Hello and welcome to sitcom gigs I'm James Kerry and there was no day count here He has been presumably taking hostage or something and in his place is the wonderful Lucy and young hello James Thanks for having me. It's wonderful to have you on the show We work together briefly on boost own for two. Did we not all too briefly? Yeah, I mean to do some punch-up work somewhere deep in the in the sewers beneath.
Yes, cvc Television Center, right? I think it was BBC comedy BBC comedy Yeah, there was a building that they occupied which was possibly the least funny building in London Oh, yes, it's like some kind of prison that yeah members of the suicide squad would be kept in It was what we were. Can you think that's exactly and I always think it looks like an outpost at the home office as a building I've never seen no longer use it, but whatever building they're in they always managed to find the least funny rooms with no windows And I'm coming up in them strip lighting and of course comedy writers are the most hygienic people and when you bring in You know some food from yeah, yeah, it's great. Yeah, yeah, absolutely Yeah, so we worked briefly together on that we had had lots of fun just basically making jokes about scripts was just a good fun I do remember a joke that we that Richard and I have subsequently said to each other quite a lot Which is the idea that a cat that you would mention something relatively obscure and then the character would look to camera and just go go go late Yeah, I mean I think when you've been a comedy writer for a little while you like nothing more than kind of insulting the audience Challenging them being willfully obscure.
Yeah. Yeah. No, so that's what gets us through the day Absolutely. Yes, and then you sort of leaving the stuff that you can bear to show another human being Cool well, and the thing that I suddenly realized we have to talk about most is very is very recently on Twitter You revealed the fact that h-11 you wrote a spec Fraser script.
Yes, probably start there. Yeah Bully that's cool Yes, I think I'm I think I'm maybe the only person in comedy who was unpopular at school and had trouble attracting girls and things like that Yeah, no, I was a very weird kid and I became obsessed with Frasier which was constantly on a loop on Channel 4 and I think Frasier was the absolute perfect show for a kind of annoying precocious Yeah, boy. Yeah, who wanted to feel superior to his more athletic classmates Because you know every every joke and it's like oh niles. Yes production of the Travis exquisite Yes, whatever and the thing is you don't have to have any emotional maturity or anything like that to kind of look it up and understand it Yeah, and feel that little swell of oh, I'm enjoying sophisticated comedy.
Yeah, yeah All the jokes also sound like jokes. Yes. Well, that's the thing I realized subsequently that's so brilliant about it Like you don't actually have to know anything about opera no fine. Whatever.
They're all classic universal jokes. It's always like oh Frasier I was at the opera the other day and I fell over at my bottom and you'll have that kick of oh, I laughed at a joke about opera Yes, exactly. Yeah, and it's just it's completely not about opera and Fraser that reminds me Fraser's got one of my favorite jokes in it Of all time, I think it's sort of funny on about five levels Series five I think there's a fancy dress party and it's Gil is dressed as is like a native warrior of some sort and Marty is dressed as Sherlock Holmes and They had this conversation and at the end of it He says what are you supposed to be and he says oh and the last of the Mohicans and to which Martin replies? Well, that's that mystery solved Yeah, I mean that the weapons great joke.
That's incredible and bears out my theory that all the best jokes in Fraser about being gay Like I like to imagine most of the writers of Fraser were either gay or Jewish. Yeah, and they're writing this sort of straight Presumably Protestant I guess yeah, you know whatever family and yet every week they're like confused for a gay person or confused for a Jewish person Or like this trying to get to the opera. Yeah, definitely yeah, yeah, yeah Yeah, so I would watch it obsessively. I'm a very obsessive person which I think is another common sitcom writer trope And I've always been quite a good mimic.
I guess yeah I very much had like Fraser and Niles and Martin's voices in my head less so Daphne because it's a very annoying foe man Yes, exactly as is quite a dr. Cray There's that and then so I have a weirdly Scottish brother who is massive. Oh, yeah Yeah, yeah, cuz they had a brother and it was a Robocultrain was about so Robbie Carlisle, which may be bad. Oh, yes Possibly if you'd be in And American But then went on to be in without a trace or something like that, but yeah, he'll always be Definitely unconvincingly my union brother.
Yes to sitcom die-hard fans He certainly will be I mean it's a great place to start as a sitcom in terms of if you're gonna get into one show Then you know as we're talking earlier just reminded me when we talk to Jason Hasely About sitcoms and writing generally he is also a musician and he talks about how much jokes are like music And that really comes across in Frazier where as I say the stuff that is a joke has the rhythm of a joke Yeah, they're like these sort of comedic areas. Yeah, I almost think with the very best sitcoms You could almost do an episode that was just the noises that the character makes like the characters making like those Kind of if it was Seinfeld it'd be like whoa And then you know George coming on You know, it's those rhythms that just sort of burrow their way into your brain And the thing is what I was saying before about Frazier being this kind of pretentious CUD sitcom the thing is I might have enjoyed it for that reason or thought I enjoyed it for that reason back then by look back now And it still is basically my favorite sitcom. Yeah of all time partly cuz I have that connection But also you realize no what made it great wasn't the sort of references to Carl Jung. Yeah, whatever It's the beautifully drawn characters.
Yeah, the family dynamic Like I find the sort of relationship between the boys and the blue collar father so affecting yeah And so that was very much like I guess at the back of my mind probably when I was watching it. Yeah, but um But yeah, so why did I write an episode of it? Well, I had too much time on my hands clearly Wasn't out there playing with the other kids. Yeah, but you know, I think I remember in a previous episode I think of this show the one with Toby Davis.
Oh, yeah, David something. Yeah, the one with Toby Davis You just edit that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, um, you talked about how if you're really obsessed with comedy Like the only way that you can truly understand it's trying to yourself And so I think it was partly that yeah trying to understand why I was so preoccupied with this show and so I sat down at my family computer No laptops. No, then and I wrote an episode featuring Frazier's agent.
Yeah, he glazers a very good character excellent character And the episode was called to be be be or not to be be really entitled alone is worth worth a screen credit or something. Oh, well, that's the thing I wrote it and I persuaded my parents to I guess help me post it to NBC. Yeah, never heard back. No, it's still very bitter Could be my big break.
Yes, still could be. Yes. Yes, please call me. Yeah, that's the thing I was helping my mom move flats a while ago, okay And I was going through boxes of my little things and you know half of them are just school reports saying that you didn't pay enough attention And it's just making a lot of jokes in class But in between all of that I found this old script that was just at the top It just written like a word document not format at all, but it just said Frazier And so hello and it all came flooding back to me And I read through it and it really started making me laugh and it was an interesting kind of laughter because it was a mixture of you know Oh, these jokes are kind of all right.
Yeah, so just surprisingly all right But also it is absolutely hilarious that my 11 year old brain a could do this would be like was inclined to yeah It's so strange. I was it the right length and stuff? Oh, okay, it was like 13 pages Yeah, so not a broadcast in broadcaster It's good though, isn't it? That's a lot especially when you're 11 which I think my kids are 8 and 10 I can't imagine them writing 13 pages.
Yeah, well, I mean again, that's a testament to the sort of obsessive nature But yes, I was reading through it and thinking you know I wonder I wonder if anyone else did stuff like this when they were a kid and the thing is I I go on Twitter a lot like we all do to distract ourselves and I found especially in the kind of weirder kind of more history comedy parts of Twitter Loads of people reference Frazier. Yeah, there are loads of Frazier memes Yeah, and sort of quite esoteric in depth Yeah, and so I was thinking oh I must not be alone. There must be a lot of people of my generation who in Frazier was a sort of formative Yeah, show and so I thought well, why don't I just tweet a page like just a photograph page of this ridiculous script I wrote on a daily basis and I'm currently up to page eight. I think okay, and the response has been good I think Frazier.
I mean a lot of people are just going what the hell were you? Yeah I mean, yeah, I mean it reminded me that I wrote a spec script But because I think I've ordered one of your tweets and commented I wrote a spec black had a script and But I think I was 17. I think I just started my gap here because I left school at 17 turning 18 as it were October and And yeah, I suspect I suspect it still exists somewhere the computer It was on is now long long in landfill. I'm sure but it was set in 1066 and all I remember about it is that somehow Baldrick Was responsible for Harold being shot in the eye I think or for causing black added to shoot Harold in the eye or something like that You've got to find it.
Yeah, Netflix is bringing everything back. Absolutely. I'll advise it Well, that's a bit only a couple of years after series four I'd gone out because I see watch the end where they go over the top Yes, I'm on full piano music and you're like now. I've got it.
I've got it. Yes go back That was not a decent ending I have to go back. Yes, that's right. Yes, it's right This cannot be allowed to stand no So I just thought you have to go back to 1066 because that is the obvious or defining moment I'm actually I think it still would be in terms of especially in our sort of brexity times because obviously being taken over by French-speaking people or Normans speaking people there was a sort of a similarity there.
That's not me pitching a show and An alternative you're listening to this. Yes, exactly. I don't know why you wouldn't be Absolutely absolutely absolutely. Well, we're great at getting on the show actually So at that point do you think your your path was set because in my case I was writing that script in the year probably 1993 and this was pre-internet pre-meaningful internet and Being a writer sort of wasn't really a thing and he sort of didn't know anyone He was a writer and you couldn't really get access to it and writing was something that other people did But is it the case because you're probably over a decade younger than me That you were sort of aware of this writing phenomenon from quite a young age.
I suppose so I mean, you know I didn't have any family connections or anything like that I don't know maybe I saw a couple of shows where they were behind the scenes Type things but I remember I bought two different books of Frasier scripts Right was called the best of Frasier. The other one was called the very best of Frasier and see like oh, that's that's really Restrained of them to save the very best for the second book. Absolutely. Yes.
No, these are really are the best Yeah, and I actually I remember my mum borrowed the best of Frasier from a friend of hers and gave it to me to read And it was absolutely trashed like a fortnight later. I just read it so many times. Yeah, yeah Yeah, and torn and see how I memorize those. I think they had an introduction At the start was the writers talking about okay their process and having a room and things like that I equivalent of a DVD.
Yeah, it was a DVD extra. Yeah in a papyrus. Yeah, but yeah, I didn't know really I don't think I was even thinking about it as a career I was just thinking I want to write an episode of this show I love but then again I sent it to NBC so yeah It must have been part of you. Yeah, yeah There was making some long-term plans.
Yeah, you know still haven't come true. Yeah None of us feel that I mean we spoke to when we interviewed Pete Sinclair who's you know co-wrote lead balloon and has been writing bad move and works with Jack D And it's been a comedy writer for 20 30 years. Well, I thought we 30 30 years plus You know, we said do you feel like you've made it? It's like no feel that any day now I'm gonna get tap on the shoulder and I'm going to be shepherded back into the factory where I'm Into from which I've obviously escaped.
I think there's kind of an existential point in there which which is we're all these Obsessive little Greeks and we basically see something that makes our heads explode Yeah, and we go that is the coolest thing that's ever happened I have to be involved in that and for me it was Frazier It was a very boring thing to say but the Simpsons which is basically the Beatles of comedy Yeah, you don't get any points for saying you know, but it was a very important show especially series three to ten Yeah, I mean you talk about favorite jokes. There was one specific Simpsons joke I remember that I think just broke my brain It's probably as a as a kid and set me off to this path which was in the episode homey the clown Oh, yes, where Homer trains to be a kind of replacement crusty. I know that I said well. Yes, you've held me back long enough It's not that one is it?
Oh, yeah, I'm going to climb college I don't think any of us expects him to say that. Yeah, it's incredible But this is one like transcendently beautiful joke where the Springfield mafia you know fat home all of them Have tried to kidnap crusty, but instead they've kidnapped Homer Yeah, and so they got in tight to a chair and then crusty bursts into the room And so these two people who look exactly like crusty the ground standing side by side and one of the gangsters rubs his eyes and goes Whoa, I'm seeing double here for crusties And I don't think I even laughed when I saw that right just just sat there and just when that's the best thing I've ever heard What a weirdly specific joke to go on because I don't know because that was it That's got one of my other favorite lines is when his when the father when the grandfather says you've made a sad Italian stereotype very happy Oh, you're not a stereotype. I am It's got so many great Italian jokes. I love to kill such a funny man would be a crime But yeah, he has to throw the bike in the air and swallow it Yeah, so beautiful, but yeah, yeah, and also it shows like that and a bit later on the hour and the day today I think that which were all I think I was coming to late in every case But yeah, they just fascinated me like how do you create this almost nuclear reaction by just putting these daff bits of language Yeah, and using the rhythm and stuff so you know, I wrote this rager script I wrote and recorded my own episode on the hour.
Yeah, and like made my parents be Correspondents like a bit later than that and they were probably more thrills to be involved in that than you would Then I'm now looking back on what what I might have inflicted on my parents and now thinking if one of my kids wanted me to be in a Radio drama that they'd made I'd be absolutely thrilled. I secretly hope they don't become a comedy writer Yeah, the thing is you're a comedy writer so you'd have a higher tolerance for that. No, that's true I mean my parents have often told me I I was insane like I would just be reciting Simpson's okay You know, we're walking along the beach France on holiday, but I did this is all a very rant about way of saying I think the reason why comedy writers never feel like they've made it is because they never got to work on that show Yeah, they loved it's a very good point. Yeah, so yeah I think that's part of why when I uncovered this rager script and realized that the internet was crazy for dr.
Gray Yeah, I'm gonna put this out because it actually has a weirdly emotional resonance Yeah, like there's a joke in Frazier that I feel sums up my entire childhood and subsequent life Yeah, which is in the episode seat of power where Frazier and Niall's are hosting the wine club at their Frasier's apartment and they damage the toilet I think I have to call the plumber in and when they do know realizes that the plumber is his high school bully. Oh, yes play by dr. Cox Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and there's a line in it where Niall's is saying to his bully his former bully, you know How could you abuse someone like that? You know, you made my life in history and the bully says well, dr.
Crane in my defense You were you were coming into school in a tweet jacket with the police. So I think the blame is 50 50 And I certainly throughout school. I was like I'm getting bullied and made fun of and you know I just don't fit in just because I don't play football or whatever And I look back and I'm like I was an obnoxious annoying little kid I mean to be fair my parents call me Lucian and send me to a comprehensive in the northeast So I think we can allocate the blame. Yes, that's right.
It's slightly differently there Yeah, it was yeah, you sort of you come up with this narrative Yeah, you were just this blameless victim and then you realize what's sort of going around school giving it all that Yeah, I'm attention to myself. Yeah, not the bullying's all right. Bullying's bad But no, yeah one one does look back and think yeah, perhaps I brought some of that on to myself Hey, that's what drives you. Yeah towards a life in comedy.
Yeah, well there you go And so and let's talk about that so you you have worked basically in comedy since Presumably you'd sort of left university and I think you didn't go off to get a job at link later or coopers and I brand or whatever They called now. No, I turned them all down. They were desperate to have a I really have an honest graduate. Okay.
No, no I didn't at all everyone from my university applied to work for Ernst and Young as it was then called it's probably called something else now I think I once got a free dinner courtesy of I can't remember they make like soap and stuff. Okay. Yeah, but really Yeah, that one yeah, I want to go on yeah, which was you know, they were barking up the wrong tree Yeah, I just wanted them to food. Yeah, but yeah, I so again with the obsessive thing Another big influence on me growing up with Stephen Fry.
Okay, I think I saw him on you know QI Yeah, well this guy's using long words Okay, making jokes and people like him for it rather than beating him up and so if I just do everything that he did Yeah, then maybe I'll get to that position, you know So I was a kid in more pith in the northeast and to get me not that long after the freshest script. I remember saying to my mom I'm going to Read English at Cambridge. Yeah, and join the Cambridge footlights and be like Stephen Fry. Yeah, my mom sensibly was like Oh, there's a good ambition to have but you know a few steps yeah between yeah, I'm going to join the circus is it No, no, but why do you want to go to Cambridge?
No son of mine. Yes. Yeah, and so but the thing is I did do those things Partly because of my kind of obsessive memory skills. Maybe quite good at doing exams Yeah, which is I was actually Stephen Fry like because he's often quick to say people say he's intelligent And he says I have an exceptional memory and actually doesn't consider himself to be particularly intelligent Which I think is probably not stupid.
No, no, he's a very recollection of knowledge, which is a different thing, isn't it? Yeah, definitely I mean I got a very high mark in my French GCSE's or whatever I can barely speak a word of it. Yeah, now I always just able to cram really well and learn a bunch of phrases Yeah, and I think it's very true in fact I think that's a lot of why our country's in the state is now because the oxygen bridge system privileges people who are able to Master a brief really quickly. Yeah, and then just black yeah, talk knowledge about stuff.
They don't really care about it So you end up with people going oh, okay now. I'm the minister for defense And I know all about the army based on you know Boris Johnson Should have been in footlights the world would be a better place Yes, we're pursuing a create an actual comedy rather than Into it which is hosting Yes, and now he sort of has a pretty great that sort of resembles performance art in some way, but yeah exactly we don't Like Trump you don't want entertainment people going into politics. No true or vice versa. No, that's also true.
Yes. I yeah, so It's yeah, I wouldn't I wouldn't call myself a particularly intelligent person I've just got this okay It's this sort of intense focus about things that they're about yeah, and that was enough to get me to Cambridge Yeah, which was very fortunate and I was very one track minded about you know Doing the smokers yes, they called these hour-long Knights of new comedy and yeah, I basically I wasn't a very good performer I would write a lot and just kept throwing myself at it right because the expectation that you would perform your own material Did you sort of team up and start writing for other people or yeah? I think there's a basic understanding that you would perform your own material right just To so that people knew it was your yes, and I guess when you starting out you don't really have your co-writes Yeah, those relationships build up and I think some people think with footlights which is in many ways a kind of ludicrous and anachronistic institution I think a lot of people think that you know Hugh Laurie will come back and have dinner with you Yeah, I have a hotline to John cliche. Yeah, and it's absolutely not like that No, it's just a student yeah comedy group But because of its name you get good audience and you get good slot and you get them which is huge by that's a huge privilege Yeah, I was very aware of it Yeah, but actually the thing you get more than anything else which I'm always quite keen to resist people knocking oxbridge But even though Cambridge rejected me twice and I wanted to go to Cambridge because of the footlights Yeah, I think most of the people I was in foot like kind of yeah at the back of their minds That was and I would have probably been there with with Mitchell or web or something like that and apartment evidence and those kinds of guys They're sort of my my generation roughly But actually the thing that I then was able to manufacture slightly at Durham University where I ended up going was I did three years worth of comedy and I did two or three shows a year of writing and performing I didn't perform so much I ended up becoming president of the review and again going to Durham University It does not open doors for you comedically, but what it does do is it gives you a sort of a six or seven year head start on performing comedy in front of strangers yeah, and that for me That's the advantage of it and it one sense the fact that it's came just neither here nor there if the University of Demonta or however had a heritage of doing this and there are now other comedy groups And I just saw on Twitter the Facebook that the Durham review just did a combined show with the University of Leeds Review and St Andrews.
I think all right, so it is a thing. Oh, yes The absolute funniest people in my generation genuine like geniuses came out of those yeah clubs at other universities like the Bristol Review Right, I was in the footlights store show had Jamie to me true Charlotte Richie It's really yeah, all sorts brilliant people when I was in so what we did combined shows with Bristol University and That was basically Marcus Brickstock, Danny Robinson Dan Tetsall three professional comedians now And it's really nice actually but again, you know that's all about the Oxford system So in one sense, obviously it's one in a graduate system, but now 50% school he was a game to university So I think for me I think like was it was mainly just a word it was like a Batsignal yeah, you know for weird comedy nerds Yeah, and we all gravitated towards it and the really valuable thing apart from as you say getting to go up on a stage and be rubbish in front of a Quite sympathetic audience. Yeah, which is invaluable The other thing was just meeting the people that I have worked with since in some cases and yeah learning how to collaborate and team Yeah, so after graduating I Eventually moved to London after I saved up enough money and I did the Edinburgh festival a couple of times I did these kind of narrative action comedy shows called Armageddon apocalypse Okay, the explosioning and Armageddon apocalypse throughout the level dead right and I didn't stumble over it when I was No, you'd never get them in no after that and during that time I was kind of learning how to write properly right which I'd say the difference between that and writing before then is I had to just sort of Learn how to sit down and work basically office hours. Yeah, and just right even if I fell you know Glum or tired or whatever and just treat it as a job.
Yeah, and I was tutoring to pay the bills at the same time and then I was very lucky in that a Friend and someone I'd worked with called Keith Akushi got a Sean BBC three called siblings And he decided he wanted to assemble a writer's room for it So he brought in me yeah, Darren Johnson who's also in the sketch of sheeps and Joe Parram who I still write with quite a lot today And we were so lucky because we were you know We're all in our early to mid 20s. Yeah, and we had a chance to to collaborate really heavily on making yeah two series of a show We really really enjoy yeah, and yeah, that must have felt really really special I mean did you feel that you were sort of left alone just to get on with it or I Think we were working with a company called walk who did the in-betweeners and now they're called fudge park That's not an improvement. I don't think is a name. I couldn't comment They've been very good to me.
Absolutely. Yes, it's right. Yeah, but I will call them sir I'll say so ask me to you in Damon if you're listening I didn't say anything was all Jim Yeah, it was great experience. It was really thrilling you know as you know you spend so much time on like development and writing scripts that no humans will ever eat just commissioners and producers and To just to be writing something and to know there is a time limit here and something will get made people will see yeah The general public that was really exciting and it felt like we were learning on the job and I produced Phil Gilbert Which was really great and supportive and often advice, but also hurting us go off on the tangents and we took it to some dark places Yeah, we're all watching quite a lot of it's always an infillatellifier Yeah, that gets quite dark quite quick.
Yeah. Yeah, and so we were taking it to to strange areas And obviously Charlotte and Jordan. Yeah, the start of it is so good. You knew that whatever you threw their way they'd make it Yeah, yeah, yeah, so it was it was kind of a dream come true and plus they paid for lunch every day That's a long way, doesn't it sometimes weed order like huge kebabs like meals from the Turkish place and the afternoon would be a Right?
Yeah, it's just like meat sweats. Yeah, yeah, and that's one of the upsides of going for an indie an independent production company Well, actually potentially by your lunch the BBC will not will not buy your lunch They may subsidize your lunch in the canteen, but they will not buy your lunch They do give you a car and stuff like that and pay you know million per day. Oh, yeah, if the Daily Mail's listening, please I write an article. Yeah, so yeah, that's a real buzz and it is worth pointing out I mean it feels like one of those things it's a luxury to complain about but when you're in the throes of a show That's actually being on it is quite you can quite quick to wish it away as well and I was having to reassure a writer Very recently he was struggling with with a show and the you know deadlines and that kind of stuff I did sort of say bear in mind the privilege and luxury of writing scripts are actually gonna get made and be shown to the public Yeah, it's very easy to sort of go oh, I wish I could just sort of do something else or stop doing this show It's like whoa, you know That's why we wanted to do a full series of bluestone because although it was hard work Just thought we've actually got a formula here that some people at least seem to like and wouldn't it be great to do more of it?
And in the end we didn't want to because we didn't quite hit the right numbers or the right demographics and stuff But you know we've had a we've had a fair of crack it It but we were aware that it might take us another five ten fifteen years to get another show on television We wanted a third series for siblings, but I think we slightly Scubbing ourselves by writing an incredibly bizarre and messed up final episode to series to which was kind of a mixture of like Fest and right and like a guarantee, okay Yeah It was right about the time that BBC three was having a bit of a crisis of we going off to online instead of we absolutely fell Between the two stores of like the the the pre-dish layer Yeah, yeah, yeah, but you know it's a show really really proud. Yeah, and yeah as you say I think if I'd want bit of advice for aspiring writers It's you know you should know that 90% of being a writer isn't like proper writing Yeah, it's like trying to get to the point where you can do the proper Absolutely, and then you can as I was doing before we started recording just complaining about your deadlines and just Talk about how sleep deprived you are. Yes, there's only a handful of writers in the UK for whom the majority of the stuff They write is actually being made I mean you're talking sort of Sally Abbott and Steven Moffat and you know Sally Wainwright and all those sorts of people there might be a Curio yeah, and and Ben Elton presumably and that kind of stuff So it's a quite short list and so therefore you have to really want to do it and love and actually Going back to how you almost started it you have to love comedy to get you through that because otherwise it's just it's Fipping hard work. Oh, yeah, it's not a get rich quicksy.
No, I mean it might be a get rich scheme at some point Yeah, but no way to that to kick in but in a way you get to do stuff other people would actually probably pay money to do Oh, yeah, I'm very conscious when I talk to my friends who you know are getting paid a lot more Mm-hmm than I am. They're just like oh, it must be so great to just be able to come up with stupid jokes all day Yeah, I'll just be like, you know, well less of the stupid But then I'll catch myself and go yeah, it is actually yeah, it's it's brilliant and for all the many procedural frustrations And you know also just writing. Yeah, it's very difficult remember I read an interview with Joss Whedon we were saying man I love writing like it's my favorite thing to just sit down and I just go into a trance and just blissful and I was like you Monster what are you talking about? Yeah, there are two types of writer though?
I think I don't know which is the bigger camp But I think I probably guess because we asked John Finn more this question You know, do you when we had our live episode? Do you are you the sort of writer who likes writing or who likes having written right? Yeah, and I think a lot of writers will probably say the latter that they like the idea of having written Oh, yeah, 100% yeah the latter I think that's that applies to loads of things. Yeah, I mean I look back almost every period in my life And I think that was all right really with a few exceptions and but at the time I'm just sort of riven with all this you know Self-doubt.
Yeah, I'm I doing the right thing and it's a terrible scenario But yeah, but then you look back and you know, I will I make some stuff and I made some friends Yeah, but so the other string to your bow then is as it were also just writing for the sheer hell of it because you in order to write books You also have to enjoy writing above making money So at what point would you start to be start to write books as well and obviously Shakespearean sonnets which have been turned into a book and that kind of thing? I'm sure well, I you know So I worked on siblings and then a few other sort of BBC three shows and I did a bit of work on murder and success film and I made a Feed BBC three comedy feed shout out to the limbo gang And you know, so the TV stuff was going on but as you know, it's most of us just hurling pages into the abyss I'm hoping that something comes back. Yeah, yeah, sometimes you're paid and sometimes you're naughty Yeah, and you're very rarely paid in a timely fashion. Yeah, and yes So I was looking for something else to do alongside it ideally creative and I was contacted by an editor at eBree Press Which is an imprinted penguin random house and they had this idea that they wanted to do a sort of humor book like Jason and Joel's Bird yes, yes, they wanted to do humor books a humor book based on sort of Brexit which was Then it was now a big deal But told in the style of Lewis Carroll okay, and Alison Wonderland parody that would be about Brexit called Alison Brexit land Yeah, and they were looking for comedy writer to do that And it was you know, they were quite near the deadline and so I was parachuted in kind of had to at speed Right this book right and what I mean, I mean, you've got you know, you have a track record and you have an agent But do you have any idea how they ended up?
Actually, I'm gonna have to go with the personal connection again. Yeah, because my editor heard asked Joe Parram Okay, who's a friend and writer if he'd be up for doing it and he said it's not quite my sort of Okay, talk to Lucian. Okay. Well, I don't think you need to be I don't need to be coy about that because I think one of the things that I'm always trying to Sort of remind people of is the fact that That you know, you're making friends in the comedy world However, you make them and that these are friends that will be that will be alongside you for a very long time to come And so you know in the case of say, you know, Dan Tetsall, Daniel Robbins or something from the club seals from 20 years ago For Bristol University review, you know, I might get someone say can I do this or do that and I might say Oh, I'll tell you what, you know, we want Dan for this or we want Danny for this or whatever it is Definitely that's not it's not really a networking thing.
So it's always kind of creepy Yeah, it's more just it's good. Yeah to hang out with the people the interest you and that you sort of vibe with yeah And it's good to try writing in lots of different Divinations and you know, I mean Joe's just we worked on siblings together and we'd enjoy bouncing ideas off each other then and so we thought We try and I think also the other thing I've been learning is we've been speaking to me even people like Barry Cryer Is that? Actually what binds lots of comedy writers together is the fact that we all love comedy And so actually if you're offered a job that you just know you can't do for whatever reason you still want it to be a good Work you still want to be a good book, you know I want comedies that I don't write to be funny because I like laughing and I want people I know to be so I don't know how unusual I am in this I'm not quite with the Gore V del It's not enough that I succeed others must fail, which is you know, which has a lot of resonance But I think you know just being aware that it's a relatively small world But you know, but we all know each other and and to be part of that one of the reasons to do the end Refringing to do a show is that you get to meet other people in a similar agent stage or situation and stuff So and that's how these things come about I don't want to turn your podcast into a WTF with I Love comedy and I think the reason I love it is you know, that's a Slightly difficult formative time. It really helped like things like Frazier All the Simpsons like that really made me excited about kind of life and kind of made me ambitious and led to me meeting these people Who were also nerdy in that way?
You can have these great conversations with and I think it's You know, I never really want to be too Careerist about it or talk about comedy like this, you know, serious of stepping stones to being super successful Like all the good things that have happened to me are largely because I have just shared a genuine kind of connection with people I got excited about either shows we love or a show we were trying to make for other people to love and yeah I think that's fundamentally what drives you It's wanting to be that for some kid. Yeah out there somewhere. Yeah looking for something to make them laugh. Yeah, yeah No, I think it's I think we The comedy industry and the sort of the sort of stuff that we do we sort of I think we are aware that lots of listeners sort of want a career in Comedy but actually to get a career in comedy you actually need to love comedy and the career won't look like what you think It is and the moment you're sort of offered things that you might you know That you might have always aspire to you actually realize quite quickly They're not all they're cracked up to me and you've got to be willing to adapt Because as I said like I'm never gonna write on the Simpsons or Frasier I'm never going to be a different fry because like Brian Laurie was of its ties.
Yeah an amazing show Yeah, but you know there isn't that much sketch on TV and you know You've got to step back I think and go what do I love about this and I love the craft of writing and so I found that that was applicable to writing this human book Yeah, I was in Brexit land Which was a really good idea on on Anna my editor's part because so many characters from British political life Yeah onto the Lewis Carroll characters so had like you know Nigel Farage is the Cheshire twat and Trumpty dumped it and Trees and May is the Queen of Hearts and so I wrote that and I worked with a brilliant illustrator called Ollie Mann Okay, who did sort of pastiche as of all the tenille drawings and that came out and quite a few people seemed to like it And so I pitched another idea in the topical comedy literary pastiche vane Which was called Trump's Christmas Carol, right? Which I wrote to come out last Christmas And I'm currently working on a third one for every but I don't know if I'm allowed to say this object Well, we've got enough things there to plug as well and also you've been writing an unbound book as well Oh, yeah, which is your experience on it. So how did that come about? Okay?
Well, we've established on the nerves, right? My other big geeky obsession is literature and particularly poetry and I love formal poetry, you know, metrical poetry. I'm really obsessed with how Effects can be achieved with with rhyme and rhythm and these Constraints that are in a weird way like liberating. I'm not selling this as a comedy thing Anyway, so I had these two quite seemingly desperate interests comedy and sonnetry And I used to again another nerdy kid thing.
I do is write sonnets as a kind of crossword puzzle Yeah, the way they all fit together. So yeah, I was at the slightly send last year And then I thought wouldn't it be funny if I wrote a Shakespearean sonnet about Kim Kardashian and I did write it Yeah, and it was funny. Yeah, I think and then before I knew I'd written a hundred and fifty four more Yes on its on daft anachronistic things. Yeah, so I've got ones on Kim Kardashian snoop dog in the Pikachu Yeah, Ghostbusters.
It's yeah, it's all very mad. Yeah, and I decided that I was gonna try and crowd fund Yeah, via this brilliant site called on bound. Yeah, where people are present. It's sort of a bit like kickstart Yeah, for books.
Yeah for books, but kind of selective. Yeah, they put up all their projects. Yes It's curated rather than you can't not anyone can just do this. Yes.
They want to publish it. Yes, and they're very helpful They'll come up with cover up for you and help you set up all these reward levels. Yeah, you can pledge on so Listening hasn't been completely alienated by me by this point. Please check out hashtag sonnets great on on band.com.
It's a real passion project And I think it's it's the thing I'm most proud of as it's the most personal. Yeah, like weird thing I think you've got to give yourself that you've got to give your submission to weird. Yeah, and you just don't know what's gonna come But as well I think that's the other thing is you I think we again one thing that Writers do the both experienced and inexperienced ones is in our about to go to a writing conference tomorrow And talk to comedy commissioner's controllers and lots of people in the room will basically be here What ideas do you want because I can write those ideas and actually? Annoyingly what they want is the ideas that the writers most want to do that they are able to then broadcast, you know, it's so You know at the moment it's You have lots of ideas, but some ideas have their time and some don't but ultimately it's such hard work getting any book off the ground Or any project off the ground that if you're not enjoying it for its own sake It's just gonna be too hard, isn't it?
What I would say is if if you had any idea how much I hate crowdfunding. Yeah, you'd realize how proud I am But this is honest because it's killing me. So, yeah, please Yes, that's right. Yeah, it's tough.
You have to basically email everyone you've ever met I emailed you. Yes, which is also partly led to this because it reminded me. Oh, we should talk to you. We fantastic on the podcast Oh, thank you.
And here we are. So just wrapping up then what's what is the kind of advice you would you would be giving to the You know, ten years ago version of yourself or the or the version of you that's now kind of starting out or Okay, Lucian. I need you to listen very carefully. I want you to put all of your money I know it's not a lot but put all of it on Jeremy Corbyn becoming leader of the Labour Party in 2050 It's a lot of advice.
I say, you know, adjust your expectations Like it's gonna be tough. Yeah, there's no way around that Kind of accept who you are like don't don't try and do things because you think it'll get a commission Yeah, we think it'll be popular because people can smell falseness. Yeah, in what you're right You just but the older I've got actually the weird weirdly I've become closer to to the 11 year old me who wrote that Phraceous grips I think so I've been able to go okay. I've learned to accept myself a bit more Yeah, I am this weirdness.
Hopefully I can be less annoying than I was as a kid But I'm gonna put out this gracious grip or I'm gonna write 155 sonnets Yeah, and you know if so I'd say to myself don't try to be all cool. I guess maybe don't try and be super cynical Just right what you think's good. Yeah, and I think the chances of it going will be marginally improved Yeah, I think it's because it's easy to sort of tell yourself not to be cynical and to do that and then to say But then to look at what's on TV or the radio just think oh I mean that is a cynical show where they've got so and so to do this with that person or they've had this idea I do and actually it may sound cynical to you, but that may well not be how it was Yeah, there's probably someone's baby. Yeah, I'd actually I'd say that to my decade ago self Who would yeah, I'd watch TV.
I just go this terrible. This is so I can't believe they were given an opportunity to be on TV And this is what they did. Yeah, of course now I realize that making TV shows like piloting an oil super tanker or something Yeah, like there are so many ways that can go wrong Yeah, not your fault and it's impossible to slow it down or start. Yeah.
Yeah, so I'd just say you know I started basically yeah, they're working really hard not hard like someone with a real job like working in a shop or something Or making a hundred cows like my father used to do. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I wish I was not gonna count right now, but it's yeah I've certainly learned the hard way that it is a miracle when TV is good. Yeah, and that's something to be applauded and the attempt is something to be applauded Absolutely, absolutely. And who knows that you know, you might write something that will trigger an 11 year old to write a weird spec script But yeah, there is that moment I mean occasionally I'd go into schools or something I'll go back to my old school or whatever and give a talk about writing comedy And you know that 85% of people are not terribly interested and from my point of view They are sort of impressed that I know Miranda Hart a little bit But actually I know that there is there about three people there in the room for whom me being there It's actually quite a big deal and one of whom I'd actually go on to be a be a comedy writer And just seeing an older version of yourself really he's kind of into the same things that you're into I think it's quite a big quite a big thing But again, it comes down to passion about comedy doesn't it's just loving having a joke that blows your mind like the ones that you've mentioned earlier I think it's good to be passionate about anything really unless it's like, you know, torturing small animals or something If that's you probably not that on there, but well, they might be pests, you know, that's true Yeah, so you think that's how it's a native starter.
Yeah context context is everything absolutely, but you know, I wouldn't I wouldn't trade in my weird obsession Yeah, that's great Thanks so much for being on the podcast. We will put links to Lucy's work in the show notes to have a look But if people watch a day Google if they start start googling stuff about you now Google it They should Google hashtags on it. That's the symbol hashtag out the word. Yeah, they should Google Lucy and young is IEN yeah, and young like the opposite of old Amazon for Excellent and Trump's Christmas cow brilliant cool.
Thanks so much for being on the show Thank you so much for having me and thanks very much listening and we'll speak to you next time. Cheerio