We can listen to a change, love you and friends. That I'm jamming people, you know, fucking friends, favorite episode. Well, it is called Finale and Friends for a Reason, my friends. Today is the end of an era, Jared.
Are you sad about this? You have about this? Are you, like, just beside yourself? Can you believe it that next week you won't have to talk?
No, I know. You don't get to it, which is it? Don't get to it. It's both, I guess, in a certain extent.
Don't get to. Don't have to. There's something about having to do something that makes you not want to do it. And then there's something about not being able to do something that makes you want to do it as well.
Ah, I got the itch at the podcast itch. But what you've had the itch for a while, it's kind of hard to stop the itch, I get that. It is. It's fun to talk to people about the things we love and our technology landscape has evolved and changed, I would say, dramatically over the arc of our relationship, I'd say, even, like, gosh, I think we first met 2013, 2012, say, like, in the 2012, and then 2013, you started contributing, and even then, like, the internet was so different.
It was. The interests were so different. I know it wasn't like we were besties right away. We barely knew each other.
So, like, it took a while for us to grow into the future. It took a little while. I was just logging news back then, news items, or whatever we called them back on the WordPress blog, and then after a little while, hopped on the pod. I just think we called it a blog.
I don't know what we called it. I don't know. I think you called me a changeloger. I remember changing that as well.
I want to be a changeloger. It was a term of endearment, obviously. And then we had, like, semantic debates. Like, well, are we the changeloggers, or are the people who are listening, changelog?
It doesn't matter. But, you know, these other things you bike shed when you're trying to figure stuff out. And things were different back then. 2012, I mean, mostly it was like, framework wars.
You know, the framework wars were cool. The act was out. We're gonna be as cool anymore. I think React had launched.
Pretty much. Early in your tenure. Yes. I want to say, what was the fork of node?
Iogs. That had happened, like, early, I would say, I can't remember when, probably 24. Shout out to Michael Rogers, R.I.P. Michael Rogers.
Yeah, I was just looking at some messages with Michael recently. And for those who don't know, Michael Rogers is actually, I think he was, he like helped, Isaac's, I believe, if I can recall correctly, like on the early versions of MPM. Like, he was critical and it's early, not that it gives MPM any credence this moment, because there's some charters there, but hey, it begins in great places, right? I think it was a lot of registry.
Yeah. But Michael Rogers was an early contributor, great friend over the years, you know, cancer this last year, and shortly passed away. Yeah, passed away. A different of ours.
Yeah, sure. And he was instrumental in the Iogs fork. That's when we met him, right? I remember that show.
And we all hit it off. That was a great episode. It kind of served a little bit of a purpose to get that story out and help, I think, to a certain extent, in a small way. IO and node get back together and they resolved it.
I mean, it was a hard fork slash re-merge in record time, probably for the history books. I wonder. There was the Murb Rails thing, but this was bigger than that, because it was more- It was appreciated. It did.
Yes. Murb Rails was probably like an early change vlog, 2009, I bet, 2009. Yeah, probably Penguin days. Yeah, yeah.
P-N-G-W-Y-N-N. Yeah, that was good for Iogs and node to kind of come back. I mean, it was brilliant. And I believe Scott, I can't recall his last name the moment, was the CEO at the time.
And we had him on the podcast discussing that change and really just it was about the proper steward of that up as a project. And I think at the time it was so new to folks. It was like, how do you actually do this in a way that represents the business? Now, Brian controls on the podcast.
He was CTO at the time. That happened. He could probably speak to some of the technical details behind there. Brian was in, let's do an insider on the node IO.
If you have one, obviously you probably do you have an insider on most things. That's right. Cool. From D-Trace to ZFS to Sun2.
Now, full rack, massive cloud compute that you own on principle on the oxide. Seriously, yeah. It has been a journey, man. It's been a journey, obviously.
I think it's bittersweet for me, too, because there's a lot about our relationship and a lot of podcast with you. I just truly cherish. And it's going to be tough. It's going to be different.
It's going to be tough to do the show without you. I look forward to it in positive ways, because you have to, but also in a lot of negative ways. I think that's one thing with the relationship that you truly cherish, that it's hard to walk away from and not do it with grace. And that's what I wanted to do with us, was just make sure that we walked away with grace and dignity in the process.
Because I love you, man. And I love for fun together. And while the show isn't ending, it's just challenging. It's the end of a chapter and the start of a new one.
That's right. I'm sure it'll continue to be great. And it is bittersweet. I mean, change is part of our name, check log.
Change log. It's the hardest thing to like, only say half of, right? Yes. Like some range you can sort of like give them like a nickname in a way.
It's kind of hard to nickname change log. Yeah. Is there a change or a tag log? That's right.
And then you've got any case it or snake case it or hyphen case it. Don't get me started, buddy. Gap in between change and log. Is that our probably our biggest shared pet peeve of all time?
Is the uppercase L on a change log? Every time I see them, they'll know us. It's a tell, it's a smell, it's a tell. You don't understand how pedantic we are about such things.
And you know this, it's a lowercase L guys. Come on. I think this with a detailed journey, you know this like you have to sweat that kind of detail. Like you have to be that level pedantic to deliver quality at a clip that we have for so long.
You have to have that level of care and detail. You have to. Right on. And if you don't, it shows.
I mean, it's not that you can't do it. It's just it's going to show. It's going to show. Yeah.
Yeah, if you care, then you'll care, you know, and we certainly care. And that was what makes this hard. Of course, it's going to be, it's going to be good and bad. It's bittersweet, as you said.
I'm excited for a new chapter. I don't know what comes next for me. I know in the short term, a little bit of a break will be nice from everything. I'm planting a little tree farm.
So getting my hands in the dirt, you know, kind of doing some of that analog stuff I've been talking about recently. Back to the dirt. Back to the dirt. Oh, that's a good name too.
You know, I came from dirt and going back to the dirt, called me Joe Dirt. Joe Dirt. Yeah, man. But we don't need to have our own it for too long.
There's big news that surprised me. I was the speaker of the crack. Since you mentioned cracks, or I think we mentioned cracks. Somebody mentioned cracks.
My second was this, was I think the rust that the rust was cracking in a positive way, Lady Bird cracked. Yeah. And said, you know what? Swift is actually not what we need.
Even after they careful evaluation early on, they cracked. They said, you know what, rust is actually better. And I think the bigger, more unique crack here, which is, I kind of expected in this world was the leveraging of AI to get there, which I thought was quite, I don't know, I guess at some point, it's going to be everywhere. And it's going to be expected and anticipated that AI is involved in everybody's day-to-day coding adventures.
You know, it's not surprising, but nice to see the cracks and came back to the good land, which is rust. Which is rust. So a little bit of context here, when Andreas clean, and Chris Wantseroth, who went to difficult name this way quickly, were on our pond probably last summer, maybe two summers ago. I don't know exactly what it was, but it's when they announced the foundation around labor and all the stuff they were doing with the money raise and stuff, or not money raise.
What do you say, Chris donating? Just speaking plainly, that will deal. We asked them about that. And at the time, Andreas said, we're going Swift.
Like, labor is written in C++, but they're going to start importing certain portions of it over to Swift. And we released that as a short clip of a longer conversation. And it's become quite a popular YouTube video where people like to go there and argue about whether or not that was right and why Rust is better and why Swift is better. And why didn't they go with go?
I don't know. There's all kinds of comments on that particular video. And so I was very surprised to see this, because Andreas didn't really pull any punches and saying, not that he dislikes rust, but that he didn't think it was a good fit for a browser, because of how object oriented the DOM is and how browsers work, take his word for it not mine, and how that rust doesn't really have the facilities he thinks that he would want in order to do that. And he still hasn't really changed on that.
He actually mentions it in his blog post about Ladybird adopting rust. He still thinks that, but it's just a pragmatic choice. Rust has the ecosystem. Rust has the momentum.
Rust has a lot of other good things about it. Security, of course, for browsers imperative. And it's so important to a Ladybird team that it was the pragmatic choice. And that's a curveball.
I was just like, didn't see that one coming up. Yeah. I think the way they proved to themselves was less of a curveball when you get to the details. I think when you look at the details, they start with lib.js.
That's Ladybird's JavaScript engine. It describes it quite well in terms of what it is. But it's got a great, it's got extensive test coverage per Andreas, which I think makes it a good starting point because if you've got a great test, it's pretty easy for, I would say NLM to say, OK, here's a bunch of tests to prove all the things. Let's just use that as a great way to get to the other side here.
One thing you pointed out was the result was around 25,000 lines of rust. The entire port took around two weeks. We had noted that the same work would have taken him about multiple months to do by hand, which is kind of obvious to anybody who's been using AI coding or agent to coding or agent. It's pretty obvious what you can do in a day or two or a week or two with a tool like that.
The 25,000 lines of rust, the entire port took around two weeks and the same work would have taken multiple months to do by hand. But the fact they start with a great project from the inside, like Lib.js with pre-testing, that is what I think gives you confidence. OK, we've got a great code base with great test coverage. That's a great start to pull in this transition.
Yes. And it's safe to call Andre as a gray beard. I know he has a beard. I don't think he's necessarily gray.
The guy's not around. And his title of this post was Ladybird Adopt for us with help from AI. And when I log this in and change all news from Monday, I almost pulled that part out because I searched for the whole thing with AI. And I was like, well, where is the AI?
I didn't get to that Lib.js part fast enough. He actually specifically names cloud code and codecs for the translation. I was looking for AI, and I thought, was he just linkbaiting? Is this linkbaiting with the help from AI?
Because he wanted to get more attention. As if he needs help with Ladybird, it's already a popular project. And that means that I actually did find the portion. I was like, OK, this is legit.
It makes sense coming from him. But the thing produced a lot of what he calls C++ style rust, which is totally fine for what they've done so far. And it was just such a very good use of these tools, especially in the hands of an expert, to see how it made that, which is intimidating. If not, I wouldn't call it impossible for him.
He certainly could have gotten it done. But just an intimidating project, so much more approachable. And that's really, I think, the unlock for people of all skills, but even for somebody who could sit down and hand code every single line. And does a lot of that work and continues to and takes pride in his craft and all these things.
It's like, there's huge unlocks here. And that got me thinking about rust in general. Maybe it's benefit. I know you've been picking some up a little bit with the help of Claude and other tools and whatever it is.
Rust's biggest drawback is its complexity, mental overhead. It's hard to learn. Let me just say that. It's very terse.
Yes. It requires a lot. The compiler pisses you off. Exactly.
The code sucks. Yeah, all the things. You know, you know, well aware. Even if you put into prod, you know your issues.
That's the thing. Right. But you better help perform at compile time. Yes, compile time bugs, better than runtime bugs, as all of our static friends will tell us, still a fan of some dynamic languages, but I totally get it.
Ruby. Yeah, I'm just going to Ruby. I'm going to Ruby, wait a minute. I was right.
Ruby before I started changing login, I'm going to be writing Ruby after I leave changing login. Ruby for life. That's right. It's so beautiful.
So amazing. Yes, it looks or two. So big fans of both of those. But I'm thinking that this is such a win for language like rust to get mass adoption, because now we have tools that help us over all of those difficult parts, you know?
Like, eventually, I think if you stick with it, even if you're not hand coding, like you're code reviewing, you are instructing, you are testing, et cetera, I think you learn it over time. But I think you learn it without any of the, like, show stoppers that certain people of stubbornness make it through, but a lot of us just throw up our hands and say, like, this language is not for me. So I think it really lowers the barrier to rust. And I think makes rust way more approachable to way more people.
What do you think? That should be, honestly, that should be. I think after using it, there's obviously in any language reports, right? And there's tradeoffs.
But I think largely the safety round rust is just bar none. It's efficiency. The way it handles memory is amazing. You know, I'm not the super rust nurse.
I can't go into it. I'm not the kind of person here to go deep into it. But the memory efficiency with rust is just the one that would go is you've got the garbage collector, you know? So if you have an interface or even like a network interface kind of thing that requires zero latency or very, very minimized latency, almost zero, then rust is your choice over go because go will introduce those steps, those stops with the garbage collector.
And they're small, but if the byte matters, then the byte matters. It could be a database, for example. That's a challenge. One thing he says, though, is if you, I'm in the blog here, he said, if you look at the code, you'll notice it has a strong quote translated from C++ and quote vibe, that's because it is translated from C++.
And so I wonder, you know, if that's a bad thing for the long term code base, let's just like spit ball this a little bit. While there was a test coverage, while there was, you know, an existing code base, existing test coverage, why translate from C++ versus new implementation? And I know that he's trying to solve a problem. He's trying to prove the concept probably.
But if rust truly is, and it seems like they're going to keep writing C++ alongside of rust is what he mentions on the post. So it's not like a straight cutoff. Like this is not the winner. They're still in like an interrupt kind of scenario where they're doing both boundaries.
But just thinking about it, like why not? What would have been the process, do you think, to not translate, but rewrite it? Take feature for feature. How could you not translate it versus just say, here's this, examine this code base, we're not translating it.
Here's the code bit, here's the test coverage. Here's all the things that's testing for, which can be intent based, which is what you hear a lot, or what you will hear a lot in this new version, which is like specs, intent, you know, document driven, all those are synonymous with, I understand what intent it is. I understand what the user experience should be, and so when I'm trying to get to, here's where I'm at. My intent is x, which is what he could have done here.
What do you think about an intent driven versus, I guess, ported, like this way, where it was translated from C++? Why not inspired by versus translated? That's a really good question. I think that he could answer it better than I could, but what I would surmise is kind of like when we talk about, you know, what's going to change here around the change log, and the answer is like as little as possible, you know, like I won't be here, but like everything else is going to be pretty much try to stay the same because you don't want, when you have a big change, you don't want to have a big radical change necessarily.
And I think in this case, when you have a big change being introduced into a codebase, which is like, here comes a new language, and you're proving that out and you're taking steps in that direction, it's like, let's do as little as we can, but still make progress, and so as little changes possible, you're way more likely to get it replaced when you can give the tools the existing code and the tests, and say, let's not rethink the architecture and everything. Let's just, you know, here's our scaffold, let's pull out this part and let's put in that part and make sure that the building still stands, and let's call that a win, and that will help us decide if this is a direction that we want to go. And yeah, we're going to have some C++ looking rust code at the end of the day, but we can slowly swap it out as we do rethink and rewrite, you know, subsections, just like, you're going to make a little tweaks here and there, you know, to change our news as you go out making it yours. And so like, I think that's probably the reason, probably we just got them way faster that way too, because, you know, give claud and codecs as much as they can have, and they're going to crank way faster than having the, I mean, I guess that's an assumption, maybe they won't, what do you think?
But they, well, they do better with existing code than with none. You know, I don't know, I think I would honestly, because the the cost is near zero or as close as it's ever been to try, I would say, I would try, honestly, because a fresh new code base, and I want to say it might be something where, and I'm not sure how much experience with rust and as I think, as he becomes more confident, the one thing that rust does for you is it gives you confidence in what you're delivering because of the way it compiles because of the way that you get past that compile time, it gives you a lot more confidence in the code you've actually written, because you squash so many possible bugs in the future with that. I think a future endeavor of his might be to literally rewrite from scratch with rust. But you know, I think that would only come if they give it a true, this is the only language we use, this is the way forward, et cetera.
But that's not what they're doing. I think that I would, because the cost is near zero try, because there's a lot more effort there. But friends, I'm here with my good friend, Chris Kelly over at Augment code. Chris, I'm a fan.
I use Augie on the daily. It's one of my daily drivers. I use cloud code. I use augment Augie.
And I also use encode and others. But Augie, I keep going back to it. And here's where I'm at. I feel like not enough of our audience knows about augment code, not enough about Augie, the CLI.
It's amazing. I love it. What can you share? Yeah, we often say augment is the best coding assistant you've never heard of.
And that's both frustrating as to some that works there. And it's like very proud of the work we've done. But also like inspiring, like we want to go and sort of punch above our weight, we just like we aren't anthropic and we aren't open AI. And so the quality of the product itself, you know, with our context engine, once you do touch it, people are like, just blown away by that.
And so like that keeps you going every day. So not to bear the lead here, but this is a paid spot. You are sponsoring the show to get this awareness. Now, at the same time, we're selective.
And I love to use your tool. But there is in the world. So a lot of developers look at the space and say, okay, well, how long can this work? How long is this sustainable in the case of cursor or windsurf?
Or you pick the name and you think discount tokens help me ship a lens for audience. I think it's a lot of awareness, right? Like, cursor got a lot of publicity early on for like fast revenue growth, which well deserved. I think, you know, frankly, some of the media got this gets the story wrong.
And that like, if I gave you a dollar 50 for every dollar you sent me, I'd be the fastest growing startup in the in the Valley. And so when you're selling discounted tokens, yes, of course, you're gonna go very fast. But all that money plus more goes to the model providers. So I think the real story is the story of anthropic and you know, being an API provider, I think the market is just moved so fast.
And there's so many pieces of competition out there that it's just hard to get noticed. So friends, I love augment code and I love using Augie. I highly recommend you use it. I love using Augie.
I can hand Augie a well-defined specification, a well-defined PEP as I call them in my world and agent flow and it executes flawlessly. So the cool thing about Augie that I love most really is that context engine and I can hand it a task and it is churn away on my well-defined plan and just never bother me and accomplish the mission. It is so cool, leveraging the latest models, the context engine and all the fun things behind the scenes in that awesome CLI. So yes, go try it out augment code dot com right in the top there is a CLI icon, a terminal icon, click that, install it and change your world.
It's gonna be awesome, augment code dot com. If you're thinking about contributing or saying, you know what, I want to try this. I want to port some of this code, not invited. Okay, don't get sad.
Not invited. It says, it says, we want to be delivered about which parts are getting ported in which order. So porting is managed by the core team. Please coordinate essentially.
Don't do it. And wait your time if it's not something that can't merge. They're phrasing that last sentence there. But you know, I think if you're interested in this port or if you're at least tantalized by the effects of Rust and you're seeing it daily in your news feed, and in this case, I saw three times we haven't covered all three yet.
Then I think go check out the code base and watch them in action and see what's happening. What does it take to go from C++ to Rust and what's happening behind the scenes? And I'm sure on their YouTube, they'll publish more content. But I, I'd like to see more of this because Rust is the language in that space of the future.
Just this. You heard here first, he's calling us this. Why? I'm just following a lead in the stream.
Yeah, man. Just seeing what happens and just saying it out loud. No, I don't disagree with you. It's overwhelming.
It's adoption and it's benefits. And I think he did. I mean, I think C++ will be in this code base for years. If not in perpetuity, I don't think they're going to like ever completely crush it.
And I think he said that even on the show, it's like, yes, this is more like a direction will be parts that we exchange other parts that might even make more sense and just leave alone. My answer back to your why not just try, you know, since the cost is zero, the only answer I have for that is like, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Like there's other stuff that you can be working on. Obviously, you can get multiple, multiple agents going.
But you know, the price of agents is not nothing. And it's probably, I don't know, it's gonna go up is gonna go down. It feels like so many. There's a lot of blood and water right now between the agents at large, you know, right?
There's this whole like cloud code subscription thing with open, open code. I don't know if you've been tracking that, but the way that yeah, so in Tropic, I think I had an amazing idea with cloud code subscription, which I loved it. Like as soon as Jose added ACP as I was called agent client protocol, as soon as I could use my cloud code subscription inside TIGWAV, I was ready to dive in. Whereas if I had to go out and get a separate source of funding and get an API keys and like spend API tokens, that was that as that started it.
And I think that TIGWAV is using it in order to use cloud code from inside TIGWAV versus a cloud API token. And I can piggyback that on top of my already existing monthly fixed limit. As a guy who likes to know what he spent every month, I like that, like it just makes it easy to adopt her. Same thing with like these new open cloths, file tools, if we can just plug in our codecs already paying whatever, open AI, we're already paying anthropic, just plug them in.
And then it gets rate limited as I have tokens available per month. It's a fixed cost. I feel good about that. Well, anthropic does not feel good about that.
So they've been changing kind of the rules around your cloud code subscription and saying that you can't use it for their party tools. You have to use API tokens. And this has a lot of people, not too happy. I'm I'm one of them, but I also totally understand it because I mean, they got to get they got to make some money, right?
They got these huge valuations, they got to have revenue, right? Yeah, when you look at the landscape, this is this at least where my lens is at, and this is Google has money to burn. And they can they can operate at zero margin and profit for a long time. Totally.
They got to catch that which is different precisely. And so then you have anthropic, large investment, large capital raised massive valuation. You see the big number, but the spend is so astronomical. And then you couple that with opening out the same, right?
The same large investment. Yeah. And you got two key players that can't can't lose, right? That's the game of business.
Like don't lose the object, right? Don't lose and play for as long as you can't right? Play forever. But when you have Google, and they're doing well, they're doing quite well, they're very impressive.
They're I mean, just a, they're actually surprising me. I didn't think they would, but they are. But when you have this kind of scenario where you've got such massive capital raised, and you've got Google who can essentially operate at no profit for as long as they have to, they can believe them dry to some degree. So they have to win, they have to profit.
So when you look at this landscape, y'all, it's not by surprise that anthropic and opening are going for ways to make money. And Google's given away, no book allowed, given away, given away things in a lot of ways. Because they they're the ones with the most to lose, you know, these other folks are essentially knew that open eyes, the incumbent when it comes to the first large language model that was largely usable by mass. Right.
But Google's catching up and they have the dollars to fund catching up any of the dollars to lose catching up and flatten the market. And so you've got those worlds and you can expect this. Now, is it good business for open code? No, I think our friends over there, you know, that's not cool to do that.
I don't know what that means. There's also this news about which is not any of our notes, but this news of what is it called distilling, the open models distilling from, you know, a mass infiltration into anthropic and cloud and what not like a massive amount. This is where I'm plotting this. I'm not trying to explain that.
What that means? I didn't prepare for that. I know short version. I think I know what it means, but I'm not totally up to it, which is that and this is anthropic is saying that there are organizations abroad.
I'll just leave it that big that have yes, basically, creating tons of accounts and prompting Claude and extracting a whole bunch of stuff in order to train their models on the results. And that's what you mean by distilling, I think, like taking the results and turning them into a new model. And they're mad about it, which I understand where they are. Am I saying it right?
Is this what you're talking about? Yes. Okay, so let's see, I grot that really fast because honestly, grot is the best for real time news. Yeah.
Let's see if they can actually help me out here. So I'm gonna paraphrase a little bit about the biggest recent story involving anthropic. This is me reading directly from grot's response. So forgive me if there's any corrections or lack of correctness, the biggest story involving anthropic coming behind Claude code, Claudia models, and distillation broke just yesterday, which was February 23rd.
This is February 24th, 2026. We record anthropic publicly accused three major Chinese AI companies deep seek moonshot AI and min-max or sorry, min-max of running large scale coordinated distillation attacks on Claude to steel slash improve their models. There you go. Now the world will say our fellow friends out there on Twitter slash X and other places will will plot this.
You know, I'm just not, I'm just not sure I want to plot anything in this tumultuous world where where there's massive downness, I would say, in a where we want sort of massive upness. Okay, I'm not sure I want to plot this. I'm sort of in the middle there, because they would say that well, anthropic did the same thing to other things to get to where they're at, right? You know, how did their models get trained in the first place, et cetera, and I get that argument.
But that gene is on the bottle. And in applauding somebody's downfall, I suppose, because of somebody else's upfall, especially in a coordinated distillation attack. I mean, would you would you categorize it as an attack? I suppose so they are categorizing the tech, I guess, depends on who you are.
I think they said like there was 12 million, I saw this post from 24,000 fake fraudulent accounts, if this is correct, from their use of the slurp down results generated over 16 million exchanges, which are conversations slash product of cloud. Yeah, so like, are they, I mean, are they paying if they're paying? And it's like, I'm sure it's against against the terms and they could do their accounts. I don't know, it's a tough one.
I think that obviously the existing players who have trained their models on the world's information, including proprietary content and the work of artists and the work of photographers and just et cetera, et cetera, and work of coders, in the case of some of these models trained on publicly available code, but not literally license code, not merely literally license code. And so there's not been on GPL code, for instance, which we know has happened. I feel like they there's recourse for them in United States, at least these are all American companies in the case of Microsoft, open AI, anthropic and Google, they're all can be adjudicated in the court of law. And, you know, if there's any justice in our court system, which sometimes you get it, sometimes you don't.
I think that will play out like, and there has been results based on scanning books, buying books, et cetera. But when it comes to the world stage, what do you do? And it's coming from a different country or different jurisdiction. I don't know.
Yeah, so it's a tough one. It's murky. Yeah, summarize at the bottom, it says in short distillation, self is normal tech. I mean, if you look at just a sort of short engine, I believe the way that Airbnb became successful initially was because they leveraged off the non existent web based scraping API against Craigslist.
They would find things that could be post I mean, this is an history book. So this is that's a version of distillation. It's kind of like one one person's scrappy startup is like another person's attack, you know, yeah, because like, well, we're just trying to figure it out and we need a data and so we scrape some data and who hasn't gone out and just scraped some websites for their own use. I mean, how do yeah, I mean, 100%.
You got to do it with taste. Obviously, terms of service is a real thing. Yes. And that's what they say here is like doing it at massive scale against the competitors API in violation of TOS service, especially across borders.
This is what anthropic is calling out as a major problem right now. I understand that I guess it's who's got time to read those terms of service. Okay, right? We need the one person.
I just have your agent click on it. Okay, it's right. You need to just spin up an agent column, you know, clicker, clicker bot, agree bot and have it do it for you now. Yes.
Did you actually, are you at fault then? If you didn't actually click that acceptance, something else clicks it for you. I will tell. It's a weird world as things get increasingly agentic and increasingly like the snake eating its own tail.
You know, I think we'll start to see it unravel even more. I don't know. Well, that was not at all in our list of things to talk about today. Well, we said it happens.
Yes. Let's quickly mention two things more about Rust and move on to a couple other topics. I want to mention Ubuntu is also using Rust. We're not going to go into detail there, but there's a lot of cool things happening there.
Okay. I think Rust has a recent survey out that I don't have notes on, but I want to mention there's a new survey for it. We'll put in a show notes and then obviously, there is some change in terms of compilers, registries, tooling for Python, JavaScript, et cetera. Yes.
It's now being written in Rust. And one of the most recent was OXC's JavaScript oxidation compiler, which is a collection of high performance JavaScript tools written in Rust. Okay, let's just put two, maybe a phrase together. I was saying two words together.
High performance, I guess, is one words of hyphenated, right? High performance and written Rust. Those two phrases will forever. Those, those, that's a way to describe the next project you do in Rust.
If it is a tool for X written in Rust, it's going to be high performance written in Rust. And if you just wrote it recently, then it's modern. So put it on there. True.
Okay. Now, I mean, that, that dog hunts, you're selling, you're selling right there. So they wrote it. I mean, we're using the same verbiage that actual deal with with UV and others, like the rust is high performance, rust is fast, rust is memory efficient.
And just one thing on C++, the one issue with C++ is how you have to manage memory in your mind as you're designing and writing the code. And now if you're using AI, then you're not writing much of the code to write it, but you still have to manage the memory manually, whereas Rust is a for you. So that's how what makes it high performance is the developer can let go of that concern because the compiler is just that smart. That was the design of us all along.
I was with the, they tried to do writing it, but I want to mention that quickly on their front. You want to touch on that at all before we high-tell. Yeah, totally. So first of all, this is not from Astral, even though it's, it sounds like it should be what you know, it is from is from void zero, which is Avenue startup, Avenue of view and beat fame.
And so he has his bona fides. And so this is from people who know what they're doing. Oh, XC dot r s. And so it's the foundation of modern JavaScript tooling.
And so what is it? Oh, excellent. There's a linter. So again, following a little bit in Astral footsteps there, they started with rough, which was their linter, I believe.
And then there's OX font as the gopher's like to call it. Oh, X format. But in in go land, they always like to say from front. Yeah, from FMT.
So there's either OX font or ox font, you know, you decide, which is a prettier, compatible formatter. And then they have a parser, which of course, I think these other things are probably built on and a transformer and a resolver and a minifier. So it's a bunch of sub projects with a free and open source. So this is cool.
This is cool. How in the world do you build such amazing things on free and open sources? It is a conundrum in this new world. Wow.
I'm so happy about it. But in the case of void zero and C, they're calling this OXC. Yeah, OXC built on sponsorships. There's some silver sponsors on the website, bronze sponsors and individual backers.
And so, you know, they're going straight up sponsorship style. And hopefully that works for them. Yeah. Oh, excellent.
Look at this domain, Jerry. We didn't even mention the domain yet. Dot R S. Rust.
Rust. Right. That's the center for Rust. That's a fine domain right there.
That's a nice one. Oh, XC dot rust slash sponsor. If you are interested, they have details on why the sponsor current sponsors are which is seems to be plentiful from individual backers to corporate sponsors. One of our recent sponsor hours.
So good as to them is Miro. Miro actually, I should say they told me to say that's hero. I can't say the word M. I don't think Miro.
It is same. Miro. But it is actually Miro. Miro.
Like hero. Just so you all know. Yeah. So when you think Miro, think Miro like hero.
Okay. There you go. Just to be clear, not sponsor. Right.
And so that's just baked into my message brought to you by our desire to say things correctly. That's right. That's right. Let's go on Prem.
Let's go self hosted. I think yeah. I don't know what you're feeling this year. But I feel like the future this year, this last year was the was the crack in the earth to say on Prem is where it's at.
I think as we drive more of our own internal tooling as we start building more of our own sass replacements, let's just say. Yeah. You know, you're going to desire to self host and now is the best time ever to get into home lab if you're not into that at all. And I think the future is self hosted slash on Prem.
And I'm excited about that. I'm so excited about that as you can probably tell. Well, I have a little secret. I'm happy to reveal which is that I bought a Mac mini.
I bought a Mac mini. Wow. Yeah. Is it for our friend open claw?
Well, it's to a certain extent. I've just been building more stuff. You know, like, it's just living in a world where you can go from idea to something working in minutes. It's just hard not to just build kind of everything you think of but just more things.
And you know, I just built stuff here on my laptop and maybe I wouldn't source it. Maybe I don't you know, it runs here. Fine. I had a billing stuff that runs on schedules and I'm just like, you know, my laptop closes.
It's not a server. It's not a server. This is work computer, you know, that moves places. And I don't have all I have the only other computer I have in my entire house besides laptops for my wife and kids is a Raspberry Pi that's in the basement.
It's not plugged in. Hmm. And you know, I just write Raspberry Pi three. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. And totally what you're doing. Well, then I thought it's just time for some new hardware.
And you know, everyone's buying Mac minis. I got caught up and I told you about my friend that emailed me after or texted me after the news about open clock. He was like, I just bought a Mac mini. And I'm just like, you know what, I'm just gonna buy one for you.
I actually bought the exact specs that you said you would buy. I was like, let me talk about it. Yeah. The second tier, the top tier.
It's the top tier. Ooh, it's the pro. Yeah. I did not go full RAM because I'm not going to run much local.
I don't know. I didn't want to spend. I was going to random. I was the other problem.
I wanted to play with it. And when you go more RAM, it kicks it back like three weeks to ship. Oh, yes. And I'm like, yeah, I mean, if I'm having tons of fun, I don't know if I'll buy another one or something and give this one.
You can bolt on storage. You can't bolt on RAM. Yeah. And you can bolt on storage at Thunderbolt five, I believe in the Mac mini.
I could be wrong. It'd be a thunder before. So you've got that full bandwidth. Anyway, so I'm going on for my point.
I'm going on for whatever it is. I have nothing to run, but I've been having some fun. And I do I did try out nano claw. I haven't set up open claw, but I do want to know this weird world all these people are living in and try it for myself.
Zero claw, actually, might be the one I set up first because that's really fast and way less resource heavy. I don't know. But I'm excited to just move some stuff off my laptop over to there and put it on a scheduler. That got me thinking like, you know, Max built in scheduler is launch D, which really doesn't have a good interface, you know, and they just didn't in the shower today.
I was like, I should just build a GUI for it and be sweet, you know, like I could do that in an afternoon with me and my friends. And then there'll be like a cool launch D GUI. Otherwise, you can use cron, but it's a little bit different on Mac and it's weird, you know? So yeah, I'm, I'm all about it, I guess.
We'll see. I'd like to see that launch D GUI. That's actually, that's cool. That's cool.
Like, I got stuck on a name. I couldn't think of a good name. That's why I didn't build it. You know, you got to have a good name first, and then you build the thing.
But I don't know. Yeah, I know. I can do that a little bit. Well, friends today's podcast is brought to you by friends over at Squarespace.
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Okay, because that's what the world needs is on prem and self hosted is the way of the future. The console there and it's still great. But I think I just miss, you know, like a lot of folks touching things like rack and server, like I've got off camera, you can't see it here. I've got one motherboard there, one motherboard there, a case there, an SSD NVMe over there, a cooler right there.
Yes, I'm work to do and lack of time and lack of time. But I got things like two other boards, two CPUs, a couple things to build. And I'm just doing that kind of stuff. I love building as you already know.
Yeah. But I say we'll miss it as if I miss it. But I don't actually miss it. I miss it in terms of time.
I'm paraphrasing and mentioning this post on Reddit, this fellow own general 6 7 5 5 1 day ago. And I have the only one who genuinely prefers on prem over the cloud. Now Jared, we use fly. We love fly or friends with render or friends with other folks as well.
I think there's I'm not saying those folks are bad by any means. But I think when you're only answering this is what own general 6 7 5 5 is alluding to. And I'm not going to say this whole entire phrase, all the all the details in his Reddit post on our DevOps. But it's this fact that when you go into a new job, you go into a new position, you go into a new scenario, you're stacking new infrastructure, it's largely APIs and services or point error kind of piecing together.
And as you know, the goos are dying and seal eyes are winning in this new world. And you have to navigate all these settings. We've just did this with keys. You know, yes, I couldn't see the keys that I mean, it's okay, what's up with that?
You know, they're called account keys. Right. Why can I not see the account keys? You create your cloud cloud flare.
Does that make any sense cloud flare? That doesn't make any sense. I mean, like the fact that I couldn't seem you could look at the same screen and we're just like talking about the same credentials even like the same permissions, the same administrative level permissions made no sense. Okay, no sense.
And so when you're in that world, you have to like, okay, sure, you have to have keys in on prem, you have to have SSH keys and permissions and things like that, user accounts and you got goods, you got all sorts of things, you ID stuff. Sure, sure, you have those issues. But that's you can control on prem by just SSHing in and Linuxing the way Linux works, you know, when you miss this world, you have to build infrastructure on the cloud only, it just you just get to miss it. So I'll say get to miss that kind of scenario, your only choice to build your next big thing is cloud, I say no, it's like, well, self host it first.
In fact, tail scale funnel, your way to success. What's that? Well, it's like a tunnel, but it's a funnel. Okay, so you can take something, let's say you got something running locally on a port, let's say port 8080, you can tail scale serve and tail scale funnel that thing into essentially punching a hole, which actually doesn't punch a hole through the firewall because it's a mesh network, and enable connectivity from the outside in and the inside out, for example.
And so you can actually run a service on your Mac, you've got right or on your ain't got time to build it yet, but I'm gonna soon kind of thing. Okay, I got things proximoxes over the don't to worry, proximoxes home and along and doing well, my gosh, I've ever had more and proximoxes in my entire life. But you can use it there and build there and just tail scale your way to success. Okay, look into it.
The next episode actually next week's episode, that's tomorrow, tomorrow's episode soon, very soon, very soon, it's going like your feed, it's in there, it's very soon, if not, it's coming very soon, is talking about identity and tail scale. What I didn't realize so much so when I did this podcast, it's like teaser for is how embedded identity is in tail scales networking. So you learn to think about tail scale is this glorified VPN. And it is that, but think of it like everywhere you go in the network, if you're authenticated, you are you, you got things like OIDC, and things like OIDC connectors and being able to just already be logged in to trueness or already logged into proximox or pick your internal service that can support OIDC because your tail scale network, your tail net, when you go about it, you are you and so you are you as your identity as well.
I think it's super, super cool. On premise of the way, that's all. Tyler funnel, I like it. Tunnel and if you guys are not tunnel, we did mention that plot, I was like, you know, I thought it was a misspelling because tunnel makes more sense.
But I think Cloudflare D has tunnel while tail scale has fallen on. I was going to say, I'll do it is tail scale. So here's like what end rock was always doing for us back in the day, right? Which is like, open up.
Yeah. Yeah. So does that require some sort of version of it? Yeah, I think that's part of you to port open on your firewall, whereas tail scale is not okay.
I did not know that. Yeah, there's no port opening whatsoever with tail scale. And not an ad, but they are sponsoring us very soon. And you know, I love them.
You can go get a free count today. They're free forever. That's how they are. And so if you're a homelabber, or somebody ascends with 100 or less devices, you're going to have one basically free forever.
So you can hold up your heart's content to 100. And they're happy to have you. Happy to have you. All right, you should use a quick side quest here.
Yeah. In what calendar year do you suppose you add them to go? Yeah, we're gonna hit that you're gonna have 101 devices on your tail. Like when are you gonna when are you personally gonna hit that?
We're talking like, you're getting close. We're talking like a decade never. What do you think? I'll be logging real quick to find some proliferating on our networks, you know, sometimes before you know it, but doesn't mean we're necessarily running a tail scale on them.
Yeah, tell us what you got. What are you working with? Let me tell you how many are here? 54.
Oh, and that's why there's no cleanup. Okay, you can probably get that down another 40. Yeah. Let's see.
I haven't announced it yet. And I'm not sure when I'll actually open source it, but I'm building a self hosted GitHub runner, because I was just tired of how slow get runners are. And it's called you run that. Yeah, they do.