Episode 80 - Jack Docherty

Hello and welcome to sitcom gigs I'm James Kerry and I'm going and with us is a wonderful guest I'm very excited to be talking to you because he's written one of my favourite sitcoms of all time Mr. Don and Mr. George it is Jack Dockety. Hello.

Yes. Hello. I believe it's 25 years. It's 25 years Yeah, coming up soon.

I'm delighted that you said that I wrote it as well. I haven't mentioned Murray. I'm sure Murray will listen to this. I get very little to do with it.

It's nice that you've spoken to. You know I just have blue-ray DVD version. Yeah, that's good. My commentary.

I know it's 25 years because my son, my first son, Nicole was born in the middle of that recording and so I was up all night with the breath of my first son and then just drove straight from the hospital to do the recording, to do the run through at 9 o'clock that morning, to do the technical day and then go recording that evening. So by 10 o'clock the time we finished it, yeah, so I was completely flying. So I'd love to see the outtakes of that night because I was so jazzed and so hyper. Which I was really close.

Yes, it was the one where my character gets jealous when Don's dating somebody that's Burns maybe? Right, okay. Yeah. I'm just because it's 25 years and I haven't watched it since.

So I'm a bit sketchy. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

She was an ear. Stuart. Is that okay? No, I know three or four of them incredibly well.

Yeah. Yeah. Where you go on holiday, the Winslow Apple, George, you've eaten my future. You can't hide your legs.

Yes. Yes. That's it. And I had an idea.

Yes. I take them off the telly and watch them and then I think somebody takes over it. Could you do this at home? Yes.

I'd like getting a VCR. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

We still have a beta max if you want to go on those ones. Yeah. Yeah. And they were, I think they're right on all four now.

Four or 25 years. Well, you can get on iTunes as well. Okay. Oh, well, I'm good.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Anything on all four in my opinion is unwatchable because they may have watched.

And then it gets stuck in the loop and changes the same ad but it's six times. They haven't cried. Yeah. That's like Netflix winning eight.

Yeah. But even I play a figure. Even the BBC have figured this out. And they are really sort of thing.

It's kind of amazing. It feels like it's being dictated by the advertising rather than the other way around. Yeah, absolutely. So let's go.

Let's start with that 25 years ago. Yeah. So you're doing a sitcom. Did you feel, so it's a sitcom based on two characters that you've done in absolutely the sketch show?

Which I bless you. The other, for the list of the listeners, I saw Jack the other day at a book launch thing. And I said that I was showing, I'd been showing sketches and absolutely to my kids. And we were sort of endlessly quite, my daughter now says correct in every particular.

Which is funny when a 70 year old does it. And it's lying from, you probably didn't even remember ever saying that lying. No. No.

And so I blessed him. Jack was sort of humored me as I recited large. Because I was talking about, I thought it was a congeal hilly. No.

And then when the John and John's finished, you come up and someone came up to me and said, I hope we have sufficient underpants. And again, going, no idea what you're talking about. I'm assuming it's from some sketch somewhere. In fact, we saw John Finnimal last night.

And he said that Stephen Fry had this four years after being in Blackadder. Somebody screaming across the street, Pigeon murderer. Which was obviously very famous in history. But he told to have recorded it that night, not seen it since, not even thought about it.

And it's just like, and he was frightened. What am I being accused of? What is this? What have I done?

I'd actually go further back, in fact. We were 34 years in that. My first professional item, in 1984. And we shared the theatre with the Bodgers was your four of you.

With the four Scottish guys went on to do absolutely. And then in the lunchtime, you did a double act with Murray. Oh, yes. And I can remember, I can actually recite a lot of that.

Oh, God, God, we did it. The screaming hap dap. The screaming hap dap. Somebody else called the screaming hap dap.

And I remember the Mars bar sketch, do you remember the Mars bar? The stand up comedian who they were. What is it about? Mars bars?

What did they make it? Factory and then put it in a lorry and sell it in shops. The other one of which looked at me just because it was exactly what happened. Was there not another, another observation comedian who was just really out there?

You know that thing, when you just shat in the bath and you're mucking up your hands. Anybody? I don't know if that was the same show. I'd probably have lunchtime show, I didn't do that.

I don't specifically, I can't put my hand on my heart and say, I first saw Mr. Don Mr. Jordan 34 years ago. I think we did.

I think we did some of that in that. Correct. And you were doing short before we did this. We both nominated for the period.

We were offered both up. Both are always the period. And I remember, we tried to be lost to brass band. We lost to a comedy brass band.

But you kind of called that vicious. That hurt. It's a Canadian brass, a humorous tuba player. Humorous is already making me worried.

Well, there wasn't really that many stand ups to that point. It was all, I was a sort of comedy player anyway. Holding multi voices. We were the most suggestual actors.

And then there was the hang-wine for a band, brass band and Frank Chickens. Remember the Japanese girls? Do you call the Frank Chicken? I think next year we lost to a shot.

Much more happily lost to theatre to the Complicity. We're doing a show. They're running short minutes too late. That's the one from more Bigger Snacks now.

But a minute too late remains one of my... I just kept going back. I must have seen it 8, 9, 10 times. I couldn't believe all that.

I remember we were talking about this earlier. I was doing Jean-Glove's a lot. The theatre had accomplished like a 20 minute version of Jean-Glove's. I had a good day.

I had a good day. I had a good day. I was a great audience. There wasn't a sense that a comedy club to watch four young blokes in jeans, doing the same types of jokes over and over and over.

You just saw whatever was put there, juggle as my artist. It was more variety definitely in those days. I've been to the festival again this year for the first time in 23 years. Really?

It's now a holiday since 1993. 25 years? I've seen you in 1993 actually. Did you double that with Murray?

Yeah. My sister got married that year in Edinburgh. Did she? In the festival.

But it was possible to do something in Edinburgh that wasn't to do with the festival in August. Yes. Have you been back since? I've been back a couple of times to visit.

I've been back since I did the one show one summer. You're from there. It's my hometown. Sorry, it ends up drifting into this.

You're at school and you're aware of this thing that's around you. There's people doing this comedy thing that aren't on the television. Was that an important thing for you then in terms of what drifted you into the... What were you watching when you were growing up on TV?

You were then saying, hang on, this isn't on TV. What I watched and going right back would be starring off with everybody with more common wise stuff like that. I do remember that I was unusual and I knew it was written. You know, even at 10, 11.

I was 10 in 1972 when they had the Big Christmas Special. I remember seeing Eddie Braben and being obsessed with, oh, so they're not making it up. Somebody's actually creating this and then my mum got me the book of scripts. Oh, okay.

I'm just seeing it, seeing how a script was written down. I mean, that's how they describe the moment where he hits him. It was great. And it's still had one of my favourite jokes on the back of that book, which is Eddie Braben writes the scripts right after it worked by a knotted real name.

It took his name from Stormton of Eric in the picture. And I still remember so clearly going to my mum and go, look, this is so funny because you think it's going to be more common. And so you're surprised and so you're laughing. And I don't think my sense he was actually got beyond that, that I needed to have the rug pulled out from my head to go, oh shit.

I don't know if that's where it was going. I'm surprised by what you've done. I'm surprised by the comedic notion. We've got to deconstruct everything.

So that and then the book was of course, you know, the Python's not. I like the straight seconds as well. I like the porridge and Clement Franny Bigfiner and the porridge and then of course Python and the records. And then I did notice, ah, there's the Cambridge Review and there were good years when I was at school.

You know, probably Jimmy Melville and then Angus Deet and I remember seeing when I was at school. So that became a possibility. Yeah. Were you guys all at school together?

The four of you? The four of you guys, yeah, we were all at school together. They are considerably older than me, obviously. So they were, Mariam, Peter and Sixth, when I was in the first year.

Wow. And Gordon was in the fifth year. So it's five years. Yeah, I know.

But then they came, I was doing like a school comedy show and they came back to see that and then asked, they were forming this group to do festival and they asked me to join. So that's how we all got together. Right. The Budgers.

Yeah. And then that's what became, I mean the radio show as the Bodgers and had the usual thing of your sergeant, sergeant writing. I don't know. It's got, is this one man or is this, I don't, is it ten of them?

I remember you making, you pointing that out actually in the show. In fact, it was produced by Alan Nixon, who was also. Another joke. It's got.

And I do remember there being sketches in this. Oh, it's a radio show. Oh, yes. And you don't do impersonations.

You're all basically sounding like these four guys read them. Yeah, yeah. Making jokes about that fact. Yeah.

Exactly. I did not have one in the corner. I did six man wells. It's that old story, isn't it?

Somebody once said, what's going on? It's a must be a pocket for. Which one's that? I don't know.

I was sick of all, something which we could have with a sick concept and stuff. And we had six man wells. Yeah, but I'm sure it's not true. But then to be fair to Alan and to Sergeant, to fly the turn, whoever ruined his thing, I kind of said, that's how we led to joining forces, and we were wearing a John Sparks, which became absolutely and then we went and then we went and joined George on the back of it.

So what's in a way, were you, you weren't necessarily always heading towards a sitcom. Because we talked about it all times, it's a comedy on the show, but it's a quote in particular. Did you feel that that was what you were graduating towards, or was that like, it just felt like this came up and you got to do it and so on? Yeah, kind of.

Just we wanted to decide the long form in the back of it. We'd always read the sketches for lots of other people, for other sketch shows, you know, from Spinning Image to Smith & Jones. You know, that, when there was lots of sketches on television and radio, so you could almost make it easy, let me just by writing sketches, just to try to do any longer. But then two things happened with the rank for other people, we realised that hang on there paid lots and cars picking them up and the man who is short and strangers appear to sleep with them, what's going on?

Why am I a writer? Well, let's do this before our own stuff. But also there's a certain stuff that you write that's not, that's going to be yours that's particular to you and not to Mail & Grapher, whoever else. So no, we didn't really, and then we just fanted it to going long form.

For something we thought that, Maureen I really liked writing John and George, writing that world, that comedic world, and you know, who was it, was Marty Feldman who said that unreal things in an unreal world, unreal things in a real world, unreal people in a real world, always work, a real people in unreal world, so it never works, it's unreal people in an unreal world. So we tested that. So we had a chance for our own states, can we prove this? Have you got a million pints?

I'm going to prove this. Unreal people in unreal doesn't work. But yet it works for many people. If you like it, people that like don't really like it, people who don't really don't like it.

Because it also, in one sense in particular, because of the tone of it and everything, it was on, in one sense it was comedy glory years for Channel 4, because they were also putting Paul Mertin on, and they were doing lots of further 10, loads of things. Big and bold, but not sorry because I worked a bit now. But to have a show like that on at 10.30 on a Friday night, and people watching it going, I'm sober, do I need to not be sober for this? But for me, I was 15, 16 or something, just thinking, oh my goodness, this is the perfect form of comedy.

This is physical word play, there's an innocence to it. So children do like it. We're running off a joke, do we by accident make a kid show? Because we removed all those things like political reference or sexual jokes, I think that was that bucket of what you expect to get your comedy and something was left with a slightly blank set.

There's only one bit, I have to say, oh I should shout to my kids. But there's one bit where the head of MI6 blows his brains out. And a comical amount of blood poured off him for like 30 seconds. His brains just keep coming.

And then a week. Of course. It would be a week. I might have to fall towards it.

Yeah, go ahead. But yeah, it's funny, Paul Feig was a fan of it, and absolutely. Another guy did Bridesmates, bizarrely. He was a big absolutely fan, and then on the six kept in touch with Moennas, and Moennas was in a couple of his films.

But then he introduced me to the American writer, I think it might have been Brad Isaacs, who then told his story that they'd watched it, and he was the first American writer that we watched on a time. But it'd been joy, but also just sitting around going, they got this meat. And this went on a proper television show. It wasn't on a scratchy cable access, 27 people.

This was on one of the main channels, and that was the Jivef it. They really just didn't go okay. Did you realise that time? Did you realise that?

You did not eat hand and discret through it. It just felt like the next day. It just felt normal. Ten years of honing it as a lie, presumably meant that you guys were comfortable enough in the characters.

And writing it. For you it wasn't that sort of leap, was it? And I think Channel 4 was being very innovative in their comedy. And that's what they were, that's presumably what they picked it up on the basis of.

Yeah, they were just experimenting and throwing things out. I think it's just a bad usual thing. They weren't afraid to fail. They had a few.

They were only one series. Like Paris, which I liked, but they were sort of in a way, I think they knew they were looking for Father Ted, which they eventually got. That's a real thing. And they still have.

But it's enough in the real world for us to buy it. And yeah, I absolutely buy these guys. That was shameless. That was shameless.

Yeah, yeah. He commissioned a lot of great stuff. He was looking for all. I mean, that's why I'm always mindful.

I'm reading anybody's scripts, I'm giving my opinion. I'm always mindful of the fact that if I'd seen Vic and Bob and have been the Comedy Commissioner, I would have had to have said, what is this? How is this? Why is everyone laughing?

I literally don't have the software in my head to get it. But that one needs to trust people to say, seriously, you'll be. You have to go down, unfortunately, doing it live. So you get to see that.

We wrote the Montreal, Montreal, just for laughs, just for basketball. And Vic and Bob were writing at the same time, and the great thing was that they made absolutely no concession at all. So the audience. And it was just 500 people and six of us at the back.

They went on about, whatever, because Jeg would nail him big. Well, that was always that I remember because Vic used to come down to the tunnel club every Sunday, and I used to do stand-up shows there. And it just was the ritual was, oh, Malcolm Hardy. So here he goes, Vic Reeves and everybody, the glasses would come out, the plastic glasses.

He'd go on and just throw a glass at him and go, fly me to the moon and all that. And you watch this guy, you just thought, God, I don't know, I don't know if this guy is funny or not, but he's got some bloody bottle. We have the week, he's come back to be abused by this audience. But he knew they kept turning out to see it.

Yeah, they would get there. But you just have to, we pitched absolutely, and absolutely was much more written. You can read that script, but that's worth playing. But there's still sex with a visual, and when Charles and I were coming in high, and they were not sure of this, we said, well, people come and perform it to him.

I can't believe that we do something. That's the great innocence of being relatively young. And so to James Cassidy, Mike Ball and the boss, and who else was there? Literally, I kind of take a glorified table.

Because the Rebit switch was, you know, John Sparks holds his trousers and moves his knee whilst humming green sleeves. You can go well. There's a leap. If you read that, you could have 20, if you go well.

But then you see John, you go, oh, right, OK. Well, that's funny. But you know, I would never, could you imagine doing that now? The problem is you get.

You lose your innocence when you're in your position. Can I just, I'll come and read it to you. I'll just take, I'll just take what you're saying about the Montreal Comedy Festival, the fact that to you guys, it was hilarious. And I've heard other comedians tell stories of how they would dare each other to go out there and do a sort of pull face.

And not even do their act. And you're backstage with, you know, with American comedians who've honed a 12 minute thing so that they can get their slot on cards or whatever. And the Brits are just like, whoa, whoa, whoa. So, they're telling, other than Craig, other than Craig Ferguson, who did play that game very well, he was, well, yeah, I think he was much more interested in let's go get to America.

Right. We're dinner really tight set. Okay. Agents there, you know, Caroline from Caroline's in New York, book you, and you're right everyone else.

Yeah, he's, he's so famous in America, in a sense, we've literally never heard of him. Yeah, exactly. He's not, yeah, he's, you could come and play a time. I remember being Hitler very well.

Yeah, that's right. He used to be on the sunset. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah.

He wasn't Hitler and Hylie, I'm home, was he? No, he wasn't. No, there's another one serious. Yes, sure.

That wasn't it, Jeff. Jeff wrote it. Yeah, yeah. I think it was an early sky show.

It was a B Sky B Sky B Sky B or I was still BSB before it was B. I think it was, it was what killed BSB. It was not when he got taken by. Yeah, it was a daily show, a topical show as well, which never been.

And that was every day we went in knowing that our show was going out to six people possibly. Yeah. And for every day you think this is going to end, I'm getting paid stupid money to be here. And every day there'll be like a really big name guest.

I've got Graham Gardens hosting today. Oh, we got, and then the next week it was on Neil Kinuk or something. Huge names, people come in and do this topical show. Nobody watched.

What was your goal? Up your news. Oh, yes. Nine months that show lasted.

And that's when they were making Hylie Honey, I'm home at the same time. Also getting an audience of three people. It was the Squereal. Yes, I remember the Squereal.

It was a satellite. They sat auditioned Square. And then they died down very quickly. Yeah, right.

It was probably the making of Rupert Murdoch, that TV's. I think in some small way you have contributed. Yes. The rise, yes.

Right. I mean, one sense, is actually healthy. Because I think now there is a real kind of, everyone wants to be a writer. And I think that's popular.

The most sought after job, according to the Guardian, is novelist. Because it feels like a, you know, Bohemian sitting in your garret and then going out and coffee and writing and stuff. But also there's a lot of young people who are determined to make it great and stand up in writing. Whereas it feels like there was an innocence in the 80s and 90s, just like, how long can we get away with this for?

Yeah. Before somebody makes us work in a bank. Yeah. I think I'm crawling back to my dad saying, I will work in your print works after all.

Yeah. Yeah, there was certainly, I think, I'm always wary of, you know, when you talk about Ayo, back in your day. Yeah. I was, I'd met Jimmy Gilbert a few times.

You know who ran comedy conga with someone and he was like, oh yes, we just used to order 12. We'd watch it go out. Yeah. You've got that sounds great.

And now I'm talking about my role. Oh, that sounds great. But I think you're right. There was a certain, there was a certain glee of, we've escaped.

Yeah. We were going to be, you know, I was going to be a lawyer and my name was a teacher and whatever. And exactly that got out. We've got out.

We've managed to, and the downside of that is you do sort of treat life like a massive weekend. Yeah. And you just go on one for like 30 years. Yeah.

We're still getting away with this. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's a good thing.

Yeah. Because I think you want stuff too much. Especially now when it's even more competitive. Yeah.

And that being, because you know, when people ask me when I, about my sort of trajectory, even 20 years ago, when I was at university, even though I knew that stuff on TV was written, it didn't occur to me, I would ever be one of those guys to write them. Yeah. Yeah. Even though I'd sort of written stuff at university, I'm some of a dairy farmer, some of sets, and everyone who went to my school has ended up becoming a missionary or a bishop.

Yeah. Yeah. And so it was, even though I was quite good at it and I was doing it, I still never quite occurred to me. Yeah.

I'm allowed to do it. Yeah. And actually maybe there is a healthy attitude of, you've got to do it because you love it. Yeah.

You've got to enjoy it. And if you're not enjoying it, you probably do something else. Yeah. If you want to do it, you'll find a way of doing it.

Because it's just what drives you. Yeah. If you write, you write, you write, you write, it's in you. I always had a, it's in a part of the other week and a therapist, which was the other people were one of the guests, they were saying, she said, why do you write?

And it was like, it was, I quite such stunning simplicity that I was completely, I've never even considered. Right. It's just something I've done. Yeah.

So you lay down on the couch. It was so that you could control because your life is so out of control. And it doesn't have the conclusions and the narrative for us and the tie ups and the three plus, because it's just so random that we've got a little bit of control over something. It could be something that could be something that could be something.

Do you think that's what you came up with for you? That's what I came up with for me. It was a different thing. It was a different thing.

Because we spoke, we spoke to John Finnemore at the other day. John, I asked him whether he was one of those writers who enjoyed writing, one of those writers who enjoyed having written. Yeah. And he was very much the second.

Yeah. There's a tiny bit of the start where it's exciting and he didn't have to do anything. Yeah. And the other at the end, in the bit in between as hell.

Yeah. Yeah. Was that kind of quite like the thing? I kind of like it.

Yeah. I suppose there's the thing, on the one hand, the knot fitting in and being the outsider and whatever, and making, creating a world that makes sense for you. Then on the other hand, and then what's the kind of people that have come out of the last 30 years, there is that sort of element of showing off. Yeah.

And so that's probably why so many of our sort of generation have become the writer-performist thing. There's more that there's a little bit of that having written aspect of it is quite a part. But I think that's a deep question. Yeah.

It's one that you don't really, if you just do it stingably. Right. And right before again, it's another branch that's in for everything. But you were actually writing for other people a lot.

Yes. Yeah. So, yeah. So, yeah.

And then before you could apply that discipline on others. Or did you find that when it was just when you knew it was for you, you weren't quite as rigorous as you could have been, or maybe you're thinking, they're going to be lifting it mean. So that's about even better. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Because you've got the fear that you're the one out front of those people trying to get the laugh. Because you were doing the, Adam Refringes, every year, pretty much from the 80s.

Yeah. Yeah. 80 to 85, then a year off than two more years, 80, 78, I think. Mario, the double acts rather than the full full.

Yeah. So, so you were always, you were always. Yeah. We were always performing quite a bit.

Yes. Yeah. But then I think, again, it was another, beyond that leap of, I'll never get to write anything. Yeah.

You know, the first ambition was, I think it wasn't, you know, let's get an additional material credit. That was about, yeah. That was our dream. Yeah.

Yeah. As far as we go. So then the next leap is, we can actually perform this ourselves. Yeah.

No one's going to hire us as the performers. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's just work in a very specific way by specific people, you know, that here's stuff that only will work with me and Mario Meruen and John Smyser, whoever he is.

Yeah. And you can hear them, I was writing some stuff in Milton the other day. Yeah. Knowing, actually knowing that I think Dan Texle is going to be performing this particular bit.

Yeah. And I was smiling to myself, hearing him say, you know, and also excited that he'll find bits in that I've not put in. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Because he's also a writer, fantastic writer on his own right. Yeah. That's the real joy when you work with a great proper performer.

Yeah. Yeah. That you just, and I've done it as an actor. Before I asked, what the hell are you working with Roger Allen when I'm so obsessed with him?

Yeah. But it's sometimes I think people do wonder should I put stuff in or leave stuff out? Yeah. I only ever put stuff in like that.

If, for example, if it's a radio recording, we're doing two. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And one afternoon, evening, and there's just no time and the line is no. Yeah. And you could go, no, no, or no. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And he's like, we don't have 20 minutes to find the best, no. Exactly.

I thought about this all week. Can we just do it this way? Can I try to do an exclamation mark? Yeah.

I've already, I've already been told that actors don't read it in the punctuation. Yeah. So don't even bother. Don't even think about it.

My writer by Richard O'Kachenley would sort of agonise over commas and the post-defees on just like, yeah. Yes. Yeah. I do sometimes read scripts from New Horizons, I say, but brackets angrily whilst thinking about the fact that it's been a sunny day today and he's got too many clothes on.

Angry but with school. Yeah. Angry but with school. Yeah.

People can overemphasise their stage instructions. Or they start directing. Be sparing. Be sparing.

I think it was the first sort of thing I know almost famous, you know, that movie, Cameron Kamen Kuroro, do I think? And as far as I saw it down, he put his put at the end of a description of action in italics what the character's thinking. Right. And it really is effective.

So, you know, he sits down at the bar lights of cigarette and watches the girl walk by italics he'll never know. Right. And you just know exactly what that character's thinking. He's never going to have a relationship with that girl.

Okay. And has an actually begun. Right, okay. Yeah, yeah.

And then go, he whistles the girl in his mind, he knows it. Yeah. Yeah. And then go to the show, which is really for two seasons called The Creatives.

Oh, here's a little bit more advertising. Roger was. I want to say Charlie Snow, but surely we even gone for a cool title. Character called Charlie Snow.

Maybe we did. That's a fairly young Roger Allen there. That was a fairly young Roger Allen. Yeah.

So good. So what I think you described it as a failure. Yeah. Well, two seasons is not a complete failure.

Exactly. I was going to say. But what for you, if you could go back and change it, would you, what would you do? I think it's a usual lesson.

It's just got to ring true, you know? And it didn't quite ring true. And I think essentially, I think maybe it's one that Murray and I should have set back from written for other, you've got more people like Roger in it. Yeah.

But we played the two central characters and we were just too similar in our characters. We were just two versions of sort of the same person. Right. I think thinking back in it, it's so long since I've seen it.

And also, I just think, a million years, well, a number of people have tried the, I think, set. Yeah. None of it's really worked. Even in the films, particularly.

Well, I think Adam was in Fox News and one of them. Yes, he did. The prototype is of course, well, Reggie Carey, you know, great super. Yeah, yeah.

Yes. That, that, that, that, that, to me, more like a slightly Kafkaesque office. Yeah. You didn't sort of quite know, it was Sunshine Dessert or something.

That's right. Yeah. But you sort of, it was, it felt like a bureaucratic company where the boss was the most important thing and the fact that the boss was seen to be the boss was the most important thing. Is it maybe that's a good thing?

It looks further than that. Did you, did you break your own, did you break the Golden Rule twice then with two different shows about being unreal people and unreal people? Because to normal people, as it were, advertising is already unreal. Yeah, no, I think we were pretty real.

I think the character was very surreal. I think it also fell into, we weren't quite sure what we were making. Again, that's the simplest advice we ever got from Jeffy Perkins. So I think commission creators always sound exactly what you're just saying.

Was it just know what you're making? And he kept saying, at the end of the quote, it's not going to go again because it's BBC one and a half. Yeah. And that's obviously a phrase that people use when we, now it wasn't broad enough for one and it wasn't quite edgy enough for two or experimental.

So it just kind of, and most of the people that were Scottish. So of course it was six men well's again. It was just what were we thinking? Yeah.

Crazy. No, no. I'm making a Spanish show with six men well. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, yeah, so we launched Roger in many ways. Yeah, very much. Yeah, very much.

And they may have spotted a request. Yeah. But no, I mean, sort of knowing what you're making is important. Although however, you might then, it once feels like you need to have an unshakable conviction of what you're making.

Yeah. And once you've made it, you may discover you've actually made something else. Yes. Yes.

And then once you discover what you have made, keep making that. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Yeah. Right. Yeah. Right.

Yeah. Right. They're always giving us the money. Right.

But you're giving us the money. All the things that would happen. Right. We're all helping us.

But you've got to live. Yeah. Right. Yep.

I'm gonna do it. It's the biggest, biggest, biggest, biggest, biggest, biggest. You're gonna have to be a little bit nicer. This is aomach.

Yeah. And you know what? For the first time, we're gonna perform a draft one, because this is great. Yeah.

Yeah. And you had to suppress that. Really. And you're gonna do it in from a draft.

Yeah. I guess there's a part of you as a writer, a performer that's sort of, as a piece of a performance, I Yeah, you've kind of taken a shortcut. Yeah, maybe that's right. Maybe you said if you would just been writing it Yeah, yeah, I'm having an actor going hang on.

Yeah, why am I doing this rather than Mario and I just know each other too Well, yeah, I think this is how it works But as you said by a version of yourself, I've recently read a script that I can't get sold Which is you're fairly autobiographical and you know someone about my age problems with you know His kids and his neck kids and his wife's and his ex-wife's and you know just a kind of scratchy vaguely indian kind of thing and everyone Who's right? Yeah, I just I just don't believe the central character. I don't believe the things that he did Is that more I've done every single one of those things in that script. I've done I said that I've done that That's how I behave with my children that occasion, but you're sitting in a team being told that so I am not a credible fictional character And yet I exist you know and again, it's kind of bad to what we were saying your life is very funny But it's like yeah, it's like there's no art but that's what we're saying.

There is no art There's no necessary happening a is not gonna touch these not gonna touch see it's it all as a shambles It's just absolute shambles and so let's so it's it's it's hard. Yeah, and I go no, it's it does it. I am credible Well, how about something where you just go we're talking about what you don't quite know what you've created with the creatives Yeah, and you know, then you get some distance on it But when we last spoke conversation that you're talking about movie scripts that you've been writing yeah, and how incredibly long process Yeah, how have you been able to keep going through that when it's sort of getting a film even shot is Yeah, well, we haven't got it. I'm had one shot.

I've been paid for like four right I think to so you know, they've been written one spawn a party with actors on the plane ready to go location And the money fell apart so you get that kind of thing So it's just I like film and so I'm interested in trying to get made but you know, I'm aware that I have to I'm not in the film Is it I make money from radio team? Yeah, I'm in the UK seems to be yeah, so we're all fascinated by animal to give it a go Yeah, and then some just move to LA and never come back. Yeah, you know the whole of Hollywood is stuffed full of British actors directors producers We are sitting in we are here in London one of the greatest financial centers in human history. Yeah, apparently the British can't put together Yeah, yeah, it just doesn't it doesn't it doesn't it doesn't it literally don't and we have the studios and and all the technical stuff that's Yeah, most of the lot that's made in the mid here.

Yeah, yeah, we're budget individual ones really Yeah, type genres of The Netflix thing like movies Yeah, we think about films. It's never in the audience always getting a little bit more there's another option to tell us Oh, there's apples gonna something Whereas the old is like three people say no that's kind of it. Yeah, if you weren't gonna get on it It was three people you were selling to where's film without you'd be in a meeting someone because there's a London lucksam Yeah, can you get one, you know one person and that's all true That's what you find in the world that I've actually sat in the conference call with a script about two old Scottish guys Doing the you know performing in Canada. Yeah doing the chicken in the basket tours in Canada.

You know hating each other It's kind of Harry Lotta types and And Bill Patterson's attached and be possible through a cancer anyway I think it was Bill Patterson people so we're gonna be the two but at the direct time a conference call with the sales agents and Jonathan Lin Yes, yes, yeah, yeah, you learn off Obviously and they were obviously just flicking through films that Jonathan had directed because some of this American disembodied American voice went well Cuba gooding would be good for the figures In in what role in this two 70 year old Scottish What can you get a minute? Also In it To You could you could put a Cuba good in junior as their agent in it yeah something yeah And then here it is and I know that went away. They're not they're not doing it now Yeah, or you're getting conversations that because such a base of pre-sales of which actually can Sales is yeah, and if you get down to Scott You know my own versus go past it neither of them. I'm sure they'd agree.

I'm not finding them are Tom Cruise Yeah, just cast it appropriately. Yeah, and so it's got a chance because it'll be true Yeah, where we'll get out and people will come and see it don't try crowbar and people yeah selling where yeah Yeah, what did you go back to the Lindberry? What did you what did you learn from working with him other than maybe Yes, don't work in film don't work in film Yeah, he's done everything isn't it yeah, you're one of my favorite films of all time being done on the run Oh, yes, that's not even a joke. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah And my cousin Vinny okay, it's very yeah sure that's great to yeah Yeah, yeah, he always it kept saying to me only you know that in in moments in the scene.

I wasn't playing yeah The scene I wasn't making clear what the scene was about okay, and he'd gone very Economy yeah, I think the people have worked on script and film I'm a good okay get into that scene change it from you know Positive to negative that's the point it's in get out of it as quickly as possible something more Well, you know you come in wanting something you've seen not once again Yeah, it's the wrong me Yeah, you read those books you know and because your characters on a is on one huge journey for me to be and you Gonna have little journeys to get in there along the way as opposed to somebody always says sick or you don't yeah No point is it comes you never change it's an eternal to yeah exactly as in film you've got it so he was very you know I would put something in here. There's no way there's no way in color for this Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's right for yeah, but that that's fine. Sometimes you just can't see it Yeah, it's amazing isn't it when you sort of come back with your eyes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah I'm here Surely in a visual medium yes exactly that so you've written for the screenplays yes I'm made still fighting together.

Yeah, I mean how many drafts have you gone for a man a lot yeah on Actually two of them a huge amount the two that got very close They want to talk about the Johnson be probably the 22 draft I mean by the end you're doing smaller Yeah, it's on page one rewrite so yeah for the 20s right and but that one was going through tortures Oh, we need this actor that actually suddenly you know people finance it going we need more of the young people No, it comes in movie all people so you'd be the young person's doing a man called hotel something does well We love all people we love all people yeah, exactly You get a lot of that you that big chase yeah So how do you how do you keep going through that? But what is it makes you just not want to go? What you were saying is the blind belief that will happen and actually because you're enjoying the process I do actually enjoy the process of right now. That's right.

That's fortunate Yeah, exactly This voice with this will never be made so I grant always says the voice with me shit as well It was ever made that's true I mean I think of like if you start with radio and where as a writer you have a lot of control Yeah, I've a lot written against what then goes out Yeah, and then and then in TV if you're very lucky you're writing you've got between between your writing vision and what goes out There are people producing people who who can speak them both the language and the language of TV So they kind of protect you in a sense from the worst successes of that But it sounds like with these movies that you you're not really protected from that You are you are you are writing are based on somebody's economic view of a thing rather than because the story has something that's not right I mean, but presumably there's a lot of that as well you get a lot of great notes from lots of great people But there might be lots of other people or money changes So you're saying that there's a new money person who wants a different thing And I think that's why Jonathan in the end was tired of making films because he said I'm just tired of being chairman of the board Right, and that's really what you are pretending to movie is that he was making by the end with any more fear Yeah, whoever you're there's so many people yeah telling you tell you what to do and generally the things that work best in common are Kind of writer. Yeah, they're kind of authored authorial. You know, great and then stuff. You listen to the podcast Yeah, it's he's sort of the boss and that yeah, and anything and that's not to say that you're kind of I'm in charge But it's your kind of vision and you're kind of leading that bubble You've been creating this environment to lead up on really anything the things I've done that have worked So I've been the things that I've been I've had most control over or with the group of people and they created partners Yeah, and there's not yet And it sort of it becomes a whole thing and it's sort of not diluted or which is why I guess the writer performer Saturday night live type Well, for whatever their writers and former and so they are the movie and they can do anything they want so they can all for this thing Yeah, and then occasionally a movie like the Princess Bride gets made Yeah, which you know a well-respected writer had the total confidence of a brilliant director and this weird film turned out and it's basically perfect Yeah, it's great.

Yeah, we know he's not even a comedy writer. Yeah, I know It's really it's so great and we're gonna have that giant and we're gonna have that girl that you never heard of that guy You never heard of yeah, and the block from Homeland Yeah, we also mean without trace He must be so tired of that. Yeah, especially because he probably they probably shot the film in what six weeks? So six weeks of his life.

Yeah will now last forever. Yeah, do you ever get the urge then do you just say you know Relaxing by the pool in a but thinking God I wish I was just performing there in front of 30 people in the Carlton studios or something. Yeah, yeah, I said, I gave up for about I don't know about 10 years I suppose and Wasn't really didn't have much of a desire to go back to the guy the comedy unit guys. You know who make Lemie and Bernstein still game 11 to a lift yeah, I mean that's just one of the great yetches I don't know the way to monetize Facebook works you know It's like tiny million people have watched it.

It's just crazy But yeah, but they asked me to do a thing called Scott's got a place thing And that's what going back into performing it was just kind of half you know in the middle of a take thinking Yeah, but in person improvise that's kind of that's very interesting I'm done that before and really enjoyed that and the turn over how much material you can do Yeah, and how it just takes the pressure off, you know that you've got a kind of little storyline But you follow it go wherever you want and obviously right it or go a guy called Joel who let writes it So you get a little a lot of my character stuff and Scott's what I'm being interviewed behind the desk I'm just a pompous leader of the police forms But that's the time to be sketchy square You know someone's come to do this and a B and C happens Then you just go for it and it's so freeing because you suddenly go okay Well, it doesn't matter you take a minute more nervous makes you much less nervous It doesn't matter doesn't work. Yeah, because we're improvising Yeah, I know so you go where you want you realize that so much performing that worries you is forgetting your lines and actually If there are no lines you can't forget them so you just right I'm gonna say that's not yeah And then another thing I call Scott in the day for Channel 4 in the back of the referendum Right, we're actually just filming myself and that was really the camera so small Yeah, there's walk around holding the camera talking to improvising it then showing right you speak I'll speak you speak and that was fantastic Yeah, and you think okay, well, this is maybe there's programs to be made really cheaply like that that might work that you can just get through Because often when you perform, you know an hour to light a scene and of course you want it to look at it But then also you think well a lot of the time I'm even absolutely it's like shit We've got three minutes now to perform it. Yeah, but this is you know, this should be about the performance Yeah, yeah, it's words and but we just don't have time. Yeah, it's gonna move on.

Yeah, we're gonna do three of these exactly Did you do a bunch of stony bridge in one night or for example? Yeah, probably yeah, I think we probably did yeah Yeah, yeah, it's there and we would do it although actually having said that I think it was back in this is enough money to spring the set back every week Or absolutely was written away, but we didn't know what would work so we weren't planning Okay, I was doing this more those yeah, so that might be my gonna see it in between them or whatever Yeah, so do you feel in a way that you're slightly rediscovering that you can just do it you can just do it you can just Completely you sort of come out the other side and come back to your yeah performing roots and just getting away with it almost completely I do feel like I'm full circle and I'm really enjoying it. Yeah, that's why I'm gonna do it again. It's just yeah And it's yeah, it's I mean, it's it's nerve-wracking, you know, it's I think maybe that So I do get saying the wings and you're gonna fuck Why am I putting myself this is insane?

When you do you on your own yeah, I mean there were just odd moments Yeah, I always had about five minutes before about to go on yeah often often it was in Edinburgh It was just like God I've never felt so isolated and lonely as I do Okay, yeah, I can feel that in that second walking out. Yeah, I doing here now why yeah I had died doing the glass of comedy festival and doing that the core character there Which was like an hour and a half show and just telling the wings you know exactly that I think is that what you're doing then in ed? Well, I could put some of that character Maybe some other characters. I'm quite decided yet really yes, it'll be a it'll be driven probably by that character But yeah the fear and then and then get when you get that first up when you're taking that shine you get that first laugh, okay, right?

Oh, and then you learn oh the last bit of directing is always done by the audience right? Oh shit. That's where the that's not me It's Murray replies. Yeah, I'm funny.

Yeah, you know and that's why I think you know I hopefully live performance and live sitcoms and you know students that don't die out because I think there's the live So precious and such a shame that it feels really yeah by the wayside. I know maybe it'll come back because it's really vital that you know And it's really it's so unfairly maligned a thing and same failed and you know, well, that's a it's just relevant today So you did an episode of stop start. Yes. Yeah, how did that experience compare to the comedy playhouse?