Hello and welcome to episode 83 of Structure Vision. Structure vision is a space for exploring new ways of thinking about social structure. My name is Jody Clark and I'm very grateful that you're listening today. You are very welcome here.
If you're coming back, welcome back, I'm thrilled that you're here. If you're new, welcome, I'm thrilled that you're here, just a little bit of information about myself. My passion is linguistics and I'm lucky enough to actually work as a linguist at Sheffield Helen University. Fascinated by language, I love to explore the connections between language and social structure.
I love to think about the ways that when you look closely at language, you can imagine new possibilities for social structure. Recently in the past several years, I've been exploring these ideas through creative fiction, some of which I'll share with you today. I tend to start the episode with a couple of questions just to give you something to chew on because I'm busy talking away and I like for your brain to be working in the background if you'd like. The two questions are these.
The first one is, what are your weaknesses? When would that question appear for you? I think you will automatically recognize that. Well, maybe you will and maybe you won't.
But for me, it's a question that I've had to ask myself lots and lots and lots of times because I've gone to lots and lots and lots of job interviews. It's not the type of question that pops up over coffee or when you're meeting a new friend or when you're online, what are your weaknesses? It seems to only come up during job interviews. I have been asked that question several times in job interviews, not as many times as I've prepared an answer for it though.
It's a strange one. What's actually going on when someone's asking for your weaknesses? You might have been in a job interview situation, either as the interviewer or the interviewee where you've asked that question or had to answer that question. I'm giving you a chance to think through that question.
The second one is, what have you learned from COVID? My husband and I were just reflecting on, I think it was because he was making flat breads and he makes them out of self-raising flour and they're really, really simple. It's just self-raising flour and water. I think it's all he uses.
They're absolutely delicious. I was thinking, well, during COVID, were we making this when it was hard to get bread and he said it was hard to get everything. You couldn't get self-raising flour. I think we got our hands on some baking powder, but we didn't get any flour to go with it.
That gave me reflect on the fact that there was a lot about that, especially that first period of lockdown that I had forgotten, the uncertainty of it and the panic-vying and just simply being in a completely new experience and a frightening experience and we didn't know when it was going to end and it still hasn't ended. But some of the initial elements of that have certainly ended. Now the fact that we're three years away from that first moment where most of the world shut down is perhaps a nice time to reflect. I think both of those questions, what have I learned from COVID and what are my weaknesses, are those meta-level questions that you sometimes do when you want to do a bit of self-exploration.
I'm not sure you're going to be asked the question, what did you learn from COVID in a job interview? If you're about heading to a job interview, maybe think about the weaknesses first. The job interview thing pops up for me because I've been discussing it with some students this semester in a module called Identity and Power. What we do there is look at some of the ways that language and particularly discourse, we use the term discourse, shapes our understanding of the world, often in quite oppressive ways because we still live in very oppressive societies to different levels.
That has a major intersection with language. Because we see the world through language, we see ourselves and our identities through language, we are constantly having to express ourselves, that interview situation where you've got to say something about yourself. In theory, all of the information that the interviewers have about you, they will have received through language. So your CV, your maybe if you had to write a statement, maybe if you had to write a cover letter, and then what you're saying to them in the interview.
So everything about you and the decision about whether or not you will get the job belong, potentially have some health in terms if you're in the US and you need it. All of that is mediated through this sort of envelope if you like of language, through this screen of language in some ways. And so that's why it can be so anxiety provoking to have to sort of perform orally in that way. Because if you don't tell the interviewers what's good about you, even if they know it, at least in the UK, the law says or often policies say they can't take into account unless you have told them it, unless it's sort of available for them.
So if you happen to know that they're a really good person, unless you can evaluate it from what they've said, you're not allowed to actually use that. I've heard people can kind of control without the past. But anyway, all of this to say the language creates the you that gets hired or doesn't get hired. And it's not always that level of you're not always standing on that precipice with language, but often you're in the situation where how you present is mediated through language.
Now it's not just language, obviously there's other things like what you're wearing and how you hold yourself and the quality of your voice, not necessarily what you're saying and what your hair looks like and what your face looks like. And what color your skin is and how tall you are and that type of thing. But the interesting thing about that is that is all still semiaically mediated and that I simply mean someone has to look at that part of you and decide that it means something else. So if they look at you and they see very plucked eyebrows, let's just say, then then that means something to them.
It's not just, Oh, I look at nice the eyebrows. Oh, I look, I see that she's plucked her eyebrows. That must mean that she's fastidious or that must mean that she cares about this interview or that must mean she's vain. She cares too much about appearances.
But in any case, what we say when something semiaically mediated is that it's part of a sign system, it's part of a meaning system and we're assigning meanings to things that in some ways have no real connection with a meaning or the connection they have with a meaning is one that has to be imposed upon it. So language governs a lot of where we fit in the social world and the social hierarchies and the social matrices. And this is why we explored at university. And we have a look at a French theorist.
I talked about Michel Foucault quite a lot on especially in really early versions of this podcast, early episodes of this podcast. And he talks about the ways in which sort of discourses, so all of these, all of this language, all of these ideas about who you should be, they work really well to keep people in line and they do that for a particular reason. He says effectively what societies do, the way they control people is by requiring them to have an individual self. And that requirement then enables you to make sure that people toe the line.
So the second that I think I have a self that I think I have an individuality that I'm seeing myself as separate from everyone else. And I'm also seeing myself as someone who can be judged. So if I walk into the interview room and I recognize that I am not you and you are different from me and you are someone judging me, then all of that becomes part of the dynamic. It becomes part of the discourse and it becomes part of my understanding of myself and your understanding of myself.
And it becomes crystal clear to me how available to be evaluated. I am. And that makes me toe the line in terms of I think in terms of what you want to hear and I orient to what you want to hear so that I can fit into this other structure. And then once I'm in that structure, there's going to be all these other aggressive things that happen because I think I'm self and then I have to be only make sure I'm a good employee.
And I want to be seen as a good employee and maybe I also want to be this other or whatever. And it's absolutely exhausting and oppressive. So I am not of the mind as you might know from the people who have these podcasts before. I don't think it's a bad thing.
I actually think a self is a miraculous mysterious thing. However, it can also be a mechanism of oppression like most miraculous mysterious things. So let me tell you a little bit about a time I got the weakness question really very, very wrong. And luckily it didn't happen in the heat of the moment.
It was when I was finishing up my PhD at Lufferin University, which is where I got my PhD. And I had been applying for jobs and I had been a shortlist data and I was called in for an interview and I think it might have been my first one, so first academic interview, so or first interview for an academic job. And I was talking to my PhD supervisor about it and asking for some guidance. And we were talking it through and she said, okay, so have you thought through the weakness question?
And I said, I know they're probably going to ask me about a weakness. And I've already decided what I'm going to tell them. And I'm just going to tell them my weakness is that, you know, in a teaching situation when I walk into a classroom, I can feel so completely overwhelmed by the moods and the energies and the worries and concerns and anxieties of the students in the classroom. I feel like a sponge just absorbing everyone's energies, moods, experiences.
And that can be really, really exhausting. And I found ways of dealing with that, which you include after teaching session, just needing a couple of hours to lie down flat or to have a really long bath. Like that, just in case you were wondering, that is not the right answer to the weakness question. The reason it's not the right answer is because it was utterly true.
And as it turns out, you're supposed to be truthful in interviews. You cannot tell outright lies, but you can't be true in a way that's going to make you seem like you don't fit in or that there's something unusual about you because anything unusual about you will be considered problematic. And it's not necessarily the thing that is unusual about you. It is the fact that you were not able to judge what was being asked of you with the question, which is what is your weakness.
And what was super bad to say was she said, I knew that's a little bit too much. You know, that's too, you revealed too much there. She said, tell them that you over prepare. So I had to, which I don't actually think I do over prepare, but her interpretation of my weakness was that I over prepare.
And of course it has that lovely element of, oh, I over prepare, which means I'm extra keen. So my weakness is really strengthened. It makes me really productive in your eyes, et cetera. And it felt like it would just feel so wrong to actually say that as my weakness.
What I really did know what my weakness was, which was that I was like an empathy sponge. But what I learned from that conversation is that a lot of people are not. A lot of people don't have that particular problem. I think that was a kind of little bit late in my life to realize that not everybody was moving through the world that way.
If you're listening and you move through the world that way, then I see you. And if you're listening and you don't move through the world that way, it's okay. You move through the world in a different way, probably in a slightly provoking way. So that, but that realization that other people don't experience the world in terms of simply absorbing other people's news, it's recognizing that that is not how other people experience the world actually had a pretty interesting impact on my research.
It shaped the way I started looking at language. And I've moved on in terms of my ideas about language because I'm just so fascinated by it. I just keep wanting to think about it. I keep wanting to re-ask the questions.
Now, the way I articulate it is to say that all of my research, whether that's the creative work or the academic work, it is a study of the intimacy embedded in the structure of language. And if you've heard me talk about that before, what I am saying about that is that intimacy requires selfhood and it requires self plus other. And I believe, or the way I like to look at language, let's put it that way. I don't think it's as strong as I believe, I think it's a kind of approach to language, is that language is uniquely positioned to produce selfhood and to produce otherness.
And that positioning of language or that power of language allows for intimacy. Okay, so let's just imagine this for a second. Let's imagine I walk into the classroom. And if I'm feeling completely overwhelmed because I'm swimming in a sea of emotions, that's not actually intimacy because I'm not actually making a distinction or a separation between my selfhood and the selfhood of the others in the room.
I'm not honoring that distinction. I'm not giving them the opportunity to reveal or not reveal what they're experiencing. And I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm experiencing this thing that exhausts me. So it's like my whole self has filled up the room and it's left no room for other people to have a self and it's left no room for a relationship, right?
So no wonder it's exhausting. And so that seeing language as a membrane that distinguishes the self from the other who's actually kind of a therapeutic move on my part, because as it turns out, the thing that I just described is something that could be called boundary issues, who would have guessed? And so, and so that, that sort of like academic approach is to say, Oh, what if language, what if intimacy isn't better than the structure of language, and what if language is the mechanism by which selfhood is produced? Now the idea that language is the mechanism by which selfhood is produced is not new.
It's what I was immersed in. It was what I was studying with Foucault when he was describing ways in which language produces this necessity to be a self with all of the difficulties that that produces. Once you're a self, you then have to control your movements. You have to think in terms of how you're being judged.
You have to confess your sins as an example. If you are a self, you have to reveal stuff about you that, you know, that your doctor is asking, your priest is asking, your therapist is asking, et cetera, you have to prove yourself, you have to get the grade, et cetera. So Foucault is very helpfully explaining how that is an oppressive mechanism, but it need not be an oppressive mechanism in my mind. It mostly is.
Let's be clear that it need not be that if we lived in a social structure where we were honoring the membrane that distinguishes self from other, and we were not making requirements of other, and we weren't making requirements of self other than the simple requirement to exist. So, you know, that's kind of it's kind of a lot to learn by oversharing and a question about weaknesses. Let's just move now to the question about what to do learn during COVID, which for me is vaguely related, because if anything that I've just said about that kind of over empathizing about issues and soaking up all the energy of the room, if you like, and feeling like we need to take a hot bath every time of the social encounter, then if you're like me, if that's something you can kind of, some elements of that you can resonate with, then you might have actually appreciated the lockdown element of COVID. And I'm not at all by any means suggesting that anyone appreciated the dangers of COVID and the lethality, if you like a COVID, the fact that people were dying and the fact that people have become very, very ill, and the fact that, you know, lots of people, you know, had lots of material losses because of COVID.
So, I don't, I don't think anybody is in that situation, I hope anyway. But, but, but, but just at a simple level of when you just weren't allowed to leave the house, like you could leave the house to go for a walk and to do your shot and to do your super, like your food shopping. And otherwise, you stay in the house. There, if you, if you have that kind of introversion that I've just described with that over empathy element or the boundary issues, you might have given it depending on what your living situation was, and of course, that's another big tragedy of COVID.
But if you have a pretty comfortable living situation, like you live among loving people or you live alone in a loving way, then you might have like me appreciated that. Like, you just have to stay home. And it's kind of like, wow, that's, that's what I really just want to do all the time, because there's more safety for me. And, of course, I was doing everything that I would ordinarily do.
I was still researching. I was still teaching. But online teaching for me, and I know a lot of people really hated it, but for me, I, I really loved it. And I still love it.
And it's directly linked to the thing that I have described as my weakness, which is that the online space creates a barrier that is useful for me, that doesn't exist in the same way in a physical classroom, unless I do extra work, which I'm learning to do. But in any case, you know, I used to, you know, I actually, students with, you know, often colleagues thought that the students don't have their cameras on that side of the thing. And I just turn your cameras off, just turn your cameras off. I know a lot of my colleagues didn't enjoy sort of seeing all the blank screens.
And I was okay with the blank screens, because what did the blank screen have on it? You take a picture of Zoom call and if people have their cameras off, it just has the person's name on it. And the name was like, enough information for me. Do you know what I mean?
Because if it's like, with a second, I see a body and a face and, and, and everything, you know, I feel like I've got all this extra information. Whereas a name says to me, Ah, Ed, or Jane, or Sophia, or Samira, or Ahmed, it's like I, I've gotten the name, and I associate the name with that person. And I honor that person, that person with that name. And their moods and their emotions and their feelings and whether or not they're listening to me, whether they understand or you know, I am leading that to them, they are behind that box.
And they've got this lovely chat function where they can type in, Jodi, I didn't understand what you just said. And then I can respond to that. So for me, like all of the extra noise got reduced, and everything felt easier to deal with, because the self became a box with a name on it. Right?
And so the, so that was one thing I learned about COVID. Now, like I said, I'm doing a bit better in the classroom these days, and I suspect if you've ever, if you've ever been taught by me, just keep in mind, I really, really, really love being in the classroom with you. And I really love teaching you. And, but, and I'm working on that element of absorbing too much information.
The other thing in during COVID is that I did actually learn a fair amount about viruses. And this is relevant to the stuff I'm talking about, believe it or not. And I learned about it because I think a lot of us were learning about viruses and also just was interested. And part of it was like, okay, here we are, we're hand washing all the time.
And obviously, we're hand washing to, to get the viruses off of our hands, because our hands are everywhere and our hands go and our mouths and our hands go on our faces and all that type of thing. But what's actually happening is you probably know is that when you are washing your hands, it's the soap, the interaction of the, the fat in the soap is interacting with the fat in what's called the viral envelope. So coronavirus is an RNA sequence that's, that needs to have, needs to be encapsulated within this envelope so that it can penetrate the cell membrane of a toast. And then once it's like any virus, once it's penetrated the cell membrane or if it's a virus affecting plants, or the cell wall, once it gets in there, the code of either the DNA or the RNA can start sort of doing its quote unquote magic, it's black magic, which is it rearranges the DNA in there and gives it all new information and new instructions.
If you like it, the new instructions are creating more virus, creating more virus, creating more virus. And so what soap is doing is it's not, it's not destroying the nucleotides that comprise the RNA or if it's a DNA virus, it's not, it's not destroying those nucleotides, it's simply destroying the envelope. And so the, the nucleotides can't, can't get in to the host, they can't, they need to be surrounded, they need to be encapsulated in order to actually enter into the, into the host cells. So isn't that interesting?
I like to think of the self as the membrane or sometimes I think it has the empty space inside the membrane, but language creates this membrane, self it is this membrane that separates, you know, what the self from the other. And it's the same as the virus, isn't it? Like the virus is this information that is in the form of particular types of nucleotides. And they are surrounded by this membrane, this envelope, that and without that, they no longer exist as a distinct entity.
And they need that in order to, you know, enter into the host and effectively quote unquote, come alive. So here's another interesting thing about viruses that we're, you know, we're talking about RNA, we're talking about DNA and we know that all of our cells and contain this in our, the nucleus is of all of our cells. And we also know that each species has its own unique genome and we know that we can, and we know that's been mapped for the human. And we also know that each human being, each individual has their own genetic blueprint with the exception of like the lead identical twins and triplets, etc.
But, but yeah, so we've, so we've got these sort of unique genetic imprints and that the, the human genome is has been completely mapped. So here's the thing, did you know that 8% of your genome of the human genome is viral in origin? Meaning those are viral genes. Like those are, that is those are viruses that can that form those parts of our code.
And what happened is apparently is that, you know, our ancestors millions of years ago got infected by these viruses and the nucleotides of the DNA or the RNA become encoded within some, you know, some of these, these host, these are, are ancestors, are sort of primate ancestors. And then they sort of become part of the genome. And this happens not just in humans, it happens in plants, it happens in animals. And so like the viral codes, the viral DNA may have come from other animals or plants or whatever.
So like the virus is changed by being in the host, the virus code shifts. And then when it infects the host, it has the capacity to affect, to sort of transport like plant or other species nucleotide sequences into the new host. So it's like weaving these new genetic codes into the genome. And the, I was, I was, I've been reading work by Frank Ryan on viruses.
So he's written a lot of work on viruses, he's based at the University of Sheffield, he wrote one called viral vision. And in that he explores the ways in which natural selection itself is not enough to explain the changes that will have had to occur genetically in order for evolution to take place. But viral genetic changes can explain it because it happens so much more quickly. Whereas with natural selection, it's this notion of there have to be these kind of like rogue genes that go a little bit wrong, but they're not being beneficial, etc.
Whereas viruses moving in and out of species, sort of weaving in the codes from other animals, other plants, other species, etc. That happens a lot quicker. So it can help us understand how evolution happened, you know, more quickly than would be accounted for by just random, random changes or random code errors. So isn't that interesting?
And here's another thing about viruses that were interesting, which is that there are these things called large language models. So this is like artificial intelligence that explores language. And that can be used to explore something like explore viruses and how viruses are going to adapt and change. Because we know how quickly new variants are created, how quickly the codes shift.
And what sciences can do is create software that explores all the sequences of the viruses by automatically processing them as if they were sentences in a language, and then recognizing the patterns and automatically kind of processing those and being able to predict from those patterns what new patterns are likely to emerge. So it treats the virus and the nucleotides of the virus as a language with massive, massive, massively long sentences. And then it explores the patterns and those to see what's likely to come next. So that's interesting too.
And as you'll have noticed, the things that interest me most are this combination of code sequence syntax, which is syntax just means sequences of constituents in a language, words or phrases and whatnot. But also the notion of the membrane. Those are all the things about viruses that coincide with the way I think about language. And this is why they've caught my attention.
So I've written a story specifically about the large language models, because I think I was reading about how the people who developed the language model had had won a prize for their efforts, the one that was able to predict the next new variants of COVID. And so I'm just going to read you the stories very quick. It's available on my grammar for Dreamers blog, which is at grammarfordreamers.com. And the story is called To Meet You.
You'll wake Ellie Mat warned, but Rosa was too giddy from the ceremony to heed. She headed Tipsily upstairs to check on their three-year-old while Matt paid the babysitter. Did you win the prize, Mama? Ellie asked.
Her eyes drunk with sleep. We sure did, baby. Rosa said the pride in her voice unmatched by the confusion on her daughter's face. How did you win it?
What did you make? The hour was too late for an explanation of how artificial intelligence software can draw upon large language models to predict new strains in the most recent pathogen. But Rosa knew how well her daughter had been schooled in the basics of virology. Not through her own educated efforts.
It was just the way of things now. We made something to teach us about the virus, she said, a computer that helped us learn its language. So now you can talk to it, and it can tell you stories. Rosa geared herself up to clarify, but Ellie, enchanted by the idea of rock on two viruses, had already drifted back to sleep.
That night Rosa found her own sleep enchanted by fever dreams produced ironically from an infection of the very virus her software was designed to map. Its many variants appeared before her like ridiculously long words in the books of an impossibly large library. Rosa opened one of the books to discover she could not read. Her dream self-channelled the bedtime conversation with Ellie.
What was the point of learning a language if there were new stories to hear? A disembodied voice emerged from the page like RNA shaking off its protein envelope. The words are not the language. The membrane is the language.
She watched it drape itself in the lipid bilayers of her own cells which gave it form. It stood before her, strangely familiar. There you are, she said her heart swelling with recognition and welcome. Nice to meet you, said the word, now alive, now itself.
It extended its arm to the vast tombs of the expansive library before her, each book a story of her own life as yet unread. So the idea there, this notion of what have you learned from COVID, well this idea that viral codes can make their way into our own coded system and eventually sort of make up something like 8% of our genome. This idea that being introduced to another and in this case a potentially pathogenic other, so often the very things that we least want to incorporate into ourselves, the things that seem threatening or seem like they're going to harm us, these others and those could be pathogens or they could be things that we perceive as pathogens, people that we think we don't have anything in common with, people that somehow threaten us or ideas that somehow threaten us or other belief systems that we think are harmful that we need to build up other belief systems to support ourselves against. So this idea that that can be incorporated into the self is effectively what this story is about but it's the process of how it is incorporated and the process comes through I hope anyway in this recognition and this recognition that this pathogen that has infected Rosa's body is presenting itself as a self, you know the disembodied voice and she says there you are and her heart falls with recognition and welcome and the word says nice to meet you and so there's two of them there and they are in conversation and the second that conversation happens in this case between the virus and between the self that is Rosa then suddenly a whole new world emerges which is to say a moment before for Rosa when DNA or sorry when viruses were nothing but these long long long sentences like these sentences that could not be read, these sentences that needed to be processed automatically and digitally by computers and software and that her daughter said well if that's a language what's the point of it, they can't even tell you a story well what's required for someone to tell you a story there needs to be someone, you know there needs to be an aerator, there needs to be a self and then that self effectively will probably tell you will probably construct other selves so the story produces other selves.
A language without selfhood according to the little girl is pointless but what a language with selfhood can do is allow for the possibility of integration of other ideas, different ideas, different qualities, etc and that is this notion of intimacy and so what Rosa gets to discover when she has this intimate encounter with a virus is she gets to discover these other aspects of herself so when you think back to the questions about what did you learn from COVID and what are your weaknesses or whatever effectively if you treat them as like there are a few questions rather than interview questions we can say how do I think about the thing that I most wanted to do zone and how do I encapsulate it in a membrane so that I can be in relationship with it and in that relationship how does my own membrane expand to incorporate this new coded information and that's again that's what the the story is meant to reveal or meant to explore and so I like to think about this notion that we are also in relationship with our own bodies okay so that's another thing that Vuco discusses at length and especially about how oppressive society has this kind of disciplining role over the body and that is I think something we really had to come to terms with when when COVID came around is that you know our bodies were like at risk of being infected and our lungs were potentially going to flow up with fluid we were not potentially we were in a position where we wouldn't be able to breathe and we had to keep our bodies sort of safe from other people's bodies and we could be an intimate connection with them for fear and infection etc and so the virus has this impact on the body by entering into it and I'm just going to ask you to do one more sort of extrapolation which is human language and its relationship to the body and if we think in terms of human language being a membrane that creates itself then that membrane however it is produced whether it's produced by an oppressive society or whether it's produced by a supportive honoring society that membrane can enter in as well to the human body and that membrane can affect the behaviors that the human body engages in so like if the human body is hungry the membrane of the self might have entered in and changed its coding so it says no you're not really hungry if you eat you will get fat for instance and so the human language can act like a virus it can change the wiring of the body it can convince the body of things that without human language the body would not believe and so if we see human language as a virus and we see how it has potentially infected our bodies and by human language we also need discourse and we also need culture we also need society we also need oppression we see how it can infect our bodies and cause our bodies to act in ways or to self-regulate or to cause problems etc we can also see how human language has had that impact on the body the larger body which is the earth and the environment and we can see how human language has imposed itself like a virus on these things and we are in a very very good position now to think if we're going to infect the material world if human language is going to affect the materiality of the world the materiality of the body the materiality of the earth can it do so in a way that is symbiotic rather than parasitic and obviously I think we can it's the whole reason that I do these things because I'm so hopeful and optimistic and I think that the way we do it is through the honoring and through the intimacy through the respect of selfhood and through the respect of others and through a willingness to integrate and to distinguish before integrating and then to distinguish again after integrating so for me it really is you know a boundary issue in other words it's a membrane issue which is to say how do I honor the membrane of the self how do I honor the membrane of the other how do I honor the membranes of my body how do I honor the membranes of the living world and the non-living world that is the materiality that surrounds me so I hope that you've got something from the episode today I really really appreciate you making it this far and listening to my story listening to my ideas I'm just very grateful you're listening I'm just thrilled that you're listening if you'd like a little bit more you can go to grammarfordreamers.com and that's where my blog is you can find the story that I read today to meet me and other linguistics inspired stories you can also go to grammarfordreamers.com and there's a couple of options for you about there's a course you can sign up for free course and some other free stuff you can join my newsletter there if you'd like I've been a little bit quiet on social media these days however I do pop up there from time to time so on Instagram at grammar for dreamers facebook grammar for dreamers and on twitter I'm at jodyclarklinglng and so if you subscribe to it and you'll find my favorite it's your favorite podcasting platform and if you'd like to read and review it that would be great as well just in case there's other people out there who would like to know about the Texas summer talk about and if you'd like to let other people know that would be great too thanks again and I'll talk to you next time bye bye