It's springtime, which means that Princeton University Press is having its annual 50% off spring sale. From May 4th through June 9th, you can get 50% off nearly every single print, e-book, and audio book from Princeton University Press. Just go to press.prinston.edu to get 50% off incredible books like Disneyland and the Rise of Automation. And beyond belief, evidence shows what really works.
There are so many fantastic books you can get an incredible deal on. Go to press.prinston.edu and use the code spring50. That's sp-r-i-n-g-50 at press.prinston.edu. This day only lasts for a month, so go and get some books.
Hello. Thank you for joining us. We're proud to welcome you to our special series, In Chains, brought to you by Brill, where we talk about the history and the current state of slavery and human trafficking. On your host, Lee John Grego.
Today we're speaking with Professor Vosko Becker Weinberg. He's a professor at Nova School of Law in Lisbon, Portugal, and the author of Time to Get Serious about combating forced labor and human trafficking in fisheries and legal and gender implications of human trafficking. Professor Becker Weinberg, thank you so much for sitting down with us. Thank you for your kind invitation.
So first of all, tell us a little bit about how you got started on this article here. Give us a little background about yourself. Well, I really came across this topic some years ago. But it was sort of a chance of how it happened.
And I continued doing some research. But I was really intrigued that there wasn't so much research on the intersection between human trafficking and forced labor and the maritime domain, so to speak. And it was only when I was asked to do some work for an international labor organization. It's regional office in Southeast Asia that really understood the scale of this problem that we are facing.
And it should affect all of us. It should affect all of humankind. And during that work in Southeast Asia, I was asked to elaborate a report, to try to report, that focused on three jurisdictions, the Philippines, Indonesia, and Thailand. And it involved as well doing two field missions to Jakarta and to Manila.
And that's the contact I had there with officials organizations and with employers organizations, but also governments officials, other authorities and stakeholders really conveyed to me the human dimension of this issue, not so much as a theoretical issue that we have to deal with, but in essence, the human nature of this problem. And it was really difficult from a personal point of view because it's really to say clearly, a punch in the stomach when you realize the full scale and how complex this issue is and what is the human cost that it entails, but also how difficult it is with the existing legal instruments to actually tackle this without some determination that is somehow wanting. Therefore, I had this provocative title, Time to Get Serious About It in the article that you mentioned, because really I fully believe that we should really engage as not only at the state level, but also at every other level, including consumer responsibility that can have a profound change in the current status quo. So as you mentioned, this is not something theoretical.
This is something that affects our everyday lives all over the world. When I was reading this, I thought of the Associated Press investigation from 2016, that investigation into the fishing industry in Southeast Asia, freed 2000 slaves and traced the seafood they caught to supermarkets and pet food providers across the United States. I'm wondering if you can give our listeners an idea of why corruption and slavery are so pervasive and why they thrive in this offshore industry? Well, it is a combination of factors, really.
But in essence, this is a crime that pays off. It has a high degree of impunity, but also a high degree of reward. And, undoubtedly, it is up there with arms trafficking and other illicit activities and a global perspective, I mentioned. And as you mentioned, it's across the whole fishing industry.
It means that in the case of the youth, for example, there are measures in place to prevent the import of fish products that, in its core, might have resort to the use of forced labor. Today, we refer to this phenomenon as modern slavery. It has been sort of, the same has been given to emphasize the dramatic impact that this is happening. Because the notion of slavery is a very old concept, but it's also a legal concept.
And unfortunately, when referring to forced labor and human trafficking, although we can refer to it as a modern day slavery sort of phenomena, it is not slavery. And the reason why I'm saying this from the beginning is that if it were slavery, the tools under the national law would be far more effective because slavery is century old practice that has developed significant amount of rules that are enforceable and do not depend on international legal instruments. It is part of what we consider a custom international law. So this would essentially mean that a state, any state, could stop a vessel that is engaged in a transport of slaves.
But this is a rule that we have in the national law. However, this is not the situation when we're dealing with forced labor or human trafficking and fisheries at sea. But to answer the question of why corruption and slavery thrive in this industry and fisheries, because the connection between forced labor and human trafficking and fisheries, particularly in the case of illegal, unregulated and unreported fishing is vile and highly profitable. As I mentioned, there's a huge reward in this activity and a high degree of impunity.
And the simple fact is that it can be found all over the world. You mentioned Southeast Asia, but we know today that this practice, resorting to forced labor and human trafficking in fisheries, exists all over the world. Furthermore, a fishing vessel can be placed with abuse more extreme than any other workplace on shore. At sea, a fishing vessel is out of sight for long periods of time with little or no opportunity for fishers to escape.
The working and living conditions on board are simply described as inhumane. During one of my field trips to Southeast Asia, I interviewed fishers and I met a fisher who told me that he had been taken from Indonesia and spent a year and a half at sea without seeing land. And his family actually presumed him dead. They organized a funeral for him.
And so he boarded in Indonesia and he was released in South Africa by an NGO. So the dramatic scale of this, you can't really, we can look at this as a global perspective, but if we separate and look at every individual story of every human being that has been forced to work, or has been trafficked to work on a fishing vessel, it is overwhelming. The combination between these different realities forced labor and human trafficking and IUF benefits from a high degree of impunity and reward. This is the result of important governance gaps and the general lack of rule of law in the fishing industry with corruption, bribery, and association with other activities of our freedoms.
This is true, by the way, because a fishing vessel can be placed with different legal activities who exist at the same time. Well, I'm generalizing, of course, but a fishing vessel that resorts to forced labor and in trafficking, you will find victims of forced labor, victims of human trafficking. You most likely will find sexual abuse taking place on board the vessels, also drugs and arm smuggling and other illicit activities. So this is a global problem that is so complex and has so many different players and ramifications.
And therefore, corruption is just one of these elements that keeps it going. So therefore, when we tackle this, we can't remove the operational aspect of tackling illegal fishing from the legal aspect. We have to do it with a global and holistic approach in order to have an effective approach to stop this from happening. Right, and I want to talk about what the best legal approach is, but before we get to that, wondering that if you can touch on this gendered aspect that you write about, you say that forced labor and fishing is gendered, you mentioned that many of the laborers are men.
Can you talk about that a little bit more? Sure, it is true. The most men, most victims are men. And interesting, most men do not see themselves or many of the victims do not see themselves as victims.
They look into themselves being exploited, but they do not see themselves as victims. They do not personify that, well, they rather not see the considered themselves as victims. It's sort of a very perverse psychological effect. It happens in some victims, at least some of them, some of the victims I interviewed.
They are outraged because they have been exploited, but they don't see themselves as victims, as you would see, for example, in sexual abuse involving women and girls. However, when looking at human trafficking, we can't solely focus on the maritime domain. We have to consider the many layers and interconnections. And I came across the reference to this phenomenon called fish for sex.
It is observed in many different developing countries, but particularly in South South Africa. It is an arrangement between female fish traders and fishermen whereby women security are supported by making the payment or part of that payment in sexual services. Again, these women are not engaged in fishing, but they are in the fishing chain. So they're dealing with the unloaded fish.
And these fishers with them, they have these arrangements. They themselves can also be victims of forced labor and human trafficking. Nonetheless, the overwhelming majority of those forced to work on border fishing vessels are men. Women and girls that are forced to work in the processing of downloaded catch are really confined in close fishing communities.
They have trapped in a cycle of sexual abuse and in this sexual abuse, or what I mentioned as, or what is referred to as fish for sex, they have little or no escape. And this is particularly the concern, because the problem, when we look at this, and I know that you want to talk about the options later on, but it's important to understand that at sea, there are many international ramifications to the problem or possible solutions to this problem. But online is very difficult, because here we are dealing with the sovereignty of one state. So if that state where these fishing communities are located doesn't do what it should be doing to stop this cycle of abuse, it's very difficult for the international community as a whole to do something unless we really want to do something about it.
And I believe that consumer responsibility here could have a very strong role. So can you explain what these law of the sea provisions are and how they have failed to protect human rights? The law of the sea does not specifically or expressly address human rights. It seems puzzling, to say the least, at least when I always begin by saying this to any audience, because this is the nature of international law, international law is deeply fragmented, but it doesn't mean that it shouldn't be coherent.
And here I believe that the solution might be found in the systemic integration of international law, meaning the idea that international law is one unity and that different areas of international law could supplement where gaps are found. And the law of the sea, although it does not specifically address or mention that human rights doesn't mean that there is no place for human rights in the law of the sea. But this is all good, but there is, of course, a very relevant obstacle, because a traditional response or what would be the traditional response to forced labor and human trafficking in sea is based on the principle of flag, sorry, of flag state reaction. This essentially places the fate of victims first and foremost in the fact that exercise of jurisdiction by the relevant flag state with all the intricacies and shortcomings that this implies.
Such a coming to be, for example, that flag state is a flag of convenience or it belongs to an entity that does not have statehood, for example. So in one sentence, it could be phrased that a vessel where there is presence of forced labor or human trafficking is very much out of sight, out of mind. It's far from the reach of any flag state and any arm to enforce the law of that flag state, because we know that with so many ships out there transporting goods and other persons, it's very difficult for every flag state to control every ship at all times. So it is very difficult really to exercise jurisdiction.
However, it doesn't mean that other states other than the flag states can't do something. There are limited measures that coastal imports states can adopt, but even in these cases, there can be important enforcement gaps, precisely because of the multi-jurisdictional challenge posed by the ball of the sea. For example, we could have a vessel in the turtle sea of the coastal state and where you have presence of forced labor, but because it's a turtle sea, enforcement jurisdiction belongs to the coastal state. So even if the flag state would like to do something about it, it cannot engage in a law enforcement operation in the turtle sea of another state.
And the reverse can occur, for example, in the exclusive economic zone. So here, the gaps have to be filled somehow. And I believe that you can fill them precisely with other international legal regimes, particularly if states would ratify and effectively implement the ILO international labor organizations instruments, namely the World Commission Convention and the protocol to the Forsyth Convention. So yes, that leads me to my next question, is how would the Forsleeper Protocol fill those gaps, especially when it comes to enforcement?
Well, as I mentioned, the answer is on the systemic integration of legal regimes, considering the unity of international law, essentially using other international legal regimes to solve the gaps where they exist, in this case in the law of the sea. Of these two main instruments, the World Commission Convention, what is also referred to as Convention Number 188, and the protocol of 2014 to the Forsleeper Convention of 1930, these two are essential if we referring to fisheries. Of course, there are other international legal regimes addressing, for example, the United Nations Convention on Transnational and Organized Crime, which also deals with issues of corruption and organized crime. But if we only focus on these, we will find that their effective implementation would substantially improve combating and preventing the presence of Forsyth and human trafficking in fisheries.
The Forsleeper Protocol underlines the urgency of eliminating Forsleeper and compulsory labor in all of its forms and manifestations. It is really a call for states to undertake an obligation to make force or compulsory labor punishable as a pin of offense and to ensure that penalties imposed by the law are really adequate and strictly enforced. What happens in some of the cases that I've had the opportunity to study and really research is that penalties are really not, they have no decisive effect whatsoever. And if you have a crime that provides such a high degree of reward, if there's no other, if there's nothing to balance this, then if you keep having penalties that are really not very severe and if they're not even simply enforced, then you will not stop these crimes from taking place.
The protocol also recognized importance of international cooperation and national coordination with stakeholders, such as employers and workers and organizations. This seems very straightforward when written in the Convention, but it is important to understand that we are dealing with an established principle international law that subject of international law are states or international organizations. There is a limited role for non-state actors to actually be part of the international community, so to speak. However, in recent years we are seeing a shift, we are seeing a more relevant role given by states to non-state actors and this protocol emphasizes how relevant cooperation with non-state actors, such as employees and workers' organizations, in this case to prevent a limited force labor is essential.
However, the fundamental obligation it states must undertake is to criminalize forced labor and human trafficking and to implement effective measures to identify, release, protect, recover and rehabilitate victims. What happens in most cases is that, for example, that fisher that was released in South Africa, that was rescued in South Africa, he was brought back to Indonesia, he re-heated with his family, but he didn't see the people that caused him so much pain and suffering being punished. The proceeds of his exploitation were not seized and he did not receive any compensation. So the idea of rehabilitation cannot only be on paper, it has to be implemented at the same regarding access to compensation and prosecution and conviction of those that not only commit these crimes, but benefit from them.
And here there's a very important element of connection with other legal instruments that is essentially or can be translated essentially into follow the money. Make sure that no place is safe to harbor assets of such a large scale of criminal activity. I would also like to point out some other key provisions in the force labor protocol that are extremely relevant in combating, not only to prosecute and post penalties, but also to address the protection of migrant workers, because the way that you feed the chain of force that in human trafficking is mostly by, also by migrant smuggling. And migrant workers face abusive and fraudulent practices during recruitment and to the placement process.
So this has to be combated at home, not only in the state where they are being recruited, not just the state of origin, but also the state of transit and the state of destination. So if we just stop here and think, I've already identified six different states. I've mentioned the flag state, I've mentioned the coastal state, I've mentioned port states, but we also have to consider three other kinds of states, the state of origin or nationality of that victim, where it's trisited through and lastly, of destination. So this makes for very complex and challenging jurisdictional problem.
Therefore, the issues of recruitment and placement must be integrated into context of force labor convention, sorry, force labor protocol. And this comes to get to the convention number one ADA that I mentioned earlier. So, for example, how to prevent this? In order to combat fraudulent recruitment practices, we need also to make sure that those recruiting are the states where these recruitment agents or agencies are working there at the state's undertake to conduct a thorough divergence of these entities or agents, but also we need education and providing information against fraudulent practices to fishers, so that they are not misled.
By the way, not every victim found in forced labor on board a fishing vessel actually started out as a fisher. There are many migrants that have been brought in to Thailand and other countries that they had in their initial idea that they were going to work in construction, in Thailand, for example, and eventually they found they were taken into the fishing industry subject as victim of human trafficking. They started off as migrants, as migrants that were being smuggled, and then they ended up as victim of human trafficking. So these obligations have to be understood, not only in the perspective of the forced labor relationship between origin, transit, and destination state, but also as encompassing flag court and coastal states.
Because labor-sending states, transit, and destination state, they operate with their own set of obligations, in addition to those that flag court and coastal states also need to operate in. So these kind of different players have to be studied, examined, and I mean studies not merely back in back in research and academic or theoretical study, but looking in every state, if there is legislation that is adequate to prevent any combat, this phenomenon, but also that there is legislation that allows for effective enforcement of the law. And this can be done in many different ways. I would just name one.
For example, if many of these states would legislate to exercise extraterrestrial jurisdiction, for example, like the US has regarding certain situations, probably this will make it more difficult for criminals to continue recruiting in the poorest countries, and then conducting illicit or unsustainable fishing practices in also developing countries to feed a world trade of fish that is worth a huge amount of money. Because with increasing demographic and decreasing number of human beings, also the need to access protein is also increasing. But on the other side of this coin, we see that the number of fish stocks decreasing, so the value that is given to fish is increasing every day. So we need to do something.
And again, therefore, I have this provocative title of time to get serious about combating the presence of forced labor and human trafficking in fisheries. And I want to ask one last question. When you say time to get serious, what can consumers do? That's a question we've been asking on previous podcasts.
How can consumers educate themselves and be part of not only this conversation, but movement to end human trafficking and slavery? Well, I would say that the first thing is to be aware of the root causes and factors that heighten the risk of forced labor. And this can be done through education and information sharing. There's one thing that we now have access to is information.
Not all of it good information, but we can get good and solid information, particularly from the beautiful international organizations, such as agencies within the United Nations, namely the international labor organization, the UNDC Interpol and others. That really can give you that required information as consumers. You can ask the right questions. Look at the labels where the products that you're buying this market come from.
Make sure that you ask the person that you're buying from, that they would make sure that they would only sell the products that guaranteed it. No forced labor or image of me was involved. I mentioned earlier that your opinion has this very strict approach. In my personal view, there's always room for it to be more efficient and to be perfected.
But I believe that a similar system where you have checks on imports to make sure that no goods coming from abroad have on its basis forced or labor or image of me. But also looking at your own internal market, we have to remember that forced labor and human trafficking can be found in every part of the world, including our own countries. And no country, no country is exempt of having human trafficking, I would say, and I would say that there is no country in the world that does not have human trafficking or forced labor of some sort. So being aware is probably the strongest thing that we could do as consumers and then just making the right choices as a consequence of that awareness.
Professor Vosko Becker Weinberg, he is a professor at Nova School of Law in Lisbon, Portugal. Professor Becker Weinberg, thanks so much for sitting down with us. Thank you. My pleasure.
You are listening to the Humanities Matter podcast. You can find more podcast episodes on Apple Podcast, Spotify and Google Podcast.