Episode 667 - Neil Strauss

All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fucking ears?

What the fucksters? What the fuck is happening? How are you? This is Mark Maron.

This is my show. This is WTF, the podcast. I'm broadcasting today from a snowed-in room in Albuquerque, New Mexico. It's not, I do not think that it's the, any similar, I don't think it's similar at all to The Hateful Eight, which I've not seen yet, but apparently there's a situation where there's several characters snowed in and it gets a little rough.

That's all I know about that movie. There's a, there's a weather situation and then shit hits the fan in many different bloody ways. I am going to see the film, but I have not, this does not seem to be happening. What do we got going on?

Let's just, let's just try to stay in the moment here. I have Neil Strauss on the show today. Now, Neil Strauss wrote a book that caused a little trouble for some people, but I think some people got a lot out of it. It was a relatively controversial book a few years ago called The Game.

It was an investigative piece that began as an investigative piece. He went into the world of, of pickup artists, the secret societies of these men who have an angle in the system and, and, you know, basically, you know, I guess the idea is to have sex with the women. Now, there's a lot of wrong about this whole idea and there was a lot of flack, but, you know, it kind of took Neil in a direction he didn't really anticipate and moved him through a world and through a series of behaviors that he is not necessarily proud of. Now, you have to understand, I met Neil when he was this very quiet, Neveshi Jewish writer hanging around the alternative comedy scene back in the early nineties or mid nineties.

And when I heard he written that book, I was like, Oh, is that the same fucking guy? How is that the same guy? What did he be? How did that guy come on?

So now he's written a new book called the, uh, the truth, which is basically, I believe his recovery from the game that whatever, you know, he went through emotionally and sexually and personality wise through getting sucked into the game. It is, it is hit the wall. And now, uh, and now he has this new bit, this new book called, uh, the truth, an uncomfortable book about relationships. And I have a very candid, intense, loaded conversation with Neil who, uh, who knows some things about me in the past.

And, you know, has his experience of what I was like back in, they interviewed me actually for a piece of his writing back in the mid nineties, but also just sort of moving through what he learned about relationships and himself in the process of, uh, of writing this newest book. I was very excited to talk to him and it was a very intense conversation. So look forward to that coming around the bend here. So I've been in Albuquerque, my hometown for a couple of days.

As some, you know, I was up in Santa Fe enjoying the spa relaxation life. And we come down to Albuquerque. Now, as some, you know, I grew up here, born in New Jersey, moved to Alaska, Albuquerque, 71, 72, started here in third grade. My life began in Albuquerque, New Mexico.

So I chose to do something that I don't usually do. I mean, I see a couple of people I know from, uh, when I grew up, uh, Dave Kleinfeld Devin Jackson, a couple of people, Sam Howard, I see some friends that, you know, that I kept in contact with for the last 40 years, 35 years. And, uh, but I never really did the, um, let's go look at the elementary school. Let's go look at the first house I lived in when we moved here.

Let's go do that. Let me drag my girlfriend through some sort of, this is your life episode where I sit in front of structures and try to connect emotionally and, and memory wise with my past. And what I sort of learned was I learned something about myself. What memories do you have as a person?

Because those are sort of dictate, or at least it should be a window in how your brain works. Are the memories that you hold onto the shitty ones? Or are they like, wow, that was the best time of my life? Or I remember that one time I almost lost my finger.

You're like, what kind of person are you? Are you like, I remember that one time that my, you know, the car almost, or are you the person sort of like, oh, that was the best thing that ever happened to me. As you can imagine, I tend towards the finger loss type of memories, but not so much. They still reveal things, you know?

I mean, I went, I went to my elementary school where I went from third to fifth grade and, uh, and then moved to a private institution. Um, the groovy hipster sort of hippie private school for fifth and sixth grade, but I remember third and fourth grade, but there's weird memories that happen. I'm just sitting there, I'm looking at this playground where I sort of wandered. I walked down the street.

It was right at the end of my block, March 20 elementary, but I remember walking down to school and the memories that sort of flooded back. There was a couple. One of them was, I remember spending time during recess and helping the, um, special needs kids. Um, I, I just remember doing that.

I remember there was this very profound moment where a severely mentally challenged guy who I was playing football with, you know, tackled me with a force and energy that was astounding and made me cry, but he couldn't have been more excited about it. It's just, I don't know what I learned in that moment, but it was, it was something about, uh, being a person and the sort of, um, the sort of differences in minds. And I kept, I kept working with them and I go over there and play with them and, uh, and get them laughing. So that was sort of one of my first sort of, uh, gigs as an entertainer and decent person was, um, helping the, uh, intellectually mentally challenged have a fun recess.

I remember that. I remember breaking my leg because my dad adjusted my bindings too tight and having a full leg cast and not being able to go to lunch. And my girlfriend in fourth grade, Elizabeth, used to come and eat lunch with me alone in the room. That's sort of a nice memory.

It'd be nice without the broken leg, but whatever. I remember I had a roadrunner lunchbox, which I thought was stupid. And one day, you know, the other kids had better lunchboxes. I don't even know what kind I really wanted, but I remember I kicked it all the way home until it just broke and the lid broke off.

And I told my mother, I told my mother, the big kids got me. The big kids did this to my roadrunner lunchbox. That was their sole focus. Uh, she didn't buy it and I ended up never having another lunchbox.

Just brown bagging it. So those were the lessons in elementary school. Pretty exciting stuff, right folks? Right?

And then we went to my old house, very few memories in the old house. I have some, trying to mow the lawn, uh, but I didn't understand how to mow the lawn that you had to do in lines. I just kind of randomly mowed the lawn around in a circle until my neighbor Gary said he got to m record. I remember, um, telling the Latino, uh, made that my cleaning lady that my parents had hired, um, who did not speak any English that, uh, she was using the wrong detergent in the dishwasher and she needed to use dish soap.

And then we, um, we had a kitchen full of about a foot of foam and bubbles and that was not a good day for her or me, but I copped to it. I guess the bottom line is it's good to be home. It was good to see a couple of old friends. Uh, I feel very comfortable here, but, uh, sometimes when I come out here with people, I don't always know, like, like it's overly emotional.

There's no way you're not going to get a little tweaked out revisiting your childhood and wondering and then seeing people that you knew back then now who were your friends in second grade, third grade, and now we're 52, 53 years old. It's hard. There's a, there's a, there's a, there's beauty to it, but there's also a little bit of a heartbreak to it. Like, Hey, we're still alive.

We're doing okay. But man, you know, if I don't see you for a couple of years, one of us might be using a cane. I don't know, man. It's a little heavy, but I guess this is what life is.

Uh, season three of Marin premieres on Netflix today. Today, if today's the 28th, this is the day you can watch season three of my IFC show Marin on Netflix. It's a good season. It's very exciting.

It'll set you up for the season we're about to do. It gets pretty heavy at the end. Enjoy it. Watch it.

It's your time to do that. All right. So right now, let's go to my conversation with Neil Strauss. His book, The Truth, An Uncomfortable Book About Relationships is available now.

And this is a, this is an intense conversation. So I hope you dig it. I said, I don't know what you think you're doing down there below 14th street, but it doesn't mean it. But that was that piece.

There was a picture of me, Ross Broccoli and Jeff Ross. That's it. That's it. In the piece.

Yeah. And that was the big, uh, you know, that was put it on the map. Yeah. All the comedy was on the map because of Neil Strauss.

And I remember I came to the thing, you're like, this is the guy who ruined the scene. You single me out. I did? Yeah.

You came to the show after that? Yeah. But I remember we talked and I remember talking to you and I, and you were kind of like, you were, you know, you barely could talk for some, you know, you sort of like. So true.

I was incredibly, just so nervous. Yeah. You were very nervous. And, um, and then like, I remember what was the first big ghost writing job you had?

Was it Manson? Yeah. I heard like, you know, like, uh, you know, Neil Strauss wrote this, this huge book. I'm like, that fucking guy.

That guy can't even talk. I think, I think it was disarming. They had nothing to fear for me. It was very disarming.

What is that process of ghost writing? How does that work? Oh, it's the best. You just hang out in their world as much as you can.

Yeah. And absorb as much of their life as you can. And then when they're ready, you talk. So sometimes after a show, Manson would be doing a bunch of kind of, he'd want to do a bunch of coke and then talk all night.

Right. Right. Or other times, you just sort of embed yourself in your world and wait for those moments to serve the moment. So for example, he, uh, he'd have his bodyguard guard the bathroom door while he'd get coke in the bathroom.

So you'd watch that and that would become a little detail that would inform the story. And did he put all that in? Yeah. I wouldn't write a book with someone if they had anything to hold back.

Oh, really? Yeah. That's the rule. So, but you don't get final edit.

You just get an agreement. Yeah, you get an agreement, but I also have, I make some agreements up front. So if you're going to take anything out, you have to put something better back in. That's a little broad, but it usually works?

It usually works. And also I try to write it well enough that even if they're resistant, when they tell me, they read it, they're like, oh, this has to stay. And you were factual? Yeah, always.

Yeah. The only thing you change is stuff for legal reasons. Right, right. So you got to sit there and watch Marilyn Manson do coke a lot.

A lot of coke. And then build that. And home movies. It was fun because as a journalist, people only show you exactly what they want to show you.

Right, right, right. When they know they have approval, they show you everything. So when they're on coke, you get more than you hope for them. Yeah, more than you hope for them.

Some nights, it's really weird. Rock stars are so, here's the crazy thing. You might call the interview and everybody seems so busy. Yeah, yeah.

But most of their life, they're completely bored doing nothing. Yeah, yeah. So I remember some nights, we'd be bored, and he dressed up in this giant chicken outfit, and we'd go down Sunset Boulevard, and he'd chase people in chicken suits. For no reason.

For no reason, no one would know the giant chicken that just chased them. And he's all jacked up on blow? Yeah. Yeah, or we'd have like four, I don't remember those DVDs or videos back then, but we'd watch like four movies in like ten minutes.

Oh, just fast forward. Yeah, exactly. Now, when you do that stuff, did you do blow with him? You know, the great question.

So my first night out with him, he had this CD case, which is what you did. So, and he said, do the dust. And I wasn't sure if it was a Coke or an angel dust. I don't know.

I was kind of naive. But I wanted to fit in, I wanted to fit in, I wanted to not make him feel weird. So I did the move where I kind of bent down, but I kind of blew it a little bit to get it off the train, look up my nose, and went on the floor. It was a mess.

And you knew that, right? He was like, what are you doing? Yeah, yeah. You're like, I'll do this.

It was a party fall. But eventually, yeah, but eventually, like, I would do enough. I would do a little bit. It was like coffee.

It was like coffee. Oh, so you didn't do too much to where you got. Yeah, because I imagine you strike me as a, well, I don't know if it's introverted, but slightly neurotic. I can't imagine you in a panic situation.

Yeah, totally neurotic. I'm not going to be like psychedelics. Those are the worst. So, but I remember one night I was doing a little bit more with them, and I noticed I was losing my temper more often.

I would lose my, I would be temperament, I would be a little edgy. So I went to the guys, I'm like, you know what? I've been losing my temper a lot. I don't think maybe it's because of the Coke or something.

And one of the guys looks at me and he goes, that's the best part. Yeah. And that was the last night. They were using you as a clown.

They were. They were. I remember like a high point in my maturity came after I'd kind of done the game and went over to Manson's birthday party and he had a giant sperm outfit and he said, we'd dress up in a sperm outfit and dance around. And I said, no.

And that was like a big moment for me that I wasn't there a clown anymore. Oh, look at you speaking up for yourself. Exactly. I will not put the sperm outfit on.

So after that, you did the Jameson book? Yeah, after that, I did the Motley Crue book. Right. And by the way, we've got to go back at some point to the launch, so I want to talk about my impressions of you back there as well.

Let's start there because once you did the Manson book, I was so amazed and slightly resentful that somehow or another, this mousy little fuck had figured out a way to make it. I really had no idea I would be one of the people you presented. I'm proud to be amongst the small, the powerful contingent. Well, I always liked you, but there's always a slight distress for journalists in general, so maybe at that time, I don't know why I would have thought you ruined it, but maybe I thought it because you brought attention to it because it did get quite overwhelming after that.

There were lines out the door and it became a little crazy. But I don't think I really resented you. I was just sort of amazed that you'd figured this thing out. I never know what a writer's trajectory is.

I don't know that I would have understood music journalists and that doing what you do is actually a good call and a good way during a living and also continue writing. To do those type of ghostwriting things, I thought it was pretty impressive. I probably just presented you because of your success. Right, exactly.

I remember you had hair and you had a little beard and wireframe glasses, not as bold as the glasses you have now. The confidence you're exuding with your new frames. Exactly. What were your impressions?

I remember going to that scene, you were like the master. You see yourself as the master of that scene because you hosted the whole show. Most of them. I think so.

A lot of them, I guess. And I remember after I did this story, I decided I got to go into comedy seeing this. And you talk about this all the time, so I'm going to go over what it is. But so many incredible people were there.

What you were doing was so enjoyable. I never might stand-up comedy until I went to the Luma Lounge and saw the shows. And I was covering music. I thought, I wasn't in your time, this is going to cover comedy.

There are all these incredible, talented people. And I got so obsessed I did an article afterward where I went undercover for six months to try and make it as a comic. And I did one show at Luna. That was kind of the highlight of it.

And I remember I was looking over my notes before I came here. And I said, you know, I'm terrified because in one phrase, like Mark Maron could eviscerate me. You know? And that was my biggest fear.

I said, I know I can do this. I know I got to handle. This is when you were going to Luna. Yeah, this is when I was doing that one show.

I was wearing a phrase. Was I even there? You were there. You were hosting.

And I brought you up. Yeah. Well, that would have made me mad at you. How'd you do?

I did fine. I got laughs, was fine, and bomb. Yeah. Oh, well, that's good.

I don't remember that article, though. I'll get it to you. Yeah. I kind of went over to the whole, because I realized it was just the hardest way to make it in any kind of form of entertainment is comedy, because you're really used by the clubs who just usually make money at pre-shows, and it was fascinating.

You had this quality, then, that you could kind of zealig a little bit, and you were willing to take some risks in sort of a gonzo fashion to get your story. Right. So let's go through, like, what did you learn from the Manson experience? Sure.

And, yes, from the Manson, I think he really taught me how to write in a lot of ways, in the sense that it had to be interesting. You didn't have to tell everything, just tell the interesting parts. He was also a writer, so he would, of all people I worked with, he would call me up and suggest phrases, because he always thinks the best writer wrote it all. Right.

But he called me up, and he's like, I just thought of this metaphor, like the blades of brass squished round by the wheels of lawn chair furniture. Uh-huh. And I'd be like, okay, I'll get in there. Somewhere.

I'll get in there. Thanks for your contribution. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I'm trying to edit nine hours of Coke talk.

Right, exactly. Pretty much it. And then there was, like, he had this section called The Rules for Cheating, when it's not cheating, doesn't count. So he might call from Spain and say, well, here's the reason why it's not cheating.

It's not cheating. If you have sex with her in another country, then you call your girlfriend in the States before the time zone has caught up. Well, that's good. Because that means it hasn't happened yet.

So it's okay. Or he'd call from South America and say, if she has a tattoo, if you want her, it's just common courtesy to have sex with her. And is he still with the woman he was cheating on? No, no, he's going through medicine.

Well, yeah, that must have planted in your head, given the future that became you. I imagine that once you took the shit from rock and roll into Jenna Jameson's life, that must have had some impact on what became your future. Yeah, well, I think all along I was trying to put myself on the list. way of sex so I can have some, right?

So with Motley Crue, I just thought if I can go on the road with Motley Crue, I'm going to finally get sex. So you had no game? No game. And literally, I mean, I really...

I still can't imagine you having games. Right, thank you. It's the guy who's under the radar. That's the best, but thank you.

I mean, I don't quite came in, I look like that game. That's probably my way to imagine. So I go backstage and there'll be a road case and get a stack of backstage passages in the show. And I kind of hand them out to women.

Right. And then they say thank you. And then they go try to fuck this. Yeah, you were still a clown, weren't you?

Yeah, pretty much. You go find the hottest women and be like, hey, you want to come backstage? And they're like, yeah, thank you, loser. Yeah, exactly.

But also, I don't want to be the dick who's like, okay, you get this. Want me? Right, yeah. You never did that.

I could never do that. Could you? No, no, no. I can't, no.

I can't do it. I want to give you no pleasure in it. I feel like such a shit. I have a very hard time with it.

I require somewhat of a slightly deeper connection than just using somebody to masturbate with or to complete objectification. I've never been that good at it. I need to feel like we're connecting somehow. Yeah, that's a nice thing, right?

It is a nice thing, but that can be problematic too because if you need that and you find it, but then right afterwards you're still sort of like, no, I guess I'm done. Right. And you've connected in that way with another person. It doesn't necessarily mean it's lasting.

And I think the results could be worse if the emotions are felt. What do you mean by that the results could be worse if the emotions are felt? Well, I mean, because there's, I guess there's some guys that you would know better that really just see the conquest and the sex maybe you can find it with those people. But, you know, like, I know you've had some experience with swinging communities and whatnot, but in my experience swingers are usually kind of just lumpy and game.

You know, just kind of like... I might know it's different but I'll play it later. Well, yeah, I'm sure you're right. Lumpy and game.

Swinging handbook, lumpy and game. But, no, I just found that like, you know, it's very hard for me to just completely sexualize and it becomes a little more confusing like that. You know, I'm totally asking an inappropriate question which is I was thinking the eating issues, the scene issues, the anger, all those issues. I thought, and I don't know if you've written about this or talked about it, but I thought it must play on your sex life in some way where you wanted some submission, dominant stuff.

Well, I'm still sort of figuring some of that stuff out. The sex issues, you know, in codependency and sort of love addiction and I know compulsive sex addicts and I know porn addicts and I know guys that have... I've dabbled in all that stuff but it never made my life unmanageable which is really the determining factor in deciding that. But I understand it.

So, yeah, sure, if you have an addictive personality it's going to find its way to whatever it is. It's going to have a preference but if you deny it that you'll find the other one. I was thinking more separate from addiction stuff but there may be a dead impression. I'm so curious though with, you know, there's a lot of that the shame that you have and there's the anger and I feel like does that come in some odd way?

I don't know that I've explored it thoroughly. There's parts of me that think maybe I should explore that a little bit but then there's a fear of that. Well, then do I want to become that guy? You know what I mean?

Like, you know, I'm okay with sex. Could it be amazing if I did a little more if I found somebody who was willing to get choked out or spank around a bit? Maybe. But then, like, you know, it's a slippery slope, right?

I think it's not what you're doing it's why you're doing it. You know, if you are... No, but you're backloading that. Okay, tell me.

But I mean, when you're in it that, you know, if you keep raising the stakes of fulfilling your desire and opening your mind or your experience that you're eventually going to hit a wall if you have an addictive personality. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, it's like some people can have a drink or try a drug and it's fine. Other people, it's going to be a slippery slope and they're going to go off the edge.

Well, let's go back to... Well, no, we're going to get there. So, okay, so you're a dweeby guy who's not great at talking to women and now you've got to follow Janet Jameson around. Yeah, and again, I said, it's definitely worth Janet Jameson.

You must have gotten something. Nothing, nothing. Not from her, but from someone else. I remember being a limo and there were all these other porn stars and they're all making out.

I just ended up watching them thinking, how do I get on this? I didn't know how to get in on it. I didn't even know how to make out. They were all just kind of making out.

I was like, oh, I want to get my male energy over their female. Oh, so you were like immediately codependent to the situation. Yeah, yeah. It's called pathological accommodation where you're like, so don't want anyone else uncomfortable so you just put yourself in the back.

Just disappear. Yeah, exactly. You're an invisible guy. Yeah, which is the recipe for being a journalist, right?

Yeah, absolutely. But what was your experience in the porn life? What did you find out about porn? You know, so first of all, it was fascinating because again, this is not a surprise, but we get together and talk and we're all having, you know, just so many abuse stories.

I know it's the cliche and people try to pretend like it's not, but for example, Janet Jameson would do interviews with Howard Stern and you must have had some kind of abuse in your background. She'd say no, never. But of course, when we talked, she did, she didn't want to be that cliche. So that was really a common story.

So publicly, a lot of them would not cop to it, but privately it was there. Yeah, because they didn't want to be that cliche. There's something about the image of the sexual object, which is their job, as not necessarily, of having some power and not being a victim. Right, right.

And I suppose it would ruin the fantasy for guys if they, if you thought about that. And the funny thing too, again, it was kind of like, she was the number one porn star at the time, so I'd walk around the airport and think, man, all these guys probably masturbate. Sure. I one time went up to a porn star and I didn't know quite how to do it.

I don't remember which one it was, but it was before Jen. It was early on when I would watch it. And I was never a guy who rented porn, so I'd see clips in this and that or get these DVDs or whatever. But there was one that, I forget her fucking name, but I saw her at the airport with her husband, who was also in it or her guardian or whatever.

And I had to say something. And all I came up with was like, hey, I really like your work. Which is just saying like, I'm asking me to do that. You can't say like, God, when you take it in your mouth and then put it, you can't like do it in detail.

I guess you could because they certainly feel that stuff all the time. Well, it's funny because one of those in my life is sitting with her and she's showing a movie and forwarding past the sex to show me the acting. No. Swear to God.

Was she proud of it? Yeah, she was proud of it. She thought it was really good. It's really a sweet thing.

Was it good? Yeah. I mean, was it good? Good enough.

And then I got to get when I do the books because I really immerse myself with Manson and I playing on one of his albums. And with her, I decided they wanted me to write a porn script for her. So I based it on Ambrose Fears short story, which nobody knows I was going to watch it. I won the AVN for like best video or best Oh, really?

Yes. I felt like, Did you get one? No, awesome though, right? They don't give writers awards?

They don't give us the writers. No, I always knew I had a backup career. Of course he did. A lot of dudes do that.

Michael Bloomfield, the amazing guitar player, was strung out on heroin. He used to do Mitchell Brothers soundtracks. Did Jerry Stahl do that stuff too? I'm sure he did.

Did he script pornos? I don't know if he did. I'll ask him. We can call him later.

I mean, he's done just about everything. I was safe to assume that was probably part of his story. All right, so here was the big shocker. So when the game comes, I had it, I was looking for it.

I don't know what happened. But what I heard was, I saw the book and I got what it was and I was like, all right, Neil's doing another investigative thing. But then I got started hearing bits and pieces of like, no, no, he's like, he's out there speaking. Like he runs workshops.

I'm like, whoa, wait, wait, Neil Strauss? Neil Strauss. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, he's like this guy, like this pussy magnet, this pickup artist. He's running these workshops and he lives in a mansion in Malibu and there's women all around.

I wasn't just sort of detached. Well, so you did because this is like what you've been waiting for. Basically like Molly Crue can do it, James can do it, these kind of nerdy, weirdly dressed guys somehow. Yeah, and you were, I imagine, revered and demonized?

Yeah, it's a weird, I still don't know, even 10 years ago just got a call from Nightline and they wanted to do a piece on, they want to write about this pickup workshop and talk to him. No, this book's 10 years old, I don't want to talk about it. It's just, it doesn't go away. Well, what happened?

Like, you know, walk me through it, like, you know, not assuming I read the book. Walk me through it like a slaw pitch. Yes, my name is Neil Strauss and I'm a sex addict. What happened?

What was it like? What happened? What's it like now, Neil? The funny thing, at my first meeting, there was a woman that I thought was kind of attractive so I don't want to say it was a sex addict that might be my chances.

Yeah, of course. You're not a one with that. So what happened was the book I already did a Molly Crue book with called me up and he said, hey, I found out there's a community of guys online. They don't have money, looks, or fame and they're exchanging this knowledge on how to meet, attract, seduce women.

They've got it kind of figured out to the science. He's like, I wanted to take their information and put it into a how-to book for me. I said, listen, I'm a serious writer. It's not something I'm interested in but can you give me the URL?

And so I started reading the stuff and there were all these posts with guys with weird names with mystery and form handling and candor, all these weird names but they had to describe like blow by blow everything and I'm like, oh my God, this is it. Because when I read the New York Times I go to these shows, concerts, you go to every concert and try to meet these women and I have tickets to the next school concert and they come with me and I just always end up so I felt like these guys had the secrets to finally Yeah, you were going to get some. And then you hadn't had a girlfriend or anything? I know, I would do it.

If I slept with someone I would try to make them my girlfriend so I could keep staying with somebody for a few years and not be so lonely. It would be like a couple of years dry spell between that. So you go into this and you see these guys got the answer so you pitch a piece of a book where you're going to be among them. No, I didn't dare tell anyone that was into it.

So this is your highbrow man, your New York Times. Right, exactly. And so what I did was I found out that one that's got a guy named in this first workshop. And the workshop is you meet two out in Quote the Field in a club or a bar and he shows you how to approach women and then has you do it.

How many guys are involved in this? When you go to a workshop is it like there's 20 guys sitting at the end of a bar while this one guy goes watch? It was like six guys. Some of them now are like 20 guys so the whole thing's insanely weird.

So it was $600 or $500 I forget, we put the money in an envelope terrified to meet this guy and terrified that we won't find out how to work for the New York Times. And then I remember we were at the Standard was a cool place at the bar there and Scott Baio was there with this beautiful woman and he walked in started doing magic tricks and the next thing I know Scott Baio turns to me and goes is this a magic trick because he's stealing my girlfriend? I'm like whoa this is amazing this guy can walk I just don't know who to talk to when he's my hero this guy's walking in stealing a celebrity's girlfriend and I'm like that was it I was done. Who was the magic trick?

Mystery was? The coke did nothing for me watching Mystery do this thing was my coke. He was the one doing magic tricks? Because that was his way in he's like okay Yeah but he doesn't like look what I can do he'll be talking oh it's kind of interesting you know it's kind of like this and he would do it in a way that wasn't braggy is he an attractive guy this guy?

It depends on how you see him he's like six feet tall but it's funny that we go to looks I don't think it has anything to do with him No no of course not but like you know would you classify him as like a guy who was once like you is this like the back of a comic book is it like Charles Atlas kicks in in your face? He's super nerdy like if he's not going out and putting on the whole show it's sort of like long greasy hair and ponytail computer nerd guy then he'd go out and really dress up and act all and confident and become that other guy because that was an illusion so he asked you to be his wingman again I got so caught up and it's ridiculous to talk about so why do you feel ashamed of it? Yes I really do I mean it's embarrassing and my biggest opportunity in life was not when John Farrell of the New York Times called me and said would you write for us it was a mystery after he was wingman but obviously it spoke to some deep need in time to find a really good acceptance Well there's nothing like getting sex is exciting and it means a lot Yes and so then we started traveling around the world doing workshops and eventually started to get good at it and I started to find all the other guys who I read about in that community and kind of befriend them all and learn their different tips and tricks and I guess I think the surreal thing happened was about maybe like a year and a half or two years into it they did a survey in this weird world of pick-up artists of the top pick-up artists and I was number one and this was number two a student has to pass the master oh really it's such a weird book such a fascinating bizarre story so Grasshopper was going to go out to the West on his own now and at some point before this I realized I'm going to be so insane I've got to write about this and it's got to be a book and you pitched the book or you wrote it on spec no I published it with this woman Judith Regan who's fantastic oh yeah yeah I think I know she's great she's like the Medici of publishers so I would just sit with her half investigative journalism the game was exactly but you were in over your head there's a little kind of a downy grass where I didn't know my journalist I love that movie I think it's an unsung movie I think it's a great movie so alright so you're in and now you're the number one guy right and now how much are you getting late I mean I remember like my birthday I don't know what to brag about as unseemly no you can maybe not frame it as bragging but like at my lowest there we go that's a humble brag right I think it was such that you would sort of decide each night am I going to call someone over or go out with someone I've met or I'm going to go out and meet new people or it was weird it was like a skill set you would work on it wasn't enough to have sex it was like okay how can I kind of get a threesome into a science we'd work through all this stuff and at this point we're all living in a house too we're all living in a house I just did an article on Courtney Love she moved into the house so we had a house with maybe six pick up artists and Courtney Love what? yeah it sounds like a reality show and what was she doing?

she like I think she was having money issues and hiding from paparazzi and she lived with us and so these guys would be in the living room doing a pick up workshop and Courtney Love would come careening through topless and for some guys that was the first sight but did you get the sense that any of them were really looking for relationships or they were just looking I mean I guess that's where it got sort of blurry for you is that you somehow annihilated your ability or your capacity on top of whatever psychological issues that you come to grips with in this new book The Truth you sort of annihilated the ability to have any sense of what that would be I think so and I think when you're in it and when no one was like nobody just wanted to have sex with women for the rest of their lives very few people people want to have a relationship they want to be able to pick the person and choose the person nobody was like we want to pick up artists and just have one night stand that was a weird breed of person yeah even when I was doing it I was like I just want to meet someone I'm really attracted to them to be able to not blow it so it was never like I'm not a relationship but wait there's a big leap between that you know saying when I meet the one that I want they're not going to blow it and like what's the craft of threesomes yes exactly it was like I want to do that a little bit later because I'm having fun right now but the big divide was like a divide existing in your mind between men and women so the real problems with it were objectification obviously and manipulation right so in other words if I saw a woman their word was Sarging so Sarging they had their own language so if I saw a woman like I would have to Sarging I could be a business meeting and I would perform it all what does that mean? Sarging was like going out to like pick up or seduce. The approach, the first step. I think Sarge was just going out to the whole thing with Sarge, the seduction process.

You're going out to Sarge, right. So you at some point realized in the midst of all this living in a house full of guys figuring out how to get women that you might not be respecting women. I love that. It took me longer.

It's a funny thing about writing a book because you read it and you realize pretty early on. But for sure, it all combusted even within the book. All these fake alpha males because you're trying to be an alpha male and it's nothing worse than anyone who sees the world as alpha male. So all these fake alpha males living in a house are fighting with each other.

The whole thing became just the immaturity of it. Sounds like you guys underestimated the power of women. I think we underestimated your own vulnerability. Yeah, your own vulnerability and that somehow you're going to somehow become a better person through whatever.

It wasn't really a better person or just a winning person in the eyes of what masculinity has been defined as. That's great. That's great. Thank you.

I love this. It's a nuanced world and that's exactly what it is and that's exactly the problem with it. Yeah. Well, so what did your bottom look like?

I think the bottom for me was just living in that house all the guys fighting each other one guy trying to commit suicide. I met somebody actually was in Courtney Love's van who I really had this huge crush on and I had to sort of get real to have a real relationship with her and she was like she said the wiseest words even though Mark Barron doesn't think so she was like you're cool all along you didn't need these guys to show you anything. No, I have no issue with you. I'm just judging you in the context of how you saw yourself in a way.

It's so true. And the weird thing is yeah, I bust your balls a little bit but you and I are more alike than we are different. Because I sort of process through a lot of this stuff in terms of I did a bit on it in my last special about what kind of man am I really? Because you judge yourself against what you think they're alpha guys and you're insecure in certain ways and even if you do find somebody that loves you for who you are that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to make you feel better about yourself it could be the worst thing in the world because then you're sort of like I don't like me how can you like me and then you fucking implode that thing.

And people are attached to their own little opinion of themselves that's something rocks that for some reason they want to hold on to. For some reason it's who you are. For whatever reason it's the most consistent disposition you know. And it happened a long time ago because of some emotional deprivation that was done on behalf of your parents.

And that's exactly what with a retrospect now that I realize what the game was was just the game was the overbearing dominant you know neurotic mom having a total fear of women and feeling like I need to have some sort of power control over the situation so it had nothing to do with sex it's just about self esteem and fear. But sex is good. Like the truth of the matter is no matter what your psychological issues are like when you do get to have sex there's still very little difference between that immediate experience when it's happening from however old you are now to when you were 13. I mean the stakes might be higher it might be weirder than you might have thought it might not be the best situation but that moment where you're like I'm having sex that's pretty constant.

Right. I mean like that's what you're not heroin. That's fine. In the very moment when the needle enters your arm you feel a rush go to your heart that feels good.

That's right. Oh yeah I guess that's true and I sort of stepped out of the protection model is that you know it can it does eventually stop working and you hate yourself. And you're just having sex it's pleasurable and it's nice and it feels good and you enjoy people that's great but you're doing it to fill some hole that's the issue if you're doing it to fill some hole inside or just because you like it. Right.

Yeah you know it's weird I don't know ultimately how clear I am on all this stuff because I still deal with this stuff all the time I'm in a relationship now and I've not been able to sustain a relationship I don't have children I've definitely had you know sexual issues and emotional issues for my entire life it's the one part of my life which is you know still tricky and difficult even with self-awareness and some practical work you know but it really does come down to cognitive behavior you know cognitive choices after a certain point. You want to talk about what I learned because that's what I'm listening to you right there. But what I want to like make sure everyone understands is that the game sold millions of books you know it propelled you into a reluctantly into a career that you probably didn't see that you were going to have it characterized you culturally in a very specific way that some people might find hucksterish other people might find obnoxious but there was enough men out there that thought you know you were you know a portal to some wizardry necessary to them that it validated you and so in retrospect even though we have the truth here the new book you know you did make a deal with the devil. Well I'll see the way I kind of see it but go ahead.

No but I mean like now you know you're negotiating your way out through personal enlightenment. That's not the way I see it but I see that narrative. Okay. And maybe it is right.

I'll think it through. The way I kind of see it was but it was weird so when the game came out I just thought it's just a weird it's a book I wrote about it's like any other book and I remember my phone started ringing that day with guys calling like hey there's this one girl I met can you help me literally the day it came out. What was the next book? The next book was I'm trying to remember.

So you were out? Oh I was going to do a graphic novel with this Bernard Chang illustrator. Yeah so I was out and then these guys came up to me and they said hey you should and I didn't really have a website no website address and these guys came up to me and they said you should they were marketers and you should do this teaching thing. Like the manual.

Right. I was really reluctant and I jumped through a bunch of hoops and said it's not what I did and eventually I let them kind of take over and did it. Oh right so it wasn't your fault at all. It wasn't my fault at all but I remember the day it sold out in half an hour.

The manual. What was it called? The game? No no rules of the game.

The rules of the game was like it's weird. My publisher said let's do this how-to thing. I'm not a storyteller. It's weird.

I just totally resisted. It's almost compartmentalized that side of my life. Yeah you have compartmentalized the actual Faustian deal. Yes.

So I felt like I said I'll do this how-to but half I can do stories and half will be how-to people. I think it's less. Show me my hypocrisy. Throw it in my face.

It's not hypocrisy. It was how you can live with yourself. It's not hypocrisy. I can't explain it.

What I'm hearing is like it's not really what I do I don't know. It's probably all right. I don't fucking know. You're so right.

You trick yourself into these things. Of course. I mean that's how selling out works for people with integrity. You have to.

But whether or not you saw the profit end of it anyways like when you are and I've said this before you don't really make big money until you make someone else big money and you were in that position. Like your publisher knew. They all knew. The marketers and the publisher they knew it was almost like a guarantee.

You're so right. It really is a forking path. I think about it all the time. You're so right.

There's a book called Like Is Elsewhere by Belong Candera and this guy has a choice between becoming a total hack Okay I'll do this stuff but I'm still a serious writer in journals I'm still writing for Rolling Stone it doesn't count that I do this stuff. So this book this new book the truth is this is your redemption. I don't think of it that way. I hate to think of it that way because I don't think it maybe you're right maybe you have a better perspective.

No I don't have any perspective but you had a cathartic existential crisis of self around where you were in the world and also you hit a personal wall and bottom where you realized that you were empty and your integrity had been drained from this fucking thing that you know the sex addiction and the publishing industry and your requirements and what was required of you and this is your sort of like I have to redeem myself for myself. Yes this I gotta tell you this is the best narrative because I'm not saying myself you see it better but there's a press narrative it's totally not true this is a I really want to listen back you understand this book better than I am. No because like when you are consumed and you know not necessarily greed but when you're consumed in something that is as powerful as sex addiction and it's your bread and butter. Yes because when I was in rehab they said everyone was adding up what did sex addictions cost them you know they cost my home and you're like they got me my home and I spent a quarter million on prostitutes and a quarter million on a book you know you were not the sympathetic case at the sex addiction in such a bad place you guys Exactly Alright so okay so the rules of the game come out and now you're overwhelmed I would imagine with that type of notoriety and I imagine it's quite conflicting and also painful I would assume Yeah it's weird I sort of became yeah I would read about myself and be like is that I sort of became I just feel like the game What was your mother saying?

My mother my mother was cool with everything until I went to sex addiction we had to get better then she had problems with stuff Oh really because you lost control I don't understand No Because then you were identified as a sex addict I think she really said like so people have affairs big deal like no but you know Did she read the book? No the last one I think she had no problem with having casual sex the whole problem was she didn't want me having relationships So the whole She didn't know that She didn't know that but she wanted her relationship with me to be the primary one in my life This is what you learned through your recovery Right Okay so what happened Recovery sounds like I hate Okay this is what happened No recovery is fine but it's got so many Recovery is a fine word Well no let's unload it from what it means in the context of psychological treatment The way I see this is when I found out what's all the programming that I'm operating on and how can I change that What essentially was it in your childhood that created the emotional deprivation that made you seek self-completion through these various ways that were dangerous Exactly Great way to say it Good So what did happen You met the girl from Hole or from her new band And then we had a relationship of course in my mind she was turning into my mom so I had to break up with her but in reality I was probably just making her Have you read the fantasy bond? Yes Great So when you say turning into her whether you projected her or not because you end up in that same relationship every time one way or the other Because whatever you have that interfaces with what they have is exactly what you grew up with or what drives you into the pathological self-parenting that creates the self-loathing There's a line in the book that says when it's about at first sight running the other direction and all that's happened is your child your wounds have met their wounds Yeah, trauma bonding Yeah, trauma bonding What were those attributes? In terms of identifying the emotional manipulation of your mother what was it?

Right, I'll never forget like there's that moment we life change and maybe they quit on a mystery picking up Scott Bale's girlfriend which again is the most pathetic epiphany in the world is I was sort of right? That was the moment my life change when mystery picked up Scott Bale's girlfriend Oh boy, you can tell your grandkids that Exactly So I was sort of in I was really simple about the whole rehab section thing when I checked in they said that anyone who masturbates is a sex addict everyone who watches porn is a sex addict there's some groups not this one that say anyone has premarital sex is a sex addict so basically everyone listening would be a sex addict that's someone's definition Well culturally it's actually this very weird and unspoken malignancy that the access to pornography is completely annihilating millions of people's ability to maintain intimacy I believe that Right You? I think that they're sort of the swing states of compulsion that like if you already have that compulsion it's really easy to dive into it Right, but that's what I mean is access It was better when you had to go to the gross store Right But you still vaccinate just as much that one magazine That's fine but still that seems better I mean, yeah versus channel flipping between 50 women for one orgasm It's insane It's fucking nuts Yeah, I mean I track my entire perception of sex through seeing porn too young and it fucking hobbled me, man What did you see that did that? When I was like 14 we found a Betamax of Deep Throat and the opening of Misty Beethoven Right And when I was 15 we actually had fake IDs and went to porn theaters but the assumption at that age especially for a socially awkward sexually awkward kid that I was was that that's the way it's done Right And anything below that or that doesn't happen that way is not good sex So, you know I was fucked from the get-go Yeah, because they call it as your attraction template like it sets a template in your mind for what sex is supposed to be like your first experience mold you create those neural connections that don't exist Right So you did a lot of research Yeah, it's fascinating It's all in the truth You went scientific you went spiritual you went cognitive you went straight up psychological Yeah, and entered all these alternative communities of alternate relationships So the moment my life kind of changed was I was sitting there really being cynical about this with this kind of catheter therapist who didn't want men to have any sex at all You projected that Yes And she started you do something called a timeline which is all the high points all the big moments of your life and she looked at it and she saw this pattern and she said you know why you can't be in a relationship I'm like, no and she goes because your mom wants to be in a relationship with you and I just felt this cold wind blue and it seemed so preposterous yet something in you just sort of like recognize this Look at weasiness Yeah, and then she goes and there's a name for this and it's called emotional incest and I was like what the fuck Yeah, yeah keep talking you're helping me So the idea of this emotional incest is this is that when your parents when you're need to serve your parents' needs versus your parents' serving your needs I had the same childhood I knew that I mean I knew that because I looked at I had an emotionally absent dad like yours and a mom who's overplayed by her problems to take care of mine so it's that one clue of it is when you grow up feeling sorry for a parent What I felt was a loyalty that was unnatural a loyalty to their emotional states Exactly so their emotional needs come before yours They use you Yeah, and you're used and you just don't realize it seems normal in fact the thing about it is where something is sort of physical abuse or yelling at someone or criticizing well we know that It's like the difference it's like alcohol when you don't drink that's almost the problem but when it's vague what was your bisexual no did they hit you no it's actually more insidious and it's empowering because when your daddy's little girl or mommy's little man or you're kind of mostly smarter than them you feel empowered so it feels good so you don't even recognize it But you end up with no sense of self No sense of self Yes And in fact myself, Robert Greene who wrote The Out of Seduction Tucker Max who's kind of a frapp away writer guy we all had depressed or narcissistic moms and didn't have that sense of self Yeah, I mean I've been very aware of the project of completing myself but it wasn't until I read Firestone within the last year that because of something my therapist passively mentioned about the fantasy bond that I was not able to that one piece that I got from Firestone that blew my mind is that there's no one if you're uncomfortable because of your parents emotional abuse you don't know as a kid you assume your parents are good so there's no one to blame but yourself and that happens at a very young age so your attempt to self-parent is really is self-loathing Yeah, and there's another great book called Silently Seduced I don't know if you've read it I forget the name of the author but Silently Seduced is a book he talks about how what happens in relationships sometimes if it's true for you is you'll start taking care of their needs you get worth and value by taking care of their needs Thank you never enough and you start to build up resentment and that resentment starts to poison the relationship so you save without a sense of duty while this resentment piles up and eventually it all goes wrong.

Right. Well, no, that's happened. That codependent piece of me, like I didn't identify completely from pretty recently until I was engaged to somebody and it blew up and that was that relationship. But before that, I was sort of the other side.

I was just sort of emotionally volatile, kind of, you know, problematic person constantly in a state of contrition. And then I sort of learned to shut my mouth and then I became, you know, dramatically, like I tried to nurture a very insane relationship, you know, almost blindly thinking that the other person will change and that was a big wake-up call. Yeah, because maybe there's this idea if I can change, I can heal my child with wounds, if I change her, it's like I fix my mom and she's okay. Yeah, well, you're not thinking that way.

Unconsciously, unconsciously. I guess that's right, yeah. So, like, the most freeing thing was for me to realize, like, I was trying to run these unconscious patterns over and over and over again. And in fact, by the way, recognizing it was not enough.

Like, when I recognized it, I still blew it for, like, years until I finally said, okay, I gotta take, like, the stuff that's wrong with me and think about the cancer and just, like, attack it with every, you know, therapy possible. And also, like, I don't think you do talk therapy. Is that mostly what you do? I find the talk therapy, like, the information coming rationally through your mind and emotionally through your feelings.

It's funny, it's hard to talk about that stuff, isn't it? Is it hard to talk about it? Because I feel so passionate about it. I find that it's hard to explain that deeper.

I think we're... I'm not having a hard time understanding you. And in my life, I don't get over this therapy shit and talk about it. No, don't assume.

You still have that weird comedy thing. I might want to work on that a little more. Great. Right on.

But, no, because, like, a lot of this work I've been reluctant to do. And it's still fairly intellectual for me right now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And look, I guess because, like, I've learned to live with pain.

And I see it as sort of ground zero for me. And I, like, you know, as a comic and as somebody who, you know, is emotionally insulated a bit, except when I'm talking to strangers or people that I know are going to leave in 20 minutes like you, that, you know, my capacity to stay open and to not live in those childhood fears that, you know, are not real anymore is muted. And I think that one of the reasons I haven't done, you know, the type of, you know, almost life-saving work that you felt you had to do was because of a different type of fear. That, like, you know, this is, you know, that there is a deeply wired comfort and discomfort for me.

Yeah, I mean, I understand that. I understand that fear. And I think I had that too. I would somehow lose something instead of gaining something.

But I think you've got to do it because something has to change or something has to crack and you've got to take yourself out of your comfort zone. And there's a lot of, yeah, it was conditional, but it was more based on their own fears. There's a lot of worry on behalf of both of them. You know, what they saw as love was a sort of panic.

You were almost like an appendage and not a separate person. You were like this, you know, in moments of panic, you know, you were just part of them that they were like, you know, I've got to deal with that. My mother had, you know, had eating disorders, so her panic was mostly around my being fat. So, and so why do you have no idea what intimacy is?

None. And the inability to give or receive love. Yeah, and so this makes sense. I can connect.

This is the game to you. I can connect with people, but in the position of power, we're in my garage, I'm in the conversation, I'm going to leave later. So this is almost, it's probably why you're so good at it, because it's easier. Kind of, yeah, there's that, but it is my intimacy, right.

But like, you know, in other relationships, like, there's also the fact that, you know, people start to see you a certain way, which you experienced, and they'll want to interface with that, what they see. And you may be putting it out, but in your mind and in your heart, you're like, that ain't really me, but you're not going to do anything about it. You're going to let yourself just be taken. Right.

And that's some other horrible thing. And the other thing I imagine is that you, you can't, if you can't be calm, something's at peace, you can't, there always has to be some emergency, some danger, something about to go wrong. Yeah, like, yeah, there's definitely a drama element. It's exhausting.

Oh, yeah, yeah, it's a lot less with me now, and I'm fairly cognizant of trying to just sort of cognitively manage it, you know, to not make choices that will cause it. So I'm on top of that a bit. Right. Yeah.

I think, yeah, I think, so, and what's your resistance to do with the things that will actually shift something? It will become sort of time and just sort of investigating how I need to do it. Like, I don't, like, you know, I know that I've made progress, and I know that, and I've recently really realized that there is another leap I have to make, you know, that could free me and open my heart. I just, I just have not pursued it as much, but I know it.

You know, I'm not just blithely in denial. I'll speak for myself that I was so scared of marriage. I was scared of being with someone for the rest of my life. I was scared of, you know, connection.

If something got too close or maybe clean with me, I would just sort of, like, my skin would crawl. And now it's like, oh, man, I mean, the sex is better because it's super so connected. Like, I'm happier than I've ever been, and I can, like, the world's a little bit brighter because I can see the sunshine. And I just, like, it's incredible how much energy I invested in keeping myself from being happy.

Like, it's so much work to keep myself from being happy. It was insane. But when you're in it, you just think it's who you are. Exactly.

And because it's so hard to see yourself. Everyone else can see it. So the journey through the truth is this psychological journey in all its manifestations. It doesn't scientifically make sense.

Biologically, you know, nodding some of the Catholic Church Institute in the 9th century. Right. Why are we still doing this? So you're still operating from your disease point of view.

Yeah. Trying to justify your behavior. Exactly. But I'm going to go invent a new kind of relationship that's true and authentic to me and show the world how it's better and they're wrong.

Yeah. And so I tried, you know, the polyamory scene, the swinging scene, tried having an open relationship, all those different things. Well, let's talk about those quickly. The polyamory scene.

What went wrong? So I went to this thing called the World Polyamory Conference, and I thought they'd talk about how you deal with multiple relationships. It's this very weird new age thing where they had something called a puja, P-U-J-A. And it was sort of, you know, it was so confusing, but they were kind of having this kind of group orgy, but it was all kind of new age.

They were talking about priestesses. They didn't talk about your penis with a wand, the sacred cathedral with a woman. What the fuck was this? It was just some weird, like, some weird...

I don't know that that would be the representational of the polyamory community. And I got kicked out of the orgy for eating popcorn. I was eating popcorn. I said, you can't eat food in the temple.

You need to leave. Really? And I got kicked out of the orgy for eating popcorn. And so that was my...

A blessing in disguise. A blessing in disguise. And so I moved in with three girlfriends. And I said, I'm going to live in a free love nirvana.

They're all non-monogamous. We're going to have this great life. And it totally blew up in my... Obviously, anyone listening knows, it blew up in my face.

Little things that they didn't teach at the conference, like, who gets the front seat of the car? You literally have three people standing at the door and have to choose one. And I ended up literally sleeping on the couch almost every night. Now, when you were in the groups of your sex addiction, we talked about dominance, submissive, and that stuff.

Where did you end up in that world? I really like a... I think I looked at the community and watched some of that stuff. But I'm really like, I like to be equals.