to work. Well, you just don't want him having a blast.

That's how I look at it. I don't want him running around getting standing ovations. You know, at the very least, do it in your mansion and disappear for the rest of your life. Right.

You know, he shouldn't be rewarded and applauded, uh, for raping that many women. And that's a huge commitment to rape, by the way. We were talking about this starting in the mid-60s. That's a full commitment for, for four decades.

Well, yeah, obviously somehow, somehow in his mind, uh, you know, he had, uh, you know, this was the way he was going to go about it. He was going to be this guy that drugged women and then, uh, you know, then raped him and somehow in his sick mind, you know, he'd made that. Okay. That's, you know, that's what serial sociopaths do.

Did you see the video of him on Larry King's show in the nineties? And he's talking about Spanish lies. He's absolutely. absolutely giddy, laughing about the concept of doing that to women.

People need to look it up. It's really horrifying. He thinks it's hysterical. He can't even hide it.

Look at everything I've ever done in my career. I haven't brought up Spanish flies. Is that something anyone brings up? Drunking women to have sex with you?

Yeah, it's really a sick situation. I think it's the saddest, most bizarre, in a way, Shakespearean episode that's ever happened in show business. I mean, right now, when he's sitting home with his wife, Camille, what are they talking about? What's happening in that house?

What does his butler think? What does his assistant think? Are they all in some cult of Cosby where it's cool or are they terrified? I think that's it.

He's an old man, so everyone thinks, oh, that was a long time ago. But there's people just hanging out with him right now. I know. I think that does happen.

I mean, there is a certain sort of Stockholm Syndrome type of cultish psychology that happens around the powerful, the people that surround the powerful. There certainly is plenty of people that still are willing not to believe any of these accusations. What do you make of that? Well, the people who don't want to believe it, it's the same reason why people don't want to believe that Michael Jackson never did anything with kids.

They just love thriller and they don't want to give it up. Maybe that's how his butler and his wife are able to sit there and have dinner. I'm sure. If you went back in history to when I first heard about these accusations, it probably took me way too long for him to think that this happened.

But it's very troublesome mainly It's not the hardest thing in the world to say. Oh, by the way, there's 33 women saying this. I believe them and this is wrong. And people don't say it.

And look at that when Mel Gibson got in trouble. Mel Gibson for just making comments was tossed from the business for years. They burnt that guy in the stake for comments. And this is actual violent acts.

It was a very sort of lukewarm reaction. I think that you're right, though. I think that if you don't keep it in the public sphere, I understand your argument is that those people that refuse to believe it or see their lovable hero in that way will just eventually evolve into giving them a pass. And even people that if nothing is done about it, eventually it'll just fade from public memory.

Well, it also makes women who are assaulted not speak up. So the reason to say Bill Coggy is a terrible man and I believe these women is that women aren't hiding in their homes in shame when people commit violent crimes against them. And that's why everybody has to say, I just want to go on record, I believe these women. But you're not seeing important people say that.

It is dead silent out there. And I find it very, very troubling. It reminds me of the North Korea issue with the interview. Our whole town was ready to just shut down on the freedom of speech issue.

Nobody spoke up and said, we have freedom of speech regardless of the context. You're not allowed to tell us that we can't have freedom of speech anymore. It's much different overseas. You know, the incredible passion to fight for that freedom.

But here, everyone back down. Yeah, it just seems that people within the business world, you know, will always, their default is to protect business or to try to keep business in the status quo without really fighting the good fight. They'd rather just take the hit financially and not cause trouble and then move on. For the most part, that's the case.

I think that money wins the day, for the most part. You know, at the Bill Cosby show, everybody knows that this guy is up to no good. They may not know he's raping people, but he's certainly doing terrible things with women and casting couches and cheating on his wife. Everyone at that show knows what's happening.

It's not a secret. I've worked on television shows. If I had sex with one of the extras of girls, you would know about it three hours later. Well, you probably, yeah, that's true, Jim.

It's not that anyone in this industry was unaware that he was a wretch. Well, that's what I'm saying. Everybody knew that he was a terrible guy for decades and decades. It was not a secret in our industry.

But when it goes into this kind of criminal activity, and all those people are being silent are saying, that's not the Bill Cosby I knew. Well, I'm sure the Bill Cosby you knew was also awful in a different way. He wasn't a great guy. Everybody knows.

I had a relative working on a TV show, and Bill Cosby was the guest star. And before he arrived, everyone was like, she needs to stay away from Cosby, make sure he doesn't see her. Really? His reputation preceded him for decades and decades.

But people aren't even coming out talking about just, you know, those types of stories of just, you know, a guy on the hunt for a very long time. And I think part of it is the racial aspect of it. Because, yes, he did things that were very important in the civil rights struggle. And he did great things.

But he also did some things that were as evil as you can do on Earth. And there's a lot of great people who fight for civil rights. And we don't need him. We don't need his legacy.

There are a lot of other people who we can look up to. And we can say, you know, he did great things, and he also did evil things. But the fact that he did great things doesn't mean you ignore this type of violence. And I don't look at it as like, this is about, you know, a black person or a white person.

You know, to me, Bill Cosby's a comedian. Right. And I just look at it as someone in my family did something terrible. And I think we all should be clear and say, this is awful.

We don't accept this in our comedy community. Agreed. And I appreciate you talking to me, man. You know, I love this subject because when I talk about it, I completely lose my sense of humor.

And I remember during the Iraq War, the run-up to the Iraq War, Jimmy Garofalo would be on TV all the time. And I thought, oh, I wish you could do this with a sense of humor. Because she was right about everything. And she predicted everything bad that would happen in the Middle East, but she didn't find a way to make it funny.

And so people resisted her thoughts. And I know I'm doing the exact same thing. And I completely relate. Because when something is that awful, that painful, it's very hard to hold on to your sense of humor.

So on this day, I commend John Stewart because he's genius all the time, even if he doesn't like you for some reason. There's a reason. But thanks for talking to me, man. I'm glad you're doing well.

All right. Thanks, Mark. It's Jeff Garland's turn. Jeff Garland and I go back years and years.

We didn't come up together, but I've known him. He's been on my periphery for a while. I think I first met him in San Francisco. We'll talk about that.

But he's also appeared. He was in the first season of Marin on IFC. I've done his show. He has done a live version of this show.

But I was happy he was able to sit down and talk because my concern with Jeff is always, am I going to talk? Is there going to be talking time available for me, Mark Marin, on my own show? And Jeff and I share some things, different styles of it. He's got food issues.

I've got food issues. He's got them. He wrote about them. But I think we got down to something here.

It's not easy to get Jeff to sort of engage and listen. And we did it. We did it. Before we go to Jeff, I do want to say that we have some new music here between segments this week and over the next few episodes.

It was made by Dean Copley, a big fan of the show from Kalamazoo. You can check him out. He's DJ Copley on Facebook and WebPuppy45 on Twitter. So let's go now to my conversation with Jeff Garland.

You want to wear headphones? I want to. Do you want to wear them? Yeah, I wear mine.

Yeah, I wear mine too. That way you can modulate your loud voice. Yes, I can modulate my loud voice. Look, Jeff, you want to play comfortable?

You're going to be comfortable? What? What the fuck are you talking about? Let's just start with the elephant in the room.

Which is what? Why were you feeling slighted? All right, let's take a few steps back. All right, let's take a few steps back.

Not to the beginning of our friendship, not to the beginning of our careers, none of that. All right. You want to get this out, right? No, I don't give a shit.

I don't like your tongue. I know you don't. I so confuse you because I call you on your shit, yet I love you. You know what I'm saying?

I have nothing but positivity and love for you. That fucks you up. That confuses you. What's happening right now?

Right now, I'm calling you on your show. Let me finish. All right, so. Okay.

So, the basic premise is that, you know, I wanted to do your show. I was the greasy, or the squeaky wheel. For a change, I was the one complaining about shit. Right.

That's not like me. It threw me. I bet you it did. Yeah, but I'm here.

I know, because I, yeah, it worked. It worked. It did. Let me just explain something to you.

In my mind, we've done the live one, I've done yours, and I just really had forgotten. First off, the live one was fun, and I had fun with it. I don't know how much fun you had with me having fun. But the point being is, this is totally different than the live one.

I know, but I would have gotten to you. That was my point. You would have gotten to me? What does that mean?

Wait, I'm not, I just, I've forgotten to. By the way, before, just so the listeners know, all I did was ask you a few times why I'm not on the show. Well, it was a little more loaded than that. Well, however you want to phrase it, but the point being is, it's not like we weren't speaking.

No, no, we were fine. And then at one in the morning, I get an email that says, I get it. You don't want me on the show. Well, yes, I know.

And by the way, that was, that was, understood. No problem. And then you continued to have that conversation, even after I shined in. No, no, no.

I understand. You don't want me on your show. That was clear to me. It was so clear to me.

That I decided. Yeah. No. And you would have eventually gotten to me.

What does that even mean? The show's not going anywhere. You reminded me. It could have just been like, hey, am I going to do the show soon?

But no, it was like laced with guilt. No, no, no, no. First it wasn't. Then it became, not guilt.

I don't work with guilt. And by the way, me saying I get it was me saying I get it. You're wrong, I think. I was wrong.

By the way, are you curious about me? Do you think you want to ask me if I'm not on the show? No, no, no. I knew that there would never be a problem of...

I'm going to give you every honest answer in the world. Okay. I didn't expect nothing else. No, but the weird thing is I can't even remember the first time we met.

I think it was in San Francisco. You were doing some version of someone I want to eat something with. Was that when I was at the improv when I was there? Right, right.

I feel like that's the first time we met. Were you playing Hobbs or something? No, you lived in San Francisco then. You lived in San Francisco then?

What year was it, like 92? 90... It was mid... 93?

Yeah, 90s. Early 90s, yeah. And I feel like that was the first time I met you and I really had no idea who you were until that time. Wait, wait, wait, wait, let's take a step back.

We met in New York before that. You think? In the 80s, yes. I was living there when you were doing the comedy channel.

Short Attention Band Theater? Short Attention Band Theater. Right, okay, so that goes right back. So it would be Caroline's, the comic strip, the cellar.

But you weren't there that long though, were you? I was there for... Because I used to do Boston and stuff. I don't remember...

The Boston Comedy Club. I used to play Boston Comedy Club all the time. But I remember you playing Boston Comedy Club. We just didn't really talk that much.

I think we weren't even acquaintances. We were like, hey, how you doing? I don't think we're anything more than that. And then, I think you're right, San Francisco.

And then over the years, we just became closer through sheer being around. And also, you know, it's not like a lot of guys our age. And I don't want to say we're Baron Von Old. But the point being is, let's say the comedy store where you and I work out.

And that really is now. But that really is like our gym. That's like going to live work. That's exactly what it is.

Not a lot of guys our age. A lot of people are a lot younger than us there. Yeah, no, that's true. That's true, except for Argus.

That's a whole other thing. But it's like we're in this... You know, even who there even works out in their 40s. Bill Burr on occasion.

Sarah. You know what I mean? It's like somebody like the last decade. Yeah, we want to stay fresh.

Keep that going. We do it. But there's not a lot of our peers that do that. Yeah, no, a lot of them are working on the road more, I think.

A lot of them are working on the road or quit. That was interesting that... It didn't stick in my craw, but I knew that you were being... I knew that you were hired by Jon Stewart.

Maybe I'm wrong. To help him put together his special. Yes, that's completely true. You were a dramaturge in a way.

You were helping, you know, like in my mind at some point... Did you do it with Leary as well? I was a stage director for their shows. And I also edited with the writing.

But you became a guy that did that. Was that a service you provided? Were you like, or was it just those two guys? It could have been a direction that I would just go down, but it was those two guys.

I mean, yes, people have asked me and I've given notes before, but they were the only two guys that I actually did that with. And then my question is... And I got credit. Right, right, right.

But that's an interesting place, because you're a guy that comes from a bit of a theater background, at least an improv background. Right. And sometimes it's good to have a second set of eyes. If I was working on a set, I would love it to have you in the audience and tell me, here's what you thought of the set.

Here's what I might want to think about, not think about. You want somebody you can trust? Did you do that? I mean, you don't seem to...

I've done it for... At this point in my life, you would have to say to me, can you come watch me and tell me. And I would gladly do that. I've never given you advice once before.

You did? Yeah. When I think I told you to open with a banana again. I'm sorry for screwing up your sound.

Yeah, that's all right. But you know where that came from? That came from... But it was terrible.

Well, it worked once. Well, here's the premise of it. The premise of it was, I was at breakfast with some friends, and there was a banana on the table. And I just picked it up and said, hello, what do you mean the president's dead?

You know, something stupid. Yeah. And then I said, I'm going to do this on stage. I'm going to bring a banana up.

I'm going to take the most... And the truth was, it actually worked for a while until I got bored with it. You saw it when I was bored with it, and you said, yeah, open with that. You sure do that.

Which killed me. And I dropped it. But to me, it was like so stupid during my set to answer a banana. Yeah.

You have a pretty absurd streak in improvisational nature, but let me ask you this before. I'm going to set up a few things. We'll go back. The relationship with Larry on Curb, is it my misconception that...

Did it start as a similar relationship as you and John and you and Dennis? Very, very much so. I was like, Jeff's very good at helping with the putting together of a special. Well, actually, HBO had approached Larry and said, we want to do something with you.

A special kind of thing? No, no, no. They wanted to do a series with him. Okay.

And they said, let's start by doing some sort of special or something. Right, right. No, no, actually, they never said special with him. They said, we want to do a series with you.

Chris Albrecht made it known to Larry. Boom, okay. Larry and I was writing with Alan Zweibel, this show that, ironically, it was a companion piece for Everybody Loves Raymond. Instead of choosing mine, they chose King of Queens.

Really? Yeah. Huh. We never even got to, it was just, which is good because it led to Curb.

I'm sort of bouncing around for work. Johnny Red Wilson did one too that had a man cave, Jackie Gleason-y kind of feel. Oh, he did? It didn't go either.

Mine was different. It was not like King of Queens. It just wanted a companion show and it was the same year that they were developing King of Queens. So Larry's office is right next to Alan Zweibel.

When I say office, it's like a little suite of offices with Billy Crisbell. Where's this? At Castle Rock. Yeah.

And I would go into Larry's office every day and talk to him. I knew him from being a comic, you know. And one day we went to lunch and I said, if you ever want to do a comedy special, I have the perfect idea. You know, it would be the behind the scenes of the making of a comedy special.

Right. And you'd never have to shoot the special. You could back out. Right.

And then that would be the special. And it came from my experiences with Jon Stewart and Dennis Leary doing their thing. Right. And he said, I love it.

And then we went to Chris Albeck and told him the idea. And he said, his exact words were, how can I not do this? How often do you ever hear those? And so we went and did that.

And he said to me, the first day of filming, wouldn't this be great as a series? Yeah. And in my... head i thought yeah right yeah yeah yeah would be of course it'd be great because it was if larry and i had worked together for 40 years right it was just natural from the very what was natural from the audition process when we were auditioning people um you know we felt like wow this is really weird that we have this connection and then he said that to me and then we did it and lo and behold hbo said we'd like to do this as a series and that's how it started that's how it started it's interesting so i wasn't so off no you weren't off because i was thinking when you said to me was there anybody else besides that's where i think there was somebody else and somebody else was larry right yeah that's what the other person so now like i here's the here's why i think we didn't know each other when we were younger really was that like i didn't see you as a like a comic in my little world like i was hanging around with like a telling louis and jeff ross hi barry but you were when you were doing that yeah i was hanging out with john stewart uh dennis leary like a different group a little older the only person of your group that i was actually friends with was louis yeah i've been friends with louis forever right and um as a matter of fact we just talked about you the other day yeah how smart you are um but um when i was i only bill grunfest i'll say his name i don't give a shit man never would put he was scared to put me up he wouldn't put me up either what was his reasoning at the comedy star bill grunfest was the original booker now his reason was just like the same reason for you taking risks doing things differently yeah he liked when you know but you know what he did was strange he gave me thursday nights to mc yeah so i would mc thursday night to the towel would come in people come in late at night and i put them on when they weren't normally getting spots down there right so but when did you start where did you grow up i grew up in chicago and south florida what's that was chicago what part of chicago jewish park there were jews amongst me at all but not highland park not highland park no i grew up in a suburb that had a significant amount of jewish people in it they'll call morton grove but what was your thing like when you were a kid were you a jock no i was well i was one of these weird sort of i played every sport and i was the class clown but you were you were on the teams i was on the teams and i was actually you're a big boy yeah no i was a good athlete yeah i could feel that um yeah i played football i played baseball but everything you played football in high school yes what position i was a guard and a tackle and a defensive tackle big guy big guy i was about the same size i am now i was like 6 1 2 30 or so baseball baseball you played baseball power hitting first baseman first baseman yeah i was actually quick a better fielder than i was a hitter yeah yeah but i was a good hitter no track what do you mean no track you didn't run track i did shot put in discus that makes sense i did all of it and by the way i was the fastest lineman like i ran faster than some of our running backs but here's the problem yeah the problem was i had a heart ailment no it was correct it was called wolf parkinson white syndrome it's the thing where you get like an extra pathway in your heart you get like tachycardia so i had to quit playing all sports how'd they fix it uh they it was i was the 72nd person ever to have this done now millions have had it done since then michael cera had the same thing oh really and before he had fixed and before me i was number 72 number like 14 was mitch herwix who created the rest of development i never knew that there were actual credits for a medal i was so early when they fixed me it said on the machine not for human use oh really it was like a dog thing the names of the people previous um but i didn't know them but they burned the extra pathway with high frequency waves that stops the tachycardia so anyone has any sort of tachycardia this is how they fix it now like when i was having my procedure done which i had to go to oklahoma city to have it done that's where they do all the big hard stuff well they did then the inventor and all the oklahoma city of this particular this thing and oklahoma state university one of the oklahoma university did you enjoy oklahoma oklahoma's fine ok yeah it's ok yeah um so i had it fixed and but what it does is at a young age you have a vulnerability that your peers don't have yeah like i thought i was going to die a million times just because like your heart would race out of nowhere and then ultimately i didn't get it fixed until i was in my late 20s i was in second city and i had tachycardia on stage thought i was going to die told them the cover for me went in the back stairwell i thought i was dead and then i went and had it fixed surprised me you didn't use it use it up there stay on stage stay on stage by the way i have stayed on stage with tachycardia i remember doing stand-up early on i had originally before they knew what i had um inderal which is like a slows your heart down yeah you know because the anxiety when i went on stage i had great anxiety when i first started yeah now it's you know now it's the opposite it seems it seems i am by the way i would go on record as saying that i might be the most relaxed comedian on stage in the business to a fault i might add to a fault i will not argue with you to a fault i could nap on stage if i had to i'm surprised you haven't tried that yeah because people say you know because i people who don't know me who are still listening um i improvise a lot on stage i i sometimes have material but i improvise a lot on stage and it should make me a little more tense and excited before i go up instead it's very relaxing i imagine and i'm just thinking this now looking you right in the eye that i would be maybe tense if i had a set set from point a to point e yeah you know i you know i think i've sort of gently nudged you towards writing a joke you have no no you're in all sincerity you've been supportive over you know maybe you want to get off stage i'm like hey maybe write something more than that but you know yes you're right yes you have but okay so you're you're you're jock but you're a funny jock you're in high school you're a big guy i was friends with the nerds and the yeah i did that you go both places smart enough to do that yeah you weren't a bully no god no a little loud but not a bully a little loud but not a bully there you go that can be misunderstood i'm a big bowl of gregarious yeah that's right just a charismatic large machine of jew that's right big bowl of jew loud too loud yeah but like what kind of do you have siblings i have a younger brother what's he up to did he ever get to talk uh he has his share of resentment i'm not kidding towards you towards me most definitely we love each other we're we're close yeah um but uh he has a share of resentment of being in my shadow what does he do he um uh is the director of a temple really yes outside of chicago in northbrook i believe it is my god so he has resentment and he's a spiritual man i'm assuming he uh i was trying to get me to go to israel and all sorts of stuff like that that's not gonna happen what's his resentment it's based in growing up in my shadow and you know his name when he was little was little garland all right i mean that alone right and you can't process that it's still there well no there's other things you know what i mean it's yeah it's you know by the way every where he goes here's voice and i go you sound just like that guy you know it's it's okay that people are familiar and not only that but running in the jewish community yeah um the goldbergs and curb your enthusiasm are two very big jewish shows yeah so so now he's got to deal with that and the irony you're a bonafide jew star yeah but the irony is i'm not very well i'm proud to be jewish and all that but i'm not very religious i don't like organized religion no i understand he works in organized religion right but it's jews yes it's jews but it's still to me it's all organized religion yeah okay no of course it is i understand that it is yeah yeah but i do my transcendental transcendental meditation twice a day i'm a i'm a person who thinks that there is a god probably yeah but i mean to me you don't believe in god right or you do i just i just stay out of it by the way yeah people will agree with you yeah just stay out of it yeah if there is a he or she or whatever god being it is hi how are you i hope i'm doing the right thing you know i mean you know i try to behave as best i can and i uh you know it's like i don't need a god to judge me i'm on top of that i'm so with you you know we're almost we're almost two sides of the same coin yeah you would be the louder side all right enough with the loud okay enough with the loud your laugh is pretty you know no because i i have my share of self-loathing you do most definitely and codependency and all sorts of crap really but the thing is i don't take others down i've taken a few down yes you have what are you talking about oh shut up i will wrestle you you've taken you you've let it be known here's the thing okay if i'm insecure about a situation or i'm i'm um just not comfortable with something i you if you don't know me intimately you won't know about yeah if you don't know me intimately that's who will know about that's who will know about it where and also when i'm on stage i'm more than happy to be vulnerable and expose myself but when i'm on stage you don't you know unless you're close to me you don't have a chance in hell of knowing me well yeah i can feel that like i don't feel like i know you completely well but you could right you're in my i mean i don't make like i've got a circle but you are in my circle of intimates and friends and i feel very comfortable talking to you about anything how do i get to know you just call up oh stop it now don't make me wrestle you what are you doing how do i get to know you no no i'm serious like because i'm not clear like i know a lot of people but i don't have that many friends i don't hang out with many people well just call me and say you want to have coffee yeah why not okay all right but here's the thing as much as you say oh yeah okay do you know how many times you've said that to me before no i'll go at least twice you've said you've said to me on the flip side hey why don't we ever have coffee and you said that to me too and sometimes it just doesn't happen i mean it's not it's not personal yes it's not personal but i'm saying i would have coffee with you all right okay can we keep this home when we're having it by the way the odds are likely because we have sort of a realistic uh jack benny fred allen type relationship you know i mean it's like and they were close friends you know it's like is that stage yeah but you know what we have done when you did my show yeah it was very apparent here's the thing here's my tagline in our comedy team reel it in jeff reel it in but the fact is we do have a very honest relationship i think we do and i'm very comfortable with you at all times i don't want to say what it is unless you want but recently i told you that something was beneath you that you shouldn't do that yeah you know and so yeah so i'm saying uh and i feel comfortable saying that to you and i feel comfortable saying what it is like i don't need to throw people under the bus out of my own petty resentment yes exactly yes because it doesn't make me look good it does not like i should not say jerry seinfeld doesn't know who i am right and be bitchy yes exactly you should it's way beneath you he doesn't i don't think he doesn't all right stop it i'm sure he does but he's not gonna he's not actively thinking that mark maron he's never no passive yeah it brought up no but you do you put the thing is you do bring it up oh a few people yeah a few people was it rowing stone the new yorker where did i read it all right that's yeah that's my point no no don't do that yeah don't do it it's beneath you okay because you're you're you're to me i must say a man of letters but you're an acerbic brilliant guy yeah yeah and and um why be petty why be petty and also i watch you i so enjoy your comedy yeah you make you make me laugh yeah and laugh hard really hard you know so i just it's beneath you man okay by the way by the way would i want to do your podcast if it wasn't something that was excellent and a good i don't like wasting my time and this is not a waste of my time i dig this this is awesome so your brother's a jewish director of a temple yes you guys hang out sometimes yes yes your parents still alive my dad i remember i said on your show i improvised but it was true because he just died so we were talking about something with well yeah i said my dad's dead but you used in the show um and that she had just died and my mom uh is um still alive but has brain cancer oh she's had it but by the way she was only supposed to you know like generally a year for this uh type of brain cancer this terminal thing she's been going three years she's still cooking she's still driving she's she's going and she's like all there all there that's amazing yeah so when you grew up what was your father's task what was his work oh my dad uh first he used to work in the plumbing supply business my family my family owned a plumbing supply business in chicago your grandfather my grandfather did did you know him yes i knew both my grandfathers but it was my dad's father who had the plumbing supply and i was very close with him he died at 99 it's like a hardware storage no no no plumbing supply is an actual like the parts it was like a pipe factory they made him oh really yeah what was your grandfather like a character yeah he was a character my grandfather was eternally positive like he ignored anything that was negative you're kind of like that no i'm not you try to try spot by by the way externally very positive very support now i i'm weird as a comic because i comics that i like boy i cheer on yeah and i root for you know um no he was just like uh if it's negative it's no good and to me negative things can affect me and make me down and depress me but i won't take others down with me yeah you won't take the lifeguard down with you no i will not i'll go on my own and he'll swim back i try to get the back that's right but he's an assistant he's an assistant around me yeah um yeah so he and my grandmother on the other hand who i was also very close with was eternally negative his wife yeah she hated everybody and everything and then one of the only things in the world she loved was me and also your husband yeah she did yes she did but nonetheless she was i can't tell you how negative yeah i mean unbelievable like what like where'd it come from oh i don't know where it came from just was it just i like her she'd be at functions with other relatives standing in the corner talking about the relatives that were 10 feet away and they could all hear her and your mother she was the least popular of everyone in the thing i can understand why yeah but i loved it she's great that personality had a point of view and my mother's parents were uh very nice my grandfather was funny and my grandmother uh was a very sweet sweet lady you know they were just you grew up like you grew up suburban chicago suburban chicago jews yeah suburban chicago jews so you had you know the food the cookies all the stuff familiar to me it's all it's all yes it was it was unequitically classic we'll go to south florida for vacation so this tv show the goldbergs is no stretch not by any stretch you know there's no stretch there whatsoever it's like oh i've lived here and by the way on the show i take off my parents here they say do you have a problem with that i go that's what i do when i go home now my dad did it too the difference is my dad wore tighty whiteys i wear boxer briefs and now i hope on the show and tighty whiteys under the boxer briefs no no but by the way they're really uncomfortable the tighty whiteys that i have to wear because it's like too late i can't see any movement on the show right that's what i mean so you wear them under the boxers no no i just wear the tighty whiteys but they're layered oh but i don't wear them under the pants i wear them in the scene when i come in no when you're doing no pant scenes when i do no pant scenes i wear these special things like a foam padding sure it's like a whole rigmarole so i don't giggle so i don't jiggle so there's no wiener action yeah yeah they don't want they don't see any movement none whatever's in there is stationary there's an older woman who does you know comes in to the check and she'll say sometimes i see shadows now the only way you can see a shadow is if someone put a flashlight behind my balls right and i was wearing something sheer yeah it's in her imagination she's seeing my my shadows trauma induced probably i don't know what her story ask her about where the shadows started where the shadows started where it started wherever the shadows proceed yeah all right so what what compelled you towards comedy when did that happen um always the funniest from nursery school on no exaggeration i was a class clown and you need a lot of attention you do right did did um i feel so much more secure when i than when i did when i was younger when i got how recent like in the last decade yeah very much so because things don't work out yeah i strive to be spiritual i strive to be uh calm but yeah but don't tm has helped me with that but don't you think just finding a like real success like and all of a sudden you're having no no no because real success to me makes you you can go one of two ways you can go down the path of finding some enlightenment and growing as a person or you can become more of the bad side ego can ruin and rule i get that but what i'm saying is that like for years look i mean we'll get we'll get back to the history in a minute for years you were sort of pounding your head against the wall you weren't a straight stand-up in the way that you didn't want to do sets right you know you sort of avoided something whether it was you know by by design or by insecurity i don't know i don't know either so so like you know you saw a lot of us who are your contemporaries doing specials doing this doing that yes and then you know your first real success comes from you know helping another comic yes create something i've seen some of the one person i saw the one one person show 93 or whatever that i think became the first movie right i want someone to eat cheese with right which made no sense to me the title it was based on suzanna melvoin yeah um who she you know she and i were having lunch in new york and she said to me we were talking about what we wanted to relate she said i want someone to eat cheese with and i said that's what i want it's so simple and so i just hung on to the title for a one-man show right and then right when i did the movie yeah i don't like i don't love cheese so i don't either but that's i don't like talking about not liking you think every guy likes fudge because i have the next question i don't like fudge doesn't really happen in the real world it's something you go to a place there's fudge places all over the midwest where i'm from lots of fudge yeah yeah it was a thing people had fudge in the house right down three a few doors down from zany's a half a block from second city the fudge pot but my point is is that my picture hangs one of the few places on earth where my picture hangs it's me at like 26 assigned to the fudge place i love the idea that the only actually to be honest the only place my picture hangs is the fudge pot okay i since then any dry cleaner or whatever that's asked me no no just one picture one picture yep but i guess my point is is that it seems to me that you may not have been sure how you were going to make your break right but you know traditional stand-up was not really your bag well it was my bag and my passion i just wasn't the traditional stand-up right that's a better way to say because i never stopped working never stopped doing sets but they were sets by my definition but when you were offered an opportunity to do a structured set did you say i can't no i did letterman um i did an hbo half hour right so i did right uh you didn't feel that it really showcased you no it did and like the letterman thing i had like i could not have a better set on letterman yeah i really destroyed um my half hour pretty good yeah um but the point being is i was much better as a guy who improvised really focusing on six minutes than i was it also turns out you're better at being in the present with somebody else always yeah and that and that really became you know what you know catapulted you right both you know as a person who works behind the scenes and as a person on camera right yeah so i guess my point is that i have to imagine that once you found your groove as a performer and found some you know some place to really have fun and work and do what you're great at you must have felt better about yourself one had nothing to do with the other come on no one of the other i thought to me none of your self-esteem hinged on i mean actually so yeah yes when i was younger what propelled me into stand-up was being liked and meeting girls the fact that my tool was being funny that's what i was really great at yeah that's what i use to meet girls and to get be accepted yeah but at a certain point what is that you can't i can't be defined by so the point is that's how i became so fearless i go on stage doesn't matter what happens my personal self-worth in no way hinges i mean i can do letterman tonight i feel bad if i let him and made it but the point being is i really it's they're two separate things well that's interesting because i find that's what baffling is sometimes and this is not a dig but sometimes when you get off stage and i know when you do well i know when you don't do well but you don't act differently either way and i don't at all and i'll start poking around like what's going on did that you don't you don't register any feeling of like you know god that's fucking terrible it didn't even happen and then i'm like that there's something wrong with that guy maybe but i drive home and i you know you drive home and cry no but i say but i would drive home and think about maybe my conversation here's the odds the odds are i'm going to drive home and think about what we talked about and i've already forgotten my set i've gotten better at that but like like sometimes though when i can't get over on them or when when there's like some sort of fundamental resistance and i know something has to do with me oh that's something i mean you see me do that yes yes i have you brought it to my attention i think you were a little overly angry at that situation but but then i feel bad well i but i'm saying that's the difference i'm saying we're two sides of a very similar coin well then if this is the case my side of the coin it's all personal stuff and your side of the coin is it's all personal but i take it out yeah yeah because i make my personal public there's no boundaries there but then what was the fundamental issue you were having that you know that all of a sudden you feel better because you're meditating everything else what was brewing inside you what was why were you what was it that was happening that made you go like i gotta fix this well i gotta tell you it didn't really get fixed really really get fixed until a year ago but what is it i got arrested was that the road rage thing yes that was the quote road rage thing um it wasn't really road i don't know what it was what it was was without going into immense detail why not well because legal reasons no i don't want poor people i've done it in my stand-up since then no here's the thing i was on this path this path of striving for enlightenment striving to be the best start though maybe sometime in my early 40s all right so it's still happening i know but what i'm saying is like you did you did the movie in your early 40s so you're already working so like you know what i had a stroke at that point what i had a stroke at 37 really yeah yeah i had a stroke at 37 what happened i woke up one morning the room was spinning and i'd had back surgery the month before i was on a cocktail of a bunch of drugs where were you living here in west hollywood i'm sweet sir married and everything married and everything married pregnant with our second child i um are you working i'm working as a matter of fact i already shot the hour larry david special okay if anyone wants to go back and watch the first season of curb your enthusiasm especially the very first episode you will notice that i'm strokey i can barely talk i got better because i had to perform the first season before after you oh it is before you and i pitched that ridiculous show to mbc before you started curb yeah but i was before i had a stroke right yeah yeah yeah let's talk about that later so you wake up the room spinning the room is the room spinning you know my wife had told me that after the surgery my eye was kind of droopy i'm on all sorts of meds yeah i didn't know it but i had developed type 2 diabetes yeah um so you have that i do have that yeah but i try controlling it with diet exercise um which i've been pretty good i've kept the weight off is that genetic type 2 yeah i don't know i guess if it's genetic if you're i mean i have diabetes in my family type 1 is the other people well i don't know how you get type 1 type 2 comes when you when you have a metabolic syndrome when you when you have a lot of weight you have a high cholesterol yeah how's your question on that good it's been great are you on the i'm not on anything so you have a stroke room spinning room spinning i go to the hospital tell me i have a stroke i'm slurring my words i'm thinking i'm never gonna be a comedian again how can you remember shit or what i remember everything 100 so you're just slurring your words i'm having trouble walking really have help walking uh and during the course of i never thought i'd work again but no but what'd you do you went to the hospital yeah i went to the emergency room they said you had a stroke and they put me on blood thinners coumadin yeah and i was in the hospital for a couple weeks i believe really yeah and i really was sitting in the hospital going what do i do now what do i do now and i'm about to have another kid oh my god no it was but the thing is through my life i had the heart problem i've had these vulnerable things yeah so that's why i look at life maybe a little bit different a little more positive you know yeah but also it's interesting because you are such a sort of bombastic sort of momentum guy right that like sort of like everything's happening and like boom out of nowhere this thing you have no control over but that's what i got from my mom my mom was a has always been a uh when she was a kid she would say to me she'd go return something it's always so embarrassing yeah she'd say a clerk is a jerk and i never understood like why is that person a jerk they're helping you but the point she was making is get the manager get what you need done very much like the woman who plays my wife on the goldbergs right you know who plays your wife on the goldbergs wendy mcclendon covey i'm sorry wendy mcclendon william covey all right so you have this thing and you go to the emergency room you had a stroke you're in the hospital for two weeks you're fearing for the future of your life and career but just like i didn't let anything stop me i wouldn't walk with a cane i walked with a golf club how long did it take it took about six months to fully rehab to fully rehab i went through regular rehab i went through you know talking rehab i had to start filming curb your enthusiasm a month later i you know i gotta give credit or credit to jamie masada man that guy gave me tons of spots and i had trouble because i had had a stroke but he just kept on giving me the spots did that make you feel weird when you got off stage like were you feeling like oh no it's frustrating because i when you can't all right there's no i i think there's no worse feeling when an audience is primed to see you and happy to see you and you suck right now i can deal with i'm on fire i'm feeling good and they're not grooving to it that's fine that's their problem right okay but if i know they're great and they're they're ready and i blow so it was night after night of this is a good crowd and i can't do what i'm trying i'm doing the best i can and i didn't get too down on myself but it was depressing but i kept on fighting and fighting fighting so when you have that attitude what can stop me right but that you say that was the beginning of a more spiritual search and you're talking about just will and spiritual search but jumping now to the to the so i thought that i was on that path until i got arrested that's when being arrested was at 40 at 50 just turned 52 it was like a week after my 52nd birthday so that's in a year ago yeah yeah so after the stroke you rebuilt last summer it was my 51st birthday so you rebuilt and you realize that you're fragile and that you know you're pushing but that's not necessarily spiritual just saying like i'm gonna it helps but i'm saying it helps and you think differently also i'm a father you know there's there's you think outside of yourself right okay so you're saying that like you know i had this like i had this scare i fought through it i recovered i'm grateful i have my family and my wife you know like i should be grateful every day right and would you not spending time with me and see me think that i'm a grateful guy yeah yeah you wouldn't think i'm an arrogant uh like jerk like self-involved jerk that's my point no that's my point and for comics that's a different way of going i think that like i always found you a confident guy very confident like i don't know like if i necessarily like there's no reason you should be grateful i mean people look at your career right right right you know if anything a bitter comic's gonna go like that lucky son of a bitch yeah that's possible you know i'm sure it's likely you know um but i don't think that way but no i know there's there's comics even now that i don't particularly get yeah but i'm happy for him and i understand it's rare that comic comes along and it becomes successful where i thoroughly confused but not confused but i know also you have a respect for you know dues paid and things that are that are earned versus things but but i don't hold that against the ones that don't pay their dues it's only gonna hurt them because they won't have the the uh the bait they won't anything to fall back on but you know i know for a fact and i know for myself that you know if you grow up a unique type of comic then you're always up against the comics that have success because they're not unique of course you gotta live with that well i'm a guy who loves charlie parker and john coltrane and all that sort of stuff so that's what they went through right you know lots of artists go through that you know and i always jumped on the jazz because it was easy to grab hold you know um yeah so um so you get arrested i'll get arrested so here you know here's in a nutshell what happened crowded parking lot saturday afternoon a corner of the cvs parking lot the corner of ventura and laurel canyon and it's very narrow and it's one way like each lane and suddenly a big mercedes s 500 starts going the wrong way right in front of me i'm like what are you doing my windows are closed she can't it's a hot day the air conditioning going you know and there's lines that people have she points she wants the space that i'm waiting for now i have a natural and the spaces are on an angle so the only way that she could get in the space not me 20 of us to back up and it would take her without exaggeration about five minutes to do the three-point turn yeah okay yeah and uh i like to joke and say a half hour but really five minutes which is a long time yeah yeah so when i said it's not going to work you know mouthing this to her so when the space opens up the person cannot back out and go because of her so it pulls forward there's you know it can pull forward so i pull in right before i pull in she starts blowing up her cheeks with her hands around like like in other words making fun of me for being fat go park fatty really oh most definitely it was completely clear now obviously that triggered something deep inside of me you know being made fun for being fat i mean that i'm like who are you why we're adults why would you do that you know and um i kept on thinking why would you do that that's crazy i mean over and over total righteous indignation okay like not only was she in the wrong way but now she was making fun of you in a personal way yes yeah so when i got out of my car she's still there all the cars are parking in her i go up to her window and punch with the side of my arm and i'm glad i told the stroke thing ahead of time i lost a lot of strength in my right arm i still lift weights and stuff but when i had my stroke my right arm is what suffered so i hit her window to say at the same time going why would what's wrong with you her window cracked okay well i step back because i couldn't it was a slow crack too and i step back and she gets out of the car and i say i'm so sorry i did not intend for that to happen you must have hit it pretty hard oh i'm sure i did yeah harder than i thought righteous indignation yeah harder than i even knew rage yes i would say rage but not because i wanted to do that breaker window right i wanted to use an implement you know something yeah i never wanted to do that i could but i didn't know i had the strength to do that now you know now i guess i do and so she got out and i said i'm so sorry but i did like a larry david thing i said to her but why would you make fun of me for being fat yeah and she says because you are fat and you a small penis and she begins to do a dance puffing up her cheeks the way she was she did a small dick dance too she did a small dick dance too now i backed up even more i was freaked out and so control yourself no i was completely calm i was scared she was acting nutty she was acting nutty yeah and law i mean there's a lot of pieces to this and whatever nothing more of what we what what i did because at this point i've done doing what i've done that broke one did it shatter it's just crack right down the middle so i'm staying away from her i am being calm i'm giving my information to her friend saying i'll pay for it all she's doing is call the police and i say to her calmly i am not coming after you i've given my driver's license her friend took a picture of my driver's license with her phone you know we're at that stage yeah well the cops come and i'm very calm i tell them what happened they tell me they have to arrest me because it's a mercedes s500 and it's felony vandalism if it was a toyota corolla they wouldn't have to arrest me because they have to arrest me because of the value not because of the action not because of the action it's felony vandalism vandalism you don't have to do anything violent to be to vandalize something right there was no there was nothing like attempted anything right vandalism i go to jail in jail none of the cops know who i am every prisoner does and they're all excited and freaked out then what are you doing here man and they're in there for some serious shit this is the l.a county right this is uh van nuys okay so i get out i was in there for like 12 hours and i get out did you have sex with anybody inside two or three young people okay not too young of age right i checked yeah okay because i know you kind of have to do that i'm gonna say that's lipid it wasn't even funny i'm gonna blame the premise i'm gonna blame the premise it was a bad premise it was all right so they sneak me out the back when i leave this tmz's there yeah i go home they drop the charges all that sort of stuff and but the city wants to meet with me to make sure this is the key part yeah the city wants to meet with me to make sure they're not like some phrase knucklehead right that this is going to be a repeated thing right but the charges have been dropped my rule your called the charges have been dropped two behaviours all right i guess i just want to be aropos Yay Ryan lawyer says you need to go to anger management.

I'm like, why? He goes, because if we say you've gone five times to anger management to the city, that'll really show that. So I went to anger management and I learned that anger management, I don't have an anger problem. I have an ego problem.

And then all I did what I wanted to do was stop my ego. And that's all I focused on. How do you learn that? What do you mean?

Well, that was a fallacy too, because there is no stopping. I learned you can't stop. No, but I mean, but like, had you had anger issues before? No, no, I'm not real.

I mean, I've gotten angry as people get angry, but I don't know. I never had an anger problem. But so how do you differentiate? Well, you're sitting there in anger management and you realize this thing.

How do you realize that? Because if you have no, for me, it was, it was, it was about my ego, my ego of being called fat. That's what it affected. My righteous indignation was all about, why would she call me fat?

She doesn't know that I've worked so hard not to be that fat and all that, but it was ego. And then I thought, as I studied this, I thought nothing good comes, confident, supremely good things happen. Being kind and humble, even though you're confident is fantastic, but ego screws up everything. Orders of shows, there's nothing good that comes from ego.

So I said about eliminating, this happened to me at 51, not 52. So it was a year and a half ago. So I said about eliminating, but then I learned, because you examined me, there is no eliminating ego. What you have to do is recognize it and say enough with that.

That's not going to do anybody any good. Well, the spiritual path is to get egoless to some degree. Well, to, yes, but I've learned so far in my journey that you can't eliminate the ego. You can only recognize it and see it for the bullshit that it is.

And then it goes away. Try to act differently. Try to be real. Try to be different.

You accept it, you see it, and then you make the choices that you make. Right. But sometimes you're too late and you have to say, oh, that was a bad choice. Yes, you have to be forgiving of yourself.

But it's almost like when people say, how do you go up on stage? Aren't you scared? Well, I went through, when I got sick with my heart, I went through a period of stage fright, which I also worked through. That's only got stage fright or anxiety.

You have to go, hi, stage fright. Hi, anxiety. I see you're here. And you can't say, don't feel this way.

Don't feel this way. You have to see them, accept it, and make your choices. And it works for me. Yeah.

So in Chicago, before you started doing stand-up, you did Second City? No, I was doing Second City stand-up at the same time. But you started both at the same time? No, I'd been doing stand-up before I started Second City.

Now, how long were you at Second City? Over the late 80s. But you were in the troupe? I was in every troupe.

And I was fired from every troupe, and I quit every troupe. Why? I'd get fired. For the same reason that you and I would have trouble getting a spot at the Comedy Cellar.

You know what it was? Audiences loved me in improv, but my peers didn't respect me. And then in stand-up, my peers respected me, but audiences were confused by me. Why didn't your peers respect you in improv?

Now I look back, and I think a lot of it had to do with jealousy. Because I've seen it with other people. Yes. I would say that one was more jealousy.

And I wouldn't say the audiences in stand-up who didn't like me were jealous. I hadn't figured it out. But I knew from my time at Second City when I went out that I had an inherent likability in the group setting, that you could point to me and go, there's the funny one. You know, the other six people on stage, there are five people.

Maybe one other might be funny, and one might be pretty funny, and the other one's three or four. Not funny at all. That's normal. And so I would walk out in that situation, and the audience immediately would go, we like him.

He's funny. No matter what my skill was. It's almost like in stand-up hack, who's really comfortable, and a funny person. Big guys, too.

Big guys. Big guys tend to like big guys, yeah. So when you were in Chicago, when did you live with Conan? I lived with Conan sometime in the late 80s.

Bob Odenkirk said to me, you know, there's a writer's strike, and a friend of mine's moving here to Chicago from L.A. or something. His name's Conan, which I laughed at. And then he moved in, and he was probably one of the two or three funniest people I'd ever spent time around.

I would wake him up at four in the morning to have him do funny things. And then he'd come home. Like, I'd come home, and he'd be sleeping, and I'd go, do that George Takei in this scenario thing. And then we did like a fake talk show in the living room, where he was actually the host, and I was his guest.

I either played Adam West or myself, and he was generally George Takei. It was during that period where Fox was looking, before our studio, after Joan Rivers, they were looking for someone. So we did our fake one in the living room where I was always the guest. He was always the host.

He was frustrated by me as the guest. Little did we know, little did we know, that he would go on to be a talk show. Right. And how long did you live with him?

We lived together less than a year. Yeah. Was he only in Chicago for that amount of time? Yeah.

Yeah, when he left, he wasn't like, I have to get out of here. And then how'd you get to Florida? Well, I moved to South Florida when I was in Chicago when I was a kid. I was 12.

And then I started comedy in South Florida at 20, moved back to Chicago at 22. Where did you start in South Florida? The comic strip. The same one from New York.

And I started there with Brian Regan. That was my other contemporary I started with. And Dennis? Dennis didn't start down there.

No, he started in New York after that. So you were seeing all the New York guys coming through there? Meeting all of them. Seinfeld, I mean everybody.

Don Marrera was one of the headliners. He had three headliners, getting $600 apiece, each doing 40 minutes. He was one of the headliners my very first night going on stage. Oh yeah?

Which was June 12th, 1982. Or June 14th, 1982, I believe. Really? Yeah.

Wow. Yeah. So now let's talk about our pitch. You want to go pitch?

I'm sorry. By the way, I look on that fondly. No, I do too. I'm trying to remember exactly how we came together.

Because I know I was not in a good place and I was needed to pitch something. And yeah, I'm not... Was there an outside person who asked us, did you approach me? I just don't remember.

I don't remember what it was. I think I might have thought of you, but you had that office in that... In the Asahi Braille building, which is now the Samsung building. I'm no longer there, but I had my office there through a lot of...

I must have been looking to pair up with a writer. Yeah. I don't think I had a deal. Remember, that was also the time where, like, Larry and Jerry had done it.

You know, there was like a history of that. Right, but I don't think I had a deal. No, you didn't have a deal. Yeah.