What's up y'all? I'm Skyler Diggins, seven times WNBA All-Star, Olympic gold medalist, and Mom. And I'm Cassidy Hubbard, a post and reporter for nearly 20 years, covering the biggest names and stories in sports and Mom. And this is and Mom, a community for athletes, game changers, and moms of all kinds.
Dropping May 14th. Happy and with us. If you're tired of endless scrolling to figure out where to eat, same. I'm Stephanie Wu, Editor-in-Chief of Peter.
We've just launched the new-ish and way better, Eater app. It has all the restaurants we love, gives you personalized picks wherever you are, and serves up smarter search results just for you. You can find my list of the best places for Martinis and Fries in New York City. And save your favorite spots, share lists, follow editors, and book right in the app.
Download the Eater app at EaterApp.com. It's free for iOS users. Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine in the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.
And I'm Sky Gallo, and Kara. On behalf of all entrepreneurs, I just want to give a big thank you to Facebook for fighting for us. Facebook, cares about Nick Kara. It cares about me.
Thank God. Thank God Facebook and Shrelsenberg are here to save us. Dry cleaners and cupcake. So you're out of breath, Scott.
We're going to get to that in a minute. You just been doing CrossFit? Is that what you've been doing? I did CrossFit this morning, but more than anything.
I've been doing 56. I'm fucking 56. Yeah, I'm older than you, Scott. I don't have my pity.
No mercy, no matter. Do you have any time that he lasts nights? Seriously. Do you know how many times I need a chamber pot?
It's getting so ridiculous. My CrossFit is the size of the antitrust violence. Bring it back to Pivot. Speaking of antitrust, the Texas Attorney General, the one who tried to do the election fraud bullshit and is also under investigation himself for all kinds of corruption, is suing Google on behalf of a coalition of states, the alleged accompanying manipulated ad markets and violating trust laws.
This is sort of the second shoot a drop in the Google stuff. These people weren't part of the bigger case that the Justice Department had. I think there were 20 states and now there's more adding into the situation. So here we are.
We have the Texas Attorney General to come after Google, which I think is interesting. Dots, just more of the same, essentially. Well, there's a couple things. One, all of a sudden, it's hip to be, hip antitrust, what are you going to call it?
What can I, everyone's decided on the left and the right. You read these press releases. It's kind of a, I mean, hey, they make some of them make very strong arguments. But mostly what they are is, hey, look at me, I should be governor.
Right. That's really powerful because once people decide that the clearest blue line path from the Attorney General's office to the governor's mansion, is to go after big tech. Yeah. You're going to have tremendous momentum against big tech.
So this is important. Also, if I understand, I don't know if this is the specific case, but this case, I believe it's a legend cooperation between Google and Facebook, where it's saying, OK, yeah, there was an interesting part about what's happened there. Yeah, that they're coordinating. And when you have the duopoly, the two agents of the duopoly coordinating with each other, then everyone else has absolutely no chance.
And that even breaches, that even goes beyond. That was redacted, but it's very questionable within there. Right. And that goes from kind of civil to potentially criminal, if they were hiding the fact that they were cooperating at the expense of other apps or ad markets that wanted placement on Google.
But they're basically, my understanding is alleging is that they get preferential treatment to Facebook. So this is, I think it's a big deal, but more than anything, this is, you know, I love that statement. I think Larry Sumner said it, but it's surprising how long things take and then shocking how fast they happen. That's true.
As it relates to any trust, we're in the shocking phase now. Well, you know, this is something we have talked about a lot for years, especially Kariswisher, like this idea of there not. You got that right until the last part. A special A Kariswisher.
Come on. A special A Kariswisher. Go back, my friend. OK.
Go back to when you wrote a book on the floor. Go back. You're right. I am the OG of the OG.
Love them. You love them. Not Facebook. You do love Facebook.
You think I forgot? I used to. Yeah. Meanwhile, well, speaking of which, Facebook is also building a new video product that basically ripped off Cameo.
You paid a jump into videos with celebrities and takes. I think this will be a failure by Facebook. It's another stupid feature that they're not going to do a good, and Cameo's doing a very good job at their business. But typical, typical, I just interviewed the CEO.
I think the key is, as long as it's on the portal, and I can pay with Libra, I think it's going to be a big hit. It's not called Libra. It's called game or dime or something. The idea.
They've changed the name. Yeah. It's called, I don't know what their their effort is called, game, and it's changed and it's still not going to work in any case. And the third thing, speaking of like really big stories, the Texas Attorney General who's really an appalling figure in so many ways, by the way, so it's good that Facebook has this particular enemy in that case.
But is that meanwhile, as these people are making all this ridiculous PR noise and so we have on important cases, the Russian government has been in our business, in our business, in our federal business. And let me just read you this lead from a story yesterday from David Sanger and Nicole Pirloth and Julian Barnes. Over the past few years, the United States government has spent tens of billions of dollars on cyber offensive abilities, building a giant war room at Fort Meade, Maryland for United States cyber command. It's headed by Paul Nakasomi, by the way, while installing defensive sensors all around the country, a system named Einstein to give it an air of genius to deter the nation's enemies from picking its networks clean.
Again, it is now clear the broad Russian espionage attack on the United States government and private companies under way since the spring is detected by the private sector only a few weeks ago ranks among the greatest intelligence failures in modern time. I mean, really, what are they doing over there at Einstein? Einstein is not so smart. He missed it.
I heard the renaming the program, Bozo. No, I mean, really seriously. Yeah, this is a big deal. We again get it wrong around this stuff.
The wars are being fought in cyberspace and we have decided to unilaterally disarm. And it's too bad if you think about, I mean, cyber security stocks, that is going to be a very interesting place to work or to train. You're going to see vocational programs just explode around giving people skills around cyber security. But this is, this really is the next run in our battle.
Yeah. Have you done any reporting around this? I have it. I'm going to because I think it's not, you know, as usual, the United States government is hiding at what's really happening because that never changes, right?
This idea. And of course, a national security advisor, Robert O'Brien, who's such a fatuous pomper Jay. He was like swanning around the Middle East and Europe with his wife going to the Louvre on special, whatever, whatever. He's now running crisis meetings, but they just haven't done anything.
This administration has just watched his, you know, what's interesting is now in some of these hearings there about the election fraud that went on yesterday. They were like, we spent all this time, you know, looking at the fake Russian hoax. And here they are. It's not a hoax.
Like this is ridiculous. We have not been paying attention to what the Russians can do here. So I will be doing a lot of recording this. But, you know, you know, like someone like David Sanger, who we've had on is sort of the expert on this stuff.
But it's just really amazing how many areas the Russians have gotten into of our business. And this idea, the strategy of counterattacking, which is called defend forward. And it put beacons all over the world to warn about coming attacks had no deterrence to the Russians, no deterrence whatsoever. Because beyond that, I mean, for example, you and I have been, you and I have Russian trolls in our Twitter feed every day trying to influence or undermine our credibility around issues that they see counted their interests.
Yeah. There's no fear of reprisal on behalf of Twitter's border, their share price. So there needs to be else. This is the opportunity here.
Is this in addition to climate? This would be a fantastic means of repair. This would be a fantastic connective tissue to say to our allies. Look, and say, look, the last four years, if we can, we're going to try and press a reset button.
And just as we had a North Atlantic treaty where we all decided to invest in tanks and army to stand at the Polish Russian border to ensure we kept the peace around a region that kept breaking out into world war, it would be this would be a huge opportunity for like-minded democracies to form an interpol North, you know, North at NATO like alliance around cyber security in our first enemy that we would all put up defenses against and then get off our heels onto our toes and start, I don't know, shutting entire cities down and saying, you know, stand down and we're going to start getting back. But this would be an opportunity to say, we're going to go somewhere. Yes, the Biden administration come out swinging here. This is exactly where they should come out swinging.
The Trump administration is just incompetent to this task. What's interesting is it's not clear whether they've reached into classified systems, but they certainly got through all kinds of unclassified system. And it's considered the biggest ever. It's just the first thing the government has to do is be transparent about what's happened here and they don't want to.
It's a private company, right? They're going to be recognized. Yes, solar winds. Anyway, it's very complex.
What has to happen is the government has to become very transparent about what's gone on here so that we can work together to do something. And then the Biden administration should hit hard on the Russians on this issue. I mean, this is not the cold war. It's the digital war and the Russians are really quite good.
And to say there is a hoax around Russian hacking. It's just your dumb as a box of hammers if you think that's the case. Anyway, also lastly, for our Bantas Scott, your buddy, Mayor Pete, got a cabinet position. Hello, Dreamy at the airport.
I'm sorry. I get off the plane. I don't get it. I like Queen's Buttigieg.
But come on, there's not a more qualified person to deal with the other cars. No, no, be clear. There are thousands of people more qualified. He's the best man for the job.
Why? Tell me why. Because I literally have a list of my long people who know about infrastructure. Although, apparently, according to his husband, there's going to be an infrastructure week finally.
Wait for it, which I'm excited about. Well, even along things along the lines of climate change, the government were to make a real impact or a statement or start creating elegant solutions around climate change and also recognize the balance of economic growth. The Department of Transportation runs a pathway through those two issues. So also, if you think about, I mean, a big question, everyone's talking about what gets better coming out of the pandemic, what new things do we do?
And I think the bigger question is what things do we leave behind? And in Florida, it's been spectacular because we have less nitrous oxide and other bullshit in the air because there's been a reduction in traffic. Citizens, American households, spend 12% of their income on transportation is an opportunity to have a more forward-looking strategy. He's a smart guy.
He's a smart guy. He's a smart guy. He could be bikes. It could be autonomous vehicles.
It could be municipal transportation. It could be tunnels getting you from downtown to the airport in eight minutes instead of 45 minutes. It could be airports that represent the promise of America. He like airports.
He proposed to his husband in an airport. He made an adorable gay, adorable love story thing in there. I felt like I'm speaking of temperature checks. He loved actually.
He calls airports romantic. He's a sexy beast. No, let me just say, something Amanda told me who was thinking about it. It's like, look, he's very confident.
But like, oh, give it to the smart white guy who figured out versus like possible qualified people. Well, thank God. Thank God there's a white man here to save. I'm sure he can.
He's very smart. It's just like the person I think is interesting is the former EPA chief Gene McCarthy who's going to be White House climate czar. I suspect she will have more power in that regard. It's actually an area expertise person.
That cabinet post used to be the giveaway that he gave to a Republican to try and single you were bipartisan or he gave it to a person of color to say, hey, I get diversity. That cabinet position likely gets much more attention, much more oxygen and frankly, transportation is just becoming increasingly important. When you think about how much time we spent talking about innovation or personal transportation, I'm just very excited. He and I are going to go around on a scooter when he gets to DC.
I think that's what I should do. The best title I saw in his appointment, best article is planes, trains and endless ambition. Do you think I should socialize with him? Like a bear in your head?
With a bear in your head? A bear in your head? A bear in your head? A bear in your head?
A bear in your head? A bear in your head? A bear in your head? A bear in your head?
A bear in your head? A bear in your head? A bear in your head? He's real midwestern and a real struggle being gay.
But it was great, actually. Yeah, so we're gonna hang out. We're not gonna be inviting you because it's just gonna be, you know? I would be so much fun.
Oh my God. I'd be the best fifth wheel we'll ever. Could I say? Who could you if Pete Buttigieg became my best friend and I just refused to let him talk to you?
That's not fair. I know, not fair. Me and Pete, I've been a big supporter of their people. You know, by the way, this is a big one.
You don't even be President when I thought? I thought I thought America was going to be President or I was just dying to see him on the stage. Yeah. Now you can.
But you know who's my new man crash? New York should he decide to yang that's right. That's right. You want to talk about a city There is a capital of America and everybody capital the world We all have a vested interest in its excess that represent that be tough city to govern 100% So we need a creative thinker we need innovation of ideology.
I am on the yang gang for mayor of New York I like Andrew. I do like Andrew. He's a really lovely man. He seems like he's parachuting in one other competent man dare shooting in He's uh, we need ideas.
We need young blood. New York is gonna have tremendous challenges When I can be field the big field there. Why it is a big field But you know what he's gonna win. What every day he's gonna make news on ideas every day.
He's gonna overwhelm the airwaves I think he's a shillen. Oh, okay. All right. Okay.
We'll see. We'll see. I'm gonna say I think I think I'm gonna win Mayor Pete and soon to be soon to be Mary Yang Get on board. It's mayor.
Yang not Mary Yang. Mary. What did I say? Mary Yang not Mary Yang I feel triggered you you show you discriminate against old white guys that can't you know You know, right?
You know Andrew. Yeah, I do. Okay. Okay.
Let's have one. Let's have one. All right. You do that.
Remember Beato. Remember your Beato love them to say it. Don't be Hey, look, look, New York's a tough friggin place. All right.
We're moving on to Beato and I have taken a break. Sometimes you just need to take a break for both parts You move from competent man to competent man, don't you competent? Angela Merkel is my role model She is my role model. I love her speaking of which another competent man who is just a little bit You know somewhat seems like a lightweight a little bit is mark a macron who seems to be tough now He has it's covered.
He's covered. I was beginning to think the good looks were the ultimate immunity against COVID I mean look at people been getting it. Very ugly people. That's terrible.
That's terrible. Oh my god I know you don't see look you don't see look we're moving on to big stories Facebook is launching offensive attacking and samples part of their long simmering battle Facebook Lashdown at Apple in a series of full page ads ironically in the New York Times the Wall Street Journal Washington Post newspaper ads saying they're Physical newspaper ads saying we're standing up to Apple for small businesses everywhere. This is the reaction to Apple's new iOS 14 operating system The ability of companies to gather data about users using an advertising Facebook executives are calling the behavior anti competitive It is a simply changing something from an opt out to an opt-in Facebook says they're helping they'll be helping video game company Behind the popular game Fortnite Epic Fortnite has been a legal battle with Apple for monopolistic behavior in the app store Last week's Apple CEO Tim Cook took a swipe at other big tech companies in a podcast interview saying you can be the great Amplifier of misinformation of violence and a lot of different things out there We don't want to be any part of this We don't want to be part of the hate at all and I feel by and large we've avoided that so and he said he's you recall many years ago He sort of took a swipe at Marc Zuckerberg previously So the people at Facebook consider Apple high-handed and sanctimonious the people at Apple just think Facebook is just it's just a toxic waste Don't essentially that's my read on the situation The whole thing it's like watching you it's like watching Angela Lansbury get into a fight with Peter fall from member Colombo Yeah, it's kind of weird and uncomfortable and these two first off. Do you have a side?
Oh? You know like they're both full of shit. So so Facebook Facebook is a menace I don't think Apple was a menace and it distinctive to who's a better or lesser person the reality is Facebook makes the whole world is iOS slash Android and Facebook is Android and then it gives products away for free and then monetizes them with advertising and Advertising is a function of collection of data and Apple has basically tried to try to privatize media through apps where they say pay for this app And we won't barrage you with advertising. So when Tim Cook goes after the privacy violations as a function of their business model It's very self-serving because he's taking a 30% tax on anyone who opts out of the ad model and goes to cable So he's cable or he's HBO Marc Zuckerberg is the old line CBS and all of a sudden Tim Cook is saying that those ads on CBS are bad for you come to cable.
They're both talking their own book I think it's wonderful to see big tech going after each other not only do you have the FTC and the DOJ and AG is going after They're not going after each other. Yeah So the best way to defeat an enemy and I do believe the externalities of big tech not big tech itself are the enemies is to atomize the enemy and get them Fighting each other and that's what is happening here. So go go out each other go out each other Yeah, but this let's talk about the diversion strategy Facebook's using here. They're facing new antitrust allegations from the federal Trade Commission This helper a small business is is just fine They serve small businesses, but they serve Facebook is really the center of Facebook's universe is Facebook But small businesses really the heart and soul of this company because when they got attacked by big ad buyers Wasn't a big deal to them when they had to you know stop the hate because their business are these small businesses doing advertising So talk about this diversion strategy.
Well, there's a few points there one The greatest asset of Facebook is it has the most elastic revenue base or the most self-healing revenue based in the history of mankind I think it has 18 million customers and no I don't think anyone customer represents more than 1% of their business So any one individual advertiser or even groups of advertisers are just not a threat So they're they're just impenetrable in terms of in terms of revenue revenue threats The the notion of in this goes to a larger point Republicans love tax cuts the best we need a series of talking points and one of those talking points needs to be the following that every medium in the past Whether it's advertising whether it's catalogs has been a means of competitive differentiation What do I mean by that Nike figured out a way to bring together creative talent to use advertising as a means of creating sustainable competitive advantage around the Brand they're just better at advertising their competition We have snowman figured out a way to leverage databases and USPS to establish competitive sustainable shareholder value through the deaf Use of direct mailing catalogs the genius of Google and Facebook is they have made these tools so egalitarian They've made the methods of advertising on Facebook and Google so egalitarian so easy to sign up All you need is a credit card some time watching YouTube videos and boom You can be 98% is good on Google and on Facebook is PNG and Ford and Nike are Text your own simragol. This was her thing at Google and at Facebook So just so you know, so it's an absolute genius strategy But here's the thing no individual company is able to establish an advantage and when every company is spending money effectively It doesn't go from a weapon or an attribute it goes from a tax So if you want to talk about the largest tax cut in history on small and medium sized business It would be to break up these companies thereby reducing their power and reducing the rents that every business in America pays the Facebook and Google You have no choice my education startup section 4. We're on we buy keywords. We're on Facebook Why I hate them both we have no choice.
Yeah, that was a lot of the reaction yesterday. You have no choice So what do you think of their idea that you're friends pretty much all the small business like we don't like them They're not that we just have to be there We're like surfs and one of the interesting things I noticed was a lot the reaction for Facebook has not been good on this Which let's Apple even if you think Apple's sanctimonious or whatever or it's in their interests or they're you know Deque here I thought well the Mossberg had a really good reaction the king of privacy theft Facebook is running ads attacking Apple the leader in privacy protection all because Apple is shifting to an opt-in system from an opt-out system for Deusers to allow data sharing with advertisers Facebook's must be here folks won't opt in I wonder why Yeah, look they said these are both heroin dealers They're there their their cut consumer base is addicted or totally dependent upon the drip of Facebook and Google AdWords and advertising And they used to be all right you take you take the high school I'll take them all and now they've decided that no that's my territory and they're trying to tell their respective addicts Right their heroin is bad. This is Google. I'm talking about Apple Apple doesn't traffic in this.
Oh, yeah, well Apple does Okay, but to be clear Apple doesn't traffic in that what Apple traffic is in is if you want to enjoy the Internet You have to do it through an app and we're gonna take a tax on everything Do you realize Roblox pays 25% of all revenue to the Apple Google or Amazon? So Apple's just saying look we're gonna we want you to continue to pay a tax We just want that tax to come to us in the form of a 30% commission on the apps you buy without advertising They're all in the business of addiction owning the rails monopoly power They just monetize it differently so they become sanctimonious about each other Mark Zuckerberg has a point pushing back But to somehow say we basically what he said is he's a mob boss saying guys if I go to jail so are you right? Don't be clear if I go down so are you and where they where they lost the narrative here if they said look Let's be clear. We're about our business models advertising.
There's is about the app economy They charge you a lot of money that said you don't have advertising We give you great products for free sets that you and you have to pay which they have done great products And you have to look at some ads on Instagram you choose which model you want but be clear be clear. Mr. Cook does not care about your privacy He does not care about the country he cares about shareholder value and this is awfully convenient But where the bridge too far here where they undermine themselves and they shot themselves in the foot and reflected how insular they are Facebook But they shot was claiming to be the champions of small business Give me a fucking break Facebook. Do you think anyone believes you do you think any small business person says thank God Facebook is out there fighting for us And come on talk about a lack of self awareness.
What you do if you're Apple? How do you respond to this besides saying privacy is you know They can't play that you're right. They're making money in the app store Right? They're making money over here, but the idea of opt in versus opt I think I'm with opt in and I don't understand I have no problem with opt in and I think most of these ad companies do They do exactly one thing Apple does exactly one thing nothing Roll their eyes they go on background they educate journalists, but they do not go on record Tim Cook That's like that's like macron getting into a fight with Marsha Blackburn from Tennessee He just doesn't need to go there.
They don't they go on background. They release data, but Tim Cook right now his image He is he is you know He is Cara Swisher and Facebook is I don't know Tucker calls it. He just shouldn't respond Okay, let them be crazy will help will arm you with data to show how hypocritical this is or the you know Facebook is just trying to create diversion, but Tim Cook does not does not need to get into a direct pissing match He should ignore him. It's like when tip o' kneel refused to debate any candidate.
He should refuse to debate right? I'm going background no official statement and one of the things that's but one thing's important Is this idea of privacy protection like that they're which they can afford to do because that's they don't not in the same business You can say we're for privacy and privacy is not your business But you know violating privacy, but does this have what does it have the impact on the broader government stuff? That's going on with them fighting each other. It's a good question.
I have a good answer Do you have any thoughts? You know, I think probably Facebook's more of a demon to government, right? So because they can directly link it to consumers The fight Apple's having which is important is it fights with epic and things like that And as you said they've done profit that you know at doing making concessions right now on those issues is something Apple should do Continue to make concessions the well Facebook sticks to its guns I think is the best thing they should do is continue to make concessions I can afford on the app store I don't know if there's a full solution to it because there are only two systems essentially So I'm not sure what to do about it So I think if the concessions they're making and cooperation with app developers would be the move I would make I'd settle with epic Yeah, well They made that sort of aggressive I thought genius move of reducing cutting in half the tax on app developers if you if you have less than a million Revenue, which was a genius move because they only gave up about two percent of the revenue and kind of made themselves look good, but Yeah, so much of this what we forget so much of this is around like ability and Tim Cook is a fantastic like ability shield She'll Sambrook is kind of kind of used up all her nine lives of like ability So people are no longer buying that rap, but Tim Cook is still the most likable guy the next one who's who's like ability? Shield I've been playing Fortnite with my son and you buy or you find these little things of energy that give you more protection or whether or more health And soon it's gonna start using up his health when all the information comes about around how aggressive Google has been and how they basically own Both sides of the trade in exchanges.
He's gonna become quite you're right But Tim Cook still has the most like ability shields to to spend or to run through but it's gonna it's gonna happen to him too I don't know. I think they're the only one that doesn't end up with some sort of split either self-imposed or impose on them Yeah, I'll make a regulation is coming regulation around the app store. Just makes yeah I think they're big their best argument to me is why can't people just click to decide like what is your problem with that? And obviously it's a loaded question of course they have a problem with that But it's saying why not just the people opt into their information being sucked up, you know the big giant sucking sound from Facebook What's wrong with that?
We're protecting people? I think they shouldn't go too hard. We're protecting But I do think it's a really good argument to say what's wrong with disclosure like just keep saying it There's a big settle appeal to regulators. We're for disclosure more disclosure I kind of stuff and then fight the other fight separately It is kind of stupid for mark to sort of wrap himself into small business at the same time saying we're gonna help your enemies hurt you You look like such a such a little shit I don't know what I mean like it's not none of these moves are smart by Facebook I think so do you what would you do right now if you're Facebook pull stop doing this or would you want because they can't I don't think They're gonna stop Apple.
I don't think they're gonna stop Apple from doing this Is it relates to Apple? Yeah, I don't know I think this is a I think this is an Unproductive fight if I were first off as Tim Cook said I wouldn't be in this position But if I were on the board of Facebook and I wasn't a weirdo or a sick of fan actually wanted to act as a fiduciary for the Commonwealth or shareholders I would say you know what prophylactically we need to get out there We need to kick Zuckerberg up to chairman. We need to bring in a new CEO and we need to immediately announce the spin of WhatsApp and Instagram and by the way our stocks gonna go up You know what's really interesting here is since basically in the last three months Everybody is known something's gonna happen to Facebook in terms of antitrust. There's been rumors Everyone and what's happened to the stock it's gone up.
So the marketplace again Everybody's gonna win the taxpayers are gonna win the Commonwealth is gonna win innovation is gonna win the employees of Facebook The shareholders are gonna win the only person that loses is the person who controls the company and wants it to be bigger Because they're a power hungry sociopath He's gonna be richer than ever. He's gonna be richer than ever John Rockefeller when they broke up standard oil into 34 Companies that became wealthier that prick. Yeah, he became wealthier. So what would I do?
What would I do? I would get out ahead? He's a young man. I asked someone this at Facebook and they were like he's a young guy doesn't want to give a power Like I don't know what else that's not in his DNA.
He can't do it. He can't do it and this really wrinkles him You know, it's time it's real the last thing I'd say is what would you do? I think he's not gonna he this is what he does. There's a difference between what will he do and what would you do?
What would you do? I think you're right? I think he's gonna he should be any trust of vision of the DOJ has a budget of $150 million. I think Mark Zuckerberg will give his lawyers $250 million and say make this go away Yeah, it's always been a mistake mark has has an unfailing sense of making the wrong move the Gresam.
I think he's used up speaking of like ability He was you know, they instead of just cooperating with the Trump administration as Apple did listen Apple was right in those rooms with Trump and Being friendly to Ivanka and Jared and they did all those things You know, let them on tours of things But they didn't do this bear hug that Facebook did of the Trump administration, right? They all of these companies did a quiet, you know, disagreeing publicly now and again when it was egregious, but essentially cooperating You're getting Facebook teal and Trump had the first time Apple Apple did the amount that they needed to do, right? They did not they completely run but Facebook literally did a bear hug beyond bear hugs and I think now they're I don't know I just will see I think they're gonna get their head handed to them because of that they can't ever do anything with any kind of You know, subtlety. I can't do subtlety.
Well Peter teal who's on the board of Facebook and arguably the second most powerful person at Facebook You know being sitting next to Donald Trump marks Zuckerberg having secret meanings with Donald Trump I mean, this is the unholyest alliance of the last ten years and it was very straightforward and we should not forget their name Rupert Murdoch didn't look as didn't appear. You know what I mean? Like they talk about someone who's uncle Satan is I like to call it. Rupert Murdoch has read the You didn't see a lot of Rupert hanging with he did phone calls, right quiet phone calls Just I just find this company to be as the least subtle group of people and they're making they're always righteous and great Like the texts you get from them.
They're tweets. They're always like righteous righteous all the time And when they call you and say that's not fair that Scott said I was the worst thing to happen Just like you start texting me late at night and you hurt my feelings I mean delicate little flower. I just think Tim Cook you're right should say very little and just put the stuff out I think they're in a much better position here even if they have their own issues They're not even close to what the Facebook issues are and in discovery. It's not gonna be pretty for Facebook It's just not I can't imagine there are not email after email after email in Microsoft in way I just get a failure the failure Facebook one of the biggest they will ultimately end up resulting in them living or getting more damage from these Anti-trust actions and getting more punitive action that's more emotion failed Then then kind of legally driven is that they failed to read oligarchy for dummies and the key to being a successful oligart Is you use your proximity to power to economically enriching yourself?
But you don't get so close such that when that person loses power You're infected and they got too close to the president and the means of infection the virus was Peter Teal Peter Teals proximity to Trump and to Zuckerberg Has revealed that they were in bed with each other and a Biden Harris administration is not gonna be excited to in any way defend Facebook It is gonna come back to haunt them They whereas Rupert Murdoch would always do a meeting with Obama supposedly was backroom deals between Rupert Murdoch and Obama Murdoch was too smart to get infected. He was an effective oligarch Yeah, whereas Facebook has been infected by the Trump administration They're not gonna forget all those photo ops with Peter Teal and Donald Trump and all those There were supposedly two secret dinners between the zock and the president. I wonder what they were talking about They just can't do it they can't do it. They actually are they literally think they're gonna win here and they're just not their history They don't they're not students of history and this is not I can't spend their way out of this and by the way They have so many enemies now.
Everyone hates them. I've said this over and over again literally even people who used to work there hate them Other companies hate them, you know and Google's been smart and keeping their head down even if they've done some like we should be talking About this on Monday the issues around the firing of a very prominent AI researcher there You know, they've done some terrible things and yet don't seem to attract, you know, this guy attracts People's unhappiness like lint on a shirt on a shirt. Anyway, we're gonna take a quick break when we come back We'll talk about speaking of companies that we do not hold in high regard Massachusetts holding Robin Hood accountable and a listener may have question Hey, I'm Appi Shell comedian writer and floating head you may or may not have seen on your 4u page And I'm starting a brand-new podcast wait wait don't swipe away It's called that sounds like a lot as in that feeling when you check your phone in the morning you read three headlines And you really think oh that sounds like a lot I can't deal with all this but guess what I can deal with it and I'm gonna get into it every Friday I'll break down whatever chaos is happening in the world then I'll sit down with a comedian You can be progressive and not be like fucking annoying. Maybe an actor They go feminism is going too far you go why does the Sadie Hawkins dance happen?
Maybe a filmmaker since leaving that show I'm challenged to sparing I just got to hang out and try to do it with a charmed life could be a politician basically anyone who responds to my cold DMs we're recording the whole thing in a beautiful studio So yes, you can watch it on YouTube or you can listen wherever you get your podcast This is not the place to get the news, but it is the place to feel a little better about it That sounds like a lot part of the Vox Media podcast network I'm Maria Sherpova and I'm hosting a new podcast called pretty tough every week I'm sitting down with trailblazing women at the top of their game to discuss ambition work ethic and the ups and downs that come in the Path to achieving greatness We'll dive into their stories and get valuable insights from top executives actors entrepreneurs and other individuals who have inspired me so much in My own journey follow pretty tough wherever you get your podcast Scott we're back everybody loved your rant last week about vaccines and masks which I thought everyone mentioned to me They love angry Scott, but the Massachusetts secretary of state filed a complaint against Robin Hood containing the company's game of Fies investing so I would like a rant from you in the filing secretary William Galvin said Robin Hood quote uses aggressive tactics to attract Inexperience investors its use of gamification strategies to manipulate customers and its failure to prevent frequent outages and disruptions on its trading platform Robin Hood disputed these claims and a response into the company will defend itself vigorously Robin Hood has seen record growth in 2020 people have been home So they've been busy trading stocks the company posted three million new customers in the first four months of 2020 I'm not sure how that's going right now, but Scott your time to shine. How big a step is this do you see other states joining the effort? I do I want you to I want you to do Robin Hood's defense of this too Well, Robin Hood's defense would be that they're democratizing trading then investing and learning around about investing and establishing market knowledge that you can build economic security for you and your family is a wonderful thing and they're just bringing innovation and free trading and parse shares you could buy one tenth of a share of Apple for people who want to start with You know 10 bucks instead of 120. There's a lot of wonderful things to like about Robin Hood And there's a lot of wonderful things to like about big tech that doesn't mean that over time the idolatry of innovators and their pursuit of wealth It doesn't create turn them into an absolute menace and the question we all we all need to ask it Illuminates the opportunity here and this is an opportunity is if we could go back in time and say alright over the course of the next 15 years this individual What do you think he is good or bad is going to create an entity and acquire so much power and so much shareholder value that it's gonna Result 20 the externalities of his actions and his like ability shield his lipstick on cancer is can result or be one of the primary drivers of more Teenage girls being admitted to hospital rooms because of self-harm and self-cutting We're gonna find that our elections a key component of our democracy are gonna lose so much legitimacy at a minimum and maybe maybe even Perverted because they don't put in place the safeguards to protect the business he develops if we could go back in time We would say we need to address this menace We are at that point with Robin Hood They are using gamification if you go and read the disclosures if you go sign up for an account on Robin Hood versus Schwab You're gonna recognize that this is different They are trying and then if you look at the visual cues and the gamification the behavioral triggers and the fact that they have no customer service And the fact that they make their money by front running or selling this data to hedge funds who can then front run their consumer The fact that if you find people stealing money from your account you get an automated email back the fact that we are seeing young people Or Robin Hood traders trade 88 times on a size adjusted basis the number of options as regular investors You think okay when you have the trading in the 1990s when Robin Hood goes down all of a sudden There's a massive dip in volume and trading in the markets.
This is not only a wrist or young men It's a risk to the markets. It also absolutely outlines the algebra of deterrence They continue to violate SEC laws because at a $12 billion private valuation their attitude is hey government fuck you Yeah, issue us your stupid tickets like you it's like those movies where a guy gets pulled over in his Ferrari and someone writes And it tick it and crumbles up the ticket and throws it at them with a couple or it's like the wolf of Wall Street When Leo de Caprio says to an SEC official to start throwing money at them and kicks him off his boat That's what Robin Hood is doing So what I would ask what I would I want to salute the Secretary of Commerce I think it seems Calvin state Secretary of Secretary of Commerce I think it's a secret to the secretary of state but go anyways. Thank you for that is I would say if you could go back in time and address a menace before it went public before it got too much power before we found that Young men a big leading cause of depression and markets systemic risk in the market and blatant flouting of SEC laws If you could go back in time and cauterize that nose bleed before it turned into an all-out hemorrhaging would you do it? We're at that moment and by the way when David Solomon the CEO Goldman Sachs issues these thoughtful warnings that the markets are getting overheated Yeah, and then announces it that are the lead underwriter for Robin Hood.
It's like well boss music is imagine the words here Well, come on. Come on. These guys This is an opportunity this is an opportunity. Yeah, then just so you know William Francis.
Yeah, he's the Massachusetts secretary of the Commonwealth But it's the secretary of state You win again. You win again. I want to make it accurate. You're correct.
We're both correct We are both correct. He's the secretary of state but of the Commonwealth Massachusetts, which is what it calls itself I would agree with you. I think that the investor group is an aggressive group here in Robin Hood I think they will continue to throw money at these companies at these regulators and I think they'll they'll just plowing forward I just don't see there again another righteous group of people like how dare you like the amount of how dare you you know You know interrupt my jam is so high right now among these people not just them But everybody you know there was a you know, they're doing what they want to do They're doing what they want to do and they're continuing in whether it's misogynistic behavior whether it's sexist behavior Whether it's you know, not adding enough diversity. They don't care They there's nothing they don't aren't accountable And so I think they will this is great that they're doing this But they will slough it off if they can and not address the actual issues because they don't they've convinced themselves There's not an actual issue here and that they're democratized just like Facebook is helping small business They're democratizing investing and that's the only thing to look at I just don't I think they lack of self-awareness and self-reflection is so high that it's almost impossible to like I just don't We lack some self-awareness and that is we need to we need to elect more people like the secretary of state who have the backbone to recognize an early Menace and prevent a tragedy of the commons these two young men who are the co-seos of Robinhood if we're waiting on their better angels to show up if we think our shaming is going to change your behavior Don't hold your breath when it's raining money it blurs your vision to the incremental decisions you make that might have a negative Extra now into a certain extent.
It's not their job You know what product feature perfectly defines the Robinhood app there is a feature no joke if you tap a button a hundred times Within a certain amount of time unlocks a low a high yield checking account So if you start acting like a rat if you go full rat if you go full lizard brain on our app you get rewards Yeah, I mean this is they're not even trying to hide that we're trying to addict you with this kind of the dark Behavioral triggers and you're talking about young men in their basements. Oh, by the way I just want to really shout out all the tremendous changes and how seriously they took the suicide of Alex Kerns I know a 20 year old male who decided to throw himself in front of a train because he received an errant message that reflected incorrectly that he owed $700,000 to Robinhood they've done Robinhood. Thanks so much. You clearly you know what these two kids are the two people running them I know one thing's for damn sure they don't have sons this is this company is a fucking menace You know this is an opportunity to go back in time and find the menace before it turns into a powerful menace Well, let's name some names here So they have 18 rounds of funding amount of funding $2.2 billion guess who's in here and Drieson Horowitz what a surprise and Think called Rippet capital.
There's a whole bunch of investors here who are part of this and it's just D1 capital partners IVP TSG consumer partners sequoia capital DST that's a group that originally invested in Facebook DST global and so it's the same it's the same people it's literally the same Well, I have more I actually have more faith in Goldman There's an investment committee that has to approve IPOs and I find that actually they do look at I'm not a cynical I do think that they look at a company its ethics the CEO I think this investment committee a Goldman needs to re-examine whether or not they want to be the lead underwriter on Robin They're truly concerned about the markets and I'm not even talking about them around I love David. Why don't you dial up David and do a little I like it a lot and he's a good person Alright the dial them up Scott Galloway, you know, I'm just saying I think they're not gonna do anything I think these people do it every with Facebook. They're gonna do it at Robinhood I think your idea of a menace economy is absolutely right and they'll only do something when it gets to a point of real pain for people or PR pain or something they only moved on Travis Kalnick after a long long time This is the opportunity. This is the equivalent of primary care If we move if and that's not to say that Robinhood couldn't be a great company But if they move in now and say alright you have to de-gamify this thing You have to have better disclosures around what you were doing with this trading data They are going to say it's like an ounce of proof, you know an ounce of prevention here It's gonna say the pound of cure can you say they're not gonna change if they don't think they're doing anything wrong and they don't think they're doing anything wrong I'm not saying they should do it to themselves.
I have absolutely no faith in them to do the right thing I'm saying that that as the Secretary of the state of Massachusetts is doing I would invite other AGs and Goldman Sachs to say look Something is wrong in mudville and before mudville before the squirt gun Which is squirting toxic shit into people's eyes becomes a howitzer and we have a real real problem Raining it and look at how much money it's gonna cost look at the fight to rain and Facebook right now Look how much damage they have levied on our nation and other nations We're in it. We're in a moment to cauterize that damage with Robinhood Scott I love your faith because I think they'll do they'll get some small things out of them They won't be anything they'll go public they'll have a party they'll have an expensive wine dinner mostly men one woman They will invest in each other's things and it will continue. Thank care. The world isn't what it is It's what we make of it.
There is no faith Okay, there is no fate the best way to predict the future is to make it and let's make a future where we kick Robinhood and those two fucking little jerks And the nuts let's be that foot That's you and I it doesn't matter. I'm sorry. I'm gonna move like that I just like they're not going to stop because they don't think they're wrong and the kind of Attention that needs to be brought to bear on them is great But they unless there's some real pay paying for them. They're not doing anything anyway moving on let's take a listener male question presented by yappa Hey Scott and Cara this is Kate from New York City The reason episode with Casey Newton about his move from the verge to launching his own newsletter subscription on sub stack got me thinking about the future of podcasting We've seen a big shift in the monetization of content from an advertising model to subscription models But for the most part podcast as a content forum still rely on advertising in the future Can you see popular podcasters jumping ship from the big networks to work for themselves on a subscription model like what Casey knew ended with sub stack if so where do you see potential challenges and opportunities?
Thanks for your thoughts love the podcast Do you I think you should buy a decast for mattress is what we think you know they're not a tempo fit You need to buy a tempo, but listen, you're right. I don't I don't I don't know Scott You know you're just more tactful to your employers and I am look There's a gangster move going across big tech where they say look the fastest way to massively increase your holder value by tens of Not hundreds of billions of dollars is to make our core product more sticky or more likable So an e-commerce company is not that likable But transparent and media is really likable and so what they're doing is basically Hollywood media and storytelling is so likable So companies to make money selling handsets and by offering a hundred and twenty nine dollar a year service called prime If they can just make that a tiny bit more likable a tiny bit more sticky it makes those things much more Yeah, so valuable So a podcast it does five million dollars a year in revenue But kind of owns the space is likable that is worth a lot of money to Spotify Amazon Apple and there's probably two or three other bidders on that and so you're gonna see every it's pretty easy Go through every category and podcast take the top 10 look at the ones that are independent in the next 12 months They're all gonna get offers that are rational based on the economics of that podcast itself But we're about to see a ton of stuff go from that supported to behind the wall to try and drive There's gonna be Joe Rogan like deals across every There is free and most of it's not behind the wall. Spotify does have a subscription It's to it's the advantage Spotify subscriptions as as you most these things. What can you advantage?
How can you get people to sign more up for more and that's that would be one of the reasons? I want to get that I want to get this It's really an interesting issue because the advertising business can be very strong It absolutely can't be and for certain podcasts we do very well in advertising But you do think really hard about a subscription model or a model where you want to be independent really because you can like look It's Casey Casey talk about it. I think he's making his salary right now already, you know and the question is it's uncertain and it's all relies on you You know, so if you're not hooked up with someone and it's the same thing like what's going on with a lot of creators with Netflix and The economics of Hollywood is it's changing. Do you want to be paid up front or do you want this back-end deal?
Most people don't make money from back-end deals right most only a few people get the back-end that they talk about that's what they're arguing about But I'm like like three of you get the back end and the rest of you get nothing There was a really well-known producer who was like I've only made money twice on back-end right or so the question is you want How do you want to get paid and in which way and so a lot of people will be opting to be in a bigger company? The others will like I'm have done really well You know you think about you can see it in the journalism space a lot easier in the podcast space But you know Joe Rogan certainly the one who's pioneered this idea with the deal with with it Just not everybody can be Joe Rogan. That's the issue correct. I mean well, it's gonna be I mean There's a couple things one your ability to go behind a wall and develop You know a direct to consumer the dispersion of creativity where you bypass the traditional points of distribution if your own name establish a direct consumer model That's just a different means of getting paid the bigger shift here is it so for example You've already seen Warner's decision to go direct to consumer and launch on HBO Max at the same day already paid evidence I don't be sober Roku is finally come to agreement with HBO Max because they've decided all of a sudden the HBO Max app Is much more valuable to the in-row-coo consumer and what you know when they announced that they're taking Wonder Woman 1984 to the app the same day as theaters all of a sudden Roku saw God and gave in to Warner's demands and what you know last night They came to an agreement so this is already proving to be a smart gangster Gangster move but what you're gonna see is you're gonna see it's all about ratio if your NPS is greater much greater than your revenue as they are In podcasts, you know, not a good will the people feel towards their favorite podcasters relative to the revenue they generate Creates an arbitrage where an acquire can come in and leverage that goodwill and a monetize that will at an exponential rate Which means you're gonna see just go through every podcast.
It's independent that gets more than half a million downloads a month They're gonna start getting calls and getting offers Yeah, one of the things I think you have to also think about not just about doing things on your own is that what do you need these companies for? And that's really and what are you how are you valuable to them? I think that's the real issue is like sometimes like how do they actually help these big companies actually help you to spot if I Actually help you or just give you money and so I think that's that there's all kinds of calculate It's right There's all we're making everyone's making calculations like and figuring out how they want to live and how they want to do this and where it's going Right ultimately and where it's gonna go because you know as much as people worry about a glut of these shows and there's too many of them And isn't that there aren't too many good ones. They're just aren't as in all things There aren't too many ones that really stand out and they stand out because of the quality of the creativity of what they're doing Thank you.
Well done. Join us on sway Anyway, reminder anyway, we'll see just watch this space we say to you Thank you for the great question We really appreciate it Kate Kate from New York City And we hope you're doing well and you'll apparently gonna be having mayor Andrew Yang or Mary Yang as your All right reminder for the month of December We're partnering with yap to get more listener male questions go to ny mag.com Pivot to submit your questions for the pivot podcast. All right, Scott one more quick break. We'll be back for predictions So we are 250 years into this American experiment and I say it's going okay.
I give us like a C plus There is no perfect past but there is also no Exclusively negative past because humans are gonna human. That's what we do I think the story of America is the struggle of people who have not been included in the promise of America to expand those principles to include more people What's gonna determine the next 250 years of America? And how do we write a new social contract that can give us the democracy we deserve? Okay, so I'm just gonna be a jerk here because I'm a historian So we have to have a prologue explaining, you know, we the people Okay, you know, I just don't remember from schoolhouse rock we the people I don't even form more for you Yeah, I established this what is it?
Insured domestic tranquility, so you're talking about a foundational document So I'm building a document that will protect American democracy. That's this week on America actually This week on net worth and shell I'm joined by tanks and ultra the meme king with over 15 million followers across tanks good news Influencers in the wild and his personal account tank is breaking down what the meme economy really is how much a single sponsored post pays Why major brands are throwing serious money at jokes and how mean culture think preparation age starter packs and a perfectly timed screenshot is actually reshaping How we think about money and value get ready for a conversation that'll change the way you scroll make you rethink what going viral is really worth and Prove that sometimes the most serious money moves are wrapped in the silliest of jokes Listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube calm slash your rich BFF Okay, so we're back just for people who don't know it's not gonna be here for the next couple of weeks because he's Has the vacation again and Carol swisher keeps working as usual We're gonna be doing We're doing our big prediction show wrap up show with the help of some friends of pivot and then Scott's gonna go on vacation But to tide us over till then give us a prediction please and you have better come to some we're gonna have people asking people predictions But we need a lot from you so I want one right now and then I want you to have at least a dozen for next week I'm trying to come up with new ones. So I'm doing my prediction Livestream tonight, which will be yesterday if you've ever listened to this and I've had where we've had 9500 people sign up Enough about me Right Anyways Casey Casey So I wanted to come up with two predictions are my my deck where it's been a ton of time thinking about this stuff a couple things one I do think There's gonna be I'm hoping that some of the momentum against the tyranny of big tech is spilling over and people are taking a harder look And saying you know what we need to inoculate ourselves We need a vaccine against this virus that's plagued us and as the idolatry of innovators and specifically the menace That we are going to I think try and beat back before it gets too powerful as Robin Hood And I think that Goldman Sachs and I think the IPO markets and I think regulators are gonna put up some speed bumps I don't think that the Robin Hood IPO is gonna go as swimmingly or even happen as soon as as the investors would like to think so my Prediction is more to come on Robin Hood. I think we're the public is just getting educated as the damage to the Commonwealth and in my other prediction Which is more talking to people My my my pregnant paws is full of insight.
I saw that anyways you heard that you felt that yes, okay, so moving on I think that zoom could be the AOL of 2021 Some people think it's so well, but go ahead. Well, that's it as was a oil care Oh, right. No fair and then it ended up being one of the worst acquisitions in history when I look at zoom By the way, I love it. I love the product It's got a market capitalization of about 120 billion dollars Which was approximately the market capitalization of AOL at the peak and when I think of zoom and I feel like at the competitive set I look at Salesforce teams and slack I look at Microsoft and I look at teams And I think my guess is those companies when I introduce a video product Could be very very formidable competitors to zoom and I wonder if the vaccine and some of the biggest baddest most well resource enterprise wide Products showing up and taking on zoom I think zoom is gonna do do a couple things I think zoom is either gonna go out and merge with a gigantic telco or gigantic company Or I think it needs to start buying other things really fast.
Yeah, and I think looking back on 2021 whatever deal it does I wonder if zoom declines in value I think zoom could be our generation's AOL and that it is run by smart people I think they will decide to cash in on this market capitalization either going an acquisition binge or merge with another very large kind of old Mainline company. Yeah, they got to sell. I'm they got a sell or buy or merge. I'm not sure their moats love the product But I think they are playing, you know, they're a they're a fast growing They're a fast growing beluga whale.
That's all of a sudden attracted the attention of orcas the apex predators of the of the of the seas Yeah in a product that they can copy probably. Yeah, so not they don't have a magic sauce. I agree I think people use it and are used to it and that's the magic sauce is that people during this pandemic started? It's a better part by the way, it's better than Google stuff I always have kind of all kinds of glitchy problems with Google it's because Google is not focusing on it as much as zoom is Right, right.
It's their it's their opportunity to move and they should be moving I'm just doing they are because you sort of like shit slack of sold a lot earlier Maybe they would have got as much money, but they certainly would have been bigger Instagram sold early a lot of people feel he You know, he took a billion dollars It was worth many many many more billions than he took but that said it was it got bigger because of Facebook. I'm always in this case self sell and sell for as much as you can and And it's a big way and everyone can high five and to buy something that's gonna require a whole lot of executive execution that they Probably lack even where they can merge with that last in and have more of a suite of products But I actually think they're one that is best poised and the product that I think it doesn't get the kudos It deserves in terms of product quality because we don't like we don't like to like them because they're so big and dominant I think probably the best product in that space is teams. Yeah, I think fantastic. Yeah, having you some all Google's just blown it.
I've had so many glitchy problems with Google with Google meet. It's just crazy I'm like put some smart people on it soon. I'm sure the people are smart It's just not as good. It's just not as good.
It doesn't work as well with that with Apple in any case sell sell sell sell now sell now Like yesterday. I'm assuming they're in talks with you So two predictions Robin Hoods menace Robin Hood as a menace the menace that is Robin Hood is getting more warranted awareness And I think there's gonna be action against them on several different dimensions and two I think looking back and this is a prediction Look back in three years. I think zoom is shaping up to be the AOL of 2021 Alright excellent predictions Scott And you will have a whole lot more next week as a reminder We love listener male questions. We're trying something new go to NY mag.com Pivot to submit your question for the podcast the link is also in our show notes and it's your thing is tonight's we've already signed up But listen to Scott Galloway's prediction show that he's doing today the live one tonight tonight.
It's tonight. Correct. Yes, it's tonight Okay, so you can I do a zoom bomb you want to drop in I could if you'd like let me know Alright, you didn't invite me yet. I'm gonna send me slides in 45 minutes Oh, can I porn bomb them?
That is always welcome. Okay. All right. Anyway, Rita's out Scott Galloway today's episode was produced by Rebecca Sononis Ernie Ingerdott engineer this episode Eric Anderson is pivots executive producer Thanks also to Hannah Rosen and Drew burrows make sure you subscribe to the show on Apple podcast We like what you heard please recommend it to a friend isn't the time to address a menace early What could we do if we could go back in time and address Facebook?
This is that moment with Robin Hood talk to your lawmakers. Are you sure right now? If I could turn back done. That's where we should end have a good rest of the week have a great weekend