Finale & Friends (Friends)

We can listen to a shame, clog your friends. That I'm jamming people, you know, clog your friends. Favorite episode? Well, it is called Finale and Friends for a Reason, my friends.

Today is the end of an era, Jared. Are you sad about this? You have about this? Are you just beside just looking?

You believe it that next week you won't have to talk? I know. You don't get to it, which is it? Don't get to it.

It's both, I guess, in a certain extent. Don't get to. Don't have to. There's something about having to do something that makes you not want to do it.

And then there's something about not being able to do something that makes you want to do it as well. I got the itch at the podcast itch. But what you had the itch for a while is going to hard to stop. I get that.

It is. It's fun to talk to people about the things we love and our technology. Landscape has evolved and changed, I would say, dramatically over the arc of our relationship. I'd say even like, gosh, I think we first met 2013, 2012, say like, in 2012.

And then 2013, you started contributing. And even then, like the internet was so different. It was. The interests were so different.

I know it wasn't like we were besties right away. We barely knew each other. So I could go wild for us to grow and to the people. It would take a little while.

I was just logging news back then, news items or whatever we called them back on the WordPress blog. And then after a little while, hopped on the pod. I think we called it a blog. I don't know.

I think you called me a changelogger. I remember changing that. I want to be a changelogger. It was a term of endearment, obviously.

And then we had like semantic debates like, well, are we the changeloggers or are the people who are listening, changelog? It doesn't matter. But these other things you've like shed when you're trying to figure stuff out. And things were different back then.

2012, I mean, mostly it was like framework wars. You know, the framework wars were cool. React was out. We're going to be on reusing as cool anymore.

I think React had launched. Pretty much. Early in your tenure. Yes.

I want to say, what was the fork of node? Iogs that had happened. Like early, I would say I can't remember when I was trying to Michael Rogers. RIP Michael Rogers.

Yeah, I was just looking at some messages with Michael recently. And for those who don't know, Michael Rogers is actually, I think he was he like helped Isaac's, I believe, if I can recall correctly, like on the early versions of MPM. Like he was critical and it's early, not that it gives MPM and it's this moment because there's some chairs there. But hey, it begins in great places, right?

Yeah. But Michael Rogers was an early contributor, great friend over the years. Can't help cancer this last year and shortly passed away. Yeah, passed away.

Like a different of ours. Yeah, sure. And he was instrumental in the Iojs fork. That's when we met him, right?

I remember that show and we all hit it off. That was a great episode. It kind of served a little bit of purpose to get that story out and help, I think, to a certain extent in a small way, I owe and node get back together and they resolved it. I mean, it was a four.

It was a hard fork slash re-merge in record time, probably for the history books. I wonder, there was the murb rails thing, but this was bigger that because it was more so what a 2013. It did. Yes.

Murb was probably like early change log 2009. Yeah, probably Penguin days. Yeah. Pngwynn.

Yeah, that was good for Iojs and node to kind of come back. I mean, it was joint and I believe Scott, I can't recall his last name. The moment was the CEO at the time and we had him on the podcast discussing that change and really just it was about the proper steward of that open for project. I think at the time it was so new to folks.

It was like, how do you actually do this in a way that represents the business? Now Brian controls on the podcast. He was CTO at the time. That happened.

He could probably speak to some of the technical details behind there. Brian, let's do an insider on the node. I owe if you have one, obviously you probably do. You have an insider on most things.

Cool. From D-Trace to ZFS to Sun to now full rack massive cloud compute that you own on principal on the outside. Seriously? Yeah.

It has been a journey, man. It's been a journey, obviously. I think it's bittersweet for me too, because, you know, there's a lot about a relationship that a lot about podcast with you. I just truly cherish.

It's going to be tough. It's going to be different. It's going to be tough to do the show without you. I look forward to it in positive ways, because you have to, but also in a lot of negative ways.

I think that's one thing with the relationship that you truly cherish, that it's hard to walk away from and not do it with grace. That's what I want to do with us, is just make sure that we walk away with grace and dignity in the process, because I love you, man, and I love for fun together. While the show isn't ending, it's just challenging. It's the end of a chapter and the start of a new one.

That's right. It's going to be great. It is bittersweet. I mean, change is part of our name, J-Log.

It's a hard thing to like, always say half of, right? Yes. Some brain, you can sort of like give them a nickname in a way. It's kind of hard to nickname change log.

Is there a change or a log? That's right. And then you've got to communicate it, or snake case it, or hyphen case it. Sorry, buddy.

Gapping between change and log. Is that probably our biggest shared pet peeve of all time? Is the uppercase L on a change log? You know, it's a bad amount.

You don't know us. It's a tell. It's a smell. You don't understand how pedantic we are about such things.

And the other is below our case L guys. Come on. I think this with the details, you know, this like you have to sweat that kind of detail. You have to be that level pedantic to deliver quality at a clip that we have for so long.

You have to have that level of care and detail. You have to. Right on. And if you don't, it shows.

I mean, it's not that you can't do it. It's just it's going to show the Christian show. Yeah. Yeah.

If you care, then you'll care, you know, and we certainly care and that was what makes this hard. Of course, it's going to be, it's going to be good and bad. It's bittersweet. As you said, I'm excited for a new chapter.

I don't know what comes next for me. I know in the short term, a little bit of a break will be nice from everything. I'm planting a little tree farm. So getting my hands in the dirt, you know, kind of doing some of that analog stuff I've been talking about recently.

Back to the dirt. Back to the dirt. That's a good thing too. You know, I came from dirt and going back to the dirt, call me Joe dirt.

Joe dirt. Yeah, man. But we don't need to have a run it for too long. There's big news that surprise the enemy.

I was the speak of the crack. Since you mentioned cracks. We're not even having cracks. I'm going to mention cracks.

My second was this was the rust that the rust was cracking in a positive way. Ladybird cracked. Yeah. And said, you know what?

Swift is actually not what we need. Even after they create careful evaluation early on, they cracked and they said, you know what? Russ is actually better. And I think the bigger, more unique crack here, which is I kind of expected in this world was the leveraging of AI to get there, which I thought was quite, I don't know, I guess at some point it's going to be everywhere and it's going to be expected and anticipated that AI is involved in everybody's day to day coding adventures.

It's not surprising, but nice to see the cracks and came back to the good land, which is rust. Which is rough. So a little bit of context here when Andreas clean and Chris, Chris, once or often who went to difficult name is a quick way. We're on our part probably last summer, maybe two summers ago.

I don't know exactly when it was, but it's when they announced the foundation around labor and all the stuff they were doing with the money raise and stuff. I'm not money raised. What do you say? Chris donating.

Speaking plainly that will deal. We asked them about that. And at the time, Andreas said, we're going swift like labor is written in C++, but they're going to start porting certain portions of it over to swift. And we released that as a short clip of a longer conversation and it's become quite a popular YouTube video where people like to go there and argue about whether or not that was right and why Rust is better and why Swift is better.

And why didn't they go with go? I don't know. There's all kinds of comments on that particular video. And so I was very surprised to see this because Andreas didn't really pull any punches and saying not that he dislikes rust, but that he didn't think it was a good fit for a browser because of how object oriented the Dom is and how browsers work, take his word for it not mine and how that rust doesn't really have the facilities he thinks that he would want in order to do that.

And he still hasn't really changed on that. He actually mentions it in his blog post about like Ladybird adopting rust. He still thinks that, but it's just a pragmatic choice. Rust has the ecosystem.

Rust has the momentum. Rust has a lot of other good things about it. Security of course for browsers imperative and so important to a lady bird team that it was the pragmatic choice. And that's a curveball.

I was just like, didn't see that one. Yeah. I think the way they proved it themselves was less of a curveball when you get into the details. I think when you look at the details, they start with lib.js.

That's a labor JavaScript engine. It's a project. Andres described quite well in terms of what it is, but it's got a great, it's got extensive test coverage per Andres, which I think makes it a good starting point because if you've got great tests, it's pretty easy for, I would say, an LLM to say, okay, here's a bunch of tests to prove all the things. Let's just use that as a great way to get to the side here.

One thing you pointed out was there was the result was around 25,000 lines of rust. The entire port took around two weeks. We noted that the same work would have taken him about multiple months to do by hand, which is kind of obvious to anybody who's been using AI coding or agent coding or agent. It's pretty obvious that what you can do in a day or two or a week or two with a tool like that.

The 25,000 lines of rust, the entire port took around two weeks and the same work would have taken multiple months to do by hand. But the fact they start with a great project from the inside like Lib.js with great testing, that is what I think gives you confidence. Okay, we've got a great code base with great test coverage. That's a great start to pull in this transition.

Yes. And it's safe to call and it's a gray beard. I know he has a beard. He's a really gray.

The guy's around. And his title this post was Ladybird.dops rust with help from AI. And when I log this and change all news from Monday, I almost pulled that part out because I searched for the whole thing with AI and I was like, well, where is the AI? I didn't get to that Lib.js part fast enough.

He actually specifically names cloud code and code X for the translation. I was looking for AI and I thought, was he just link baiting? Is this link baiting with the help from AI? Because he wanted to get more attention as if he needs help with Ladybird.

It's already a popular project. And that means that I actually did find the portion. I was like, okay, this is legit. It makes sense coming from him.

The thing produced a lot of what he calls C++ style rust, which is totally fine for what they've done so far. And it was just such a very good use of these tools, especially in the hands of an expert, to see how it made that which is intimidating. If not, I wouldn't call it impossible for him. He certainly could have gotten it done.

But just an intimidating project. So much more approachable. And that's really, I think, the unlock for people of all skills, but even for somebody who could sit down and hand code every single line and does a lot of that work and continues to and takes pride in his craft and all these things. It's like, here's huge unlocks here.

And that got me thinking about Rust in general. Maybe it's benefit. I know you've been picking some up a little bit with the help of Claude and other tools and whatever it is. Rust's biggest drawback is its complexity, mental overhead.

It's hard to learn. Let me just say that. It's very terse. Yes.

It requires a lot. The compiler pieces do off. Exactly. The code sucks.

Yeah, all the things. You know, well aware. Even if you put into prod, you know, your issues, that's the thing. Right.

You learn how to perform at compile time. Yes. Compile time bugs, better than runtime bugs as all of our static friends will tell us. I'm a fan of some dynamic languages, but I totally get it.

Ruby. Yeah. I'm just going to Ruby for a moment. I'm sorry.

Ruby before I started changing login, I'm going to be writing Ruby after I leave change login. Ruby for life. That's right. So beautiful.

So amazing. Yes, I'm a big fan of both of those. But I'm thinking that like, it's such a win for language like Rust to get mass adoption, because now we have tools that help us over all of those difficult parts, you know, like, eventually I think if you stick with it, even if you're not hand coding, like you're, you are code reviewing, you are instructing, you are testing, et cetera, I think you learn it over time. But I think you learn it without any of the like show stoppers that certain people of stubbornness make it through a lot of us just throw up our hands and say like, that is language is not for me.

So they really lowers the barrier to rust and I think makes rust way more approachable to way more people. What do you think? Honestly, honestly, it should be. I think after using it, obviously, any language reports, right?

And there's trade offs. But I think largely the safety around rust is just bar none. It's efficiency. The way it is memory is amazing.

You know, I'm not the super rust nurse. I can't go into it. I'm not that that that person here. But the memory efficiency with rust is just the one thing with goes, you've got the garbage collector.

So if you have an interface or even like a network interface, that requires zero latency or very, very minimized latency, almost zero, then rust is your choice over go because go will introduce those steps, those stops with the garbage collector. And they're small, but if the byte matters, then the byte matters, it'd be a database, for example. That's a challenge. One thing he says, though, is if you, I mean, the blog here, he said, if you look at the code, you'll notice it has a strong quote translated from C++ and quote vibe.

That's because it is translated from C++. And so I wonder, you know, if that's a bad thing for the long term code base, let's just like spit all this a little bit. While there was a test coverage, while there was, you know, an existing code base existing test coverage, why translate from C++ versus new implementation? I know that he was trying to solve a problem.

He was trying to prove the concept probably. But if rust truly is, and it seems like they're going to keep writing C++ alongside of rust, it's what he mentioned on the post. It's not like a straight cut off. Like this is not the winner.

In like a intra-op kind of scenario where they were doing both boundaries. But just thinking about it, like why not, what would have been the process, do you think, to not translate, but rewrite it, take feature for feature. How could you not translate it versus just say, here's this, examine this code base, we're not translating it. Here's the code, but here's the test coverage, here's all the things that's testing for which can be intent based, which is what you hear a lot, or what you will hear a lot in this new world, which is like specs, intent, you know, document-driven, all those are synonymous with, I understand what intent is, I understand what user experience should be, or the extent should be I'm trying to get to.

here's where I'm at, my intent is x, which is what he could've done here. What do you think about an intent driven versus, I guess, ported, yeah, this way, where it was translated from C++, why not inspired by versus translated? That's a really good question. I think that he could answer it better than I could, but what I would surmise is kind of like, when we talk about what's gonna change here around the change log and the answer is like, as little as possible, like I won't be here, but everything else is gonna be pretty much try to stay the same because you don't want, when you have big change, you don't wanna have big radical change necessarily.

I think in this case, when you have a big change between introducing to a code base, which is like here comes a new language and you're proving that out and you're taking steps in that direction. It's like, let's do as little as we can, but still make progress. And so as little change as possible, you're way more likely to get it replaced when you can give the tools the existing code and the tests. And so let's not rethink the architecture, everything.

Let's just, here's our scaffold, let's pull out this part and let's put in that part and make sure the building still stands. And let's call that a win and that will help us decide if this is a direction that we wanna go. And yeah, we're gonna have some C++ looking rust code at the end of the day, but we can slowly swap it out as we do rethink and rewrite subsections. Just like you're gonna make little tweaks here and there to change our news as you go out making it yours.

And so like, I think that's probably the reason, probably we just got them way faster that way too, because give, claud and codecs as much as they can have, and they're gonna crank way faster than having to, I mean, I guess that's an assumption. Maybe they won't, what do you think? Would they do better with existing code than with none? You know, I don't know.

I think I would honestly because the cost is near zero or as close to zero, it's ever been to either try. I would say I would try honestly, because a fresh new code base, and I wanna say it might be something where, and I'm not sure how much I explained for the rust, Andreas, as I think as he becomes more confident, the one thing that rust does for you is it gives you confidence in what you're delivering because of the way it compiles, because of the way that you get past that compile time, it gives you a lot more confidence in the code you've actually written. Because you squash so many possible bugs in the future with that. I think a future endeavor of his might be to literally rerun from scratch with rust, but I think that would only come if they give it a true, this is the only language we use, this is the way forward, et cetera, but that's not what they're doing.

I think that I would, because the cost is near zero try. This is a long story for it there, but. Well friends, I'm here with my good friend Chris Kelly, over at Augment code. Chris, I'm a fan, I use Augie on the daily.

It's one of my daily drivers, and I use cloud code, I use Augment, Augie. And I also use Antcode and others, but Augie, I keep going back to it. And here's where I'm at, I feel like not enough of our audience knows about Augment code, not enough about Augie, the CLI. It's amazing, I love it.

What can you share? Yeah, we often say Augment is the best coding assistant you've never heard of, and that's both frustrating as it's on the work there, and it's very proud of the work we've done. But also inspiring, we want to go and punch above our weight, because we aren't anthropic and we aren't open AI. And so the quality of the product itself, with our context engine, once you do touch it, people are blown away by that.

And so that keeps me going every day. So not to bear the lead here, but this is a paid spot. You are sponsoring this show to get this awareness. Now at the same time, we're selective, and I love to use it as your tool.

But there is in the world, so a lot of developers look at the space and say, okay, well, how long can this work? How long is this sustainable? In the case of cursor or a windsurf, or you pick the name and you think this kind of tokens, help me chip a lens for audience. I think it's a lot of awareness, right?

Like, cursor got a lot of publicity early on for like fast revenue growth, which well deserved. I think, you know, frankly, some of the media got the story wrong, and that like, if I gave you $1.50 for every dollar, you sent me, I'd be the fastest growing startup in the valley. And so when you're selling discounted tokens, yes, of course you're gonna go very fast, but all that money plus more goes to the model providers. So I think the real story is the story of anthropic, and being an API provider.

I think the market just moves so fast, and there's so many pieces of competition out there that it's just hard to get noticed. So friends, I love augmented code, and I love using Augie, and I highly recommend you use it. I love using Augie. I can hand Augie a well-defined specification, a well-defined PEP, as I call them in my world, an agent flow, and it executes flawlessly.

So the cool thing about Augie that I love most really is that context engine, and I can hand it a task, and it just churn away on my well-defined plan, and just never bother me, and accomplish the mission. It is so cool, leveraging the latest models, the context engine, and all the fun things behind the scenes in that awesome CLI. So yes, go try it out, augmentedcode.com. Right in the top there is a CLI icon, a terminal icon, click that, install it, and change your world.

It's gonna be awesome, augmentcode.com. If you're thinking about contributing, or saying, you know what, I wanna try this, I wanna port some of this code, not invited, okay? Don't get sad. Not invited.

It says you wanna be delivered about which parts are getting ported in order, so porting is managed by the core team. Please coordinate, essentially, don't do it, and waste your time if it's not something that can't merge. I've never phrased in that last sentence there, but I think if you're interested in this port, or if you're at least tantalized by the effects of Rust, and you're seeing it daily in your newsfeed, and in this case, I saw three times. We haven't covered all three yet.

Then I think, go check out the codebase, and watch them in action and see what's happening. What does it take to go from C++ to Rust, and what's happening behind the scenes? And I'm sure on their YouTube, they'll publish more content, but I'd like to see more of this, because Rust is the language in that space of the future. Just this.

You heard here first, it's calling it. Just this. Why? I'm just following a lead, you know, just in the stream.

Yeah, man. Just seeing what happens and just saying it out loud. No, I don't disagree with you. It's overwhelming, it's adoption, and it's benefits.

And I think C++ will be in this codebase for four years, if not in perpetuity. I don't think they're going to ever completely crush it. And I think he said that even on the show. It's like, yes, this is more like a direction.

It'll be parts that we exchange, other parts that might even make more sense, and just leave alone. My answer back to your why not just try, because since the cost is zero, the only answer I have for that is like, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Like, there's other stuff that you can be working on, obviously, you can get multiple agents going, but the price of agents is not nothing. And it's probably, I don't know, it's gonna go up, it's gonna go down.

It feels like so many- There's a lot of blood and water right now between the agents at large, you know? All right, there's this whole like, cloud code subscription thing with open code. I don't know if you've been tracking that, but the way that, yeah. So in Tropic, I think had an amazing idea with cloud code subscription, which I loved it.

Like as soon as Jose added ACP, is that what's called agent client protocol? As soon as I could use my cloud code subscription inside TIGWAV, I was ready to dive in. Whereas if I had to go out and get a separate source of funding and get an API keys and like spend API tokens. It was an agent client protocol, that was it.

Yeah, ZZ started it. And I think that TIGWAV is using it in order to use cloud code from inside TIGWAV versus a cloud API token. And it's like, I can piggyback that on top of my already existing monthly fixed limit. As a guy who likes to know what he spent every month, I like that.

Like it just makes it easy to adopt her. Same thing with like these new open-cloths, style tools. If we can just plug in our codecs already paying whatever, open AI, we're already paying in Tropic, just plug them in and then it gets rate limited as I have tokens available per month. It's a fixed cost.

I feel good about that. Well, Antropic does not feel good about that. So they've been changing kind of the rules around your cloud code subscription and saying that you can't use it for their party tools. You have to use API tokens.

And this has a lot of people, not too happy. I'm one of them, but I also totally understand it because I mean, they gotta make some money, right? They got these huge valuations. They gotta have revenue, right?

Yeah. When you look at the landscape, this is at least where my lens is at. And this is Google has money to burn. And they can operate at zero margin and profit for a long time.

Totally. They gotta catch that which is different. Precisely. And so then you have Antropic, large investment, large capital raised, massive valuation.

You see the big number, but the spend is so astronomical. And then you couple that with opening out the same, right? The same large investment. Yeah.

And you got two key players that can't lose, right? That's the game of business, like don't lose. That's the object, right? Don't lose and play for as long as you can't, right?

Play forever. But when you have Google, and they're doing well, I mean, they're doing quite well. They're very impressive. They're, I mean, just, they're actually surprising me.

I didn't think they would, but they are. But when you have this kind of scenario where you've got such massive capital raised and you've got Google who can essentially operate at no profit for as long as they have to, they can believe them dry to some degree. So they have to win, they have to profit. So when you look at this landscape, y'all, it's not by surprise that Antropic and opening our going for ways to make money.

And Google's given away, no book L.A., I'm given away, in a banana, given away things in a lot of ways because they're the ones with the most to lose. These other folks are essentially new, that OpenEye is the incumbent when it comes to the first large language model that was largely used by Mass. Right. But Google's catching up and they have the dollars to fund catching up and they have the dollars to lose catching up and flatten the market.

And so you've got those worlds and you've got to expect this. Now is it a good business for Open Code? No, I think our friends over there, that's not cool to do that. I don't know what that means.

This news about, which is not any of our notes, but this news of what is it called, distilling, the open models distilling from a mass infiltration into Enthropic and Claude and whatnot, a massive amount. And the words are like, plotting this. I'm not sure that's all I'm doing. I'm not sure that's on what that means.

I didn't prepare for that. I'm not sure about it. I'm not sure about it. Short version.

I think I know what it means, but I'm not totally up to it, which is that, and this is Antropic is saying that there are organizations abroad, I'll just leave it that big, that have been. Basically, creating tons of accounts and prompting Claude and extracting a whole bunch of stuff in order to train their models on the results. And that's what you mean by distilling, I think, like taking the results and turning them into a new model. And they're mad about it, which I understand why they are.

Mike's playing it right. Is this what you're talking about? Yes. OK, so let's see.

I grot that really fast, because honestly, grot is the best for real-time news. Let's see if they can actually help me out here. So I'm going to paraphrase a little bit about the biggest recent story involving Enthropic. This is me reading directly from grot's response.

So forgive me if there's any corrections or lack of correctness. The biggest story involving Enthropic coming behind Claude Code, Claude E.I. models, and distillation broke just yesterday, which was February 23rd. This is February 24th, 2026 as we record.

Enthropic probably accused three major Chinese A.I. companies, DeepSeek, Moonshot A.I. and Minmax, or sorry, Minmax, of running large-scale coordinated distillation attacks on Claude to steal slash improve their models. There you go.

Now the world will say, our fellow friends out there on Twitter slash X and other places will, we'll plot this. I'm just not sure I want to plot anything in this tumultuous world where there's massive downness, I would say, in a world we want massive upness. OK, I'm not sure I want to plot this. I'm sort of in the middle there, because they would say that well, Enthropic did the same thing to other things to get to where they're at, how did their models get trained in the first place, et cetera, and I get that argument.

But that genie is out of the bottle, and applauding somebody's downfall, I suppose, because of somebody else's upfall, especially in a coordinated distillation attack. I mean, would you categorize it as an attack? I suppose so. They're going to categorize an attack, I guess, depends on who you are.

I think they said like there was 12 million. I saw this post from 24,000 fake fraudulent accounts, if this is correct from the recent. They're using a slurp down result. Generated over 16 million exchanges, which are conversations slash product-to-cloud.

Yeah, so like are they paying? If they're paying, then it's like, I'm sure it's against the terms and they could do their accounts. I don't know, it's a tough one. I think that obviously the existing players who have trained their models on the world's information, including proprietary content, and the work of artists, and the work of photographers, and just et cetera, and work of coders in the case of some of these models trained on publicly available code, but not limited license code, not merely limited license code, and so they're stopping on GPL code, for instance, which we know has happened.

I feel like there's recourse for them in the United States, at least, these are all American companies, in the case of Microsoft, OpenAI, Anthropic, and Google. They're all going to be adjudicated in the court of law. And if there's any justice in our court system, which sometimes you get it, sometimes you don't, I think that will play out. And there has been results based on scanning books, buying books, et cetera.

But when it comes to the world stage, what do you do when it's coming from a different country, or a different jurisdiction? I don't know. Yeah, so that's a tough one. It's murky.

Yeah, summarize it at the bottom. It says, in short, distillation itself is normal tech. I mean, if you look at it's a sort of short engine, I believe the way that Airbnb became successful initially was because they leveraged off a nonexistent web-based, scraping API against Craigslist. They would find things that could be proposed.

I mean, this is an history book. So that's a version of distillation. It's kind of like one person's scrappy startup is like another person's attack, you know? Yeah.

Because while we were just trying to figure it out and we needed data and so we scraped some data and who hasn't gone out and just scraped some websites for their own use. I mean, how do you? Yeah, I mean, 100%. You got to do it with taste.

Obviously, Terms of Service is a real thing. Yes. And that's what they say here is like doing it at massive scale against the competitors API in violation of TOS terms of service, especially across borders. This is what enthalpy is calling out as a major problem right now.

I understand that, I guess. Who's got time to read those terms of service, okay? Right. We need the one person.

We need to have your agent click on it, okay? It's right. All you need to just spin up an agent, call them, you know, clicker, clicker bot, agree bot and have it do it for you now. Yes.

Did you actually, are you at fault then? If you didn't actually click that acceptance, something else clicked for you? Time will tell. Time will tell.

It's a weird world as things get increasingly, agent, and increasingly like the snake eating its own tail. You know, I think we'll start to see it unravel even more. I don't know. Well, that was not at all in our list of things to talk about today.

Well, we said that a little bit. But it happens. Yes. Let's quickly mention two things more about Rust and move on to a couple other topics.

I want to mention Ubuntu is also using Rust. We're not going to go into detail there, but there's a lot of cool things happening there. I think Rust has a recent survey out that I don't have notes on what I mentioned. There's a new survey for it.

We'll put in the show notes. And then obviously there is some change in terms of compilers, registries, tooling for Python, JavaScript, et cetera. It's not being written in Rust. And one of the most recent was OXC's JavaScript oxidation compiler, which is a collection of high performance JavaScript tools written in Rust.

Okay, let's just put two, maybe a phrase together. High performance, I guess, in words of hyphenated, right? High performance and written in Rust. Those two phrases will forever, that's a way to describe the next project you do in Rust if it is a tool for X written in Rust.

It's going to be high performance written in Rust. And if you just wrote it recently, then it's modern. So put it on there. True.

Okay. Now I mean, that dog hunts, you're selling right there. So let's go. I mean, we're using the same verbiage that's that I actually did with with UV and others.

Like the Rust is high performance. Rust is fast. Rust is memory efficient. And just one thing on C++, the one issue with C++ is how you have to manage memory in your mind as you're designing and writing the code.

And now if you're using an I, then you're not writing much of the code to write it. But you still have to manage the memory manually where Rust is at for you. So that's kind of what makes it high performance is the developer can let go of that concern because the compiler is just that smart. That was the design of Rust all along.

That was what the, they tried to do writing it, but I wanted to mention that quickly on that front. You want to touch on it all before we high-tail the rules? Yeah, totally. So first of all, this is not from Astral, even though it's.

It sounds like it should be, you know who it is from, it's from Void Zero, which is Avenue startup, Avenue of View and Vite fame. And so he has his Bonifidase. And so this is from people who know what they're doing. RS and so it's the foundation of modern job and so what is it?

Oh, excellent. There's a linter. So again, following a little bit in Astral footsteps there, they started with Ruff, which was their linter, I believe. And then there's OX-Funt as the gophers like to call it.

OX-format. But in Go Land, they always like to say Funt. Yeah, Funt. FMT.

So there's either OX-Funt or OX-Funt, you know, U-Design, which is a prettier, compatible, formatter. And then they have a parser, which of course, I think these other things are probably built on. And a transformer and a resolver and a minifier. So it's a bunch of sub-projects with free and open source.

So this is cool. This is cool. How in the world do you build such amazing things on free and open source things? It is a conundrum in this new world.

Wow. I'm so happy about it. Well, that's so very scary. In the case of Void Zero and OX-C.

That's what they're calling this. OX-C. Yeah, OX-C. Built on sponsorships.

So there's some silver sponsors on the website, bronze sponsors and individual backers. And so, you know, they're going straight up sponsorship style. And hopefully that works for them. Yeah.

OX. Look at this domain, Jer. We didn't even mention the domain yet. R-S.

Rust. Rust. Right? That's the center for Rust.

That's a five-letter domain right there. That's a nice one. OX-C. Rust slash sponsor, if you are interested, they have details on why the sponsors are which is seems to be plentiful from individual backers to corporate sponsors.

One of the recent sponsor hours, so good as to them is Miro. Miro actually, I should say. They told me to say that it's hero. I can't say the word M-I-R-O and not think Miro.

It is. Same. Miro. But it is actually Miro.

Miro, like hero. Sounds like hero. So you won't know. Yeah.

So when you think Miro, think Miro, like hero. OK. There you go. Just to be clear, not sponsor, but they have been a sponsor.

And so that's just baked into Miro. That's what I was brought to you by our desire to say things correctly. That's right. That's right.

Let's go on-prem. Let's go self-host. I think I don't know what you're feeling this year, but I feel like the future this year, this last year, was the crack and the earth to say on-prem is where it's at. I think as we drive more of our own internal tooling, as we start building more of our own SaaS replacements, let's just say, you're going to desire to self-host.

And now is the best time ever to get into home lab, if you're not into that at all. And I think the future to me self-host is on-prem. And I'm excited about that. I'm so excited about that, as you can probably tell.

Well, I have a little secret I'm happy to reveal, which is that. I bought a Mac Mini. I bought a Mac Mini. Wow.

Yeah. SaaS before. Our friend, Open Claw. Well, it's so heavy.

Yeah, to a certain extent. I've just been building more stuff. It's just living in a world where you can go from idea to something working in minutes. It's just hard not to just build everything you think of, but just more things.

And I just build stuff here on my laptop. And maybe I have one source. Maybe I don't. I don't run here.

Fine. I have a building stuff that runs on schedules. And I'm just like, my laptop closes. It's not a server.

It's not a server. This is a work computer that moves places. And I don't have all I have, the only other computer I have in my entire house besides laptops for my wife and kids, is the Raspberry Pi that's in the basement that's not plugged in. And I just write Raspberry Pi 3.

Yeah. Yeah. And totally. I don't know what you're doing.

But then I thought it's just time for some new hardware. And everyone's buying Mac Mini. I got caught up and I told you about my friend told me after or texted me after the news about Open Claw. And he was like, I just bought a Mac Mini.

And I'm just like, you know what? I'm just going to buy one. I actually bought the exact specs that you said you would buy. I think I'm going to show it when we talked about it.

Yeah. The second tier of the top tier. It's the top tier. Ooh.

It's the pro. Yeah. I did not go full RAM because I'm not going to run much local. I don't know.

I didn't want to spend. I always go to a random. I know. I want to spend more RAM.

Here's the other problem. I want to play with it. And when you go more RAM, it kicks it back like three weeks to ship. Oh, yes.

And I'm like, yeah, I mean, if I'm having tons of fun, I don't know. I'll buy another one or something and give this one. You can bolt on storage. You can't bolt on RAM.

Yeah. And you can bolt on storage at Thunderbolt 5, I believe, in the Mac Mini. It could be wrong. It could be Thunderbolt 4.

So you've got that full bandwidth. Anyway, so I'm going on for an on-prem. And I'm going on for whatever it is that I have nothing to run. But I've been having some fun.

And I do. I did try out Nanoclaw. I haven't set up Open Claw. But I do want to know this weird world all these people are living in and try it for myself.

Zero Claw, actually. It might be the one I set up first, because that's really lost. And way less resource heavy. I don't know.

But I'm excited to just move some stuff off my laptop over to there and put it on a scheduler. That got me thinking, you know, Mac's built-in scheduler is Launch D, which really doesn't have a good interface. And then just in the shower, I was like, I should just build a GUI for it and be sweet. I could do that in an afternoon with me and my friends.

And then it'd be like a cool Launch D GUI. Otherwise, you can use Cron, but it's a little bit different on Mac and things can be weird. So yeah, I'm all about it, I guess. We'll see.

I'd like to see that Launch D GUI. That's actually, that's cool. That's cool. I got stuck on a name.

I couldn't think of a good name. That's why I didn't build it. You gotta have a good name first, and then you build the thing. But I don't know.

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I did think about Bill Riley. So a little request from the audience. If you're a meme or if you like the meme out there, take Bill Riley when he says F it will do it live and say F it will do it on prem, okay? Because that's what the world needs.

Is on prem and self-hosted is the way of the future. The cost still there and it's still great, but I think I just miss, you know, like a lot of folks touching things like rack and server. Like I've got off camera, you can't see it here. I've got one motherboard there, a case there, an SSD NVMe over there, a cooler right there.

Yes, I'm work to do. And lack of time, man, lack of time. But I got things that got two other boards, two CPUs, the couple things to build. And I'm just doing that kind of stuff.

I love building as you already know. Yeah. But I say we'll miss it as if I miss it, but I don't actually miss it, because I get to do it frequently. I miss it in terms of time.

But I'm paraphrasing and mentioning this post on Reddit, this fellow own General 675-5 one day ago. Am I the only one who genuinely prefers on-prem over the cloud? Now, Jared, we use fly. We love fly.

We're friends with render, we're friends with other folks as well. I think there's, I'm not saying those folks are bad by any means, but I think when you're only answering, I think this is what own General 675-5 is alluding to. And I'm not going to say this whole entire phrase, all the details in his Reddit post on our DevOps. But it's this fact that when you go into a new job, you go into a new position, you go into a new scenario where you're stacking new infrastructure, it's largely APIs and services, you're kind of piecing together.

And as you know, the goos are dying and CLIs are winning in this new world. And you have to navigate all these settings. We've just did this with keys. I couldn't see the keys that, I mean, it's called, they're called account keys.

Why cannot I see the account keys? You create your... How about cloud flare? Does that make any sense?

Cloud flare? That doesn't make any sense. That doesn't make any sense. That doesn't make any sense.

I mean, like the fact that I couldn't see them, because they were both looking at the same screen. And we're just like talking past each other. Same credentials even. Like the same permissions, the same administrative level permissions made no sense.

Okay, no sense. And so when you're in that world, and you have to like, okay, sure, you have to have keys in on-prem, you have to have SSH keys and permissions and things like that, user accounts and you got it, goo-ids, gooey-id, you got all sorts of things, you UI-Ds and stuff. Sure. You have those issues, but that's something you can control on-prem by just SSHing in and Linuxing, the way Linux works.

You know, when you miss this world, and you have to build infrastructure on the cloud only, it just, you just get to miss it. So I'll say, you get to miss that kind of scenario. Your only choice to build your next big thing is cloud. I say, no, it's not cool.

Self-host it first. In fact, tail-scale funnel, your way to success. What's that? Well, it's like a tunnel, but it's a funnel.

Okay. So you can take something, say you got something running locally on a port, let's say port 8080. You can tail-scale serve and tail-scale funnel that thing into essentially punching a hole, which actually doesn't punch a hole, through the firewall because it's a mesh network, and enable connectivity from the outside in and the inside out, for example. And so you can actually run a service on your Mac, like you've got, or on your, ain't got time to build it yet, but I'm gonna soon kind of thing, okay?