Welcome to the Mariners Church Life Group Leader podcast. This weekly conversation is designed to equip and resource youth to build a healthy life group community that studies God's word, practices spiritual rhythms and changes the world together. Hey, life group leaders. Today Scott and I sit down with living legend, national treasure and my good friend, Pastor Eric Hurd.
We talk all things marriage coaching, having grit in ministry and spiritual warfare. Are they related? We shall see. And hey, we want to give a heads up that this podcast will be switching to a bi-weekly format going forward.
So our next episode will not be available next week but the week after. We're shifting to bi-weekly to give us more time to prepare for great interviews and fresh insights that truly equip you for leading a group. Let's tune into the show. All right, life group leaders, we have in the building today, one of our favorite people on the planet.
You say that to all of us. I might have, looking back, I might have said that to Dallas but you know what, this guy, this guy is number one. Next to my number one, Eric Hurd in my life. Oh, man.
Pastor Eric Hurd, love you like a brother man and we wanted to bring you in today to talk about three things that is really gonna apply to our life group leaders. The first one is how to have grit in ministry. You've been at Mariners for 27 years and then you spent 23 years at another big church before this. Under Chuck Swindall, right?
And so across that time, you've probably gone through peaks, through valleys of ministry. You've probably walked through some really rough patches and I feel like picking your brain today would be really helpful for our life group leaders who probably will walk through similar things leading other people to Christ, even among their groups. So how to have grit in ministry? Scott and I want to talk to you about that and what does grit look like?
When we ask you that, the word grit, what comes to mind when you think about that in terms of ministry? I think first of all, I would define it as a character trait and I've been around some incredibly gifted leaders who had incredible gift, a grift, grift. Grift, we'll get that right. And so I do believe it's a character trait and like for me, I was mentored, gosh, 52 years ago and discipled.
When I first came to Christ and I'll never forget when the pastor that discipled me said, he goes, guard your heart from cynicism because you're gonna see the underbelly of the snake in the church. And because whatever God loves, Satan hates. And so ministry, whatever you're called to, any service, any volunteerism, the enemy hates what you're gonna do, why? Because you're gonna impact lives.
So there's a spiritual war that goes on, but there's also the personal war within you. And so ministry is not easy. It never has been for me, never will be. I don't live with naivete.
So yes, I have been through the ups and the downs, you bet. You know, we've been on this Nehemiah series for weekends and in our pastor meetings, Eric Geiger, the other Eric here at Mariners. The very young. Just a young 50 year old.
I'm gonna turn 50 singing too. So young. But he had talked about, and this is actually he'll be talking about it in a future weekend about having resolve as a leader. And that's the fruit that we see, the intermingling root to the bottom is having that restlessness, having that burden belief, but also resting as a leader.
And these are not the notes that we had sent, or questions we had sent to you earlier, but could you speak on that a bit? Like what does that look like to have resolved? Why is it so important for a group leader to have that resolve in perseverance? Well, you're asking a huge question.
And that is, when you have a sense of calling, you know, somebody may come to you and say, hey, we need a life leader, you went through a rooted, we need a life leader, you have to pause and go, am I able to step into whatever's gonna come in front of me? And like for me, I'm gonna go back to the guy that discipled me, he told me he wanted me to pick a ministry verse. And I picked the one that would fit with what we're talking about today. And it's out of 1 Corinthians 1558, be steadfast, immovable, always about in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord.
The number one thing one has to have is a sense of calling that I'm serving God Almighty. This isn't just, well, nobody else will do it, I'll step in as a life leader. It is, I am willing to get into, you know, the issues of people's lives. I'm willing to lead, even though I may face personal attack, I may face personal struggle, but I'm going to lead.
And for me, that's been something I've been doing for over 50 years. And so perseverance at what God calls you into is critical for any leaders. And so many leaders fall by the wayside because they didn't sense God's call and they didn't have the grip to stay at it because it's not easy. As a life leader, you deal with every kind of issue imaginable.
You know, I've been in marriage 27 years, well, I've had the same life group for 27 years. I've led the same men's group on Tuesday morning for 27 years. And it's very emotional to me because, I mean, you just face everything. People sin and brokenness.
You have to ask people to leave a group. You have to confront things. And it is not easy, but because there's a calling. It's not about me.
You know, it's about him and what he calls me into. Now. Man, I'm fired up. And I've been here Tuesday mornings, and I have the pleasure of being in one of your men's groups now.
And yeah, you're just a tremendous leader. But man, what are some challenges that you had in those 27 years? Just, I mean, it's going to be super relatable for our life group leaders to hear this. What have you seen?
Some of the easier things you have to deal with is the overly talkative person in your group. You know, or in today's culture, you know, a wonderful thing about Mariners' churches were a multi-ethnic, multi-socioeconomic, but were also multi-political. And now, like, I had to talk to two guys in my group just recently because they were getting too political. But the problem was they're on opposite sides.
And they were getting upset at each other. So sometimes it's just confronting the kind of stuff that if you let it go, it's going to be a divisive thing in your group. So sometimes they're lighter things. Sometimes it's some very heavy things.
You know, a guy in our group that decided he wanted to change genders. And I sat down with he and his wife, and had a really open conversation about that. And unfortunately, I was ready to have that conversation, and was really able to help him. And he decided not to.
But then I remember a couple in my couples group where he announced he had been having a affair for 12 years. And it was painful. But the group walked through it with him. The husband and wife stayed in the group, even though they were separated for five years.
And so that's not easy. We had to set ground rules, you know? And so some stuff is easier. Some stuff is harder.
But you have to, the problem with most life group leaders, they're conflict diverse. Most Christians are conflict diverse. Well, you can't be with human beings and not have conflict. And here's the thing is conflicts don't go away by themselves.
So leaders have to step in to some very difficult conversations. Obviously, if they don't have wisdom in a particular area, they need to get the wisdom. But if you let things go, they fester. And because you see the average time for most life groups is not long.
And it's usually because things are not dealt with. Yeah. That's actually something that I've been praying for recently, is for God to give me the strength to have hard conversations, because we're going to come across it as life group leaders. And also, everything that you've been saying, it just reminds me of the importance of being in community.
And Scott and I were talking about this earlier, that we've witnessed some crazy things go on in our life groups. But had the people that experienced those life circumstances, had they not been a part of our group, where would they be without community? OK. That's a perfect segue into the thing of when you're isolated, you can hold anything you want.
You can believe anything you want. It's like marriage. The more you integrate in marriage, the more the conflicts and the blind spots come out. It's by God's design.
You can't hide in intimate groups. The more open your group is, the more you're going to have things where you don't agree, or certain things are said and they're frustrating. And so in a life group, I don't ever expect there won't be conflicts, and there won't be opinions. And it's just setting those ground rules.
But yeah, isolation, you don't have to deal with anything. In group, you have to deal with stuff. It's God's design. Yeah.
Matt, we deal with, as you've been talking about, marriage. You've been married for how long, Eric? Forty-five years. Forty-five years.
We've had three happy years. So not only have you been just that resilient leader in ministry, but in marriage and parenting, there must have been times when you felt like giving up and just throwing in the towel. I mean, I've been in ministry for over 20 years as well too. And it's not fair to faint of heart.
It's not easy. Leading a group, leading people through the messes that they go through. And so, I mean, can you unpack a little bit? Like, when do you, how do leaders balance of like, just, I gotta push you to do, I gotta persevere versus like, learning to lean on God's strength and his power and not just our own?
Yeah. And this is one, again, one of those ones where it takes incredible discernment to determine what is God's part, what is mine? And that's where my relationship with the Holy Spirit and him revealing things of things I need to step into and I need to do conversations I have to have versus God, you're the only one that can change the heart. God, you're the only one that can reveal sight to the blind.
Because it's very interesting in, you know, St. Corinthians where, you know, Paul says, you know, the, the prince of the power, the Arab blinds, the eyes of the unbelieving, not the unbeliever, unbelieving. There are people in the church that don't see things. And so again, what is God's part?
What is mine? I wish I had, you know, a set thing. Well, here's your part. Here's my, not my part.
I know it's preparation. It's prayer. It's, it's facilitating the discussion in the group. You know, it's, it's making sure that we have the rhythms, you know, of life, you know, prayer and evangelism.
And so there's things I know I'm supposed to do, but man, there was so much I can't do that God's got to do. Amazing, incredible. We talked a bit about marriage and actually want to change topics a bit to your personal ministry here at Mariners. So you've held a lot of positions in your ministry career.
One of them, including- You said I was fired? No. Well, I want to touch on one of those things which was IT Director, which I know you're most proud of. But one of the most incredible things that you do now is you do marriage counseling at Mariners.
And so I wanted to just hear your story on sitting down with couples and what you've helped people go through. Yeah. So I do like to clarify. I am not a counselor, so I don't have an MFT degree nor am I a psychologist.
But I would call myself more of a marriage coach, but very biblical. And like I actually got to put together the marriage philosophy here based on one verse. And it really comes down to when Jesus said that Moses used to give a certificate of divorce and God would permit it. He didn't want it, but he'd permit divorce.
And then he said why? The hardness of men's hearts. And my marriage, I was a horrible husband at first and I had to learn what it was to level woman, to honor a woman, to serve a woman. And because submission, you know, or you know, headship I should say is not dominance, it's servitude.
And I learned because I read everything I could on marriage. I interviewed couples who have been married 30, 40, 50 years and I went to counseling and intensives. And out of that God said, now I want you to step into other couples' lives and I've been doing that for a little over 40 years. And what I have found is I've never seen a marriage not work if two couples humble themselves.
If you do a marriage right, there's not an issue I've ever dealt with in marriage where I go, nope, get, you know, God's wisdom is there. But a lot of people can't, they don't have any perspective. In fact, I'd say the majority, if not 90% of the couples I deal with are isolated. They think they're the only crazy couple that's dealing with their stuff.
I go, no, you're not. And then the other part of it is, is it the reason a lot of marriages don't get healthy, they're building it on sand. What I mean is usually by the time somebody cries out, you know, my marriage is struggling or whatever, there is so much resentment and bitterness. Remember in the sermon amount at the end, on chapter seven at the end, he says, don't build your house upon the sand for when the storms of life come, the house is destroyed, that builds your house upon the rock for when the storms of life come.
Well, marriage is one of the hardest things we do and there are storms. But if it's built off of resentment and bitterness, which usually happens when couples don't resolve the conflicts in the marriage, it's destroyed. And I get it when they're hating each other, they're threatening each other. And so what I do is simply what Jesus directs, biblical reconciliation.
I get both of them to write confession letters, very without blaming, minimizing or excusing. And that's what has to start. You have to have a foundation from which to build the marriage they don't have. And so I've been doing that for decades.
And the success is not because I'm so brilliant. The success is on their work and their humility. Like I've done now 18 remarriages, couples that divorced, but didn't need to. And so basically we sat down and we reconciled the sins of co-mission, what they did to hurt each other and the sins of omission, what they didn't do that would have healed their marriage.
I just want to affirm you because I was walking past the chapel last week and it was late in the day. And I looked down the chapel hall and I see Eric hurt, dressed in a nice suit. And I looked around, there weren't any memorial signs up. There wasn't anything like closed event, you know, a way to see that it was a closed event.
But I saw that it was a small gathering of people. And it was a recommitment of a marriage of a couple that I know, of the guy that I know. And I know it meant the world to him that you were able to walk through that with them. So thank you.
I can't imagine the amount of lives you touched even beyond the couple. Like the kids or the relatives. So when you help the marriage, you know, because a lot of times in ministry we don't look at the legacy. Whether it's leading a life group, you know, when you lead a life group and you see a life change and change and transform, it's transformed for the rest of their lives.
And the impact they will have on the people around them, it's the proverbial, you know, pebble in the lake. It has a rippling effect. Same thing with a marriage. When you see a marriage reconciled, come back together.
It's just, it's very emotional for me. When I, you know, come to church and I'll see a couple that I know were done and they humbled themselves, reconciled, built the skills they didn't have. You just go, that impacts the kids and the grandkids. It's their whole future.
So that's why you stepped into the difficult things. It's not about you. It's about what God is doing and the legacy that they're going to have. Yeah.
Well, Eric, let's pivot a little bit. You had mentioned this earlier about we sometimes don't see what is happening in the spiritual realm. You know, pause, pause, pause, pause, pause, talk about it for individuals, not against flesh and blood, but against the spiritual forces in this world. And so I know you're involved with some of, with overseeing a prayer in ministries and, and so I wanted to kind of talk a little bit about like the spiritual realm.
Like how would you define spiritual warfare? Yeah. By the very first word, it's spiritual. So it's so interesting, you know, how much emphasis we put on the physical body, but we're actually spiritual beings that happen to encompass a physical body.
This body lasts, it's, Paul calls it a tent. And so we put so much value on the physical and what we see, what we hear, but, but, you know, all the time there, there is a spiritual realm that we have to stay aware of, whether it's the angelic or the demonic. Yeah, there's good, there's evil, there's God, there's Satan. And like for me, I was fortunate enough to be trained in spiritual warfare and deliverance ministry.
And so spiritual warfare is just a recognition that there is a spiritual battle going on. Again, whatever God loves, Satan hates and how you ascertain if you're within a spiritual battle is, is great discernment. That's why we have a thing called the Well at Mariners, which is, is immersive prayer of three godly men, if you're happy to be a man, three godly women who ascertain is your struggle. What, you know, maybe you've hit the wall and maybe you've got this stronghold, whatever it might be.
You know, how is the enemy involved in it? And I, I use a word that's basically Greek word. It's an English translation of Greek word. And that is demon in Zimai, which is demonized.
I don't use the word, you know, like, like I get the question, can a Christian be demon possessed? I said, it's the wrong question. Can a Christian be demonized? Absolutely.
And, but it's a spectrum like all of us have been lied to and we, and we held on to lie. That's demon in Zimai. You know, all of us have been deceived or have felt shame because Satan is the great accuser of the brethren. And when you feel that shame, that's Satan.
And it's a little higher level demon than it's my, but there are times where a demon has to be cast off or out of a person. And I will just say, you know, I've never cast a demon out of anything other than a Christian. And because one thing I tell Christians is demons only have as much authority as you give them. So my job is to ascertain what is the portal?
What is the opening of a person that's made in their lives that might have given that, that demon access, if you will. And that's, by the way, that's in Ephesians 4, 27, you know, don't let the sun go down on your anger and don't give the devil an opportunity. And the word opportunity is a Greek word, topos, which means don't give them any land. Don't give them any beachhead.
And, but Christians do. And there's a number of portals or openings by which demons attack people. How do you know if someone is under spiritual attack or if it's someone that's just making poor decisions and choices or just the influences of this world that's coming out as? How do you know that?
There's two questions you're asking there. On one hand, how do you discern? Much like when I, I do, when I meet with a couple whose marriage is blown open, I do simple marriage assessment. And I ask a number of questions to try to get at the systemic issues that are impeding a healthy marriage.
No different in, in spiritual warfare is you, there's questions I will ask to find out what's been going on in the person's life and what have they opened themselves up to. And, and so once that assessment is made, then you, you figure out, okay, what needs to happen here? And, and, and the second part of your question, naivete is not an answer to spiritual warfare. You know, when, when Paul, when Peter says, be sober in spirit, in other words, you better take this seriously.
Be on the alert. Be aware. Yes. And, and so as I said, when Peter said, can you take you for the right thing in your, and what are you kind of caring for yourself?
Well, when Peter said,CS doesn't need to go in the Lect solution because his kilograms are paperless. And so how do you lecture his type? And so by all of you know, Jesus was never connected into great, Herbert, and had had seen him, or had ever heard of me that you know, you've never told them it's not in need. uffs.
you mentioned that one way to identify spiritual warfare is through discernment, or that is the way to identify it. I imagine that someone probably can't identify it on themselves, they don't have the ability to discern when they're being spiritually attacked themselves. Another reason why you need community around you to pour into you, and tell truth into you. So what practical steps can a group take to stand firm together?
Should they just reach out to you via email? Is this something that, you know, I know God that Jesus has given them the authority to cast out demons themselves, but what do groups do practically? It's really interesting that you say that because it kind of leads into maybe this is something where we put on just a training in basic fundamentals of spiritual warfare for our life group leaders. You know, that isn't crazy, it's not weird, you're not going to, you know, because again, most people have not been truly equipped.
Now, we have a good thing out of rooted, which is the stronghold section, but I think there's more things that we could piggyback off of or leverage off of from rooted to understand how to identify spiritual warfare. You know, in other words, is this a spiritual battle? And also to do a very simple assessment because I do it all the time and it's simply because I was trained to do it. And but it's it's way, I try to make spiritual war not I.
I think we've got to keep spiritual warfare at a level that all of us can reach. Like I trained my kids about spiritual warfare because I knew being a pastor that they would be attacked. And so we've had open conversations and they have been attacked, but they knew what to do. Yeah, because again, demons only have as much authority as you give them.
If you don't know your authority, and the fact that you have the keys of the kingdom and that you can speak against the enemy, you know, then you're in a very vulnerable place. And I think we talked about this before that. Christians today, typically under, I don't want to say under appreciate, but under recognize spiritual warfare or they over sometimes people overestimate it or is it underestimate the term on the under estimating what the enemy's doing? Yeah, because they don't, you know, like again, Christians have felt, well, you know, greater is me, he that is in me than he that is in the world.
Yeah, but why did Peter say be sober and be on the alert? Because the enemy's going to attack you. And Paul talked about it numerous times where he was buffeted from going to a place from the enemy. And you know, he talked when he says I wrestled out against flesh and blood, that's the apostle Paul.
He's one of the toughest guys I've ever met. And he's going, dude, I'm battling. Why wouldn't we battle? And again, when we cave to things, the great temptations in the world, the lesser, the flesh, the less to the eyes, the most of the pride of life, the enemy goes, we got you.
You know, like I remember, he used to be our senior pastor. Did you know that? Yeah, I love that man. But I will, like for me, I love when he said one of the greatest battles for us in Orange County is the disease of affluenza.
If you're steeped in materialism and the things of this world, then the enemy goes, gotcha. Because what are you going to do? You're just going to be pursuing money, pursuing stuff, pursuing pleasure. So he just waits until he's gotcha.
And again, I think naivete is the biggest risk for any Christian. It's not how I see the direct disobedience, it's just naivete. Yeah. Yeah, we talked about a lot of things with you from marriage relationships to spiritual warfare, to persevering and grit in ministry.
And Eric, I just want to say like, you're an encouragement. You really are pastor to pastors, a leader to leaders, and you practice what you preach. A funny thing, we have our monthly staff meeting, we celebrate all the values, staff values. And one of the values.
The story of Jesus, great storytellers. And we have this bobblehead that looks like, well, it is you, right? It's really it is you. That's the trophy for that value.
That's right. That's the trophy for that value. And you share such incredible stories of life change happening in the lives of our congregation members. And I was telling Sam recently, this like, how does Eric tell these type of stories?
How does he get to those situations where that happens? Help us. Help us. How does that happen?
You ask something of God every day, right? What is that? It's what are we up to? Like I wake up every morning and I'm just I'm excited because I'm looking for what God wants me to do.
I mean, I am an eight type schedule guy, but I leave margin in my life for whatever God wants me to step into. And that's big to me. And so I start off every day that way. And the second thing is, God, is there anyone you want me to share my faith with?
Because I have a passion for evangelism and he just brings people into my life. And I was mentored that way. And so I've been doing it for a lot of years. And honestly, and it's a very emotional thing because I'm not worthy that God would ever use me.
I'm blown away that he does. And but you know, the challenge I've put to any life group leader is when you say yes to stepping in, I don't care if it's rooted or a life group or whatever, you're stepping into this unbelievable opportunity to be involved in people's lives. And the greatest stories comes out of people's lives and stepping into them and listening and watching what God's doing in their lives. And the more I'm sensitive to that, like it's no wonder John the Baptist said, he must become greater and greater.
I must become less and less. When I'm way more interested in what God is doing and what God is saying, how God is acting. Man, I see things. I wouldn't see otherwise.
It's not about me. So the reason the story's come is that I just step into whatever God tells me to. And when you do that, it's messy. It's risky.
But man, it is so worth it. And so anybody step into the life group, you're stepping into the mess because people's lives are messy. Your life is messy. And so, you know, like to me, it's just a privilege to step into people's lives.
Why, Eric, it's a privilege to serve with you. Would you just bless our life group leaders, just bring a blessing over them as a call to persevere and to press on? And Father, I'm so grateful for a church that actually believes that community is essential because it is. God, we don't grow.
We don't strive. We don't, we're not rebuked. We're not encouraged unless we're close to people. And so, God, I'm so grateful for every life group leader that might listen to this podcast.
God, would you bless them with a gift of discernment? Would you bless them with a resilient heart, with a sense of calling to shepherd the people of God? And that is a immense privilege. And God, it is hard.
And it is messy. And there are so many times that we want to quit. But God, we are steadfast and we're immovable. We do it for you.
It's not about us. It's not about our comfort or discomfort. It's not about our encouragement or discouragement. It is about what you're doing and a stepping into it.
And so, bless each of these life group leaders. May they know your joy. As Paul said, make it your goal goal to please him. If we can put a smile on your face, then it's been a great day or a great life group.
And so, thank you again. Jesus. Amen. Hey, gentlemen.