Episode 93 - Julie Bower

Hello and welcome to SickConge, it's time James Carey and I'm here with the wonderful writer, SickConwriter, children, CBBC writer and lovely person, Julie Bauer, hello Julie. Hello, thank you for having me. And Julie is probably best known for her CBBC show which she created, is that fair to say created? Yes, yes.

So awkward, which is now onto its fifth series. Fifth series, okay, so this in anyone's book makes you a successful writer, I'm sorry to say. So you know right, comedy and you've written comedy for quite a while, was comedy really important to you as you growing up? What was Julie watching when she was sitting on the floor at home tuning in?

Was she watching the two runnies and faulty towers or was she watching? Yeah, it was a big part of my family culture growing up. My family were all big comedy nerds in the 80s, so I grew up watching what my big brothers were watching. And it was that lovely feeling that it was something we would all do together as a family.

And being able to share Black Addict quotes felt very important and part of belonging to my family. It was like part of our culture. So it was always something that was really big, quite a moment for lots and lots of people, isn't it? Yeah well of course that was back in the old days when there weren't as many channels and there weren't as many options, if you were interested in comedy, that was one of the three shows you might be watching.

So I remember as a kid it felt very personal and it felt very part of my family culture. And my dad was a huge radio for fan growing up. Oh okay. So we used to have this Monty Python audio tape we used to listen to in the car.

So it was just always there in the background. So I was not a radio for listening to growing up. For some reason it was all radio too in my house. And the only comedy that we got that was out now in comedy was was Age, even when I was on radio one, was the Adrian Just thing a very long time ago.

It was a Sunday lunch time thing where he used to hash together loads of different comedy clips, almost making new, it's almost like mashup comedy kind of stuff. But yeah no it's the radio 4K much later for me not till university was I listening to, I think I was given a cassette with a freshest bag or something and it had Harry Hill's fruit corner on it and it had Alan Partridge. There was an episode, it was the, your Francis second best racing driver, that one, the Bergerac. Yeah yeah yeah.

So that's when I got into radio 4 and that kind of thing. But you had that growing up radio 4 as well. Were you made to listen to the goons? Yes that was, I think my dad had an LP of the goons.

I wasn't quite, that didn't get me in the same way. Oh really? The Python sketches did. Okay.

And then what was nice about kind of my generation, that sort of shift into the 90s there was that huge surge of comedy that I think as a generation we felt was just for us. Suddenly we were watching shows that our parents weren't assembly into and it kind of like, it was nice to have that growing up as well. Yeah yeah, it's actually something that's a sense of, you really want, because I remember, actually even as a teenager I think, I remember when a grand day out was on TV, the first Nick Park thing and I taped it and I really wanted my parents to watch it, because I just said I think you really like it and they did. But then there was other comedy where I wouldn't dream, I wouldn't dream of getting them to watch it.

You know like Paul Merton the series or absolutely or all those sorts of channels. Remember when Channel 4 used to make? Yeah yeah, edgy. But sort of studio comedy as well, it felt very studioish.

But yes, so you sort of grew from that, something we all do together to something that's just on your own. And I remember watching The Office Christmas Special on my own in the kitchen, because nobody in my family was interested in it at a time and just going into living room, absolutely crying my other eye, feeling like I'd won, because obviously I discovered this one thing that they obviously weren't interested in. I remember even though I wasn't a huge fan of the Royal Family, getting them to watch The Christmas Special, and they thought it was rubbish. Yeah, yeah.

When they were all crying on the kitchen floor after, on the bathroom floor, you know, and then she'd had the baby and stuff and they were just like, right, that's meant to be funny, is it? The Royal Family is interesting because I think I know so many people that, it reminds them of their family growing up and some people love it for that reason, some people hate it for that reason, but it's like some people like to see television reflecting their life, some people I guess don't. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So you were sort of absorbing comedy and were you sort of, were you one of those geeks who, maybe it's a boy thing, but of course, you know it's not stereo time.

We wanted people who would memorize stuff and would know it all the next day at school, or were you... Well, it's really interesting how you say it's that more of a boy thing because certainly when I was 14, 15, I don't remember having other female friends that I could do that with. And I went to an all-girl school, so there was nobody. And then I remember going to the sixth one and for the first time, other girls had started watching Wontipytheen and the Holy Grail, and that was the first time age 17 I remember actually being able to do that with other girls.

So I think it does, it was fantastic, it really does make a difference when you suddenly feel like, oh my god, this is something that I can share with other people and it's not like a, oh and I remember one, the weirdest girl in the class and I having a competition over who liked Red Wolf more. Like when I was like 13 or something, thinking it's just me and her then, you know, like it wasn't, I think it's very different now, but certainly that was what I remember growing up, that it wasn't something that you could do with other girls. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, that's the case.

Well, I don't know, maybe we just pretend it is. Red Wolf is a really interesting show, because that's quite an important show for a lot of people. I remember Michelle Father, producer I worked with on Blue Stone, she was a massive Red Wolf fan and that was a big thing with her and her brother as well, I think. But I think one of my sisters used to watch it and she could take it or leave it to be honest.

But do you have a particular favourite? Is that one of your Des Island sitcoms? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and that was from series three to six, which suddenly came into its own.

And again, it was really delightful realising other kids while you were watching it and suddenly, and I learnt about science from that show. I remember, but no, I remember, I learned Newton's three laws of physics from an episode white hole, where Criton says every action has an econopso that's a great episode. So you were finding people to talk to comedy about, were you starting to do comedy yourself in any way at all? Were you writing snarky articles for school magazines and that kind of stuff?

I was trying to write sketches, they didn't make any sense, but I was trying to imitate the rhythms and the speech of sketches at a very young age. And just writing odd stuff I was doing, but I was trying to get my head around what it was I was trying to say. Who were they for? Oh no one, I just wrote them.

I think I might have shown them to my friends, but it wasn't really for anything, it was just to see if I could hear it sounds a bit crazy. I had the voices in my head, I had voices in my head, I was just trying to find what to do with them. Nothing will be as weird as Lucy who we spoke to a few weeks ago, who wrote a spare Fraser script at the age of about 11. So that's pretty much the baseline.

And I wrote a black had a script when I was about 17, 18, the beginning of my gap here, where it was set in the battle of Hastings. So in Baldrick somehow I'd managed to kill King Harold, something like that. It probably exists in a box somewhere, which had set fire too. It could be worth a million.

It could be to who I don't know, maybe. So you go from there and then what sort of happens? How do you go from there to loving comedy and writing stuff, your own amusement really, or to get that rhythm into? Did that start affecting courses and places you went and all that kind of stuff?

I remember thinking if I want to do this as a career, I'd be taken seriously. Comedy is not the root that I'd be taking. I wasn't aware of any prominent female comedy writers. And I thought obviously, obviously, in order to be taken seriously, I need to be a lot posher and I need to have an interesting theatre, because that's what people who make careers out of this go from do.

So I tried to acquire an interesting theatre for my late teens. And I mean, I do love theatre, but I was forcing it. I felt like that was the option, if I wanted to be creative, that was the option that I should. And then so comedy was like a secret love that obviously wouldn't make me any money.

And it was something that I would do. That's a good thing to think. Absolutely. I was right first time.

Yes, definitely. Money is very much the outlier, especially early on. But yes, and obviously once you have a dram degree, very much the world is your oyster. Well, the job offers were just rolling.

I'm going to make you work. Yes, you're fighting them all for this enormous stick. I was very lucky. I got to go and do a TV, TV-YP television and young people, five days of workshops and master classes at the Edinburgh Festival.

Oh. And it was fantastic. And it was one of these things you had to write in. I think they still do some skill that's like it.

It's very similar. I can't remember how I got onto it. I had to fill in a form or something like entering a cornflakes tradition. Write in 100 words why you love telly or something.

And I did this and got into television really through the contacts I made there. And kind of through myself into working in documentaries. Which again, felt very grown up, very sensible, very middle class. It felt like what I should be doing rather than what I secretly wanted to be doing.

Okay. So you're working on docs and you're working? I know none of this. This is all very interesting.

So you're working TV production, researching documentaries, producing. Yeah, I started off 22 works as a PA for 25 cents a week sort of thing. And worked my way up. I did that for a couple of years.

I was assistant producer on a couple of things. And it's just really hard work. Oh, it's such hard work. Yeah.

And even bad television is a lot of work. Yeah, so much work. In fact, the same amount of work is good television. And only just to get all the forms cleared and legal and everything.

And really, there's so much television out there. What's the point in half the time? Everyone might as well just be at home with their families. So I can sense your heart was very much not in it.

But so you were turning out docs and that kind of stuff. So the point where I became aware of your comedy chops was you did a radio pilot one off thing. And I want to say it was called something like 41 CDAR Street. Yes, that's it.

That's the right number. 49 CDAR Street. OK, 49. I knew it was a two or four at the start.

And I think I had Colin Holton it. Yes, yes. And Tom Perry and it was produced by Colin Anderson. OK, and I remember it being very funny.

And then thinking, oh, I hope they make that into a series. And then they didn't. So how did that come about? Was that early on in your sort of comedy explorations?

The process by which I got commissioned is the longest, most convoluted, you know, like that description of getting a vogue on to do something in Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Without orders sent in, sent out, filed in trippy at buried in people three days and recycled this file off. OK. That is literally what happened to that script.

Oh, wow. OK. Through the Commission process, it was absolutely. So it was part of a sitcom writing festival called the sitcom mission where I get it.

Oh, yes, yes. I know the guys who do it. Yes. And still do it.

And they sort of have 15 minutes. It comes as well. That's right. Yeah.

And they get access to read them. And it's, yeah, so it seems to be a very good thing. Yeah, I think it's a great way to try ideas out. It's a big thing stood up for an audience.

And it was just loads of fun to do. But again, for a 15 minute script, then goes through two months or something of being performed and rewritten and performed. So you get a very detailed look at what's going on with it. And then a friend of mine was on a temporary placement or something in Radio 4.

And I think he pitched it and it got forgotten. I don't quite know what happened. I think he went back to his previous job. And then for some reason, I don't know.

I only know what I was told. I didn't hear anything for months. And then Colin Anderson, who did produce it and he'd been working overseas, he came back. I emailed him about working on something else.

He just remembered that he'd seen it and managed to go down to whatever ancient vaults they buried. I don't know. And dug up notes on it. And got it out of the peeks.

Yeah, literally dug it up. And managed to get it commissioned. It was all very bad. As a new writer, you're trying to answer that question all the time.

Why don't you do this? Am I wasting my time? What does the real world think of this? And it's really hard to know.

I think when the process, you can't tell from a process like that. I think that experience was very unique to me. But I couldn't tell from that. Yeah, if I was wasting my time or not.

Or if it was any good or a fun. It just felt like, yeah. Yeah. Is this anything?

Am I? Can I do this? It's a bit? Yeah.

No. And actually to test it out, that's one of the upsides of doing the Edinburgh Fringe is like you are performing four strangers. Because none of your friends will get Edinburgh. They just won't because they have more sense than that.

And actually doing the same show 26 times in a row. You really find out if it's on your not. And also whether you want to do it or not. Did you have any Edinburgh frustrations or stuff?

Or did you go straight from straight into the radio thing? I mean, I mean, the broadest thing Edinburgh was out of the question for me from a financial portfolio. I was working in a call center, any minimum wage, trying to make it as a writer. Things like Edinburgh, I just was tied to beyond.

I did have, I went as a student, I did a student production. Which was a very contemporary adaptation of Molly Aes-Tartou. Which was mental. That was fun to do.

But yeah, the actual, the years when I was actually trying to make it as a writer, I just things like, yeah, I just, I don't know how people do it. Yeah, no, especially now. But it's even more expensive because the accommodations of the killer now, previously. I did, I ran a show last year at the Fringe.

And the show was the cheap bit. And it was just everything else that was. And also, I don't have people for any energy. Because I was tired all the time.

Because I was working full time and then writing. And then trying to do an early shift at the call center so I could make it for a four o'clock meeting. And then I just be exhausted. And I just, I don't know how people, I don't know how you go.

Well, no, I think if you're a performer, if you're a writer performer as well, I think that as I think Edinburgh is a bit of a glittering prize. But if you're a writer, first and foremost, I don't think it is necessarily the sort of, you know, because you would drive yourself to do a show there if you want to be stand up right to a performer. Because that's golden in their hills, sort of. But if you're just a writer, you're not really necessarily going to get the most out of Edinburgh.

And there are other things you could do, which is, right, a script is going to be buried in Pete by Vodos. Which, you know, which was in itself was a lot of work and the secrets, the commission and all that kind of stuff. So that was in a way you kind of short. I remember you, I was about to say, I was about to say you found a shortcut there.

But very much was not. But yeah, a cheaper way of doing it. Because it was in, but I remember you've blogged a lot about the argument against making something yourself versus just sitting at home and just writing something. Which is cheap and easier.

And I think there's pros and cons to both. Yeah. So I think that's the way of doing that stuff. I think you can now make stuff more easily.

And, you know, proving the concept and stuff. But equally, if you just want to write a script, I think, that's still, ultimately, it's a democratic thing that's a script written by Julie Bauer. And a script written by Richard Curtis is typed on the same computer using the same software. And the end result looks exactly the same.

It's just the words are different. And there's something amazingly democratic about that. Which I think is not to be sneezed out. So Colin phoned you and pulled your script off the pile and produced it.

And he's got it bought by Radio 4. It was a part of a season of new shows or something. I think I had either three or six new pilots. And it was called something that happened Tuesday or something that brought custom new pilots every week.

And I had very low expectations of getting made into a series. Which was good. But it was... My mum would love you.

She always says he who expects nothing will never be disappointed. Absolutely. I stand by that. But it was a wonderful experience.

It was just that extra shot in the arm, confidence of like, well, maybe I can do this. Maybe I can, you know, some really, really cool people works on this. And I was proud of it. It was according to the front of an audience.

Yeah. It was really fun. Because in terms of just sort of testing yourself as it were, that's a fairly early big test, isn't it? Because the script is king really in a radio life thing.

It's like they're reading out the words that you wrote. Yeah. Hope it's funny. Hope you found the funniest order.

Yeah. I think she did. She said she was like to give the writer a reason for why they didn't buy the show. And I said, I never want to know the reason.

Because there's only one reason is you didn't like it enough to break any of your rules to commission it. Did you get a reason? Did you can? Did it devastate you?

You were already ready for it to not be commissioned as a series. I don't actually remember what the reason was. Maybe they hated it and nobody wanted to tell me. I don't know.

It felt like getting on. Did it feel like getting on you'd already won. Yeah, it felt like getting on was such a huge achievement. I'd been trying, you know, like so many people when you first out just get one sketch on an open door show, which is really hard to do.

And I felt like I couldn't even contemplate pitching radio for sitcom until I'd actually cracked these sketch shows. I hadn't really ever had a load. I mean, I had the old sketch on. But I think some writers just, they have that knack and they do stand out.

And I think radio for is very good at picking up people who they can tell have got that real gift and working with me and I was never one of those people. So I always felt like I was cheating a bit by skipping around that hurdle and going straight in and having a pilot. So in itself it felt like a real achievement. You'd jump with you.

I wasn't sure where it would have gone as a series. I mean, you say it, you know, don't you at the time. You're like, oh, I've got so many ideas for this series. I was like, this thing has just been like a one, a 30 minute script for 100 years.

I've got no idea really what would happen to it next. Was it very much? We did it feel like that. They did it feel like this is my show.

Once it's done, I don't have anything else. Or was it like, I'm now sick to death of it. I didn't want to do this. And I've got loads of other ideas for new shows.

Was that your feeling with which? Yes, I was, I was, I had a number of other scripts that were sort of trying to, you know, like you didn't do anything. I was just trying to get out to anyone, anyone who might, anyone who might take pity on your media. So I was doing that kind of at the same time.

So yeah, I was, it was massively helpful to have that, you know, that little 30 minute thing that had been broadcast. I could then send out and say, Peter, I've had this thing broadcast. Yeah. I'm proper.

Yeah, yeah. So how do we get from there to, to so awkward on CBBC? So I had, I don't remember. It's all a bit, there was so much going on because I was making, I was working with film, like film directors, and making little short films as well.

And doing a lot of live sketch shows. Okay. And what sort of live sketch shows? Just like on the sort of London comedy circuit, group working with different groups of performers on different shows.

And that was taking up a lot of time. How did you know them? How did you get to say, can I write you some material? I think it was like ads online, like websites like shooting, I don't know, like, it was, yeah, there was just any opportunity going, I'll try this, I'll try this, I'll try this, and just kind of trying to, any experience I could get, no matter how insane it might have seen.

And in the world of short film, you just end up having meetings with lunatics. Like it's, some of the people that like had funded, were funding these projects from, I don't know how, and we're just kind of, had these insane ideas and it was like, it was really fun and exciting, but I don't know if in career terms it actually achieves that, you know, I don't know how it sometimes feels like, at the time I was just spending a lot of time meeting lunatics and not a lot of time, actually getting better at the thing I was trying to get better at. But so I had, off the back of it, I had one short film, which I was very proud of, that got funded by the film council. And that off the back of that, I got an agent.

And so I was kind of working with my agent to just get scripts out in front of people. And so So Awkward was one of those scripts, and I had sent it to the producer Sally Martin at Channel X, and she pitched it to the CBC. So that was all quite, no, nothing. Yeah, quite conventional, it was nothing particularly.

But it was one of many irons in the final, it was, yeah, it's not like it's, because you're not making it, because you're describing that bit as conventional, you make it sound like you're apologizing for this smooth transition that you had from loving comedy as a teenager to, and here I go with my series, it's like, you know. It was a long time. But in these things do take a long time. So a lot of waiting, and a lot of, you know, I think the best thing to do with all these things is just once you've written it and it's in, forget all about it, move on to the next thing.

And just try and keep as many projects turning over as possible. And I think while you're at the start of your career and you're still figuring out what it is you want to write and what you want to say and how you want to say it, as many formats as possible, you know, try and making your own stuff, working with other people and making stuff, just, you know, because I think it's all part, it does help. You kind of discover what it's that you're best at. Yeah, and also you're getting used to working in collaboration because, you know, as you know, TV particularly is a team game.

You just can't, it's not like a director or two thing, it's not like a, you know, it's not, you don't just take your fingers and stuff happens, it's just everything is negotiation, everything is, you know, dependent on this, there's never enough money, there's never enough time, and you have to trust people to get on with their job and you have to learn to get over it very occasionally, they don't. And because very occasionally we don't. But obviously we would never admit that. So you go from sort of, I mean, there must have been euphoria and panic when you go from, I've written a TVC script too.

Okay, so 13, here we go. Yeah, terrifying, absolutely terrifying. It's like that, that bit in Fartéd where he's still clinging onto the bottom of the plane after it was like that, it was just felt like that, as long as I didn't look down, I was okay, but I just, yeah, it was, it was really scary, very exciting. Right.

And really enjoyed it actually, figuring out what the show could be and what it needed to be, what the broadcast needed it to be. Yeah, trying to get into it between those things. And this was a time, I mean, it was a few years ago, now it was a time they weren't, it felt to me, there weren't as many shows with three female protagonists and it was all about them and their world. Right.

There's a lot more now, but at the time it was like, this is, this is really cool. I can actually say some stuff here that I think might be interesting and worth saying and okay, you know, writing's really hard and it doesn't always work out that way. You think you've got this message that you want to send out to the world and actually what you need to do is get the story line straight. And that's hard and so it was a big learning curve, but it was exciting having that opportunity to actually, you know, when you've been waiting, waiting, waiting for that chance to actually get out there and say some of those things, it was very exciting to finally have that.

And to have a little bit of the experience of doing lots of different projects. And the way it's, I think people occasionally see having a pilot script that gets commissioned as some kind of winning lottery ticket. And therefore, now everything is just wonderful. It's like, no, this is a proof of concept and also a proof of your talent to actually then deliver on the actual work of then replicating this many times over, presumably you didn't write all 10 or 13 or whatever.

No, absolutely. Like you say, it is just like, I've got to do this all again. Oh my God, how do I do this? What is it?

What is it I'm supposed to do again? I can't write the same story. It's a different story. So what is it that?

Well, it's got to be kind of the same, but kind of different. Yeah, yeah. And that's really, really hard to get your head around. And also presumably explaining your vision of the show to other writers so that they can write their episodes too and all that kind of stuff as well.

Yeah. And with a new show kind of all agreeing what it needs to be. It wasn't like I was sitting on a lily pad dictating a lily pad, a throw. I mean, all those.

I like lily pad. It's good. Dictating. It was like, okay, well, you guys, everyone is really, you've all got more experience of writing your television thing.

Any ideas? But it's so pretty, really, though, you had to kind of stick to your guns on. The show is this and it's not that. And people going, oh, but maybe we could do this and this and you just want to go.

And then you're not really, that feels like a different show. That feels like the kind of thing, another show where we were. Why is, you know, I've just been involved in a TV show the last 12 months and it's quite a lot of, this feels like a really good story, but I don't quite know why it would be an hour show because our show is about X and so our story should probably reflect that. Yeah.

So sort of having to sort of say no to stuff as well. I know you weren't necessarily the showrunner of the actual show, but equally as the creation, you do have quite a lot of clout. And you discover that people do occasionally listen to what you're saying. Yeah, it's really scary when it happens.

Yeah. And I think that's where the show Bibles are really important. Right. Show Bibles are tricky because they can be very vague and ambiguous, but I think if you get it right.

I've read a lot of vague and ambiguous ones where you need a pair of bar and go, oh, they don't know what the show is. What does any of this mean until you actually start the script out? You know what any of this is really about. But I think you can and should in your show Bible nail the key themes and what, again, what, keep coming back to this, but what is it you're trying to say?

What is the point of this? What, you know, what is, and it doesn't have to be some complicated or emotional message, but it's just what it's about. Yeah. What is it, you know, and I think I tried, I could say I've not written a show Bible before, but I was trying and to kind of clarify that in my own head what I want you to be about and what people to take away from this.

When they're thinking of ideas and obviously I work very closely with the producer Sally on that. Yeah. And what sort of, I mean, what sort of writer, when you're doing this, what sort of we can make out, what sort of writer have you sort of turned out to be? Are you sort of, are you a plotter?

Are you a plotter sort of planner? Are you a story character person or are you a sit and type and then figure it out later? Do you basically write 80 pages and then work out what's the 30 page version of this or do you know, what, where do you start on stories and, you know, given the existing format, you know, how do you start? Usually it's the funny idea.

Okay. It's the moment that you're hoping that you can build the episode around. It's like, you know, I think it would be really funny if X happens in this episode. Okay.

How can we get there? Right. And then in the course of getting out, you realise it's impossible to throw the whole thing out or whatever, but that's, I think it's nice to have that thing that you're working towards that funny bit. Okay.

Absolutely shows their characters out the best. Right. So the funny, so it's not just a raw funny bit. It is a, wouldn't it be funny for this character did that rather than would it be funny if a character does something?

Yeah. Well, again, going back to the, okay, this is what I think the show is about. This is something I'm working on at the moment. And there's a lot of themes about cultural identity and what does it really mean to be this thing that we also really think and like, what can you best show your characters talking with that?

And then kind of working around that, I think that's always, but it's hard, but I think doing it that way is really hard because you get really bogged down in the load stuff that isn't relevant to the story because you're thinking all these other ideas and thoughts that aren't necessarily going to end up in your script and you kind of have to wade through that. And I think I make life really hard for myself by getting bogged down in all that stuff. Right. So you do you find yourself, so you do tend to write long or complicated and find yourself coming back all the time or?

Yeah, my biggest crime is writing about how the characters are feeling at that moment in the story or rather than... Why is that bad? Because I think the clearest thing to do to get from one scene to the next is what's happening. What are they going to be doing on the screen?

Right. But how they're feeling is important because you want to be in a head and in their world. What's happening on the screen? Yeah.

Because I would literally write three pages of how everybody's not that bad. Not that bad, I'm not. But three pages of how everybody's feeling doesn't really communicate. I can't see that.

Yeah. Yeah. How are they feeling that? What does it mean in terms of...

But also how's that going to spur? Because I've... It's interesting. I've read...

I've read quite a bit of script on this recently. I've read quite a lot of scripts where scenes sort of just end and they've actually been quite kind of emotional scenes and they've had quite a lot of stuff go on. But at the end of it, it just feels like it's ended and it's like I don't know what's coming next and in the way I don't need to know everything that's coming next. I want it to be a surprise but it feels like there needs to be more action driven emotion rather than just emotion.

And you can't have comedy without the emotion because the emotion gives you the jeopardy so that stuff matters. If nothing matters, then nothing's particularly funny. But at the same time, you know, emotion isn't just a static state. It's a changing thing which leads to action and that kind of stuff.

So your tendency is to have these characters feel things rather than necessarily show what they're doing and then how that leads to the next thing and the thing. And you'd think you know that, you'd think that you'd be able to not do that anymore. And yeah, it's amazing how you basically just sort of make the same mistakes again and again. I think people assume that as you get more experience that you get loads better.

I don't think as well when you're under stress, you kind of go back to your safe place. The way that you're most comfortable and that's not always the best choice. I think I don't know. But yeah, like you say, why is it the more you do it, the more you do it, the more you handle it.

But it feels, yeah, sometimes I feel like I'm just going backwards. Yeah. So I mean, presumably you have interactions with lots of other writers as well on your shows. Do you see them very often?

The people who write the other episodes? No, and I wish I did because they were great. They were fantastic team. We have with Sowalk, we have one day a year where we sit and chat about the direction of the series.

We're all together. We're all together. Yeah. I think because you can't plot 13 episodes in a day.

No. And I guess there's no point in kind of going in and doing one episode. Maybe you can do one episode, but then that doesn't really help the other, you know, everyone else. So the most useful thing has kind of been over the years to try.

And also everybody has different ways of plotting as well. And some people can't do that thing in a room. They can say, this should happen. Some really, really strong writers, they're not particularly vocal in a room.

And I think it's about finding a way that commulates everyone. And I think again, Sally, who's the new script at it, is really in that back of the strengths. Okay. So bringing the best out of writers so that they work in a way that they are able to be comfortable.

Yeah. That's interesting because I think we tend to write as a lot of writers, especially big mouths like me, tend to assume that if they just paid writers more money to turn up and we all could sit in a room and storyline, then everything would be better for everyone. But of course that only really works for big mouths like me. But do you find that what you when you're in the room is what you end up writing when you come away?

Or do you find that what's in the room? You sit down and you're like, oh no, that worked really well in the room. Oh yeah, you do certainly get some of that. But I think you then have a slightly stronger framework which you can then start to take apart.

Because I think the endless chewing and throwing on stories can be very frustrating. I've certainly been in situations where I've just thought, wow, we could have cut through an awful lot if we just got in a room together and thrash this out rather than sending in 900 emails and three conference calls. I mean the worst thing is telephone conference call. It's just death.

And so yeah, more recently when I've been the script editor on those calls, I for one have been hugely relieved that I'm not the writer that's going to go and do something about fixing that script because I sure as heck wouldn't want to have to do it. Because there's something horrible about a phone conference. For any reason, I'm sure in politics, civil engineering, everything, phone call conferences are a disaster. Have you been on some of those?

I've got one tomorrow. Yeah, I mean for this particular one, I'm not too, because we're at stage with the script now where I feel like, okay, I can roughly know what I'm doing with this but no, I know what you mean. They are a bit of a when you can't quite hear what the other person's saying and it's three ways you're taking it in terms of speaking and kind of going back to the course. But I know what you're saying, having someone to thrash it out with whether that's over the phone or however you need to do it is less isolating and it can.

And it just, it forces you to focus in a way that you're sitting in front of a black page of Facebook for a morning. It can be what happens if you're just storyline by yourself in a room. When you're on your own, how do you work? Are you good in the mornings?

Do you keep fairly regular hours? Do you write at three o'clock in the morning? Do you have to basically disconnect the internet for you? What is it for you?

I'm one of those. I like to go to the cafe. I can't go and distract myself by watching videos on YouTube. It looks really bad.

Yeah, yeah. You're in a cafe so you've got to focus. You've got to at least look like a writer. I once got a stream of abuse off an old lady in Costa because she thought I was taking up a table that somebody should have been the payment customer.

I mean, I was a paying customer. But yeah, so you are conscious of how you look to other people and you don't go off and suddenly start doing the washing up or you just get on. So that's probably my most productive in a cafe. Oh, right.

So do you not get that much done at home? I think it's like everyone really, when the deadline keeps close, you'll get you start getting more productive and then it's just, I don't know. It's all the hours, isn't everything just something goes out the window and I probably more productive in the evenings. Okay.

But then I'm also more tired in the evenings, so I don't know. Right. Yeah, and it does change I think because I used to be quite good at night and I'm now discovered by 11 o'clock at night, I just want to get a bed. Yeah, yeah.

And work has to be pretty much mission critical to get me to stay up late. Yeah, yeah. And when you have kids as well, you know, kind of need to be human and able to have a converse with them over breakfast. That's good.

Yeah, that's very much the ideal, isn't it? Yeah. And so I do try not to work too late because then I know, you know, I know use in the mornas. So yeah, it's just, it's always been one of those things I don't really know when my best product was off because I always feel like I'm fitting it around whatever's going on.

It was the same, you know, when I used to work, I was just, I used to do the early shift at the call center and that was great because the phone didn't use to ring for the first hour and a half. So I'd be at seven o'clock in the morning working because I could. We were doing that after you've done some TV production stuff. Did you just kick it into touch and don't always, it's just like, is it in a way you sort of, it's hard to work in the wrong kind of television to do the right kind of television.

It's almost better if you just do something, if you do a job you actually dislike to the refocuses of your mind. Couldn't agree more. Is that a contest decision on your part? Well, it was the working television.

Market forces. Yeah, yeah, the element of that, but working in documentaries, the particular shows I've been working on were very emotionally draining and I'd been really struggling. It was a goal for during the Gulf War, during the 2002 invasion and they were very well made piece of television but it really took it out for me. And also I didn't like being around other pushy people, but the same industry as me on a daily basis.

I found it a bit overwhelming and every PA that I ever met when I was working in television wanted to be a writer or had some idea for a book or everyone was doing these high pressure admin production roles and secretly wanted to be creative. Everybody wanted to get into development because production is so hard and so stressful and I think development when you're on the outside of it looks easier and I just found it so depressing. It's just me and everybody else wants to be doing this much better to just be out of it completely in your own world, figuring out what it is you want to do and it's always inoculated against wanting to work in that particular world. Interesting.

Well, that's sort of possibly some of the unexpected advice then for people who listen to this show who are thinking about or trying to work out their way in. Have you run into other writers who were you 15 years ago that you've sort of given advice to you? What are you all, we've talked about trying to make your own stuff, whether that's a good idea or not. Are there any other sort of tips really or life hacks or that kind of thing other than it just takes ages and there are no shortcuts?

And just, you know, like you always own your blogs just doing it and just sitting down and doing it, that's how you. And that's what I was not very good at. I'd get involved in making things, going to comedy nights, watching sketches that I'd written six months ago being performed over and over and I wasn't learning anything from that. And it actually just taking time sitting down and doing it and letting life get in the way, which is hard sometimes.

And that discipline, so you still went through that discipline of trying to get sketches on radio for shows. Yeah. And actually that discipline probably did make you a better writer, even though it didn't particularly suit you at the time, you didn't get that much stuff on them. Yeah, but no, I agree.

Yeah, absolutely trying to get something on. You're working through a brief and that is a good discipline and working through a deadline and that's a good discipline. And especially our current affairs sketches, they're always great to build your craft, to learn your craft because it just gets you thinking about writing, you know, there's always material out there to work with. And I think people assume that to write top of sketches you have to be some sort of a new sound.

But actually, it's worth bearing in mind that most people who listen to the show were not new and so actually having a slightly non-news, because I was never that fast about topical sketches and I'm still not really. So in a way that can be an advantage, but I think people feel that most of the opportunities are in stuff like news, Jack, and those sorts of things, which it feels like it's got to be topical. Yeah. And you say, well, I'm not really into that.

So, well, no, the audience just wants jokes, really. Yeah, and it doesn't have to be. These are pegs, dang on. Yeah, yeah, it doesn't have to be.

I mean, it needs to fit the format of the show. And I think that's the best advice is if you're wanting to write for a show, listen to the show, figure out what is the tone that they're after, what is it that they're looking for. But yeah, it doesn't have to be edgy, groundbreaking, does it? It's just, you know, especially when you first start out, you're learning by doing that.

Yeah. It's really important. Yeah. Thank you so much for speaking to us, Julian, taking the time out to come here.

Thank you for having me. Not at all. You're very well brought up. All those days with your family, which has been time well spent.

Huge thanks to Julie for joining us on the podcast. We're nearly done, but before we go, a date for your diaries, the 5th of December, the 5th of December, that's when we'll be recording our 100th episode live, 100th episode of SickCongeeks, isn't that amazing? And we're better pleased to do that. Then the Museum of Comedy in Bloomsbury in London.

Yes, I know it's London. I don't even London either, but it's very handy for everyone. I hope you can join us for that. Special guests should be dropping in and we'll keep you posted on those, but Dave and I will be there, and surely that's enough, right?

And also other SickCongeeks listeners will be there, and we can all suddenly see each other, and it'll be rather lovely. Tickets will be on sale for that very soon. Find us on Facebook or Twitter at SickCongeeks, and you'll find more information and prices about times and prices and stuff for the 5th of December. But you'll be able to come for free if you join us on Patreon and become a subscriber, where you get access to our Patreon-only podcast.

Currently, there's about eight hours worth of stuff that only Patreon is going to hear, with more going up all the time, including episodes where we read the first 10 pages of Patreon-only scripts. So that's something that you can make use of if you join us at the right level. You can also get free copies of my book, writing that SickConge and Dave's book, too. Plus you'll get access to our forthcoming sitcom, SickConge, Soup to Nuts podcasting, which Dave and I will create, plots and write a brand new SickConge before your very ears.

So that's something to look forward to in the new year. Those are the Patreon benefits, along with the warm and fuzzy feeling of supporting the podcast, which, as you might have noticed, has gone weekly for a bit, because we've just got so much stuff for you. So the day to remember is the 5th of December at the Museum of Comedy. It'll be great to see you there.

Thanks for joining us, and speak to you next time. Cheerio.