Forget Lower Mortgage Rates—A New Economy Is Coming | 623

Keith welcomes back macroeconomist Richard Duncan of Macro Watch to examine where mortgage rates are headed and what's driving them there.  Duncan explains how the U.S. shifted from capitalism to what he calls "creditism" after the dollar left gold in 1971, and why today's AI investment boom, rising defense spending, and a $40 trillion national debt are all pointing inflation and interest rates in the same direction.  He also makes the case for rental property on land as a long-term inflation hedge, and answers a question many have asked: if the government can print currency, why does it collect taxes?  Episode Page: GetRichEducation.com/623 For access to properties or free help with a GRE Investment Coach, start here: GREmarketplace.com GRE Free Investment Coaching: GREinvestmentcoach.com Get mortgage loans for investment property: RidgeLendingGroup.com or call 855-74-RIDGE  or e-mail: [email protected] Invest with Freedom Family Investments.  For predictable 10-12% quarterly returns, visit FreedomFamilyInvestments.com/GRE or text  FAMILY to 66866  Join Mid South Home Buyers' one-time, free live webinar featuring Keith Weinhold on September 30 at GetRichEducation.com/MidSouth to learn how Memphis' economic expansion could create new real estate investment opportunities, and have your questions answered in real time. Will you please leave a review for the show? I'd be grateful. Search "how to leave an Apple Podcasts review"  For advertising inquiries, visit: GetRichEducation.com/ad Best Financial Education: GetRichEducation.com Get our wealth-building newsletter free— GREletter.com  Our YouTube Channel: www.youtube.com/c/GetRichEducation Follow us on Instagram: @getricheducation Complete episode transcript:   Keith Weinhold  0:01   Welcome to GRE. I'm your host Keith Weinhold. You're going to get a good idea of where future mortgage rates are headed as we're talking to one of the world's most brilliant macroeconomists today. Will AI be more inflationary or deflationary? And the profundity of how we're on the brink of moving into a completely new economic system today on Get Rich Education. What if I told you that one of America's strongest cash flow real estate markets is also becoming the new brains and brawn behind AI? That city is Memphis, believe it or not. In September 30th, we're going to show you why the smart money is paying attention now, along with an investing opportunity you won't want to miss. Join me, Terry Kerr and Matthew Van Horn of Mid South Home Buyers, the largest turnkey company in Memphis with more than 6000 homes under management, for a free live webinar the likes of which I've never done before. We're going to look at what billions in new investment could mean for jobs, housing demand, neighborhood appreciation, and your portfolio. Everyone who attends live will also get exclusive access to the best deal terms Mid South has ever offered. Reserve your free seat at getricheducation.com/midsouth again. that september 30. Don't say we didn't tell you. Save your spot at getricheducation.com/midsouth.   Speaker 1  1:34   You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is Get Rich Education.   Keith Weinhold  1:50   Welcome to GRE from Lancaster, Pennsylvania, to Lancaster, California, and across 188 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Weinhold. You're listening to Get Rich Education, and I really appreciate that you're here. Yes, those two cities, though spelled the same, are pronounced differently. Framing this entire episode today with our brilliant guest, you'll learn which direction future mortgage rates are probably going to move, and it's decidedly either going to be higher or lower. You'll get a clear answer. Now I've said that trying to predict mortgage rates definitively is foolish. We're only talking about probabilities today. Look, have you ever wondered if the government can just print its own currency? Then why do they have to collect taxes from us. We're going to get that answer today. Back in 1971, the U.S. economy left a system of capitalism, in fact, and embarked on a journey of creditism as defined by today's guest. Well, now we're about to leave creditism. You'll learn what is poised to replace it, and it is an AI-fueled answer. You know, to prep you with some context today, I've said it here before. But when you start talking about the enormity of a national economy, the words billion and trillion start to get thrown around a lot. A trillion seconds ago, you know how long ago that was. That takes you further back than the Roman Empire, because a trillion seconds is 31,700 years. Well, 31,700 years ago, that is just about as far back as when the plains of Europe were being roamed by Neanderthals. Yeah, that was a trillion seconds ago. Coming up on the show here, the man who wrote the book on the Pareto principle 30 years ago. That's the 80-20 principle, where 20% of your effort yields 80% of the results. We'll talk to him and learn how those insights can improve your life on a different upcoming episode.   Keith Weinhold  4:08   Here, the book Rich Dad Poor Dad was originally written by two authors. One of those two was Robert Kiyosaki. We had Kiyosaki on the show here with us in June, and by the way, the New York Post recently wrote an article, and they cited the Get Rich Education podcast in how Kiyosaki revealed on the show here that he is 1.2 billion dollars in debt. You can find that in the September 1st edition of the New York Post. That's the June 1st episode of the Get Rich Education podcast that they're citing. Well, a lot of people they don't know who the other author of Rich Dad Poor Dad is, but we're going to have her here with us on the show soon. So some really fascinating episodes coming up. Let's meet today's guest. Returning this week is one of the foremost macroeconomic minds in the world. He was this show's first ever guest nearly 12 years ago on episode seven. A prolific author, he publishes the popular video series Macro Watch at RichardDuncaneconomics.com, and he's really influential. For example, not long ago, he presented his economic policy proposals to congressional members of the House Ways and Means Committee. Hey, it's a warm Get Rich Education. Welcome back to the incomparable Richard Duncan.   Richard Duncan  5:39   Thank you, Keith. Thank you for having me back on.   Keith Weinhold  5:42   I don't know if you and the audience are ready for this. This is some perspective. It recently made news when the U.S. hit its national public debt milestone of $40 trillion. When Richard made his GRE debut here in November of 2014, it was $18 trillion. That national debt has more than doubled since you were first here, Richard.   Richard Duncan  6:07   That's right. The government has been playing probably the leading role in keeping the economy growing, and a couple of times since then has played the sole role in preventing a new Great Depression in the aftermath of the crisis of 2008 and during COVID, it's the massive government budget deficits, often more than a trillion dollars a year. Last couple of years, it's been 1.8 trillion dollars. That's been driving the economy, and whenever it needs some additional support, the Fed steps in and creates a few trillion dollars here and there, and combined they've been keeping the economy growing and, in fact, booming. And wealth has absolutely exploded as a result of the government spending and the Fed money creation. In 2008, the total wealth of all the Americans net worth $60 trillion. Now, it's tripled to $180 trillion. That that is a direct result of the government's intervention through budget deficits and paper money creation by the Fed.   Keith Weinhold  7:14   I will call that the world's least desirable investment portfolio minus 40 t. That is one way to think about it, but when you bring up interventionism, you know something I shared with the audience about a month ago, Richard. It is just remarkable to think about all the crises we've had just since 2020. We had COVID, we had Russia's invasion of Ukraine, we had Israel, Gaza. We had tariffs. Now we've got the war in Iran, and what is the result of all this? Largely due to government interventionism. Oh, both the stock market and real estate market in the U.S. are near all-time highs.   Richard Duncan  7:54   Who would have imagined? But things work very differently now than they did in the old days when money was backed by gold, and the Fed and the government played a much smaller role in the economy. It's a different world now. That was capitalism. This is creditism. Our new economic system is driven by credit growth, and whenever necessary, the government steps in with massive budget deficits, and the Fed steps in with massive money creation to make sure that credit keeps expanding and the economy keeps growing, because if credit doesn't keep expanding, if it even dips a little bit like it started to in 2009, then the whole bubble implodes and we repeat the 1930s Great Depression, probably followed by what happened in the 1940s.   Keith Weinhold  8:39   This is interesting. When you were first here 12 years ago. You talked about how society isn't so much capitalism that it's creditism, and you expounded on that. And before we're done, I know that we have now morphed into a new ism, post-creditism that Richard is going to share with us, it's fascinating. But Richard, since you were last here, the Iran War is new. It's been going on for over six months now. So I'd like to get your thoughts on that, and principally, if the Iran War is going to create lasting inflation or only a temporary energy spike. What are your thoughts?   Richard Duncan  9:20   Let's broaden this out. I know that your listeners are very interested in in real estate, and of course that's very impacted by interest rates. And interest rates are impacted, of course, primarily by inflation. So it is true that the Iran war is pushing up energy prices, and that's pushing up inflation. It's not just Iran alone. Before that, we had trade tariffs, and that's pushing up inflation. And on top of that, we've simultaneously got this extraordinary AI investment boom, and the investment by the hyperscalers is just mind-boggling. The four biggest hyperscalers-Amazon, Alphabet, Microsoft, and Meta-they're expected just the four of them to invest something close to $750 billion this year. 750 billion, just four of them. Now, to put that into perspective, the U.S. military, in one year, the most recent year, only spends half that much on procurement and research and development, roughly 320 billion. You've got these four hyperscalers spending twice as much as the U.S. military does on procurement and research and development. That is just hard to wrap your mind around, and of course, that's pushing up everything from the cost of memory chips to electrical equipment, the cost of electricity itself, power generation equipment, and all the kinds of materials that go into building data centers. So that's another source of inflation. And then there is this wealth effect that I just referred to a minute ago. Wealth has tripled from $60 trillion to $180 trillion since 2008. All that wealth is giving a lot of rich people a lot of money to spend on a very large scale, and that also is inflationary. So all of those things are inflationary, and none of them seem to be going away in the immediate future. Now, on top of that, the inflation is not the only thing that is affecting the interest rates. Other things are affecting the interest rates as well. For instance, the budget deficit this year looks like the U.S. budget deficit is going to be quite close to $2 trillion. So that will be $2 trillion of government borrowing, and this doesn't look like it's going to go down anytime soon either. President Trump is requesting $1.5 trillion for the total defense budget in fiscal year 2027, which starts in October. That's up from just $900 billion in fiscal year 2025, so that's a huge increase in military spending, which makes the percent-   Keith Weinhold  9:20   Increase plus, y   Richard Duncan  10:52   Going to keep growing, and that spending will be inflationary as well. But so the government is going to have to borrow, so the demand for money from the government is enormous, and as I've just mentioned, because of the AI boon, the hyperscalers and many of the other companies in the AI industry or related to the AI industry, they're also tapping the bond market on a very large scale. So demand for borrowing from these AI-related companies, the demand is pushing up interest rates. This is not directly related to inflation, so you've got a lot of demand for borrowing from the government and from the private sector related to artificial intelligence primarily. So that's on the demand side for money, and on the supply side, well, the United States is not making a lot of new friends these days. We seem to be losing friends pretty quickly, and many of the people who were very enthusiastic about buying American government bonds in the past are becoming increasingly reluctant to do so. Most of them still are. Most of them don't really have any viable options, but on the margin, there are fewer friendly buyers of our debt, and so fewer people willing to buy the debt also puts upward pressure on U.S. interest rates. So recently, the 30-year U.S. government bond hit a 19-year high at 5.33% That's a very high number, and this has spooked the Treasury Department. Treasury Secretary Besant has begun doing some very unusual things that suggest that he's very concerned. He has helped stop the yen from weakening by selling some euros that the U.S. government owned and buying yen. He did this to make the yen stronger, and this meant that Japan wouldn't have to sell its U.S. government bonds in order to have dollars to use to buy yen to make the yen stronger. So that was a strange move.   Richard Duncan  9:20   And then more recently, he's announced that the Treasury Department is going to start buying twice as many long-dated bonds as it has been doing. Each operation now, the Treasury Department has been buying $2 billion worth of bonds at the long end and financing it with short-term borrowing. So borrowing at the short end, the say two-year bonds, which have a much lower interest rate, and using that money to buy 10 or 30-year bonds that have a higher interest rate, in order to push up the bond prices and push down the bond yields at the long end, to try to hold down the 30-year bond yield and the 10-year bond yield, which of course directly affects the mortgage. This is beginning to seem like there's some degree of, well, let's call it perhaps not panic, but deep concern in the Treasury about how high interest rates in the U.S. are going, and just moving forward with this idea, all of these pressures, the inflationary pressures are not likely to go away anytime soon. The demand for borrowing is not going to go away anytime soon. So there's going to continue to be this upward pressure on interest rates. And I think ultimately, what we are going to see is another big round of quantitative easing from the Fed. The Fed is going to have to step back in and announce that it's going to create a great deal of money one more time, and use that money that it creates to buy government bonds to push up their price and to drive down their yield. And we shouldn't forget that already the Fed is currently printing, creating money. It launched a new program. What is it called? Reserve management purchases. This was a program they announced in December last year, where they were just going to create some money and inject bank reserves into the financial system, so that they could manage reserves at a good level, so everyone would have plenty of liquidity. Just since December, they have created $210 billion. This is kind of going under the radar, but $210 billion since December is not an insignificant amount of money.   Richard Duncan  14:49   If the budget deficit this year turns out to be 2 trillion, then that's financing 10% of the government's budget deficit, right? More than 10% So we've already got a significant amount of money creation by the Fed going on currently, and that's not enough to prevent the yields from moving sharply higher. So I think what we're going to get is another much bigger round of quantitative easing in the not too distant future, and that's going to have a lot of ramifications.   Keith Weinhold  17:00   That's a really interesting insight, and Richard, one word keeps popping into my head as we have this discussion. Okay, inflationary pressure correlates with higher interest rates, sure, but how much are these high bond yields, which flow right over to our mortgage rates, a result of an erosion in trust. I'm thinking about trust   Richard Duncan  17:24   to some degree, yes, but not overwhelmingly. The reality is, at the end of the day, there is a certain amount of money in the world that has to be invested somewhere, and that is the most important fact to understand. There is a pool of money; it keeps getting larger, and it has to go somewhere. And U.S. government bonds are considered the safest place for it to go. For instance, the United States has a very large trade deficit with the rest of the world. For the last two years, the current account deficit, which is more or less the trade deficit, has been 1.2 trillion dollars a year. It's easier to understand it as a trade deficit. That's been throwing off 1.2 trillion dollars into the surplus countries. The surplus countries sell things in the United States, countries like China and Vietnam and all the others. They sell things in the United States that they make at home. They get paid in dollars. They take their dollars back home to China and Vietnam and all the other countries, and what do they do with the dollars? They own dollars. They've got to do something with those dollars. They're getting 1.2 trillion more dollars every year. Now, the thing they do with it primarily is they buy treasury bonds with it, and so there is an inherent and growing demand for treasury bonds. You may be thinking, okay, they could take those dollars and they could convert them into euros. That's true, they could, but whoever they buy the euros from, they then own dollars, and they would need to buy U.S. dollar-denominated assets with them. The main driver behind the buying of Treasury bonds is just the fact that there are so many dollars in the world, an increasing amount of dollars outside the United States that need to be invested in U.S. dollar-denominated assets. People can lose confidence in "quote unquote, but what are they going to do with their dollars? It has to go somewhere, and so it ultimately ends up going round and round, and an enormous amount of it ends up in U.S. Treasury bonds, and that's not going to change so long as the U.S. has a very large trade deficit with the rest of the world. The rest of the world is going to keep accumulating dollars for that reason, and they're going to keep accumulating Treasury bonds for that reason.   Keith Weinhold  19:44   Well, what do these effects mean for real estate, Richard? I mean, which force you think will ultimately win for housing here with this increased inflationary pressure? Is it more of a damaged affordability problem, or do we see rising? Placement costs that continue to help float real estate values up.   Richard Duncan  20:05   Real estate prices, home prices, have not been performing very well over the last year to two. Pretty flat, unlike in prior years, immediately after COVID when they were booming. I suppose that's what we're going to continue to see for some time. If interest rates remain high, the affordability is not there. But if we do get this new round of quantitative easing, which I think is a real possibility, then that will effectively push down the interest rates, making home affordability better. And at the same time, by creating more money, that does push up asset prices across the board. So over the long run, I do believe that real estate is a very good investment, and also it can be a very good investment from the point of view of providing diversity in your portfolio. I'd like to focus in particular on it can be an inflation hedge. So, if you buy a house and use a say a 30-year fixed mortgage, and then we or a 15-year fixed mortgage to pay for a significant part of that purchase, and then we do get inflation, then the inflation eats away your mortgage. Your mortgage evaporates because of the inflation, so in that way you're somewhat protected from the risk of future inflation by having inflation destroys your debt. In other words, so that helps. So I do believe that buying houses, I think rental income is a very good investment, particularly houses on a piece of land buy the house with a fixed rate mortgage. You rent out the house, and over 10 to 15 years, the house pays for itself, and it keeps appreciating in value over time. Decade after decade, it will become increasingly valuable over the long run, and you'll have also a supply cash flow, and you'll have this inflation hedge that I just described. So I think owning rental property that is on land, I'm not so keen on buying condos. There's no limit as to how many condos can be built in the air, but there is a limited amount of land in the world, and so land is as good as gold because if gold goes up; the land will also go up for the same reasons. So I think owning rental property is a very important part of having a broadly diversified portfolio, which is usually the best thing for most people to do to have a broadly diversified investment portfolio.    Keith Weinhold  22:37   Yeah, in this era of both war and increased interventionism, yeah, we still have a resource here, real estate that is scarce, that is necessary, and is built with this basket of goods and commodities constituting that replacement cost.   Richard Duncan  22:53   I agree.   Keith Weinhold  22:55   Well, Richard and I have a lot more to talk about when we come back, including what phase of the economy that we're in post-creditism and a lot more. You're listening to Get Rich Education. Our guest is the publisher of Macro Watch, Richard Duncan. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold.   Keith Weinhold  23:12   What if you got your mortgage loans the same place I get mine? You sure can at Ridge Lending Group NMLS 42056. They provided GRE listeners with more loans than anyone because Ridge specializes in investment property. They'll help you build a long-term plan for growing your real estate empire with leverage. Start your prequal and even chat directly with President Caeli Ridge while it's on your mind. Start at ridgelendinggroup.com. That's ridgelendinggroup.com. Let me ask you something: If you've worked hard to build wealth, is your money positioned to actually support your goals? A lot of accredited investors leave capital sitting in cash because it feels safe, but inflation and missed income opportunities can quietly erode its value. Freedom Family Investments offers freedom notes for investors seeking structured income backed by real estate. It's a straightforward approach built on real assets, not speculation. In full disclosure, I'm an investor myself. What I like is that their team walks you through how it all works, so you can decide if it aligns with your portfolio and income goals. Every investment carries risk, and nothing is guaranteed. But with a track record of consistent, on-time investor payouts, they built real credibility. Go to freedomfamilyinvestments.com to book a clarity call, or text family 266866. That's family 266866.   Robert Helms  24:44   Hey everybody, it's Robert Helms of the Real Estate Guys Radio Program. So glad you found Keith Weinhold and Get Rich Education. Don't play your daydream.   Keith Weinhold  25:04   Welcome back to Get Rich Education. I'm your host Keith Weinhold. We're talking with Richard Duncan. Check out him and his work at RichardDuncanEconomics.com. So much interesting stuff has happened in the macroeconomic world since we last had him here with the Iran War, with the AI arms race heating up, and with hitting that milestone of $40 trillion in total public national debt. Which, by the way, that $40 trillion-that is more than the combined debt of Germany, Japan, France, Italy, the UK, and Canada. That's basically the entire rest of the G7 just to try to get your head wrapped around that $40 trillion number, and you know, Richard, when it comes to the government, their income and their expenses and their assets in their debt, some wonder, including me, if the government can just print its own currency, then why must they collect taxes from us?   Richard Duncan  26:04   Okay, well, to understand the answer to that question, it's necessary to understand that it wasn't always possible for the government to print its own currency. Up until 1968, 1971, the Fed was legally required to back the dollars it created with gold, and the United States had the obligation to allow other countries to convert the dollars they accumulated into U.S. gold. So up until then, that wasn't a possibility for the government to finance its spending by money printing. And so, over the centuries that preceded, the government would tax the people to obtain the money that it needs for spending. So imagine today: here we are. The government now is spending about $7 trillion a year, and its tax revenues are about $5 trillion a year. So if it suddenly said, "Okay, we're not going to tax anyone anymore, that would mean that people would have an extra $5 trillion to spend, and if the people started spending $5 trillion, we would have hyperinflation, because there's only a limited amount of industrial capacity in the United States, or even in the world for that matter. It couldn't absorb a $5 trillion of additional spending from households and businesses, so it's not that they can't technically create the money as much money as they want to pay for everything they want. The constraint is not money creation technically; it's the inflation that it would produce if they just stopped taxing everyone and just created money instead. So that's the reason they can't.   Keith Weinhold  27:46   Just slowly taper it away and give people some income tax relief. Why can't they do that?   Richard Duncan  27:52   Well, that's what they've been doing. Taxes are far lower now than they were under when President Reagan took office, and that's one of the reasons we have $40 trillion in debt.   Keith Weinhold  28:03   Okay, but that is how the income and expenses look on an annual basis, right, Richard? This is how I think of it. Like the United States basically has 5 trillion in annual income, much of it from personal tax collection, and 7 trillion in annual expenses. That's how we get to the annual deficit of about 2 trillion, which rolls into that $40 trillion of overall debt.   Richard Duncan  28:30   That's right. What you said is correct. But we would have much more than $5 trillion income from taxes had the government not reduced the tax rate so often and so radically, starting in the early 1980s under President Reagan, if taxes hadn't been cut so sharply, we wouldn't have a two-trillion-dollar budget deficit, $40 trillion of government debt. So they've already been tapering the amount that they tax by cutting tax rates very sharply over the last decades,   Keith Weinhold  29:02   I guess a lot of people, admittedly me included, haven't been thinking about it that way. Maybe because it's painful, and I do write checks to the IRS. But when we talk about this propensity for continued inflation, one component of this is what's happening with the AI arms race, and I know you've looked at this closely. You know, because one thing I think about is, well, wait, will the AI arms race actually be deflationary over time because it lowers production costs and makes us more efficient, or is it going to be inflationary because it requires enormous capital and electricity and infrastructure in the building of these data centers. So you know I can see it going either way with the AI arms race, inflationary or deflationary. But since you studied it a lot, including talking about it on macrowatch, tell us more about the AI arms race and what this all means, Richard.   Richard Duncan  29:59   So yes. On your point that you just made, in the short term, it looks like the AI boom is going to be inflationary. Yeah, it's driving up electricity prices, land prices, and all of the things that we discussed before. Everything that goes into making artificial intelligence intelligence, including memory chips, which drive up the cost of your iPhone and iPad. So it's inflationary in the short run, but over the long run, it could probably and probably will be quite disinflationary or even deflationary. I think that's several years away. Now, moving on to the next question, the AI arms race. I think it's very helpful to understand the world around us by putting it in the context of how our economic system has evolved since dollars ceased to be backed by gold. 1968, the Fed was no longer required to back dollars with gold. 1971, President Nixon said, "Sorry, Europe, we we said we would let you convert your dollars into gold, but we changed our mind and you can't. So after that, there was no longer any gold backing for the dollar, and here are a list of things that have happened as a result of that change. Our huge trade deficits couldn't have happened if the dollars were backed by gold. The huge budget deficits that we have couldn't have happened. The Fed couldn't have created trillions of dollars through quantitative easing. Inflation rate has fallen from the 1980s, from the the mid teens to well below the Fed's 2% inflation target for most of the last 20 years, and wealth in the United States has exploded, as I mentioned, from 60 trillion to 180 trillion. That wouldn't have happened if dollars had remained backed by gold because credit has exploded. Total debt or total credit, two sides of the same coin. Total debt in the U.S. It's government debt, household debt, corporate debt, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac debt, all the debt. It first went through $1 trillion in 1960. Now it's 110 trillion. So 110 times increase in my lifetime in total debt. That wouldn't have happened if dollars had remained backed by gold, and because of all of that credit expansion and the massive trade deficits we had with the rest of the world through globalization occurred, and that allowed Asia to industrialize, and Asia wouldn't be industrialized as it is now. China wouldn't be an economic superpower as it is now had dollars remained backed by gold, because it wouldn't have been able to grow through export-led growth. And so, China, instead of looking like it does today, it would look like it did in 1970, basically being a very poor third world country, and globalization has pulled hundreds of millions of people out of poverty.   Richard Duncan  32:47   They would still be in poverty had dollars remained backed by gold. The Soviet Union probably would still be around because the U.S. under President Reagan wouldn't have been able to to spend so much on the military that it bankrupted the Soviet Union trying to keep up with us, and finally, China wouldn't be the national security threat that it's become now because it wouldn't have had a trade surplus and it wouldn't have had any economic growth to speak of for the last 50 years. That's the world that we're living in now. The world we live in now is the direct result of dollars no longer being backed by gold, and to understand the world around us, you have to understand that that's the starting point. Now, coming to your question, this explosion of wealth that has been created under the system that I call creditism-we did have capitalism. It was driven by saving and investment, Capital accumulation, hence capitalism and investment that drove capitalism. That's not how our system works. Our system is driven by credit creation and consumption, and more credit creation and more consumption. That's creditism. It used to be driven by private sector credit growth, but the private sector became too heavily indebted in 2008, and they blew up, and that almost resulted in the complete collapse and bankruptcy of every bank in the United States and probably most of the banks around the world as well. So the government had to step in, and since that time, it's been government borrowing primarily.   Richard Duncan  34:17   This driven creditism and kept credit expanding with the help of the Fed, so this has been the evolution of creditism and has produced extraordinary amounts of wealth. So it's had two consequences that we need to focus in on now. For one, I've mentioned already, it turned China into an economic superpower, which is now on the verge of overtaking us, not just economically, but also technologically and militarily, it's become an extreme national security threat to the United States. But the second thing that has occurred, the creation of all of this wealth has provided the funds that have allowed a. Technological revolution to occur so quickly, this AI revolution that we're now living through, that is the direct result of the ample liquidity that has been created and flowing around the world, originating largely from the Fed's printing press and the government's budget deficits. That's created trillions and trillions and trillions of dollars of wealth that wouldn't have existed otherwise, and that wealth has gone into funding this development of data centers and the technology that's created the artificial intelligence. Now we are experiencing this AI revolution, and it's become quite apparent to everyone that whoever wins the AI arms race is going to rule the world. We're on the verge of machines becoming more intelligent than humans, and then after that point, through self-training and self-improvement, going on 24 hours a day, they're going to become exponentially more intelligent than humans very quickly, so whoever wins this race is going to have dominance of every other country in the world. So, as creditism has evolved, it has created a national security threat in China and has created artificial intelligence. And as a result of the two combined, we now have this artificial intelligence arms race with the United States that must win. That's why President Trump is calling for a 1.5 trillion dollar defense budget.   Richard Duncan  36:30   So this is one of the main themes that MacroWatch has been focused on this year. I've done a series of videos on the new defense spending boom, looking in one video at the traditional titans of defense like Lockheed Martin, RTX, Boeing, in another video looking at the new up-and-coming Silicon Valley challengers in the defense industry, companies like Andrel, Palantir, and most important of all, SpaceX. This is now the driving force in the economy. the The absolute necessity of winning this AI arms race is going to require much greater government spending on the military, and it's going to require what we're seeing extraordinary amounts of money being invested in developing artificial intelligence because whoever gets there first wins, and whoever doesn't is going to be subjugated by the winner. So that's where we are. So that brings us up to we've been discussing the change from capitalism into creditism, and we've seen how creditism has evolved from being first driven by private sector credit to later being driven by government sector borrowing and spending, now leading to this AI arms race, which I think we're now moving toward a different kind of economic system beyond creditism. So let me back up just a minute and say that economic systems are best defined by the constraints that limit what they can do. So we've been talking about capitalism. Capitalism's main constraint was the requirement that money be backed by gold, and when that constraint, when that gold-backed money constraint was removed, the constraint was gone. The economic system evolved into a different kind of economic system. Creditism has created extraordinary amounts of wealth and growth since early 1970s. This is not the first time economic systems have evolved. If you look back through history, there have been many different kinds of economic systems. They've all been defined by the constraints that binded what they could do. If you go back to hunter-gatherer economic system, that economic system was constrained because the people didn't have tools for cultivation or any way to store the food that they created for long-term storage, but once they developed that those tools and the ability to store food, those constraints were removed and they evolved into a different kind of economic system. Ultimately, into feudalism. Feudalism was an economic system that was constrained by very poor roads, so there was very little transportation. There were no banks, so no banking system or credit, and there was very limited legal social mobility.   Richard Duncan  39:28   But eventually, cities developed, and because of cities, trade flourished, and that removed the constraints that had defined feudalism. Okay, so fast forward, capitalism was constrained by gold-backed money. When gold was removed, we moved into creditism. Now here we are in creditism, late-stage creditism, and we're seeing this phenomenal expansion of artificial intelligence. So every economic system throughout history has. Had two constraints in common. There have been labor constraints, a limited labor supply, and there has been the constraint of limited human intelligence. We're now, thanks to artificial intelligence, on the verge of removing those two constraints that have limited every economic system up until today, when artificial intelligence is embedded in humanoid robots, that's going to remove the labor constraint. We will no longer have any labor constraint. Robots will be able to produce all the labor and then some that's required. So there goes the labor constraint, and when we hit superintelligence, that's going to remove the constraint of human intelligence that has bound economic systems. So those have been the two primary binding constraints on every economic system so far, and they're just now about to be removed by artificial intelligence. We're moving into a new era without intelligence constraints and without labor constraints, and this is going to radically change everything. When those constraints are removed, creditism is going to evolve into an economic system that's no longer driven by credit creation. It's going to be driven by intelligence creation, knowledge creation, or an explosion of cognition. So I call the new system that we're moving toward cognitism, because rather than being driven by credit as creditism is, it's going to be driven by exponential expansion of intelligence or cognition, and it's probably going to create undreamt of wealth, but it's going to completely change from bottom to top everything about the world and society and social relations that exist today, and that is what we're very quickly moving into over the next 10 to 20 years. That that's where we're going to go, and I believe it deserves a new name. So I've coined the term cognitism to describe this new economic system. The post-creditism world is cognitivism.   Keith Weinhold  42:12   Wow, this is massive. Ever since we met, you talked about creditism, and really, that's the economic system that we live in, not capitalism, so we're on the brink again of moving from creditism into cognitivism, because oftentimes these forces and their change are defined by having the constraints removed, and we're on the brink of removing the labor constraint and the human intelligence restraint from creditism to move us into cognitivism over the next 10 or 20 years. I'm just reviewing what you said as I'm thinking this through, Richard. Talk to us at least a little about what the ramifications are for us, just everyday people and investors with this cognitimism economic system.   Richard Duncan  43:02   It's very difficult to guess what the consequences are going to be. They're going to be not only economic, but they're going to very quickly become political, and the political consequences are difficult to guess how they will play out. But it does look like when robots can do all the manual labor, and machines can do all of the intellectual work on a much more accurately, much more rapidly, much more flawlessly than humans can. There won't be any need for humans to have work unless legislation is in place to ensure that they do, and if they don't have work, then they're going to not have any income. And if they don't have any income, they're going to start being very unhappy, and they're going to start rioting, and governments are going to begin to fall, and we don't know how that's going to play out. So there's going to have to be arrangements made to ensure that people do have enough income to benefit from all of the extraordinary wealth that could be created through limitless labor and limitless intelligence, but to work in a way that can satisfy our wildest dreams and beyond our wildest dreams is going to be a matter of restructuring the political economy, if you will, to ensure that people benefit from this technological revolution that is now speeding up.   Keith Weinhold  44:30   Yeah, I would say all we do know is we don't know and how it's going to turn out. But you know whether it's been tractors replacing horses or whether it's been the advent of the assembly line, or whether it's been the advent of the internet, people always say it's going to destroy net jobs, and historically, it really hasn't.   Richard Duncan  44:53   You're right, but the replacement of horses with automobiles didn't really work out so well for the horses.   Keith Weinhold  45:00   So, is there any way we can think about this in order to stay nimble as investors and everyday people, Richard? As we move into cognitism.   Richard Duncan  45:10   Absolutely, everyone needs to subscribe to Macro Watch, and they'll be able to follow it very closely there as I map it out as it unfolds from month to month.   Keith Weinhold  45:22   They should, and it's fascinating, and you've really been on the cutting edge of that. Tell us more about subscribing to Macro Watch, something that a lot of listeners should be interested in.   Richard Duncan  45:33   So my background is has been in finance. I started working in Hong Kong in 1986 as a securities analyst, I later on became an economist and then a strategist. I worked for the World Bank for a couple of years in Washington. I was the head of global investment strategy in London for ABN AMRO Asset Management. So my background is in finance, and I have spent most of my career living in Asia for the last 40 years, primarily in Asia. Along the way, I've written four books. The first one was the Dollar Crisis back in 2003. The most recent one was The Money Revolution in 2023. So my background is in finance. But 13 years ago, I launched Macro Watch. Macro Watch is a video newsletter. Every couple of weeks, I upload a new video. It's essentially me making a PowerPoint presentation discussing something important happening in the global economy and how that's likely to impact asset prices. So it's essentially become a compendium of the global economy. Essentially, everything that has happened in the last 13 years at the macro level that matters is discussed in these macro watch videos. For instance, there is a complete history of everything the Federal Reserve has done since it was founded in 1913. There is a complete description of government debt from the beginning, the increase in government debt and budget deficits. It explains things like how the Fed actually creates money, what are bank reserves, what is Japanese monetary policy, what is European monetary policy. All the major macroeconomic developments are described there and are available to subscribers every two weeks. They upload a new video, and so if your listeners would like to check it out, my website is richarddunkeneconomics.com. That's richarduneconomics.com, and if they'd like to subscribe, hit the subscribe button. And I'd like to offer everyone a 50% subscription discount.   Keith Weinhold  47:36   Thank you.   Richard Duncan  47:36   They'll be prompted to put in a discount coupon code if they use the discount code GRE, like Get Rich Education, they can subscribe at a 50% discount. They'll find it very affordable, and at the very least, they can sign up for my free blog while they're there, and they can follow my work that way.    Keith Weinhold  47:57   It is fascinating the AI arms race poised to have us completely change economic systems from criticism to cognitism. Richard, is there any last thing that you would like to leave us with? Whether it has something else to do with AI, maybe I didn't think about asking you, or something with the Iran war and the inflation, or anything else in the economy. Any last thought for what we should do or be aware of?   Richard Duncan  48:24   One thing, of course, I think is very important is for everyone to learn to use AI as much as they possibly can. It's easy to use, and it will teach you how to use it. And as we evolve into this new world is going to be crucial to make use of this most important tool humanity has ever had-the ability to use AI. This suddenly gives you access to all the world's knowledge. All you have to do is ask, and it will tell you in a very friendly way. So, by being able to use AI, you'll be in a much better position to survive the transition and prosper in the decade ahead.   Keith Weinhold  49:09   That is an actionable way to stay on top of it, Richard. It's been valuable as always. Thanks so much for coming back onto the show.   Richard Duncan  49:16   Thank you, Keith. I've enjoyed it.   Keith Weinhold  49:24   Yeah, keen insights from Richard as always. Yeah, the U.S. sure has been making enemies the past couple years. That could make other nations less likely to buy our debt, and then in turn, it takes higher interest rates in order to attract bond buyers. Well, that in turn increases mortgage rates. But to some extent, other nations have to buy our debt. Richard says that a bigger round of future QE is a distinct possibility. That is code for money printing. That's clearly. Inflationary, but few seem to know we've already been involved in liquidity operations since last December. Whether that's called QE or something else, it is taking more government spending to keep up with the AI race. That's inflationary too. What about that? When horses were replaced with cars. How did it work out for the horse? I don't know if that made it better or worse for the horse. Maybe horses were out of work, but then they got to live free. Will AI make that very predicament apply to humans? Nobody knows. The economic system will have moved from creditism to cognitism when the economy is no longer driven by credit creation but intelligence creation, from RichardDuncanEconomics.com, you can hit the subscribe to MacroWatch button and enter the discount code GRE for a 50% discount. Just about everything that you heard today is poised to drive mortgage rates higher, not lower. Big thanks to Macro Watch Mastermind Richard Duncan today. Next week it's a more real estate centered show. I'm your host Keith Weinhold. Don't quit your daydream.   Speaker 2  51:21   Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal, or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial, or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of Get Rich Education LLC exclusively.   Keith Weinhold  51:49   The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building, getricheduceducation.com