Episode 572 - Brian Koppelman

Alright, let's do this. How are you? What the fuck is what the fuck buddies? What the fucking years?

What the fuck nicks? What the fuck a hollocks? I am Mark Marin. This is WTF.

I appreciate your your listenership. Good day to you. I hope you're doing okay. I am squirrely as fuck.

I've been shooting all day. That's what I've been doing and I've been in my lip three times in the same fucking place and it's driving me nuts and every time I do it every time I hit it again I just want to punch myself in the fucking face because it's like what is that about? I understand it's because the the part that you bit gets a little bigger and so it becomes a natural target for whatever is gonna bite it my teeth So I just hit this place three times in my mouth and I hit the other side once it's like when is gonna stop it when I can't talk I got shit to do I'm on camera. I'm talking to you.

I'm recording stuff I can't be all bitten up in my mouth and I start worrying well shit Maybe I'm gonna get a cold sore now because it's all bitten up and I can't have a cold sore because I gotta take my show The weird thing about making television about having a production schedule is that there's no sort of like now I'm gonna take a sick day. I'm in every scene of of every show pretty much give or take a minute and We're making 13 shows. I'm not complaining. I just like I get panicky about shit I know what to tell you man Brian Copleman's on the show today And this is sometimes a thing that I don't always appreciate or understand or know what I'm supposed to do with Brian Copleman is a film director and a screenwriter.

He also has a podcast. He's a writer He wrote rounders and he's a director of a solitary man, which I believe you also wrote He's the host of the podcast of the moment. He's a guy I met years ago Says he's always been a fan of mine and he started his podcast because I inspired him a lot of people seem to be doing things That and they find me inspirational that makes me very happy I'm humbled by it, but I don't always take it into you know, I don't always really realize how profound that is I Don't know what I'm doing here. I don't have some sort of process or or or mode of operating I don't have a system Yeah, okay granted some of you guys listen to a lot of these and you're like now you sometimes you kind of do have a system Yeah, I have a style I guess but I didn't plan anything But you know, it's very flattering that people that people are inspired by me.

All right, so let's just laid out Okay, today, let me tell you I've been working with on the show Dave Anthony's back on mary in this season We shot a bunch of stuff in the rain last night. That's always great to be out in the chilling rain at night I know some of you were in a blizzard the other day kind of some of you were anticipating a blizzard didn't happen It rained a little here, but we're okay. Thank you for asking so we had a little rain We're doing some shooting we're driving and shooting very exciting me and Dave Anthony today I worked with with Andy Kindler I worked with Eddie Peppetone today tomorrow We're gonna we're shooting a big day of who else oh Eddie Peppetone again I'm not gonna tell you all the people playing themselves on the show cuz I don't want to spoil anything But it's going well. It's going well.

I'm not thrilled about my hair and Most of my pants are fitting well and the shirts. I'm happy with I've got new shoes That don't love because they're a little tight and I might have fucked up, but that's the way life goes now Let's go to a cat uptake. I look I you know, I tell you this because people ask me folks Monkey and La Fonda are fine. Okay.

All good ever since I've been giving them the monkey the prescription food his bladder has been better It's got all his energy back. He's not sick Fonda's getting a little fat, but she's fine She's not biting me very much and she she seems chipper now the outdoor situation is not great I don't know what happened to deaf black cat have not seen that guy in a while might be dead It's happened before but it feels like he was making weird noises with his face the last time I saw him It's nothing I could do about it. So I don't know I don't know what those noises meant. Maybe he's around don't know Scaredy cat the striped cat that's been coming around for about a decade He was coming around in back and he was doing fine getting fat wild cat fat wild cat You know a couple people are feeding him up the street and I'm just another sucker making him fat So then I'm son some other cat that looks exactly like him only a little smaller exactly like he just broke off a piece of Himself and it grew into another thing couldn't be a kitten because scaredy cats been fixed for a while But he looks exactly like him so I got these two identical striped cats and the little guy pushed the fat So out into the front because I don't he's freaked out He's only not front this guy's eating him back some sort of weird changing of the guard of these striped cats I don't know if scaredy cat number one is on his way out and scaredy cat number two is coming in but they They look identical.

So that's weird. I don't know what's ripping apart my lawn out front. I might be skunks might be raccoons That's the update from around here Things are fine with my relationship so far. I've not fucked it up and I'm keeping I'm keeping cool In other words, I'm repressing a lot of negative emotions and I'm calling that cool Just I'm just locking down some bullshit.

I'm just keeping it to myself and letting it fester and cause tumors inside of me So it's not to cause trouble for other people perhaps I should communicate better as opposed to give myself cancer good idea I'll work on it Thank you for all the presents. Thank you for all the kind letters. Thank you for all the emails I'm gonna start reading some emails again. I know people want it might be an easier thing to do while I'm shooting occasionally read the emails I feel stories brewing.

I'm just will will burnt out. It's a tough schedule my friends tough schedule Let's talk to Brian coupleman now like I don't really know, you know how people do things. Yes, I believe you I know what that means like how do you at 50 years old right? It's like okay Like it's still really I know that all I have to do really is spend a couple hours make a couple calls and I could have everything Cleaned up I got my driveway fix I can have the wall fixed.

I could do all that I just have to engage I could have this guy I could hire contractors and go with somewhere else for a while and just be like Well, that's happening, you know, they're doing my house But it's so overwhelming the anxiety of it that that's what's holding me back I'm actually successful as a word. I don't even like that word Before even if I bought a house like oh my god How do I make the right choice about decision making but there is some part of me that doesn't quite know how other people See me like cuz successful or no successful still whatever I do I come here I do this the only tangible way that I know that success is changing is other people coming to see me There's more people to come well, that's a little weird more. Yeah, of course you find it weird because you saw my It seems like you so identify yourself still, you know as the as the opposition as opposed to as the seated I don't know if I if it's the opposition because I know that I'm seated in my world Yeah, but it's I don't know if it's in the opposition, but certainly someone who's on the outside Sure. Yeah, but not the opposition fine Well, but yeah, because I still I am I am so on the outside But like I could make I could make decisions and live my life a little more on the inside if I wanted to and and you could accept That's not all disappearing because all of you guys successfully.

I don't know what that's the but that's the work You got isn't that the work you want to do? No, why because it can't all disappear anything can disappear Well, we could die yes, we could die I can get sick and I could disappear I mean it's not that it's not yes, but that um that it's not going to other than yes What people would say other than acts of God or yeah, you could get sick a boulder could fall out of the sky but but you are no longer going to self-destruct and And even if you weirdly you have to do a whole series of very dramatic things to reverse the course of all the stuff For the third season of your own TV. I do but I but it's still like but it's still like congratulations Thank you I don't know if it would take that many steps and then I don't worry about self-destructing I just and I don't really pay attention to money that much. I just keep going what I'm really concerned about is you know Not having You're not having a family not having dependence not you know having these things like I don't know what they'll do with myself So it's really like I would rather not do anything to be honest with you and people don't believe me when I say that But I really think that like I could occupy myself with it.

You know, I've done. Yeah, you could write you could play music I'm right. I don't want to write. No, how would you I so if you're not writing yeah, you know, you don't you play guitar?

Yeah, I like to do that. I'm not sure what I do. It's a fantasy. Yes.

I mean you have that out even for a It's just it's just anxiety. It's not even I don't think it's all gonna go away necessarily I'm you know I'm saving money and stuff, but I just don't know what it all means sometimes buddy. Well, no I get that the family Yes, I'm driving up here. I was thinking I was thinking about that You know, you know, you know, I can never tell anybody else certainly about the family stuff, but gosh, it's so easy to picture the way that you would Change and the way that it would just light up so many things for you to do it.

Yeah, I guess so I'm a little cynical right now Wait, you what you how long you've been married? I've been married 20 22. You know problems I'm like, you know that thing has been a luckiest thing in the world for me That's the the most important decision that you make and I was just fucking lucky I was 25 when I got married. Yeah, and I just married the right person and that's luck largely luck We don't strike me as a guy.

It's about to lose it do some stupid shit. I don't strike you like that. I'm not I know You seem like a pretty the right person. We have these great kids But part of it is that the person I married and I'm the same towards her We were just from the very beginning really on each other's like completely on each other's missions So when I was 30 and ready to and miserable about what I was doing with my life, you know, and we just had a little kid Amy Cleared out the storage area underneath the apartment We were like and Amy and she cleared out the storage area I'm like you're gonna do this and I'm gonna handle you know This first year of Sammy's life if you have to write in the morning and then go to work and then go out and research Because you know it was about poker and I was like playing cards She was like you can do this is when you were writing rounders.

Yeah, she was like my best friend Dave She cleared the space and David I met every morning But but the point of it is she said and from the beginning we had this thing with each other that We were just along for the we were there for like whatever this right She didn't want to be married to a guy that was whining about not having done something for the rest of his wife sure Maybe that's the thing maybe that's all it was well You just nothing worse than a guy like I should have made if I don't eat But a lot of people as you know would be would would douse the dream as opposed to stoking the dream Well, let's go back. So this was in New York anywhere. Yeah, New York You grew up in New York. I grew up in New York or along the island.

So you grew up on the island What town I grew up first in Westbury and then in a town called Roslyn Roslyn along Island. Yeah big house Oh, yeah big house pool. Yeah when I was 13 we moved into a big house before that we lived in a neighborhood in a night You know in a fine house in a neighborhood Jewish kids Italian kids Irish kids stick ball in the street basketball My dad was someone who was like made a lot of money and then would like spend it all I think he had in the first sort of like 11 years was great as he never let us my sisters and me know that it sort of was In flux but when he at a certain point like when I was 13 it became apparent. Oh, he did well We moved into this big ridiculous house no more Italian kids nor stick ball.

Then it was just the Jews No, I would I know we'd send the driver to get him to come over and play stick ball No, how many sisters you got two sisters and your dad's like a big deal yeah My dad was I mean he discovered the lemon spoonful John Sebastian people said look like him Yeah, my dad was a you know he was a kid he never finished college and he was a record producer He would he grow up New York City Queens. Yeah, so he was part of that like what in the 60s Yeah, I mean he had a hit record as a singer a novelty record called yogi. Yeah like went to top 10 Yeah, he was a music business. Yeah, he was a music business musician Not really he just wrote a hit record.

Yeah, I'm saying an allty record, but yeah, he uh He had great taste in knowing he was able to identify what songs are gonna be hit songs He always kind of knew knew that and when he was very young He met Don Kirschner playing basketball somewhere and before Kirschner was anything no Kirschner had just sort of been on the rise as Like a public as before way before dr. Rags of television yeah, who was when Kirschner was you had this big publishing company? Yeah, and he had money is right music publishing yeah, he hired my dad to be a songwriter and So my father was writing in one cubicle with his this guy named Donald Ruben his best friend and partner And then in the cubicle next to them was kara king and Jerry Gotham and next to kara king and Jerry Gotham You know would have been like we were in silver to dak out they were in another floor But essentially every aren't you ever there? Yeah, well, yeah sometimes our court in the building they were in that one in one next door And then when they're kersner kersner call him in and say what do you think of this song?

What do you think of that and finally call them in one day and say listen you are the worst songwriter I've ever Put under contract, but you really know what his songs are and by the way, I'm selling my company and but I have to stay here You become the president he made my dad my dad was like 24 the president of his publishing company Oh music Stop being a songwriter you're the guy who's gonna pick songs from now on and that's what he did and how where did he go from there? He did that and then he and his friend Donald left at a certain point and started their own company with that you know where they signed Tim Harden the great folks anger and songwriter and the spoonful and The guys who wrote the turtles hits and they made those records I did all that sort of like 60s pop rock stuff Mm-hmm, and then he had a long incredible career in the music business He was very focused on pop music after certain points. So he made a lot of our Streisand's records He made them in that he produced he was an executive producer them He would like pick the songs with Barbara sit there in the studio with the producers a big records Yeah, a lot of the big like the Barry Gibre records But I mean he produced in the studio He's the guy who produced if I were a carpenter for Bobby Darren hands on the knobs Yeah for Bobby Darren he if I were carpenter which was written by his songwriter Tim Harden and Bobby Darren talks about it in a special How he convinced him he and his partner to do it but so my dad the life I lived I grew up a lot in recording studios No Hollywood no showbiz so we wouldn't go to any parties. We had a very showbiz.

Oh, yeah, but he would only that he was very clear my mom was to My mom would always say to me who knows of any of this or anything is gonna be left You better figure out a dude on your own and you better not count on any of this being here in any way But also but did he still on the publishing of some songs? He's no at a certain point. He didn't he sold them No, he did he did fine. He was huge.

Oh dude. He was a gigantic He was he was became like he was one of the biggest independent music publishers who built their own thing and that's where all the money is in music Oh, yeah, I'm not yeah, he did he my dad did great. There's no question. How's he now?

He's awesome 75. I think or 74. What's he doing? I talked to him like every day.

What's he up to? Well, when he was like 50 years old, I think he got fired his last job was running in my North America and he got fired and And how do I think he was a fire? You know paid out and all that stuff? But everybody who runs a giant record company, especially then they all got you know, you get first one of those jobs You get fired basically and he reinvented himself over the course of five years and ended up like running companies that nothing to do with entertainment So I mean it's 25 years ago, you know He ended up like running Martha Stewart's company.

Oh, yeah, I'm on the board of that company. Yeah, he's done all sorts of sort of a CEO Okay, Sultan board member likes to work loves to work and you know still I mean it's it's the greatest thing. He's He's the most practical quick answers noble shit person no heirs I mean he really is a guy who you know Was a queen skid couldn't get through college because he was like gambling and fucking around went to the Coast Guard So that his parents wouldn't know we failed at college, you know gotten almost got basically court marshaled out But has a very very clear eye an incredible bullshit detector and really at the time He had these great years. He just knew yes, some people have that He just knew so you so you grew up around this music business and you grew up around you know the the enchanting nature of the music Business and also the business itself.

Yeah, and you were sort of like your dad was this big mocker which he was yeah And he grew up with money out on the island. Yeah, and it was I'll tell you it was um Something in me hated. I was like I never talked about this. So it's good.

I'm happy to do it Music no I hated living in a big house. I hated like I hated when I have people come over that I know that feeling We lived that I know that feeling to a certain degree Because you know you go to school depending where you go to school You got friends and like you know my parents that no it was not comparable money But we had a big house and we had a pool and there was something it was a it was embarrassing in somewhere Yeah, I mean I love obviously I loved and I Were an incredible gift it was that I never to worry about like where my meals were coming from or how I was gonna pay for college Did you think about that then? My mother was good at my mom was very good at she died six years ago, and not but she was incredibly good at pointing that stuff out Well, what were you what did you hate? Oh, yeah, I hated The value kind of that was I hated like the big I hated the bigness of it and I hated the grandiosity of it Because I hadn't done anything to earn it.

So it wasn't mine. I got car. Oh, yeah I got car well car was a person I I do I got you know like whatever you wanted Yeah, it didn't well no not like a Porsche But I what it was weird to I'll tell you because starting at a very young age But I think partially in reaction to it partially because my dad was so good at from a super young age He would have me like come in anytime. I wanted to the city.

I could sit in any meeting right he would do this great thing even when I was 11 12 years old, you know, let's say he was having a meeting with some some people who wanted to Play songs for him or producer who wanted to produce an act. Yeah or an artist Yeah, he would have me sit in the meeting and I was always a pretty good talker and he would say uh listen guys Mm-hmm you can say any fucking thing you want in front of the kid he would say, you know He's heard it all this and he would make me a participant he would bring me to the recording studio two in the morning and I know all the studio players and every bass player like every drummer and Those were the cool guys right. I mean that was the great. How old were you starting at like nine?

Yeah, and I guess I would put away the joints when I showed up until I was like 14 Then sometimes they would still get my dad would never but those guys would still get fucked up around me But they didn't when I was really little who were these guys which albums were you talking about? I mean it was like the guys a bunch of the guys who became total mm-hmm So it was like you know David Hungate and Steve Lucas there and Jeff Recaro and Skunk Baxter yeah, and Those guys were all super cool to me David Foster who you know was I when Josh Groban was in here So I was talking about David Foster was this giant music guy. Yeah, so but at a young age at 16 I started doing things that helped make a lot of money for my father and and that was great Then I felt like all right I was you're earning something helping like I was managing these folk acts and I had 16 Yeah, and I was this kid named. Okay, so this kid named Ethan Hurwitz Which sounds like a star he was a good songwriter So you're a precocious kid whose dad was his big deal and you kind of got music because you were living in music And you knew what your dad did so you're like I'm gonna manage bands Yeah, I started managing that's like young getting them gigs and trying to get them record you know people using names name your dad's name I mean I wasn't but I had a last name that they know I'm sure it helped but also it's so funny to have a 13 or 14 Okay calling and being serious that I'm sure people were humoring it booking them in clubs But like so here I'll tell you that so like for instance When Eddie Murphy was in his first year as a featured player on SNM He had a gig at a club near my house now.

This was a club that was called my father's place It's a legendary place I don't know how all the bands played it yeah, and I had made a deal with the guy there This kind of epi Epstein who owned that club is he was a giant guy There would be pictures of epi in the hot tubs with girls at the indeterminate age I made deal with my promote concerts on the weekends for kid bands playing for kid audiences during the day Yeah, like I said, yeah, yeah, you're a wheel dealer Well, yeah, and but I so as a result when Eddie Murphy was gonna play at this club I had a folk singer kid open for him and the folks in her kid got booed off the stage I was 16 10th grade and the folks in her got booed off the stage And it was a horrible night for him Eddie came out in destroyed and I snuck backstage afterwards And I went up to Eddie and I said listen you should be making albums Yeah, that's how I guess more Michael's didn't own everything right that the guys in SNL didn't it was only a feature player He hadn't yet fully explode. He was just playing a little club right and I found his manager backstage And I said he should be making was it the guy from the comics wax and I ended up working it out that my I woke my dad up in the middle of the night and I ended up working it out that they all met up the next day and Eddie's first three comedy Albums were like on my dad's thing really yeah, and so at that point I then started feeling like okay Well, I'm you know in some way yeah, contributing so you think this is my ticket. This is what I'm gonna do Well, I love yeah, that's what I always figured I always figured I was just gonna end up being in the music thing Like I figured oh I'll be a producer and I know that I know that was a you just did a in our with him So it's all it takes to do a in our rice with it so I'm gonna get points right you get points on the other Eddy but later I did but not an eddy why did you get dad so you throw your bone well What I just tell you 16 years I live in the big giant house and everything so very good a lot of food on the table He took me to done pappies a lot of Sunday nights for a pasta. I'm not gonna have any balls if you ask him I didn't know my points, but you know what man.

You know so great in 16 I'm not gonna get to then go to the delirious show right right and go sit there in the front I knew Eddie I took my friends was that your first experience with comedy Yeah, maybe I mean I love no my first experience of comedy David Steinberg and my dad were really good friends David Knew that I liked I loved comedy. I love Steve Martin I was a loved comedy as a kid and that's probably why I was set up to get how different Eddie was in a way Or like what a star Eddie was because I knew a lot I kind of like was around a lot of comedy But when I was 14 David Steinberg said hey, I'm gonna bring you New York City tonight There's a guy performing and Caroline's and he's either gonna be incredible Downtown he was supper club he's gonna be incredible He's gonna be horrible, but but either way he's a genius and you're gonna see something it was Gilbert Mm-hmm and it really was like one of those things like seeing that maybe understand the world in time because I think the first I met you was with Havy. Yeah, well yeah at the comic the comedy seller Mm-hmm. Yeah, like I don't know six years ago Was it you're upstairs and you're like this guy hanging around with Havy and I was like to kind of Addict to you probably ask me about well.

Yeah, you were asking me about movies like he was like on my friend behind the screenwriter I'm like oh really what really I was like what kind of was and then the worst thing is when I said ones that were actually successful That was worse for you. Yeah first you were skeptical and it went from skeptical to why the fuck does he get to do that? Yeah, that was that when you read that was hilarious That was I mean I had met you before but I was there that night that you and Havy had difficulty with one another and uh When you know you went long. Yes But so I saw Gilbert and I was around comedy and I was who wanted to be a comic and couldn't quite get up the guts to do You never tried it later.

I did I did for your now. You just stand up. Yeah for your when was that how did I miss that? I did it.

I did it like eight years ago man after I'd already made all the like tons of movies You tell me you did it at like 40. Yeah, that's when I did it What are you nuts? What do you do? I did for your and half not on the weekends But I was working during the week at stand out.

How'd your wife feel about that was she can't supportive She was like finally fucking do it for God's sake. Oh, so you did have one of those things about it I'm fucking do it because Havy and I had nothing to lose then Now you know that to get up on those stages now I hear about it. You were comfortable Oh, that's really think that's what you think I think that like alright So you made you made your money You always had a few bucks you there was nothing on the line and you know you got over the stage fright And you wrote your jokes and what do you really think you were gonna tour? You know, it's really I really had a moment here's what happened I was really blocked writing solitary man.

I was like halfway through it and I was super blocked. I watched it. Yes I know I liked it. Thank you.

It's a ballsy movie. Thank you. Yeah, it took me fucking four years to write it It's a ballsy movie though. Thanks man.

Yeah, no and I felt you relate to it somehow man. Yeah, I did And like I said you relate to it on both sides really I thought you would relate to it as the Sun like as the you know You relate to it from Janice perspective and from Michaels perspective. Well, let's go. Let's we forget to this I mean I'm glad you did stand up and I'm glad you got out but I but because you know, you don't want to be that guy Do you what do you want to do?

It helped you like get some courage? I got through it helped me really break through a bunch shit, right? It was huge to do because you know I'm singing I didn't I wanted to sing publicly for my whole life I was petrified but you have to back up at it I know I was talking about it the other day when you were talking to someone on your pocket on the show about How you're uncomfortable singing in public, but you've done it. You've done it on the podcast right?

But it's all very recent it was a terror like I just broke that cherry like three years ago on Greg Beren's show Where I just you know It was an amazing thing to do like because if you have this fear and you have this desire to do something through your entire life And it's something in your heart, but there's just it's really just basic wall of fear that if you just break through that wall And you're like no, this is I'm here now and then it never goes back. Well, I mean I was a horribly that thing I was a crushingly blocked person till I was 30 that was really the thing when I had to do to when you went downstairs go downstairs And start but what were you doing? You were in the music business? Yeah, and I had I had done fine in the music business You know where do you go for many Murphy?

So where'd you go to what'd you do? You're 16? You have signed any Murphy's Dale your dad's a big shot and where do you end up going? Yeah, I would say you know and it was largely my own choice because then you've been said about me and you know You were made these movies you had some bucks in your pocket I mean the truth is that because I made money for myself when I was 21 which I'll tell you I didn't at that time I didn't take I didn't have money from anyone but myself my wife and I was another piece of it You know your choice.

Yeah, my well my choice my father's a generous person, but I think it's you get to be your an adult I mean it doesn't mean my dad's never said hey come on a family vacation or you wouldn't offer that Whatever, but I mean I my wife and I've like lived on what we do the whole time and it was really It was really important to me about it. Yeah to live that way Especially when you come from a lot of money because that kills people well I mean I'm personal value system around that, you know, you know, who knows how the hell you turn out Yeah, you don't have to do any I you know, I know I hate myself essentially I hate myself if I didn't from a young age just like go and figure it out, but the battle so yes I went to college I was always I was never a great student, but I did a lot of different stuff So I went to a good school and I you know at the top so she's like a good college I lived over there in summer. I lived on cottage. Yeah, no you didn't I did.

That's hilarious I think I lived in a house at Tracy Chapman lived in She lived I believe you I mean I remember the how she lived at the end there So I mean that was the thing you know when I went to college I will say that the Long Island part of my life was just an incredible bubble right even when you ask that question like I did an Awareness and I was I had friends from every socio economic group the whole time But you are in a bubble when you grow up in the North Shore It is a very specific thing and did you have to lose the accent? I always matter to me not to have it I was a really you know like you I always read everything so I don't read as a jet right You know I read everything but you must have you must have run from being a jet I'm sure there are pictures of me wearing fila and Turned up the college then van van I mean this is all but no more important. I work a piezio's man I went to the whole other like but in college I became very as a people didn't you know I'm sure you remember the divestment movement when South Africa Yeah, because the colleges were invested in companies doing business in South Africa So a bunch of us especially these Northeastern liberal arts colleges felt it was unacceptable I kind of was one of the two or three people who led that movement at my school and in doing that meaning I organized like all campus Boycott classes to protest it got speakers to come in I was really like At the front of that with I didn't maybe there were five or six of us who really like did it probably a bigger group of really radicalized people Who thought protest everything I really only was involved in that that was the one that mattered to me because it just seemed egregious Right, but in doing that a friend of mine I got him pizzas. Oh who I grew up with and also went to Tufts I said, you know, there's a folk singer you should get to play at this rally you're organizing Yeah, and that's when I saw that's when I went to this little coffee house that was on campus and saw Tracy Chapman play and That was you know a truly empathetic moment my entire my entire world shifted on its axis It was like it was like in a movie I was crying everything to the entire focus of my life up to that point was one thing and from the moment she walked on That's the agent started singing for the next three years that only thing I cared about was that you know Everything changed and so you were a guy that was a socially active political Radical leader and then he saw Tracy Chapman.

I remember going up to her and we were never friends by the way and same years I could barely she's tears older. I could barely talk to her, you know, she was she was everything. I mean you think about it She was every single thing that I knew deep in my soul like I could never I could never have lived or understood really The life's you know raised by a single mother black Cleveland poor race riot started around her when she was a little girl the Totality of what led to that and then just the extraordinary talent the ability to then you know the mind that she had and the voice that she had and the ability to Translate that experience into these songs. I really did I remember sitting there and it's interesting to me because you come from this Like, you know, your father's focus and was post the 60s folk thing But like everything it seemed that he was doing came out of that but the relevance of folk music was gone But you knew the history of it I did I did sure right so so somehow or another you were transported to you know 1965 And you're in the middle of a political struggle in a way and it was like you were given the gift of a of a liberal Jewish catharsis Yes, you're not you're totally right I was and and yet and I will say and and it became it was just immediately clear to me That she was among the most gifted people walking the earth and I could not understand how I remember I said up all night I walked around and I said listen I'm here because I want you to as we were in a class together that's a moron taught and we were sitting next to each other We never spoke and I said hey You have to play this rally here's what we're doing.

She said okay. Well, yeah, I said but And I remember exactly what I said I said I said I've been managing bands as I was 13 and producing demos and working in record companies every summer and And I really have worked I said well I really have worked to be my own person But you're so extraordinary that I really think that my dad can help you too and that we should find a way to do something together And she said I'll play the rally that was it and I spent two years following her around me I so I I was Oh, yeah, I'm represented and college kid didn't want wasn't ready at first said like I you know I think she was she was maybe a senior and I was a sophomore I was a sophomore for sure and uh She said she played the rally the next day Which was my you know the sanity test right because I basically stayed up then I watched her the next day and I it was even better I couldn't believe I mean honestly mark if I'm talking about a revolution It was those songs not fast carbid it was talking about a revolution baby Can I hold you tonight all those songs from the first album half the song so first album and how the crowd would respond They well that's the thing that the meat taught me I'll say this some of those valuable lessons of those those three years taught me things that to this day give me an incredible amount of strength because She wasn't interested in all this at first and my dad wasn't interested because I wasn't a great student And I was so just easily distracted by all this stuff and he was like I'm sure she's great to go to school You know I don't want to hear about this bullshit. I'm sending up to college He didn't graduate college. I'm sure we scared to death.

I wouldn't graduate college. He really wanted me to graduate Yeah, but so I did a real record business thing which was I went I heard that Tracy had recorded for copyright purposes Mm-hmm songs at the radio station and tough and I had a friend of mine walk me to the radio station And he distracted the DJ yeah, and I stole the cart that she you know radio cards I stole the car they look like a track I went in the back and I copied the card on to a cassette and I put the cart back and then I had a cassette of talking about Revolution acoustic you did a little dirty business I did and I took that back to New York I flew back to New York and I Father like the next day or what fair you soon. Yeah, because I had to take I listen to it I just did take hundreds times right and then I remember exactly where I was I played it for him and he just You know my dad's credit at that time and the records he was making that word You know here you come again and Dolly Parton and Samantha He was making real pop records and so far away from this and what she did and he heard it and he immediately said You're right. She's you're correct She's like it but it still took years I would go and follow her shoot play these lesbian clubs all across New England and I would go alone I would get mocked mercilessly by my friends at college You know I was here almost yes, and they were not going with you to New Hampshire to see and I would walk in a room I'd be the only guy and it would be you know 200 women sharing at me And I'm sure that I was still you know I wasn't quite like a piece of those but I look like a douchebag and And eventually over time.

Were you talking to her during this time? Yeah, she would see much she would see me every I mean she would be like she would kind of smile like are you really you're really here like and again let me say I could barely Talk to her we were never friends, but she understood that I Was messing on about her I was telling everybody and trying to find a way to bring more people when you look back at it What was the what was the combination of you know being your father's son and looking for a hit record and being moved by the power of this Artist what was the wrong? No, I mean the question is great because it's all what led to me leaving the music business was ultimately all my sympathies All my sympathies were with the artist and I had to become I Instinctly every part of the process other than the moment of discovery and making records Was I felt like dirty and gross and involved in lying and the business did not exist in any way to serve these artists? I got you know Because like innately my perception of you which was which was off Was that this guy likes to be around talent?

I mean the night you met me. No, I'm just saying well Yeah, but whatever that like you know that somehow another and it makes sense because of your father that you know The message is that your appreciation of it was was was very personal that you know if somebody could express themselves You know in a complete way in a unique way that you know either you didn't feel like you had that or you you know You just needed to be around that to feel like whole or to be part of something Well, yeah I mean books and music and movies were the things that I and comedy those things were the things that I gave a shit about right? That's what it's a it sort of made you feel connected Yeah, but it was also that you know the thing Julia Cameron talks about the shadow artist in the artist way which is that But but at that time I didn't like at that time if you would have asked me I would have said I'll never be the person who's gonna create the stuff right? That's what I mean at that time there was no way that I thought I could I thought that the people who could do that?

Were touched and special and that no matter how much I wished I could express it. I couldn't that's what I'm saying Yeah, that's who I was then and it was that's torture by the way Yeah, but there's like if I read it there's still some party that feels it well No, I would say no no there's no part of it with a stand up There's no part of it where I feel like um, I mean I think I've written director produce 13 movies, right? So I'm doing and I do it so you're all good. I don't I mean all good.

No every day Just wish you no no I wish I were every day. This is true I wish I were better at it every day, but you said that you know in that process with her over those three years that you I'll tell you that guided your entire life or that there was a was like you yeah Well because it's something that's repeated itself which is that When we so what finally I got them together we all met who you and your father How'd you explain to Chapman that you did you keep it a secret that you had the tape that you're no I told her I told her what'd she say she just I mean she wasn't she wasn't a few words right, but she also probably didn't believe your bullshit for a while The whole time she didn't believe I mean the whole time it was this Jewish kid I mean I don't even think she wasn't like who's this just like who's this fucking what is this? What does he care about this for but eventually I do believe that well, I know eventually we got together and then I Went into a studio with Tracy and recorded acoustic demos like 20 songs 22 songs and After you have me your father. Yeah, yeah, then we said can we record demos?

What was the moment? She finally relented. Yeah, I mean it was did you dare to fly up? Oh, she flew down.

Yeah, he flew up to see her He flew up to see her for sure And she liked him I think immediately and probably more than she liked me you know, but he was not conflicted like the thing you're talking about is he was definitely Uninflicted and I was like we can make a record we did this your great artist and make a record I was like you're the CEO on one hand say the world on the other hand But sign on the you know like sign on the I was inside of that line because I see I mean it was a real split right for me Though I didn't know that then I would have said you when I would have meant that it was only about her Yeah, but there's also this this with this interesting Psychodynamic that you know like this was you know, you had this passion and commitment for musical artists And your father was a vehicle, but this was also, you know, you're on your father's turf and you're doing a big thing Well, yeah, but yes, but to me this really big thing But you have to remember where the world was that when we made these demos and then tried to get her signed to a major label Right because my dad had at that time a publishing company and a small production company couldn't didn't have didn't have Couldn't deliver a record right couldn't wouldn't didn't pay to record an album We did demos and then went and shopped her for a label deal and these you and your dad Yeah, these were me and my separately and together we were because I'd worked because I was so interested in it like every summer I worked I was always out watching bands. I knew people at every label because my father was it's funny You know the way in which he was incredibly generous to me Although he would certainly like have been paid for college and law school and all that stuff but The way was he would always a lot of guys were successful They want to smother the people around them and he would always like if I was going into a room or into a world Like go to your thing man make it happen. You were going to law school. I later I went to law school.

Yeah, I did a lot of shit. I graduated law school, but I never practiced um and But that was later that was for a whole different reason that was when I was knew I had to leave music and do something that was Like real and I was gonna go I want to practice civil rights law That was what I was gonna do I read more is these book a season for justice and that blew my mind and then right away I lost my real school This isn't a way to affect change, but I was already in and I just finished one at night I was working full-time and I went at night But did the Tracy lesson to get back to the thing that that I felt was ultimately such an empowering lesson But miserable the time he's a our guys would come up and women would come up to Boston Tracy would perform in front of 300 people going crazy because she had built a real audience for herself in New England She would play all those songs but that voice they would stand up and give her four on course The and our person would almost have tears in their eyes and they would say to me. Can I please meet her? I'm so blown away by this and I would say yes, so come back meter I'd walk into their car and they would say you know I can't sign her and I said what do you mean?

What does that mean? They say what I mean? I mean no one's gonna play it no one's gonna buy it It's amazing you this woman is the real deal, but I would like a copy it I'm glad I have the demo they all passed except for one person the guy at electric records the president of electric Gras now and even Bob when you so then senior year college making the record that summer before senior year I mean one other guy figured out who should produce the record got rejected by tons of producers I still know a bunch of these guys I would take them out and try to convince them and they all said like this is never gonna Happen and happen this work and don't care about this kind of music. Mm-hmm.

We got this guy David Kirschman to produce it And every day they were fed-axing me we were here's a coin on lma la I was in Boston They would send me every day the basic tracks and I'm a senior in college getting these tapes of his album being made and giving my notes I cried I was the one doing it now. It's weird. I never talked to Tracy I only talked to the ticershram out, but like what is your what is your credit on that record executive producer? And I have that I had a point on that out.

Mm-hmm. So that okay, so you get asked when I had the point on that album I asked for and got a point so but so you're a senior college you get in these records and what's the lesson? Well, no the lesson was that every we finished the album and go and present it to a lecture And they say this is great And I remember it was a huge conference table and every single person stood up and said I can't get played on my format And none of the stores I sell to will buy it and I remember my dad stood up and he said you guys all love it personally And they said yeah, I play my wife loves it My husband loves it and he said you're not in your mind It's like what the fuck have you bought into it? So the random president of the record company that I walked us back my dad's I was like around the corner He walked us back and he said your father's insane Brian If you sell 50,000 albums you've won and started a career and done something important and beautiful and never forget that and You know the things sold 13 million albums worldwide and and it just the experts I realize the experts don't know any better than I do everyone's afraid and they're all scared and they are Especially when something touches that special place in them their instinct is to run from it But that's it's weird because what that means is that they're Instinctively false instincts about what they think people want the public and that there's somehow insulated and unique in their emotions Like if cuz all they do is look at the market what's selling what's selling what's selling that is repeated itself So over and over the movies too.

I mean I've told the story before but I mean, you know, I think stuff we're talking about now I mean, this is deep history. I'm 48. I mean this happened when I was 21 and 22 and you know I left the music business at 30 so the last 18 years have been far away from it But I will say you know rounders was rejected That's gripped by every single agency in Hollywood and the day that then Harvey Weinstein bought it They all called us and all wanted to sign us and they all rejected us and said it'll never be a movie and it's not It becomes this really important called the lesson as what the experts are fucking wrong all the time They don't know the gatekeepers the gatekeepers. They're just concerned about keeping their job as a gatekeeper Yeah, but it's I said oh, you know that as the person doing the thing It's very hard to not let it penetrate you.

It's very hard for it not to be wounding when because especially when you Invest so much in creating. It's very hard and especially for young artists who are trying and those people I try to talk to all the time It's like it's very easy to turn back and to change fundamentally the what the thing is that you do And to believe that their judgment is right because on her business card It says vice president or on his it says general manager, but in fact Most of the time they'll fucking know and also it's relative to your expectations as well I mean, it's like if you're just passionate about what you're doing. It doesn't that's what we mean It's like this has got to sell to everyone in the world, but it is worthy Well, yeah, I would never have said to you. Oh, this album is gonna sell 10 million or 10 million copies What happened in relationship with her what happened to her career?

Well, she ended up I mean that you know, I'm just having a right that huge song give me one reason that was a song we had demoed together all her records No, my dad's I'm sure my dad had it. I only was involved in the first one Yeah, although songs that she and I recorded and like that I helped choose which ones ended up being on some subsequent records No, man We did not have any relationship really I mean I I saw her she definitely when she was recording the second album I went to the studio once the producer the same guy called me and I the last time I saw Tracy was then so I was probably 24 that's interesting and no gratitude was there, you know, it's I will say this my gratitude to her is so Enormous because my entire life changed and the last one I said to her I feel that I think she felt she had lawyers and everybody made sure of it, but I think she felt somehow that Why didn't she own her song? You know, why was there publishing deal? Why did we have points on her?

You know, I think she felt though never articulated this to me I never understood exactly I've had to intuit what her Story is and I've tried a couple years ago to reach out to her and say like hey, let's meet and I still very much want to because I have Incredibly high regard for her. I was absolutely You know hurt by it for sure that I'd spent so much time and energy in trying to Get her music to the world. I never I don't think she ever knew that How deeply involved I wasn't making that first album musicians know and the producer knows I don't think she ever knew because I and it's my failing I thought she was so many leagues and levels beyond me in terms of depth intellect Authenticity experience, but I can never talk to her really other than this sort of in a very good way say you're you know I understand what you're doing and it's really important and I want to help you so that all definitely That's what I could communicate But I don't think she knows that like you know when they were caught a talk about a revolution They recorded it, you know 10 beats a minute too slow And and I you know got them all on the phone and had them redo it and resend me the track or the mixes with a seat Like there's no way because I was too scared to talk about it. I was 20 or 21 years old I couldn't I couldn't figure out how to she never responded to you Someday I'll run into somewhere.

This is my song I was that the studio in the parking lot and she rolled down her window and she smiled a million I said without here and I said thanks. I said listen you really uh no matter what you know You my life's forever changed for having seen you and I'll be forever grateful and she said listen We changed each other's lives and I feel the same way about that. That's so we had that moment That's good Yeah, you know it was a long time ago and and I know I know that whatever the narrative she has and her narrative may be correct You know I can't I will say that That having been there to help do that and she would have found her way in some way maybe I mean I did What her way what her idea there was yeah, but I do and it was and it was in so many ways because ultimately having done that Release me from having to Compete with this idea of what my dad did in that business and then I had to do it and it was enabled me to go okay I that happens I did it and I you know had a few more of those things but like so they're in so many ways But if you're asking me is is a part of me is there a part of me that's still heartbroken But what I can't understand that what happened sounds like that parking lot thing could be enough. Yeah, what exactly do you expect?

I mean something you said she's a grown up. I guess I expect that as a grown-up person now. I would love to know The ways in which I let her down right I would like to know what part of that wasn't communicated Yeah, but that might just be your your own desire to confirm something that is a fundamental element your personality of not thinking good enough Sure, if there isn't any of that I mean I mean gratitude is a big deal if somebody is genuinely grateful and even in that moment she expressed that to you and you felt it Maybe she's transcended whatever the hell you need to feed yourself the loathing sure sure I'll buy all that I like to do is because I always do this exact thing for people, but yeah, that's possible But then also just as a human level this thing did happen that Was a really significant thing and and I have you know I have it's one of the only things about which I have very unresolved feelings because I've Throughout my life because I've always tried to like own it wherever I was I tried to like you know square counts Yeah, okay, you know it sounds like it might be square. Okay, great You know I mean whatever like whatever like a lot of times our emotional needs can't be met because you might be making something up You know maybe she's thinking about you know, who knows maybe like whatever you whatever your assumptions are about what effect you had a negative Way or where you where you failed her they might be your projections You're running on no evidence though.

It sounds like the last exchange you had whether you shared like, you know a mutual moment of gratitude Yeah, and then you're sort of like no, but I must have Well, yeah, yeah, well, I guess it's the desire You know it is it's the desire if you do the desire to confirm worse the worst self-appinion or It's the desire to be seen you know, it's a desire to be sure of like scene Yeah But I also think that you might be you know the way you're talking about your initial relationship with her even though it was one Sided I mean you were consumed with this person. Yes, so so so I mean, you know, whatever it was, you know heartbreak is relative I mean those feelings that you had you know, they weren't unrequited in a way. Yeah. Yeah, yes for sure they were and then and I guess norm and then the fact that I guess it's this right the fact that everything I said to her would come true came true and and and And so then I would some part of me wants to be able to just like Understand that on balance like on balance was this bad for like unbalanced is bad for her or was it good for her?

What would you dad have done? Oh, I mean he would say they always break your heart. Yeah They're gonna break their heart there. They're gonna break your heart, but I was built slightly differently Yeah, so you were in the music business for another eight years.

Yeah years. Yeah, what'd you do like you quickly? And are for different labels and see where the guy went out and found the things and I found a couple of them I could think that became hits I was sometimes ahead of it So like I signed David great was first American deal I signed five for fighting to their first American to their like a deal John Drossing five for fighting to get Josh Addison sold a couple million albums that I signed and then and then as I wrote, you know kind of like advanced up the ranks This guy who I brought in brought to you what I mean and we signed them together now was a big deal thing It's a tough business because like you know these a and R guys They have their run so if you weren't gonna gun him for executive or you know some it's brutal because no the part that's bad is that especially Van the artists were treated socially and that it was what it was impossible from it was really difficult to marshal the forces for me to To get them all to understand what was really special about these artists So like David Gray who then you know two years later sold five million albums to him I couldn't keep my word because I told him I flew around the world to sign him I'd heard his little record that he made in England and spent a year and a half like going Hey, when you're gonna get this little deal come make a record America And then I couldn't keep my word to him because I couldn't get them to put the records in the store I couldn't so but but I mean what started to happen mark. Yeah Was that the when my son was born?

Which was really when I was almost 30 when my son was born I realized that I wouldn't This is good. I journaled a lot then so like I actually know this is what I was thinking It sounds almost too pat but what I realized was I'm miserable I don't want to be the guy telling somebody to rewrite their course and then helping them rewrite the course and then You know telling them oh that bridge is really the second verse and the second verse of the bridge I Realize that I would not be able to tell my kids that they could follow whatever their dream in life was if I wasn't and I knew That if I didn't find a way to become Somebody who did it who wrote and made movies that I would have I would never get over it What was the dream like that was the dream initially? Yeah, so the music thing was just sort of like all right dad All my friends were right I realized was every person it's not the thing you said about talent all my friends were writers I just wanted to be around people who wrote and I was that I was the guy who people would give their stuff to to make better and Hey, how should I fix it? Which I edit but um I was a horribly blocked writer couldn't give five page You know I'd write five great pages and I couldn't write anything else So in essence the the opportunity like the Tracy Chapman event was innate because you Grew up in it and it served a lot to sort of honor your father on yourself level the playing field You did what you had to do and and you know you realize you couldn't be your dad on some level Even though that business was your business and then you found this you knew this other thing was going on I did I realized I just realized I was miserable like I just hated myself I went to law school cuz I thought like oh all these people in the record business or you know a bunch of fucking idiots And also I'm wasting my talent and I'm wasting my brain and nobody reads and nobody knows what's going on in the world And they don't care and you know so I went to law school where a lot of great people I was at night which was awesome for tonight We'll get a lot of cops who were trying to better them so I give great crew of people at night and it's a great law school so but Still I had this other thing that was like eating me alive.

I never smoked cigarettes in my life I've never had substance you know lucky substance issues. I started fucking smoking and start smoking at 29 Yeah, I remember sitting in my office in the record business smoking a cigarette Fat miserable I you know knew this artist had called me from the middle of the country the records weren't in the stores They're playing that in store without the records there. Are you dealing with that shit? Oh, yeah, because they I would give you words these people come and sign and I'll protect you and I'll you know And then you can't and it's helpless but all that was the sort of like outer layer stuff I knew that I had to see if I was the thing or I wasn't the thing and that I would never be happy if I couldn't figure it out And if I didn't chase it I would never forgive myself and this is at 30 or 40 30 30 And that's when he said to your wife.

I got to do this well She'd been saying it's me for years she was like you're supposed to be writing and making movies and making tell them You're not supposed to do this not getting fat and smoking heading for a Yeah, what are you doing we're in about records what he was like? And why and I went to my best friend who has been my best friends were 14 years old and are you're an half older and He had been Writing and trying to do it. He had written a novel that later got published He knew he would send me screenplays sometimes with people and I said I really let's do this thing Let's figure out how to write a movie and he said all right. We're gonna read these things You know read the art he gave me the artist way.

He said do the artist feel unbligh. I hate that shit No, none of that. He said read the artist way because I'll help you get unblocked And then I'd also start a play poker all the time But in LA I walked into a poker club in New York looked around and it was the second one of those like moments like I looked at it I called him in the middle of the night and I go really third the third thing like that professionally I walked in looked at the poker room. It was this illegal poker room.

I heard the way the people were talking I saw how they dressed yeah, and I was like this is how's no one made a movie right and so David I just met every morning wrote that script you have a poker problem almost Any other gambling is really bad for me. Yeah, if I start to play black checker crafts, I'll lose everything I'll ask you for your money I have to go take my I'll max out my thing if I only stick the poker everything so I will still set the poker It's different. Yeah, but I became obsessive about it And so you know then we did have this miraculous thing of you know got rejected But we were rounders yeah, and that but you know it getting to make that movie which really did start there Been documentaries about it It really started the poker boom and although the movie wasn't a hit in theaters You know it became a real cultural thing that matters to a group of people sort of like you know men 45 and under I nearly really give a shit about that movie and then I you know was able to do this thing that got you That was 18 years ago, and then you wrote a bunch of other movies Yeah, then wrote other movies and produced and directed No, I know but like these some of these are big movies like it when you do a movie like walking tall Yeah, how much time do you spend with the original no walking that was a four-week rewrite that was good and no But like Ocean's 13 that's a real you know that David I just wrote that movie yeah more on said of that movie every day right and Yeah, that was I mean that was that's a big movie Yeah, that was an incredible thing to be able to be a part of and to do and you know how you that opportunity So what was that the third in the series of the second third? So I'd say franchise already you know guys it must be fun to be able to write for the characters as they stand Giant pressure writing it because the only you know We would have if we didn't write a script that they wanted to make we would have been Everyone would have just blamed us was that your first real big money movie as a writer?

Well in what way mean getting paid a lot of money Yeah, no, we got started getting paid a lot soon after rounders Yeah, yeah, because because you start getting hired the way how it works If you write a movie that people regard and that has like cool swaggery dialogue in their mind Hollywood's mind Then they'll ask you do that well, then they want you to do that on their big movie But I'll say you get some money right half of our yeah, but I will say that this is um I don't know that this is good or bad. This is just true Half the movies we made are indie movies and we I'd say a few different times sort of like I was able to amass some savings and then use those savings to lick so that my family didn't have to change the quality of life Yeah, I'm making a movie for free for two years So like a few different times a couple times we went and and in order to be able to make a movie had to not make any money You know go from making a lot of money to making no money for your and half But you had everything in order wasn't like you were no I mean no at the end of those no it's very scary at the end at that period of time A couple of different times we had to like scramble to go like okay, I know at the end of soldier man I know say I have some retirement my money my kids college accounts You couldn't get yeah, but I had no savings left right that movie now is like cuz you know You gotta live but but there's also like but you're passionate enough It's amazing thing to commit to a movie because you know when I hear people talk about it I don't have the nerves for it You know that to have a vision to execute the vision then to stay in it for the years that it takes to make the vision a reality To me is daunting and it causes anxiety just to think about it to have that much to have the fortitude to commit to it Yeah, I'll say that the committing to it to get to be able to get lost and doing that is the greatest It's like such an incredible I guess every step to the way especially with something like solitary man You know you got the idea then you got the story then you got the script and then you get somebody like Michael Douglas attached to it Then every every turn but yes juice I mean writing it took four years and I was miserable in the middle of it I couldn't figure it out and well I was out I was the way a couple things I would say one I the thing you said before you said two things that I think are not exactly true one Which really is annoying is that there was nothing at stake when I was in stand up because that for you to say that When all you judge people on is whether they've actually done it or not is bullshit because there's nothing else in the way as you've said It doesn't matter what the fuck you have if you're standing on that stage and pomming and I did it four nights a week Like I did it every night. Well what I meant by that And I don't want you to misunderstand me is that there's a difference between you know And as you did with the music business not necessarily quite the same But when you go all into something and there is nothing behind you is different But I didn't know I will say this I was so I'm I lead all the time and that's why as you know I do this podcast now the moment and I just don't calculate So I just lead by like me something about going to movie like I would never think about the ramifications of it All I think about is a the whole pursuit for me is to be authentic and to be comfortable in my skin Every part of the way has been a journey up to get to like, you know, okay Is to get to like am I okay? Am I am I being exactly what I want to be yourself?

Yeah, I'm I being what I want to be yeah and so I Until I did stand up and knew and put in like 18 months of really doing it I didn't know I had to know can I do it could I actually hang could I follow Todd Lynn and could I follow Chris Rock and could I Stand it when Todd Lynn was in the back of the club watching me knowing that he thought he's the guy look at this Well, you know He was like look at this deal and then when he came up to me and you know And that guy was so difficult and came up to me and he was brilliant and so fucked up and brilliant and you know He was like oh you could fucking do this. I hate you You could really do it Yeah, and that's why I became friends with Galman and Dan Soder and all those dudes was because like Soder tells the story That he was sure I was a construction worker until I didn't know it first what I did yeah He sort of was like I took her construction worker the first three months I knew you well I get it I get the warrior approach and I get that you had something to prove to yourself now There's an I had to like go and do it no, but I remember but still hard for me not to look at you as a weekend warrior on some level I'm glad you did it. Yeah, but first of all anyone who actually no we can worry or somebody who went to three open mics And a couple bringer shows all right all right no it's never didn't tell me is there not a difference between showing up Wednesday at 1210 at Boston with nine drunks three of them Scandinavian in the audience and having to figure out How to get through that with like your dignity Yeah, but there's some part of you that wanted to beat the shit out of yourself in order to find yourself And that was a fine venue to do it. Yeah, but every community anybody I'm not trying to tell me I'm not taking away your experience But I mean the way you're framing it is that you know all because the territory I guess this is what a point is the battle for me to actually Get to being and the reason I talk about it is I hear from people every day who are sitting in whatever their job is and they have this fucking dream That they don't chase down because they think Something you had to do I've talked to hey, he would say to you that when I was like I would go with him to fucking sell it When I was 22 years old right so I was the manor I would go with it to hate with habe to the seller every weekend for you For certainly for like a year and I just told me that your dream was to be a movie writer Well, it was yeah, but though to be actively creative and okay No, and then I know what it came to was yes I have to I have to be able to do this thing and write movies But I'd written all these movies with a partner my best friend Dave I hadn't written a movie alone and still had the question could I really could I really get in there and Write this thing because it was that movie was super important to me to write and when I was at the point in the middle of it Where I couldn't solve it something said to me.

I'm you're still scared and the reason you're still scared is The thing that you've been the most terrified of in your life in all this stuff is can you stand on a stage with the microphone and get Through it and I was like fuck and I had to fucking do it. Okay. That's fine. No, no, and I respect that I'm not I'm not taking your experience away because it's hard No, but what I'm saying is like, you know, I did morning radio for a year and a half I would never call myself a radio guy that there there never heard me say I'm a comedian I would never say that I agree with you.

I'm never say I'm a comedian Yeah, but you needed to do it I'm glad you did it That's it and what but was that too like not only because it seems to me in watching the film that in order to to garner any sympathy for that character That had to be so true And the thing that you're talking about the fearlessness in the face of a failure to the point of almost Sociopathology that was instrumental in that character that you know somebody who is was fearless to the point of Denial and in inability to change. Oh, yeah Well that that character in that movie I mean came out of some people that I knew and out of anger, you know, I started writing it out of anger and what do you mean? anger I started writing it out of anger because Someone I know very well their father is very much like not not my dad Not so is very much like that guy and did the thing at the opening of the movie Which is he was going to meet his grown-up daughter and his grown-up daughter said hi dad And he said don't call me down in public because it makes it too hard to pick up women And when I heard that story I got so enraged that a man would say that to his daughter and like hurt her in that way deny his You know deny his own daughter because I called dad that I wrote the first 20 pages in a Almost exactly as they were on the movie just in a fever the next morning and then had these pages staring at me And knew that if I could get that character going for a whole movie it could really be something But you know to do that the weird thing about it is that even me in the familiarity with that character I mean whether it was your friend's father or not that character that character that character on some level is every man if he had Game so the thing is is that innately that character is sympathetic and should not read that way to me anyways And I think that the challenge that it seems to me that you were up against was making that guy human yes for sure I'm being able to have him talking away that you would take the ride of them David I directed it together and you know we were incredibly lucky that Michael said he did the movie because Michael has so much Charm and is able to You know I guess part of it also was more parts of the movie had to be funny And maybe I just had to get up on stage to know that I can make it fun No look you had to get up on stage to break through a wall for yourself Yeah, just to know that the rejection just to know that I could live through that rejection sure the rejection of nine people at 12 In the morning for some reason it takes a very free yeah in those moments It seems all important to the entire world So now why is it so much watching because like yeah the I once I once bombed in front of like 300 people at Carolines early And it was not nearly as bad as the nine like we think you should be able to manage that you know I mean Christ if you can't charm nine people right that's the nine people you go one by one Yeah, you just can't you just can't fathom that you have that little ability to connect sometimes Yeah, I mean it's easier to bomb in front of a big audience I think because like you know, it's easier to gauge because you got all these people It's like that's not quite enough laughter for a room this size with nine people you almost feel your heart connecting to them So, you know, they're right there. Yeah, it's not a more it's not this big You know it's a fascinating thing too.

It's fascinating how quickly you can turn mean on like it's just a fascinating thing Yeah, but it's fascinating thing to do to see you know the places that you'll go the place you'll go in desperation But that's the thing about saying if it's like you didn't do whatever the fuck you want to and certainly you know Add a 1210 spot on a Thursday or Tuesday It's like who's gonna tell you the door guy who wants to be a comic that you're doing wrong You can literally go up on stage and look at people and go fuck you fuck you right and you know you might get hit But you could do it no amazing thing is that when The people that I that you know then that I knew then I did open-minds You know that then you know the two same people in the open mic who became really like the the connection you have with people who were in those clubs It's like a very intense Yeah, it's always is even if it's only for a day that you know because it's the life is so specific and you know And the commitment to it and the sort of the connection of the weird selfishness of all of us Yeah, we're also close in some weird way. It's very intense You know it's an intense and intense thing And so the other thing that I think is not is only half right when you said that I struck you someone to want to be around talent And I know you mean by talent um the way for the business use that term It's actually more it's simpler and more innocent than that which is that I I am always searching out like Genius and I want I am constantly in trying to push myself to be better and also When someone's work really it's not talent. I you know I I don't I don't Don't give a shit about fame about meeting famous people or about meeting people who are regarded by the world I I care about if I think that their special great and their work is amazing that I want to be around because I want to like learn from that I want to look at it I want to engage in some way and be able to talk about this why I do my podcast because I'm the whole premise of it is that You know, I'm fascinated by how like remarkable people process big moments bigger Better bad really not remarkable people that it's people who accomplish remarkable things like how do they handle crushing disappointment or huge success and Move forward. I'm just fascinated.

Yeah, but what is it? What do you feel like you're lacking? I don't know what I'm lacking. What am I?

I don't know? Um, I am When are you gonna know you never know man? I you know all you can do is try to keep going right like how can you really know? What it would be like to do something really Beautiful, mm-hmm, and then I realize just do the work like at a certain point I realized I'll just do your best like do the work don't don't don't worry about that But I still like having the conversations.

I still like hearing it. I still part of me probably still thinks, you know, it kills me The David Foster Wallace I met him twice, but it kills me that he died I feel so you know and I never got to really like hear it from him like what did you feel like to be that? You know, what does it really feel like? To be this month, you know to be that deep and that smart apparently it felt a little too much But I don't know that pursuit is still he enormous I mean that's what you when you're a writer you're and you create characters even you're trying I mean, I don't think about what it is.

I'm trying to work out and that stuff But it's I'm actually trying to touch some experience In a way that's different than you experience it or understand it well. I'll tell you that movie solitary man Cuz took a couple of turns I didn't see coming and they were very bold, but you know the ending is ball the ending Yeah, thanks. I remember writing the ending of it and knowing And there might have been one day it was great because Dave Levine my partner is one of the greatest guys on the I mean You know the best guy I know and They're right before we started. Did you look at that ending and go like well not a lot of people are gonna see this movie?

No, you know when people were refusing to make it right when people were rejecting it if I would change the ending I would have a big deal for the movie I know and but we said no over and over again and then I remember standing there with Soderberg who produced the movie I helped us and got Michael Douglas. He said don't shoot He wasn't gonna be there when we shot the end of the movie and he said listen you're gonna have a huge Instinctive poll to protect yourself and shoot an ending that's different from that you're gonna want to cover it Do not if you shoot another ending someone's gonna force you to use it don't do it and remember being there on the day And they said director coming up and going do you guys want to just have him and I'll tell you my insecurity rose up And I almost did it and Lavine just said no fucking away. The ending you wrote is the ending were shooting That's it. Yeah, and that was it.

That's all that we did because man I know I just knew that that's where that had to sit and then I got really well protected by my partner and I was able you know was able to keep it that way, but I Did I will say I I felt like from I felt like you would get something out of it You know son of me for everybody, but I felt you would just well I do and I'm in we're not gonna have any This is the end mark man. Listen. I'm so I gotta say yeah I'm happy to be here. This has been I love the show and you've done a real good You know you've done a really good thing.

Thanks man Do you have your experience you all right with it how I feel doesn't matter It all matters to me right now No, didn't you say it doesn't matter how we feel it only matters that we did it No, but I know that you wanted to do it and you know what the and I inspired you somehow What was your your WTF experience? It was really good. Are there any coffee mugs? Do you have any more?

I'll give you a mug. All right. All right. I just think the sooner mug.

All right. All right. Good talking you All right see that he's got his podcast. I got my podcast.

He started interviewing me a little bit It was interesting. I think I like that guy. You got one good I thought anyways go to wtf pod.com and get on that mailing list because I'm gonna be uh got something coming up I might want to share with you get some just coffee dot co-op over there Leave a comment get the app upgrade to the premium app stream all the stuff whatever right?