Geoffrey Cain — Steve Jobs in Exile: NeXT, Failure, Revenge and the Remaking of a Visionary

Steve Jobs was nearly bankrupt — down to his last $150 million, burning $50 million a year, with every product failing and every investor gone. Award-winning journalist Geoffrey Cain, author of Steve Jobs in Exile: The Untold Story of NeXT and the Remaking of a Technology Visionary, joins Aidan McCullen to tell the story the official Jobs narrative leaves out: the dozen years between his firing from Apple in 1985 and his triumphant return. Drawing on unbroadcast NeXT footage, new interviews and internal documents, Cain reveals the failures, the revenge and the near-misses that forged the leader who saved Apple. In this conversation, Geoffrey reveals: Why Steve Jobs was three years from bankruptcy in the early 1990s The "low-level employees" lie that made Apple sue its own co-founder Why the lawsuit backfired and handed Jobs exactly what he wanted How a Bill Gates talk about CD-ROMs accidentally named NeXT Why revenge on John Sculley — not changing the world — drove the founding of NeXT The "hero–shithead rollercoaster" every NeXT executive insisted Cain had to understand The "deep shit list" Jobs ran the company on — and the mindset shift that replaced it How George Lucas's divorce handed Jobs Pixar at a fire-sale price Why Ross Perot bet $20 million on a company with no product "Steve on a Stick" — the celebrity sales act that kept NeXT alive Chapters:  00:00 Failures Before Fame 01:03 Sponsor Message 01:36 NeXT Years Overview 02:50 Meet Geoffrey Cain 06:46 Survivorship Bias Lens 08:59 Near Bankruptcy Stakes 11:50 Fired From Apple 1985 14:37 Summer In Exile 19:11 Rival Jean-Louis Gassée 22:22 Dan'l Lewin And Education 27:32 Revenge Fuels NeXT 30:52 Apple Sues Steve Jobs 34:37 Lawsuit Backfires 36:23 Naming NeXT 39:02 Betting Careers On Steve 42:08 Pixar Fire Sale Bet 45:28 Working With Steve 46:31 Hero Shithead Rollercoaster 49:11 NeXT Talent Hierarchy 53:14 Luxury Spending Spree 58:32 Ross Perot Big Check 01:02:04 Deep Shit List Management 01:08:28 Canon Optical Disk Gamble 01:13:38 Businessland Sales Fallout 01:17:22 Wrap Up And Sponsor Find Geoffrey Cain at https://geoffreycain.net, on X at @Geoffrey_Cain and on LinkedIn (GCain). This series is brought to you by Kyndryl, who run and reimagine the technology systems that drive advantage for the world's leading businesses. Learn more about Kyndryl and the Kyndryl Institute at https://www.kyndryl.com. Subscribe to the Thursday Thought on Substack for a chance to win a copy of Steve Jobs in Exile, with thanks to Kyndryl: https://thethursdaythought.substack.com About The Innovation Show: The Thinkers50-recognised podcast where square pegs find their place in a world of round holes. Aidan McCullen hosts world-class authors, scientists and practitioners on disruption, innovation, change, transformation, leadership, AI and the ideas shaping tomorrow. About the Host: Aidan McCullen is the 2025 Thinkers50 Innovation Award recipient, keynote speaker on AI, disruption, innovation, and change, host of The Innovation Show, and author of Undisruptable: A Mindset of Permanent Reinvention (Wiley). Learn more at https://theinnovationshow.io/about-aidan-mccullen  Website: https://theinnovationshow.io Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/ie/podcast/the-innovation-show/id1148455669 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/63nFKf4bsSWo3W72gWtOsK?si=b62d9614237c4450 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/theinnovationshow LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aidanmccullen