Episode 86 - Saskia Schuster

Hello, welcome to sitcom geeks. We're back at the Clanded No Comedy Festival. I did a clap there at the start of the film. I've lived in Wales for two years and that was a very good book.

Oh, very good. I sort of made up some casual and natural attention to it. I'm obviously here with Dave Cohen. Hello.

And we're also here with Saskia Schuster, who is an ITV in charge of comedy. Your technical job title is... Oh, God, it's controller of comedy, which is horrible. I hate that title.

Yeah, no, it's normal. It's sort of quite nice, though, isn't it? Controller. No, it's either control freak or it's fact-controller.

OK, fair enough, but it is taking back control to use the phrase of the moment that I'm really unsposed. Well, yeah, it doesn't feel like that. So, yes, obviously, you are the person who is kind of overseeing all the comedy that appears on ITV. Could you describe how your job works, basically?

So, I commissioned comedy entertainment, scripted comedy, and comedy drama, the undivinable thing. So, yeah, it's quite different for each of those three things. Script comedy, I suppose, is the first one to talk about because it's always contentious with ITV, because I say little of it, and it's sort of the biggest fight to try and get to do more of it. Do you want to know the kind of commissioning process with it?

Well, roughly, give us a headline in terms of how does it turn up? How does a show turn up on ITV? What has happened to get it to there? OK, so, first thing to say, I don't...

I don't have my own budget. So, whatever turns up, I will then take to Kevin and I go for the main channel, or to perform more to my digital channels. So, usually, it's a treatment, an idea for sample scenes, because it's easier to read something from me to describe it to Kevin. I heard in another session earlier, somebody saying she doesn't really believe that people read treatments really anyway.

They don't read them very well, and actually scenes, which really are. When I was producing this, we were sort of taught, you know, commissions never read things properly, commissions don't know how to read. I don't know where that came from. What basis have I got for the commissioning show unless I've read the writing?

Well, also, the thing is that, once you're in production with something, and if anything, they read them too closely, because I've had notes on various bits and pieces, including a children's show that I'm involved with at the moment, where I've sort of read them as a script editor and I've read something and the channels said, I don't worry about this or bit that, and it's like, oh, is that still in there? Oh, well, if you're going to read all the scripts, what I've done. I'll just put it down. It doesn't mean it's actually, yeah.

I don't know where that sort of comes from, no, commissions don't. I think people like to reject their own failure on to other people. I think that's what I'm talking about. Yeah, because it's easy, because it's also your job, you know, it's where they're getting blown off course too much.

Your job is to say no a lot more than this, to say yes. It is. And it's saying no to stuff that you like, you know, as well as saying yes to stuff that you like. And occasionally, once you're saying yes to stuff that you personally don't care for, you know, people will like, which is obviously a good thing to do if you want to have Catholic taste as it were.

I think what would be interesting certainly from the point of view, our listeners I think as well, is that say the difference between, I mean, I can imagine how a show like Badmove, which has got a big star name attached and has come through a big production company. So I can see how that's going to follow a particular route. But I'm interested in a show like Timewasters, which is, I don't know, Taylor's a great stand-up performer, but not a big name. And there's no big names really attached to the project and he performed it as well.

So I've been interested in doing that show. I get given a sort of package scripts that I take home at the weekend. And what has sort of evolved, it started sort of an error in preparing the package scripts, gave me various scripts without any sort of cover sheet on. And so I didn't know who had written them, which production company sent them in.

And then I actually quite like that approach of just reading things sort of almost. On their own merits. Yeah, exactly. Timewasters was a script that just jumped out to me for being very different, very funny.

And variety to our audiences, 1634, but we particularly look at the 1624 audience share, and all the advertising is focused on that audience. So that's really what counts. So we have to hit that younger audience. And the script did, was very concerned that we start young enough that we can have multiple series, and the show doesn't sort of upgrade the channel.

So it felt like it was hitting that sort of very young sort of end of the market variety of it too. But most of all, it was just funny. It was the funniest script I've read for a while. It's the sort of thing that I could imagine being watched by any age really.

But what I liked about it, apart from the answers, at the time I think the only other script had shown we had on iTunes was PLEPS, which was sort of flat shares in Ancient Rome. And it's sort of very silly, and it's kind of flippin' of no jokes. But it's kind of there's a little bit below the surface of smart takeout, if you want it. There's some very clever references and historical facts in that.

But I think most people wouldn't particularly notice it. But with Timewasters as well, it was fish out of water comedy, it's friendship, it's ensemble. But because it's a group of black jazz musicians travelling back to 1920s London, there's kind of smart takeout about class and gender and race. But it's not gender driven at all.

It is just ultimately silly and fun and about relationships. So how did that script end up in a packet that you were starting with for the weekend? So Daniel had been filming Cockroaches for ITV2, which was actually before I arrived at ITV2. And he gave, it was a big talk that made it.

So he sort of gave producers a script that said this is something I've just been writing. And they sent it in. So you have a relationship with the Raction companies and various people approach you. Yeah.

They then pass on the script and they're going to turn it in. So you have a script that you really like. It was in the case of Timewasters. Presumably you march into someone else's office, flip up the desk and take it.

They're not going to make this show. They're going to make this show. What the hell is the point of even working in comedy? That's exactly how it goes.

Brilliant. So that was... In the parallel universe, that doesn't happen. What does that mean?

Well, that was in the Pete Finchamira where we did actually pilot things. So we made, I think, about four pilots at the time. They're all for non-TX pilots. I think we were looking at Commission 2 series out of four.

So we made pilot with Daniel and absolutely loved it. He had Barumka Roshaun's script editing it. And then we commissioned it. Barumka sort of became co-writer.

And that's partly because... I mean, I think that evolved quite naturally, but it's partly because Daniel... I think it was his first sitcom he'd written, obviously written, loads of sketch and stuff. But some delivering six episodes that are sort of obviously consistent level was not a challenge.

But we didn't necessarily have enough writing time. And I think if you're trying to... Is that difficult? He brought us to kind of want something for a certain date.

You don't want to rush going into production before the scripts are ready. So in that case, it was Barumka just sort of stepping up a bit more. Yeah, and sort of supercharging it. So between giving it the green light as it were, and they started production and broadcast, what sort of times are we looking at there?

I think that one was... I mean, we made the decision quickly, but we did allow quite a lot of time for the writing. I can't remember these. For me, that's a real problem in the industry.

It does often seem like... Well, even worse, there are other channels who are not ITV, if I may say, one of which sort of, I'm denied about a second series and then decided, yes, let's do it. And then it had to be filmed and shot and broadcast by Christmas. And I think, why did you do that?

And there are boring reasons as to why that happens. But goodness me, do we have to stick? That is a common problem. This is the more...

Sadly, one of the things that I was talking about this in the speech that I did about how writers feel kind of isolated from the process. Like, there's a perfectly good reason why it happened. But the producer might know, and the writer... It's just having everybody in on the process and knowing that actually, well, this has got to do that.

I guess with ITV, it's very clear. You have to show how to commercially prove itself. That's very enough. I was quite interested, though, you said we decided we're going to make two series.

So you don't necessarily know... In fact, you're almost like an independent producer within ITV. You don't know how many shows you're going to sell in a year to ITV. No, it is exactly like that.

When I first went into commissioning, but when I first arrived in commissioning, I suddenly realized it was exactly like a producer because I'm sort of selling up. I don't have a fixed number of comedies per year. Everything's on a case-by-case basis that I'm pitching for. I've probably guaranteed maybe two sitcom titles for ITV, and I think there's a budget for maybe up to about four for ITV too at the moment.

But there could be more. But also, if you're not bringing them and stuff that they want to commission, they're not going to do it. They're not going to let you have one that they're not convinced in. No.

It's just too expensive. Exactly. It was interesting how, and I think this is a really useful thing in the session earlier when I was listening to Lucy Lumsden speaking about how the industry works and just giving a bit of an inside track on that. It was interesting how she was saying, and it came across that writers actually often quite bad, weirdly, empathy, for real people.

Imaginary people, no problem. But you want to imagine, what is this producer trying to do? Let's see the world from his perspective. How can I be a writer that's helpful to him or her?

And then, see how it's quite often her. And then, this producer then has to sell it to a controller of comedy. But also, that control has to sell it to a channel. And so, Shane at the BBC, Shane Allen at the BBC, he can't actually, he can't just commission something and just assume that BBC 1, BBC 2, 3 or 4 will actually broadcast it.

You know, he can't. So, it's all team building, isn't it? It is. So, you have to then find a home for it.

Yeah, and sometimes, you know, we're rejecting things and I sort of very cross about it. Because, you know, I'd love to be saying yes, but I don't have the autonomy to do that. No, no, no. So, you mentioned comedy drama.

So, presumably then Cold Feet and Benidor. Well, what do they come under? Cold Feet comes out in the drama department. I think because it always did when it first was on.

So, when it came back, I think it just went through drama again. Benidor comes out comedy, it started as half hours. So, you know, I guess that's why. But, the comedy drama thing is slightly new.

I've got a few in development that I hope you'll go into perhaps next year. But it is, I know there's endless discussions about what is comedy drama. For me, it's ours and it can be as comic as Benidor. It could be as, it could just be a light drama that has a bit of a sense of humor.

So, it doesn't have to have jokes. But that's partly because we're looking for lighter dramas. So, comedy drama is just eight terms of encompasses. But, presumably the story is quite an important feature of it.

Yes, yes. The narrative has to be quite meaty. Because you want an outbreak to get over. Yes, you do.

And you've got people back every week as well. That's helpful. I think sometimes writing to imaginary outbreaks is very helpful because you think, I read scripts occasionally now which feel like halfway through the story is over. And I said, you know, at the end of this thing, you need to have your little victory.

But now you need a bigger problem. You need to graph these go up slightly and then down a lot. I do remember when I was involved with the Writers Guild TV Committee at the point at which ITV said we were going from two outbreaks per hour to three outbreaks per hour there by turning the three-act hour story into the four-act 48-minute story. And there was a bit of a fuss at the time and a bit of an anger.

But actually now you have kind of basically three cliffhangers built it. You go with whatever you're given. I suppose you are. From that point of view, you need a lot of drama.

You can't just have the comedy. I guess that also means that your son you're reduced to telling your story in 46 minutes. That's what commercial now is. Which before, if there was one less outbreak, you'd have had longer than you.

Two to the twenty-five minutes. Two to twenty-eight minutes. One. And then you had three-eight minutes or whatever it was.

And now you've got four-twelve minutes. Which I think is fine. I love that 46-minute duration. I think it's fantastic.

Well, yeah. I mean, I tend to watch stuff. Sorry, I watch elementary. But I tend to watch it without an advert in its own sky.

And you think this is a 42-minute show. This works. If it's kind of good enough for NBC, it's kind of good enough. We do get very...

Writers are the worst, aren't they? And I think that's why we often don't get invited to meetings. Because A, I mean, I often complain that writers get treated like children. But the reason for that is that writers often behave like children.

And most writers are somewhere between the sort of on a spectrum of chambolic one end to weird at the other. And there aren't that many. Everyone called these a bit weird. Everyone's a bit weird.

But also, I think what you were saying in your keynote address earlier, Dave, I thought was a really good point, is that a writer, Prenure, which is a word that Dave invented that he is aware will make us awfully little bit sick. But a writer, who's got their act together, I think. And I think that's possibly what you would like to see if you do mean to write a... You would like to see someone who has actually got a little bit of sense about the industry and what they're trying to do and can empathise with what you're trying to do at your end.

Is that fair? Yeah, I think it's... Anyway, it's sort of... I prefer I love writers coming into meetings.

I really do. I started as a script editor. For me, everything is about the script. And I write as my favourite people in television.

I know a lot of people kind of love the on-screen talent. And for me, it's much more about the writer. That's, you know, without the writer, I'm not a really good script. What is that?

Yeah, yeah. So first of all, I really like it when people do bring the writers in. I have to worry if you're writers too kind of pretty surreal in their approach. In that initial meeting, we were discussing things from a creative point of view.

Because what you want is some kind of authentic voice. Don't worry about the commercial stuff at the moment. You need to worry about that. And then we'll worry about it down the line when we sort of flesh it out a bit.

But you know, that starting point, you don't want it to be constrained immediately. No, but writers acting like grown-ups will be a start. Well, I think the other thing is the rejection. You know, when I send a rejection email to a producer, it depends.

This is, it depends obviously on them. But most of the time, I spend far too long agonizing on how to write that rejection email. Because I want it to be as useful as possible. And I think a lot of the time, it probably isn't.

And I probably express things as well as I think I'm expressing things. Or I'm suddenly in a rush and we'll put it in a meeting and sort of quickly. But I think the communication that filters down to the writer, either, because I've done it badly or because the producer hasn't necessarily communicated everything. It worries me that we were talking earlier about, you know, writers can be quite moaning.

And I think that is a lack of information, lack of understanding. And so then there's, I sort of think the writer probably thinking something's been turned down because there was some decision that it wasn't good enough or funny enough or whatever. And that isn't necessarily the entire reason. There can be so many sort of complicated, boring, endless reasons.

Or when I was talking earlier about the audiences, you know, the week of commission for specific audiences. That's not necessarily the feedback the writer wants to hear. But at least it is sort of, you know, it's an understanding of why something hasn't gone ahead. And I think that leads to less anger and bitterness.

I'm sure it doesn't. I mean, my general advice on this is I don't want to know the reason. I don't care the reason is no, because it doesn't matter because I can't learn from it really. Because by the time I've got a show that far down the line, that's another two years, everybody would have changed jobs by then.

The channel wants something slightly different. The audience demographically different. You know what I mean? It's just like, and secondly, why didn't they, why didn't they, commission it?

They didn't really like it. You know, for whatever reason. If they really really really wanted to do it, they would do it. But really really wanting to do something isn't actually enough.

And you need everyone to really really want to do it. You need the channel to want to do it. You need the coming department to want to do it. Which is fair enough.

You're getting your offing to choose between whatever 10 scripts that has come from 100 that's come from another 1000 or whatever. So, you know, the things are filtered down to you. And okay, so at the point that you get them, they're probably, you know, they will be all the quality, certainly. And then at that point, things start to get turned down because there are two slots.

And whoever is the very last person to say, I choose that and that. They're, you know, in a sense, it's hard for you. I mean, if you were able to say to that person, what could I, what can the right to do to make this something that you will say yes to? Then obviously, I think that would be a useful thing.

But I think if it's like... Or do you still feel, James, that actually I don't care. They just like someone else's script better. Yeah.

I think you drive yourself mad by thinking, oh, I've only done X or Y differently. If only I'd made that decision down the line. But actually, you made a decision that you wanted to do a show about this that was in this kind of format, told these kinds of stories. And they didn't want to ultimately do that.

Okay. That's fine. I can live with that. I don't, you know, it's expensive.

You can't just make them because you feel like it. If they just write my rejection email, I'm sorry, no. Well, there's... Why?

I really do feel for you because you have to give reasons. But ultimately, I think the reason is normally we just didn't like it enough. Oh, we've only got four slots this year. But you probably do have a fifth slot.

You really really... This is my fifth favourite thing that I've read all year. We've got four slots. So for me, I sort of, you know, obviously I'm weird.

So I don't know. I just tend to find that when writers find out the reason, that doesn't make them happy. That makes them more sad. Because also it just says, I don't even have to say that about this, because the show was clearly this, this and this, are they complete idiots?

And so they've transferred their hatred onto a commissioning process or a person. I could think of a specific example in recent months where somebody got very angry about their show not being recommissioned. And the gist of it was there's something like it that's being made. And it became a whole thing that actually missed the point by several miles, I think, which was that the thing that was being made was a very different, was a kind of such a different thing.

But it was by a channel that's only making three or four new things a year. And so it felt like, you know, on balance the other show had run its course. And this show was like, actually this really is something. But, you know, writers like to get angry about things.

It's all those like, you know, the more ammunition you give us, then the more we're kind of going to go, what? Also, if you live with an idea for a long time, so this is very helpful, so I hope you don't mind. Yeah, well, it's but also I think because if you get a show a very, very long way and it doesn't go for whatever reason, you've spent a long time with that and it's not quite like one of your kids, but you have sort of given birth to something. And at the end of the day, after all this time, you've poured so much into it.

At the end of the day, someone just says, no, no, I don't think so. Sorry, but no. And that's like, it's like seeing if you watched people, if you watched your kids lining up and they were picking teams with sport and your kid basically didn't get picked, that, you know, how would you feel about the same as having a sitcom turn down? But ultimately, that's the nature of the beast.

If you have to make yourself emotionally vulnerable to come up with a show, to rewrite it, to do it, and the downside is when it goes, great. It's brilliant. When it doesn't, it doesn't get over it. Yeah, but that's interesting because I sort of do, I do worry sometimes that because there aren't many slots on my TV, so when I sort of get behind something really, really, I'm trying to push it to get it past Kevin, you know, and he's saying, well, there's no, I'm not convinced, you know, there's no money for it, whatever.

And I'm sort of still championing and pushing something and essentially dragging out the process. Yeah, I'm wondering if that actually, am I being unfair to the right of my doing that? Because there's a pattern that I have to fight, but then where's the cut off point? Yeah, there's a little, you know, the rejection is so much harder.

Yeah, there's a part of us that, no, you know, we know, I think, as a friend of mine, he's currently doing a sitcom with you, bad move, and so I kind of, you know, I went through all the kind of... Yeah, that had a long process. You know, the kind of ups and downs, his personal ups and downs, you know, he'd tell me where it was and it's like, and there'd be this whole kind of, I want it's going to go out then, but that means it's going to go out against Great British Bakeover and then this happened and now it's being moved to. But even way before that, the whole sort of pitching it process, probably two years, and we were sort of hanging, you know, we were sort of still fighting for it, and then actually, it was lucky, because second-size situation, I managed to get a commission, but he had it not, he would probably be feeling very angry with ITV.

Yeah, but I think also, you know, he knew, he understood what was going on, he was, you know, every step of the way, but at the same time, it's you are both things, you are both the kind of sensible human being that has this right. We're trying to get something on ITV very little, very little stuff, it takes a while, this is the process. So there is the sensible part of you, and there is that other little kid that has written this thing and that is about excited about it. My series on ITV, and you know, it's like, you can't, that's part of the thing that makes you what you are, and you can't just sort of suppress it.

So there's always going to be that aspect of the right, it's going to be, please, I'm imploring you, please make my show, it's sort of needy and pathetic, because the Alan Partridge, let me tell you this. And so any rejection that you get is going to be, you know, the five year old you is going to be, feel that rejection. I mean, I remember from standup days as well, thinking about this in the period towards the end of my standup career, where it was going badly a lot more than it was going better, but I had this sort of idea of, actually, you know, we don't like you, we don't think you're funny, nothing personal. And it's like, but this is me on stage, but it's true, it is both incredibly personal, because it's your thing, but it's not personal.

It's because that controller said I've got three slots in and you're the fourth thing. So let me ask you both, how can that sort of rejection process be handled better? I know a quick rejection is better than a long drawn out process, but then there's a fight for that. A long drawn out yes is still better than a quick no.

That's the problem. So in a way, I don't know, for me, all I want to know, and the producers I want to work with are people who are going to fight for it, and if they can get it on, great, and I know that if it doesn't get on, then they did their best, and the channel they want to do it, and I'll get over it. That's fine. I think if you can emotionally step away from it, at the point at which it is dropped, which is hard for you, because you've built a relationship with it as well, but you just have to say, okay, that's it.

Relationship over, I'm moving on. We had good times together as well. Whatever. So that might save you a lot of personal angst.

I'm not worried about my personal angst. I'm not worried about it. I'm not sure we can, you can, there's a right answer. I could say to you, please, just, right, I think it was really good, but this, this, this and this, I'm changed on to say, just tell me that it's not been commissioned.

And there'll be several other answers in between that. I think. Yeah. Yeah.

It's like, I mean, again, when you talk about, to, to aspiring, I specifically, you want to find a producer and get a relationship with them. It is all about relationships. And that producer is now trying to get a relationship with a controller or commissioner. And at some point, there is, you know, if it goes the distance, that's great.

But at some point, there's going to be a messy breakup. You know, how do you break up with someone and not upset them? Well, the person who can do that will make an awful lot of money if they can achieve some kind of mind trick. You know, and then there are many sitcom plots, which are about trying to break up with someone but not wanting to make them feel bad.

So, yeah, I mean, it is an emotional business because we're in a business of stories and characters and ideas are very personal. And that's why I say to writers, for goodness sakes, sticks your guns because the worst thing, the worst rejection is when they reject a show that you didn't even want to do. That's a design. Fail on your own terms.

Even that failure is almost certain because it's only, you know, a green light is the statistical anomaly in a writer's life. You know, just sort of, yeah, get used to this idea because it's just going to happen your whole career. So, yeah, so, but, but bearing that in mind, just make sure that you pitched the show that you wanted to do and if they don't let it turn, that's fine. So, yeah, there's nothing worse than being talked out of your idea and then they reject that.

And you go, I didn't even want to do that version. I should have pitched my version. So, just before we finish this, I mean, I'd like to ask you what your, if you have a failure that you're all kind of asking writers to, we like this, but can you change this and can you change that and how, how you kind of navigate that. You know, we want you to make, we want you to make the show.

That's the problem, isn't it? You want to make your show and you, Saskia, want to make the show, you want to be sure that you can get this show made. And somewhere between those two, sometimes there is a bit of a compromise required that might change the whole vision of the show. How do you kind of do, do you come up with that as a problem much?

Yeah, I mean, I think, right, you see the most common change I'll probably ask for is the characters to be younger. So, at the starting point is younger, purely for that reason, I said before, that the show doesn't go too quickly. Is that the sort of appetizers thing they want to see young people or is that just a mess? No, it's sort of, say there's a show, I don't know, it's a dating kind of couple of moments thing.

You kind of don't want them moving in too quickly because then suddenly they're buying a place and they're wearing back their mortgage and they're suddenly thinking about getting married and having children. And I don't think you know, average 16 year olds are kind of really interesting. They get much more interested in the sort of larky dating. Yeah, yeah.

So, yeah, you got to think about a life span, which I don't think. Yeah, yeah. But what if someone came up with a really funny script say about, you know, a teenager or 20 year old looking after their caring for their poorly mother or something. Would that be a kind of, do you just say that's not an ITV2 show?

Yeah, that would be very much about the tone. ITV2 tone is very different to ITV. So, ITV2 tone is quite naughty. It's quite rude.

It's much freer, I think, than, say, ITV. And our comedy slot is between the two up to the coronation street for ITV. So, it's got to appeal, the show has to appeal to that soap audience. So, it's going to be much more character driven than that.

The coronation street is the ultimate show of, you know, the entire, from the North to the 80th age age. Yeah, exactly. So, you want your comedy that's going to fit better, really trying to find that same very broad audience. Sorry, yes, I was supposed to.

I was opposed to it. Yeah. And perhaps, just for anything else, you could save some of our listeners an awful lot of time by saying, please stop sending me shows about this or that. Is there anything in particular?

You know, it is the most common rejection we're talking about, it is at the average ITV view of the comedy. It's probably about 49 or 50. We've got, you know, ITV2 audience, we're sort of talking 16 to 24. And it's a big gap in between that we don't have a channel that's sort of serving that audience.

Please think about, I know it's a really, really sort of dull thing to advise a writer about. If you are sending in a script for ITV, please think about where it will play. Because that's a very quick and easy rejection for me. Because you don't have an ITV1 and a half.

Yeah, exactly. Two minus half. Inchronologically. Yeah.

And sort of. The producer should be making that call. Do you sometimes feel though, because I think the other thing is, it's very rare as I say before writers to be talking directly to channel people and comedy controllers and things. Do you sometimes feel that the producer has slightly, if anything diluted, the idea or tried to sweeten it so that you'll like it more or do you think, you know, I'm looking for a way of not blaming producers.

I often find on the rare occasions I do manage to talk to writers directly, they'll comment on a note I've given or some casting that I've not agreed to. And it will be the first time I've heard of it. Because producers do quite like to just invoke the broadcaster as being the big baddie that's kind of delivering the note that actually they is their note. And sometimes producers will sort of say to me, look, I'm going to say this to the writer.

They say, okay, that's fine. But I really don't like it when I'm supposed to have given all these notes. So I'm really, that's why I do like to have writers in the room and then note posters go because at least then they can be discussion around as well. I don't know if I answer your question.

No, no, I think that's fine. The producer has this mediating role and if they're in a way, if they're actually the writers in the room, then they can't really basically throw you under the bus and just say, oh, yes, the channel, those idiots. But that's the same way because it's very easily done, because we are so sort of tribal and stratospheric and everything. So we do like to blame the layer ahead.

And I'm sure you're also able to say, look, I'm not in charge. I don't, you know what I mean? It's like you have a boss too. And ultimately your boss is boss has a boss too.

And their shout-out. That's a writer. Would you want to come into that room with the commission when it's discussing that? Would you rather just be discussing it with producers?

Well, no, for me personally, I would always rather be in the room because I would like to be there to hear it. I want to, I want to have a producer who understands the whole process of production and I want to be in the room with that person. But when my show comes up and the characters and the story and the things, then I want to be the one to talk about that. But I will have a sort of producer's hat on as well, being aware of things like casting and whatever.

So I wouldn't want to just be there as a writer. I want to nurture a relationship where I have a producer who you have a relationship with and you know all of that side of it. But then I'd want to be the one who says, no, this is what this character is supposed to be. And so I'm not feeling intimidated and frightened because I'm just the one on my own saying this.

I feel like I've got this producer who's got a relationship with you as well, who will back me up. I'm literally thinking of it through having written this speech that I just did. This is all kind of new stuff that I'm coming up with. But do you feel sometimes then that if you come into a notes meeting with a producer and a commissioner, do you feel that the producers then necessarily more allied with the commissioner?

Because I've been in meetings, I mean, I've had a different thing, but I have definitely felt slightly intimidated to say, actually, hang on, this is partly a confidence thing on my part, I think. But just to say, actually, no, stop, this isn't what I want to. I'll kind of see this as a sort of, I'll read the mood of the room and probably read it incorrectly and they're all thinking, we all know what we're talking about. And I know that everybody thinks I'm bluffing, I don't know what I'm talking about.

They're better at sharing confidence than I am. And I might just sit there, the previous, uncomfortably would have sat there and gone, you want that? Okay, well, I'll go in my head saying, no, no, no, you don't want to go there. But then if you don't go there, they'll cancel your idea.

I think it's, I think it's, meetings feel, right, is our insecure people. So they need to feel comfortable saying, this is really what I want. I don't know if you're going to have a crisis, it's a big argument. I know this channel, I know what they want.

But I personally do not think that that will work. Okay, I will go away and think about that. Feeling like it's in a room of equals rather than I think often writers feel like they are the bottom of the food chain in those situations. Yeah, so yeah, I sometimes spend time wondering, I want to tell what the channel actually said, rather than I'm interested to know, so apparently this, apparently that, apparently, where all this or that.

And sometimes you just think, oh, okay, and so you sort of have to take their word for it, but you don't necessarily, you wonder if they're trying to make you feel better, or whether they're trying to push it in a different direction and pushing that on to the channel. But actually, if you're talking to the channel and you discover that a note which sounds like a big note is actually a minor note, or actually a minor note, which sounds minor is actually a big deal. And if you don't address it, that would be. So I think I would just rather, I would just rather be there from the tone, I can tell whether they really, you know, if I've written a draft and I've written a second draft based on some notes, I can tell quickly whether this is draft is an improvement or not, or there's gone a different direction or whatever.

Yeah, so in general, just being in a room and talking about it like grownups. Well, the key-out notes can be so easy to misread, you know, your point about whether it's a big note or a small note, and that can be so misconstrued. Yeah, and again, then there can be a throwaway note, which then you just go, hang on, sorry, if you want to change that, the whole thing is unraveled. That is the show that has just been questioned, and actually it may just have been phrased poorly, typed in haste, whatever, and then suddenly it's, yeah, so that's why I think stuff's done verbally, I think the more the better.

But of course, your diary is probably a train wreck in terms of the amount of meetings you're talking about. No, that for me is the priority meeting. Okay, right. Well, yes, someone I enjoyed.

Well, there you go. I think sometimes writers are their own worst enemy. We often don't get paid well because we don't ask for money, but often we don't get access to meetings because we don't ask to be there. And you know, that's why my friend really frustrating is because, you know, I would love the writers to be there, and I sometimes think producers, it sounds like I'm being negative at producers.

There are some fantastic producers. No, there it is. No, no, no. The producers isn't inviting a writer to a meeting.

I can't undermine the producer by going direct to the writer, although sometimes I am so tempted to do it, and just sort of like, at least, you know, or sometimes just sort of privately giving them a nudge and saying, like, tell the producer you want to come, but equally then I'm sort of slightly compromised. I can't. I have this exact situation with the show that I work on, and it's been different producers in different ways of doing it. The last series was not, it wasn't satisfactory for various reasons.

And the old me would have just sort of stood a bit thought, okay, I'm going to go along with the whole process now. But what I did this time was I got a meeting with the main producers a couple of weeks before production, and I said, look, this is how it worked last time. This is how I think it will work better for me in relation to you. And they were just really grateful.

They had never thought, I'd never thought to question, you know, my role was right there. And they'd never thought to kind of say to me, well, what do you do? And the things that I was doing last series that were just a waste of time for me. And then I just explained that, and they said, yeah, well, we know that.

So we're actually working a lot better now. And we kind of, we get, I mean, we've had occasional, like once a month to say, oh, where are we? And what do we need to do? And we get to meeting, sitting in a room and bounce ideas as well.

And that's all just because I thought, hang on, it's time I became the writer, sorry to use that. And it's worked, you know. But there was a part of me that was sort of saying, what if they say, oh, we're not interested? We don't want, you know, all the negative things that writers thrive on.

You know, they were all part of that process for me. Yeah, no, I mean, I just think just asking a question is useful. It's like, oh, the producer's going to meet the channel and they're saying, ask a question, can I come? And that will require, no, it's not, you're not inviting me on it.

Okay, next question. Why not? And actually we don't. And I really want the producer to say, I'm coming in with my writers.

For me, if we're searching for a meeting, I will expect them to bring in the writer. And if they don't, then I'll think it's because the writers either didn't want to come or didn't. No, they won't. If they say, I just want to do it on my own.

So can you bring the writer in? And that might tell you something about the producer's relationship with the writer. No, that's useful actually. It's going to be a little bit more interesting.

One of my favourite moments of my favourite sequel of all time, which is just my minister, is a bit where Bernard looks at Hacker and Humphrey and he just says, so this is an amazing situation. It's like the hostage in his captor. And they go, yes, that's right. Of course, which one's the hostage?

And they both point at the other one. So it's really interesting how is the power going up and down in this sort of chain? And I think we, yeah. So in a way, I think writers can just be a little bit more proactive in asking for stuff.

And it's very refreshing to hear that you would actually like writers in the room. That's great. And I'm sorry that we sometimes smell, or dress up, but listen to me. Which is interesting.

Yes, sorry. Right, me, sir. Great. Well, thank you so much for this intervention on our way.

Yes, it's an intention for us. Yes, exactly. Yes, same time next week. That's really good.

And hopefully listeners will have a clearer sense of how the process could work, how it could work better and all that kind of stuff as well. Thank you for listening. Thank you for listening. Thanks for listening to our listeners as well.

Thanks and goodbye.