Estimating

All right, shall we crack on with today's topic then? Yeah, let's do it. So, estimating. Yeah.

So, we'll talk about what it takes to estimate for a piece of work, how to estimate your effort when you're getting a quote to a client, when you're sort of pitching for a new work. So, just some various ways of doing that and how to calculate something, you know, when you're not sure what to estimate, what's the best way to do it? Do you overestimate and overestimate what you normally do? Yeah.

So, I think we'll probably have some different options because most of my estimation that I do is for a small piece of work, which is part of a bigger project. Yeah. We don't necessarily estimate anything to do with the costing. It's normally just to do time.

And because of the way the company works is that we charge a fixed fee, a fixed day rate. So, we'll estimate how many days or half days or whatever, a piece of work will take, and then the cost will go on that. Whereas with you, I guess, it's a little bit different. What's your method?

Yeah, I think that this two distinctions says you work part of a team, there's a number of people that will be working on a project and that's where your costing is based on the time spent by the individuals on this project, right? And that's the resources that have been used. Whereas, yeah, myself, it's a case of I've kind of got my pricing in place. So, I think I know what I'm worth and what other agencies or competitors are charging for similar kind of work, especially projects.

So, when we talk about projects, we're talking about websites, things like that. Yeah. So, I don't know, you can start. I mean, it's going to break down if you know how you guys price your time, your work that you're doing and stuff like that.

Okay. So, now company charges, they fixed day rate for a developer. I think they have different rates for different seniority levels as well. You know, junior, senior lead front end backend.

So, each of those different roles has a price that the company charges going forward. And then when we are on project, you know, we work in a agile environment, you know, we have small scrum teams. And we break our projects down into user stories and tasks and tough, tough tasks and epic and so on. And sometimes it's quite difficult when you've gotten a brand new project with no history.

So, it's easier over time. It's that very first estimation that you need to do. The very sprint zero is normally the hardest one to estimate because you just don't know. You don't know how long a piece of functionality is going to take.

You need to generally base it on previous experience and then give a rust estimate on base and arc. This piece of work took two days. So, this one, which is very similar, will probably take a round of about two days. Hopefully it shouldn't take as long because you've got experience from previous project and maybe you can reuse some code.

So, it may be a bit quicker. Yeah. But that's generally a good starting point. So, the way we do it is with story points, which start from zero, half, one, two, four, like so on.

And they go up in the sort of Fibonacci sequence. Are you familiar? You know what Fibonacci is? Yeah, I think so.

I wasn't really good at maths. Yeah. So, it's when a number is the sum of the previous two numbers. So, and then you end up with a sequence.

So, it'd be zero, one, one. And then one plus one is two and then one plus two is three, two plus three is five. So, it goes one, one, two, three, five, eight, thirteen. It's like exponential growth, isn't it?

It's just yeah. Yeah, basically. Yeah. If you were to, yeah, if you put those onto a curve, you'll get an upward trending curve.

And it's just a good way of estimating your project. So, something that's quite small, let's say for example, you need to update some links in a website footer. Right? Yeah.

That probably take a, you know, fifteen, twenty minutes to do that, depending on your build process and everything. But even let's say at most, it'll take an hour to get that done. That in our way of working would be considered as a tiny task. And it may be given a story point of half.

Right. Whereas something like building a carousel could potentially take a couple of days. And that we might estimate that as around an eight, which would be a medium to large task. Something that's given a score of thirteen points would normally be a very big project.

And we tend to try and stay away from doing tasks at that level. We tried to then break those down into smaller tasks. So, once we've done our planning, most of our tasks are around three to five story points or less. Right.

Some of them are small, but most of them are around three to five. And those sorts of, you roughly translate story points in today's or it's not really mapped one to one with days or hours. But I think in most people's head, that's how it is mapped. So, something that's three story points is normally about a day, day and a half, whether it works the most.

And something that's an eight would be like two to four days. Okay. And as you go, like I said, as you go on into a project, you learn from past experiences. So, your estimations as you go on in each sprint tend to become more accurate.

Yeah. So, there'll be times in the beginning where you might estimate as an eight and it ends up being a five and you end up completing that work a lot quicker. So, then when you've got another one, which is a similar sort of size project, then you can adjust your estimate to an eight. Because what we want to do is we want to make our estimates as accurate as possible so that we're charging a fair price.

And we know how much work we can get done in a certain amount of time because the project's got a go live date as an end date. And if we're estimating that, it's going to take 200 hours, but it needs to be done in 150. Then we know that we're over scope. So, we need to either strip out some features or increase the team size.

Yeah. Right. So, we're getting the estimate accurate as possible is to see if we're on track for that end date. Yeah.

It's an interesting way of doing it. I didn't really like this is the planning poker, right? Oh, yeah. Planning poker.

Exactly. Yeah. I didn't know. I didn't have no concept of this.

I had no idea this thing even existed and then I had to like, you know, you put it up in the notes and I've googled it. And I was like, that's a really interesting way of kind of looking at it. And it makes sense. It does make sense.

You know, the first maybe one or two times it feels a bit weird to like doing that, especially if you're doing it with, you know, with physical actual poker cards. You can get these, a planet poker, playing card decks. And they basically just cards with numbers, those numbers on them, you know, one, two, three, five, eight, thirteen, maybe bigger. And some of them have a question mark on them as well.

So if you're unsure, like let's say you're estimating for a backend task, the idea is that the whole team estimates whether it's your job or not. Right. Okay. But sometimes some people just have no experience of that.

So like, and then you can just put a question mark down and just say, I'm not sure that I'm happy to go with the majority is basically what you try to say there. Yeah. It feels a bit funny. The first couple times you do it feels a bit silly.

I thought, but once you see the value of it and, you know, it's really powerful tool and there's some really good websites as well. You can do this for remote teams. Yeah. It's really interesting.

I was just how it was googled. I was like, what the hell is that? And it's come across so many different things. I mean, articles and links talking about planning, focusing on the other diagrams of like the poker deck and a hand and things like that.

Well, this is really interesting. So I'm going to come back to that. Definitely have to read that. Yeah.

It's something that's only worth doing if you've got a team, you know, if you're a solo developer, then obviously you don't need to do this. Or even if you're just a team of one or two people. I think once you've got to a team size of about six or seven, and especially when you've got a team of multiple skills, designers, developers, back end QA and all that stuff, in one sprint, one scrum team. That's when you start when you need to do this or stuff.

Yeah, that makes more sense to work. It's like a game like a card game. You can't play, you know, with two players. You need at least five players, right?

Yeah, exactly. It's a similar kind of scenario, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, you could do it with two people.

It's pointless. It's probably better of just having the conversation. Yeah, exactly. It only makes sense when you've got to do it.

It's just when you've got different sort of opinion as well. Because the idea is that the task is presented to the team, whoever, on a screen or whatever, and everyone has their cards on them. And they choose a card to put your face down on the table. And it's only until everyone's put their vote in, then the cards are turned over.

Because you don't want other people's numbers to influence your vote. Right. So everyone has their own idea of how long it's going to take, and then you flip them over. And then you'll see the trend.

You might see everyone's vote for the same story, but everyone's got a number two on the table or something. But if everyone's got a number two on one person split 13, then that's a better reason for that. Yeah. So then you need to ask that person, do you want to give some more reasoning about why you think it's such a big task?

Or have you misunderstood what the task is? And a lot of the time it's a misunderstanding. Yeah. But then there may be a valid reason for that.

And then that's when the discussion opens up. Okay. Maybe we need to find a middle ground somewhere. Yeah, you've got that.

And then you potentially got maybe this part of a task that haven't actually been assumed correctly. And that one person's probably picked up on something and said, well, hang on a minute. I've actually done this before. I need to go a lot longer.

It was a bit more complex. Yeah. So that's why I'm giving it a higher score. Yeah, definitely.

They tend to have some scenarios in their mind when they're doing their estimating, which sometimes, you know, someone in the front end might not know about and, you know, obviously vice versa as well. And that's not going to be a stumbling book for me. Like whenever I'm playing this sort of planet poker with my team is a, I don't understand everything about the back end. So often I'll just put a question mark on those sorts of questions.

Let me say. Yeah, there's no point in, well, there is a point, there is a point in estimating as well, giving your opinion. But if you're definitely not sure you don't just want to put anything you want to try. Yeah, you can't need to go into your own majority then.

But generally it works and it's good. So it doesn't really come into the, for us, it is all about how long a task is going to take and how much effort is needed. It doesn't really, the pricing of it doesn't come into play because that's handled by, you know, handled by the sales team and project management and stuff like that. So anyway, let's take a short break and we'll be back after this message.

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Thank you to PorkBund for sponsoring our show. So what about for you? What about when you get a new project? How do you handle it?

Because you need to give a quote right before anything. Yeah, so I've got smaller tasks and jobs and I quote for them based on an hourly rate or a day rate. And it kind of varies depending on the size of the task. And then obviously the larger projects and the larger project will be your website.

So we go back to the smaller tasks and smaller jobs and that could be anything from doing an update to an existing website. It could be adding additional links or adding a page, really small sort of tasks. And so things like that, there's an hourly rate in place. And what we normally do is charge a minimum that an hour is going to be used to get that task done irrespective of if it takes half an hour.

So that hourly rate for the first hour is going to be billable anyway. And where I got that from was working with other agencies. So when I used to work with other agencies, they had that in terms of conditions stating that the hourly rate, even if it worked, it takes 15 minutes or half an hour. You're still liable to pay for the first hour anyway.

So I kind of took that and I kind of went with that. And it works really well, especially, you know, I get quite a lot of small jobs to do for clients on their websites. So it kind of helps with cash flow. It's a really good way to just keep the cash coming in and the work ticking over.

Yeah. And how did you find your rate for that? Yeah, that's an interesting thing. When I first started, I kind of looked around at what other freelancers were charging.

And this is before I got into web. So as a designer, graphic designer, I was looking at what other people were charging. And I kind of spoke to people within recruitment and people who targeted designers, you know, for designers for other companies and things. And they kind of helped me to price myself and they kind of put me within a bracket, if you like, as a junior.

And I kind of like started to get a bigger picture of how it kind of worked, how you explained it with juniors, you know, middleweight and then senior and things like that. And I kind of like went with that. So initially started off like 25, 30 pound an hour. Does my freelancer rate just working on design things and like logos and print design and things like that.

And then with more experience and understanding and realizing how much time it would take me to get things done. I was getting things done much faster. And it was like, well, I'm not really going to be turning over much money if I'm getting this job done even faster than I was before. Because you're stuck in his mindset.

Well, if I spend a lot of time on this task, I can earn quite a lot of money from it. But then the clients are prepared to pay that kind of money. You know, they expect it to be done quick and efficiently and things like that. So it kind of grew from there.

And, you know, I'm in a position now where I'm charging, obviously, I increased my rate. So it's about 60 to 70 pound an hour. And that is, again, is based on what other people who do similar kind of things are, you know, priced at even agencies that I know of. And that's what their hourly rates are.

But, you know, again, it's just for small jobs and things like that. And we're my bread and butteries on larger projects and, you know, on websites and things like that. And that's an interesting one because you've got people out there charging, you know, 500 pounds to build a website. And you're like, you know, how are you doing that?

You know, how are you living charging 500 pound per website? But then I always remember I started somewhere. And that's what I used to charge back in the day when I first sort of broke into the industry. And obviously, I don't know where I got the figure from.

It kind of was what people were charging at the time. I think that's a pretty fair rate for a simple website from someone who's, you know, a fairly junior person, around 500 pounds is a fairly fair rate. But there's only so much time you can keep that for. Yeah, definitely.

And I see that, you know, if I give a quote to a new client, someone I've never spoken to, I kind of break it down and give them a little proposal and a quotation for, you know, it could be a simple website, a brochure website that doesn't do anything complex. But because I've been doing it for a while now, I've got my pricing set. So let's say for a simple brochure website built on WordPress with a bespoke design mobile response and everything. I'd start from like 2k that'll be the minimum that I'd expect for that purely because of the amount of time I've spent now on working on, you know, WordPress sites, building sites, the number of clients I've got, the types of clients I've worked with as well.

You know, the values there, if you come with me, you're going to get what you pay for when the work's going to be good and, you know, it's going to be done properly. Whereas, you know, if I've gone to the new client and explained that and they'll turn around and instantly just say, oh, well, you know, I've spoken to someone so and they said they can do it for £500. And I've got to a point where I can say, that's fine, but you can go with that person. Yeah, there's always going to be someone who can do the job cheaper, no matter what.

Exactly. Yeah, definitely. And we get that in, you know, multi-million pound projects, you know, agency, we still get clients who are saying that, you know, you're priced too high. But then, you know, there's plenty of agencies who are priced much higher than us as well.

This is it. And I say that as well. I say that there's people, agencies in London, I mean, you've come to me, I'm branded as an agency and, you know, I have a number of people who will be working on this project. So you've got to think about that as well.

And that's being, you know, factored into the quote. Yeah. And there's other agencies that they will charge five times more than what I'm charging with 10 times more than I'm charging. They'll get heart attack.

They're like, well, that's crazy. They should be doing. They should be allowed to be. I said, well, you know, we can charge what we want to charge it in today.

You know, as long as it's going to be justified by the quality of the work that we're doing and it's going to help you out and help your business out. Yeah. I'm not involved in pricing ever really at work. There have been a couple of occasions where I've seen a quote that's going to look like because I've needed to maybe vet the quote before it goes out or just confirm everything's correct.

And I've seen, you know, the sort of prices that our company charges, it would be like a freelancer's dream to charge that sort of price for a single person. So you're saying that, you know, you start around two grand. That's like half a day's worth of charging for our projects. For maybe, you know, a team of three or four people that equates to about half a day.

Most of our projects go on for several weeks at the minimum. So we're talking. We're talking big, big money. So I'm quite happy I don't have to have those conversations with people because they can be quite difficult.

Yeah. And I'm glad that I've kind of figured it out for myself now. So I know where I'm at and what I should be charging for projects because I can kind of get a guideline of, you know, just by speaking to the client and, you know, what they're saying, I've got an idea of, you know, what their budget is going to be and, you know, where I should go in. And just to give you an example, I just spoke to a client yesterday, I had to drive all the way up to Hungerford to unspeak to a new client who I've just got on board actually, and these guys are like a A.V.

higher company. They're pretty big. And I turned up there and I was like, wow, okay, they're a lot bigger than what I was expecting them to be. And one of the guys that I spoke there, one of the directors, they already told me they've already, you know, had two quotes and one of the quotes, he basically just said, I'd rather spend the money on a Ferrari.

So I knew exactly what they've been quoted. And then he said, the other guy had quoted him something a bit more reasonable, but they didn't know that person. They didn't trust that person. And he seemed a bit flaky anyway.

So I had a ballpark. I knew where I was going to go in. And I went in at like the eight to 10 K mark and they were happy with that. So, you know, on the surface, I think what you see from the client, what they're saying, how they present themselves.

And, you know, that kind of gives you an idea as well. That kind of helps to determine what you're going to be charging. If you already know what your rates are and what you've charged previously for projects and things like that. And that kind of helps.

And it's a lifesaver when you've got a client like that. But when you have it, I mean, you've got, you know, tire kick is, you know, wondering around looking for the best bargain, especially for new designers like freelancers who are just getting into it and they wouldn't have an idea. They wouldn't know. They just want to get the work on board.

And I've been guilty of this in the past where I've taken people on just the sake of it, just to get the working. And those kind of clients prove to be more trouble than they're worth. And this is where the whole charging by the hour charging by the day thing, I don't really agree with it. Because you could take on a client where you know, you could probably spend, okay, it's a small job, like a logo design job, you can spend maybe two days on that job and you notice that a few days.

But then that two days will prolong and turn into a week. And then, you know, your pricing is that window, the client's not prepared to pay for it because you've already said to them, it's going to take two days, but it's taken a week. And that week could be prolonged because they weren't available to provide feedback or when they do provide the feedback is taken even longer to get the stuff done, get the work done. And when you're new in the industry, you're kind of like hesitant to say, well, you know, it's taken longer because you guys have asked for these changes and this and that.

And you haven't got any terms of conditions and you kind of agreed on two days. So you spend a week on a job that did you just take two days and you just get paid for the two days. So it's kind of like, I don't really agree with it, but, you know, you still got to use that kind of pricing model where you can. Yeah.

So that sort of bring it into my next question that I was going to ask you is, once you've then given a quote to a client, what steps do you put in place to ensure that that quote is remains accurate, you know, if your quote is based on days. Or do you, are you saying that you just don't quote on days now you quote for the whole job? Yeah, so any sort of web project anything that's to do with web, you know, web related to we're building a website for a client and that's going to be project based quote. So it will be, you know, I know what I've charged before, and then my base is going to be too grand as the minimum that I'm going to be charging for a website.

And if they want anything really, really technical in there, any kind of bespoke functionality or anything like that, then that kind of work I'm going to be looking at sort of a day rate if you like, just to get a ballpark figure of how much more time and if it's going to take to get that particular task. And then I'll kind of like, bolt that on to that 2k base for that project. But surely even with your base charge that you have, each project will still have a deadline. Yeah, well I kind of determined the deadline.

So I always put about three to four weeks on a web project. Okay. But if it's urgent and the client needs it done within a week, then I will charge more. Okay.

And have you been in situations where you've given your three to four weeks and you've gone over? Yeah, that's happened. And usually what happens is I always send out like a proposal to the client. And there's teas and season that which explain like, although this project's going to take three to four weeks, you know, there will be instances where it's like fall over at times and you know, an additional week could be added and that could be down to the client not providing content on time or it could be because, you know, we're really constrained and things, you know, really, really busy.

And they were generally happy with that. I've never had any issues where clients come back and said, oh, you know, this is taking far too long. But, you know, if it's down to the client, this is also mentioned in the proposal of teas and season if a client problems a project by asking for too many changes and amendments and things like that, then they're liable to pay per day for the additional work that's been carried out. So yeah, that's always factored in.

And I think this is one thing that a lot of freelancers don't get right. And this is what I get screwed over. And, you know, my recommendations is to get a bulletproof teas and season place. I could probably share the one that I'm using.

Yeah. And I think that's what I said. I'm going to put up the notes and that will help people out. And, you know, it literally just says if you guys, you know, take a mic, then you're going to pay for the additional time spent on this project.

Yeah, which is fair. Yeah. I think that's what it all boils down to really is whether it comes to estimating quoting as a freelancer in a massive company. It doesn't really matter.

It's a conversation that needs to be had and no two projects are going to be the same. So it's very hard to just, you know, put a blanket, blanket figure over everything and say, look, this is what we charge and this is how long this sort of project will always take. Variants. And yeah, like he said, tons of conditions are very important contracts are very important.

Maybe if you do an episode of contracts and all sort of things to include in that. Oh, definitely. I think that's a very handy for anyone out there who's getting involved because you've done quite a few episodes now to help people who are getting involved or who wanted like to take the plunge in development. You know, that's the whole doing the work side of it, but then you've got the business side of it and the financial side as well.

And contracts and all this kind of stuff. Yeah, it'd be good. Yeah. It's a big old topic.

Yeah, it's huge. All right, cool. I guess we've probably wrapped up there. We've covered all the stuff on the notes.

So some points to consider estimating is not easy. It's something that gets easier over time, but it's never, never easy at the beginning. And it's, you know, that's the whole benefit of making long-term relationships with clients as well. And these estimates can get more over time.

And you know, you can start introducing little nuances to the estimate as well. And there's an understanding, a two-way understanding over time as well. So it's a thing to do. Any final words?

No, not really. I think, you know, if you want to kind of price yourself in the industry, the best thing I could suggest is to get on Google and have a look at what other people are charging and have a look at what agencies are actually willing to pay for junior developers and freelancers as well, especially freelancers. They'll kind of dictate what the rate is and that rate's been pulled from somewhere. So any kind of like it balances itself out across the industry as well.

So they're very close. That's kind of right. So if you are a freelancer, you're getting into it. Have a look at those rates and see what these recruiters are willing to pay.

And you know, that'll kind of help you out. Yeah. And remember, there's always going to be someone who does it cheaper. Just try not to let that bog you down.

Try not to get into this mindset of undercutting people. Find your worth and try and stick with it. And values are very important. What you can provide for the client and the work that you're doing.

And the client usually determines that as well. So that's the way it works. Yeah, good stuff. All right.

We haven't tried it for a while. So what's been going on? Have you got any things that you want to recommend? And do you want to check it out?

Just come across your radar over the past couple of weeks. I actually came across a new, I don't know how new it is. It's a social media platform called Minds. I don't know if you've heard of it.

No, I haven't. Okay. It's very interesting. And I got onto it because of, I don't know why I got into it, to be honest.

I think Joe Rogan might mention it in one of his podcasts. But yeah, then I went on to Minds.com. I was like, well, this is pretty much like Twitter. Minds, I didn't like your brain.

Am I NDS? Yeah. Am I NDS? Yeah, I think it's Minds.com.

And I went on that. And it was like, well, this thing's to do with the blockchain. And then you basically earn Ethereum tokens and things like that. For, you know, if you post something and it gets likes and comments and things like that, then you get paid.

And I had no idea of that. I didn't know that that was behind it. I just liked the idea of it being somewhere where you can kind of like talk about anything without being put down. Yeah.

So there's all kinds of like adult themes on there. You've got very specific sort of like communities on there talking about very specific things. And I like that because Twitter is a place that's becoming very, very volatile and toxic. And you know, you can get involved in a conversation on there.

Before you know, you've got about 10, 20 people hounding you and sending you plenty, you know, fancy. Yeah. So mine seems to be very, very, very, but check out the podcast on Twitter. Check out Inspector Fimakut.

We're not toxic. Yeah. We're not. We're cool.

We're featured all day. I'm having a look at the Minds website. It said features on Joe Rogan podcast. Yeah.

So I've got the app down. It's really good. It's built really well and it works really nicely. So I came across that.

So it might be something for people might want to check it out. Yeah. Cool. Cool.

Cool. I'll check it out. All right. I'm going to send you to a website as well.

It's called. It's by Evernote.design. I was interested if any of the designers out there. And obviously the site's been created by Evernote, but it's not all about their service.

It's basically a bookmark of loads of design resources. Okay. And it's got everything on there. It's got like design inspiration sites, community sites, places for free icons, free UI resources, learning about stock photos, videos, accessibility, animation tools, and it's just a, it's just a, basically a repository of all these different websites and just categorized into.

I'll just pull that eyes pretty cool. And it's got so many things on it. It's a brilliant place to use as your jumping off point. If you're looking for inspiration printing, it's got like design books, places to get backgrounds and patterns, tools, collaboration tools, and all the way from your tools.

And each one, it's not just a bunch of links. You know, each one has a landing page that you can go to where you can read a little bit about what that product is before you then go and visit it. So yeah, it's a good place. It's pretty cool.

It's worth bookmarking and keep it pretty busy if you're going to look into all of that. I can see this like being Netflix before you watch anything. You just spent ages going for everything. Yeah, exactly.

Because I had someone asking me just a couple of days ago, like, where can I get some nice icons from? I can't remember where it was. And I sent them somewhere else, but then I came across this site and I was like, this is perfect. Someone needs icons to send them here.

It's got a whole category of icons, which has about 40, 50 different links on it. So yeah, it's cool. I like it when you completely do that. And there's open source, useful stuff for the whole community.

It's like Facebook.design as well, which is really good. If you're looking for UI templates, so if you're designing like an iOS app, they've got loads of tools. They've got loads of templates of iOS devices, which can then open up and sketch or figma or whatever. So it's good.

It's good when companies do this. It needs to happen more often. Yeah, definitely. This is going to be really handy.

I've booked market already enough. I'm going to spend a bit of time on this. Yeah, definitely. Links for these two things.

They'll be in the show notes as well as we've discussed. I'll put some links into some planet focus sites as well. And yeah, if you can dig out that terms and conditions template you've got can maybe be a Wikipedia for something of that. Sounds good, Michael.

It's all what we've seen. Yeah, speak to you there. Bye. Thank you for listening to today's show.

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