From Church Growth to Gospel Saturation: Author Todd Wilson

What happens when church growth becomes more about bigger buildings, larger budgets, and better programs than making disciples who make disciples? In this episode of the Mission Matters podcast, Matthew Ellison and Ted Esler talk with Todd Wilson, founder of Exponential and author of How Did We Get Here?, about the 75-year evolution of the modern church growth movement.Todd explores how the American church shifted from gospel saturation and church multiplication toward a consumer-driven model—and why the future may belong to bivocational leaders, microchurches, everyday missionaries, and simple, reproducible disciple-making movements. This candid conversation challenges pastors and missions leaders to rethink how they measure success, mobilize believers, and prepare the next generation to lead.The Mission Matters Podcast is a place to talk about the importance of our Mission as Christians. The Mission Matters is a partnership of Missio Nexus and Sixteen:Fifteen, who have a shared passion to mobilize God’s people to be a part of His mission.𝐋𝐈𝐍𝐊𝐒Get the book, How Did We Get Here?, for free!https://church-growth.org𝐂𝐇𝐀𝐏𝐓𝐄𝐑𝐒0:00 Intro0:45 Welcome and Episode Introduction1:31 Meet Todd Wilson4:30 How Did We Get Here?5:15 How the Church Growth Movement Changed10:25 The Consumer-Driven Church Flywheel13:07 Does Discipleship Happen from the Pulpit?15:04 Why Churches Have a Disciple-Making Problem20:06 What Actually Makes a Church?21:44 Why the Missional Movement Lost Momentum28:27 Passing the Torch to Younger Leaders31:30 “You Can Do It—How Can I Help?”33:51 Is the Megachurch the Future?36:06 Rethinking Success in Churches and Missions39:28 Measuring Disciple-Making and Gospel Saturation42:19 How Missionaries Reshaped the American Church43:07 Todd Wilson’s Book and Free Resources43:49 Final Encouragement